Jade Arms/Armor, Atypical Materials?

[ThinkMinty]

For the sake of my curiosity, how does Jade stack up as a primary material for weapons and/or armor?

And on a related but separate note, if there's any unusual weapon materials you know about or recall, that'd be neat to hear about.

[Yora]

I think the Maori had clubs made from rock, which were short and very thick. Other than that, rocks and minerals are very poorly suited for such purposes.
Another exception would of course be blades made from flint or obsidian, which can be amazingly sharp but still break quite easily, so they are generally very small, which makes them both stiffer and easier to replace.

Regarding armor, I know that there were some cases where it was made from plant fibers woven together similar to ropes or baskets. Those are both cheap and very effective, while being relatively light and not getting too hot.

[Ravens_cry]

You could make a mere club (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_%28weapon%29), as mentioned, and you could probably make a jade version of Macuahuitl (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuahuitl), the wooden and obsidian 'swords' of Mesoamerica. Spears, javelins and arrows tipped with jade heads are also very possible. As for unusual materials, paper armour! They tested this on Mythbusters and it, if anything, was better than its metal contemporaries.

[Yora]

Seems like mere are actually very beefy daggers and not clubs. They just have to be that wide and thick to give the material enough strength to not snap on impact. And the Maori also did not use metal armor, which nonmetal blades generally can't deal with.
A Macuahuitl with jade blades could be made, but I think without the incredible sharpness of obsidian it would not be nearly as effective, and perhaps not worth the effort. But that would depend on what other options you have for making weapons and what kind of protection you will have to deal with.

[Fragenstein]

They tested this on Mythbusters and it, if anything, was better than its metal contemporaries.

I can only imagine how much historians hate reality shows.

[Yora]

I am pretty sure that this isn't what they said. The result was that paper does offer considerable protection and durability that makes it a viable material for armor that can be an alternative to metal under some conditions.

[TheThan]

The problem with stone weapons is that they’re remarkably fragile. Flint and chert are fragile, although they can make amazingly sharp blades. Even the macuahuitl is primarily wood, with obsidian blades inserted to make it sharp enough to get the desired result.

Iron and steel are preferred because they’re strong enough and light enough to withstand the rigors of combat. If your weapon shatters against a shield, armor or a fleshy human body, congratulations, you’re now weaponless and are probably not going to last too much longer.

[Ravens_cry]

I am pretty sure that this isn't what they said. The result was that paper does offer considerable protection and durability that makes it a viable material for armor that can be an alternative to metal under some conditions.
Oh, it did have disadvantage, but it was lighter, offered comparable protection against slashing and piercing weapons, and would be a lot cheaper. It was perfect armour for peasant levees that didn't fight for long before going back to their fields, in my opinion.

[Flickerdart]

It was perfect armour for peasant levees
I'll be dammed if I let this typo slide. :smalltongue:

[snowblizz]

For the sake of my curiosity, how does Jade stack up as a primary material for weapons and/or armor?

And on a related but separate note, if there's any unusual weapon materials you know about or recall, that'd be neat to hear about.

Honestly I'm not sure jade was ever used as a for real weapon. I attended an exhibition at the Fields Museum in Chicago featuring Chinese jade objects a few years ago and IIRC it suggested the jade weapons were ceremonial, I want to say they were gravefinds, probably replicating the greenish tinge of old bronze. It was after all, a precious stone of sorts, and always in short supply.

I've seen gold weapons in a museum in Lima, Peru as well. Maces, morningstars and such. And I suspect the same deal, gold would be heavy, but the spikes wouldn't hold up for long if actually used.

What would we classify as unusual though? Obsidian wasn't exactly unusual for the South American peoples. And people have generally used various natural materials, skins and bones pertinent to their specific environment, sharktooths, shark skin, rhino skin etc. Spines from certain fishes, and I'm trying to recall some type spear with lots of sharp points from somewhere in the pacific. It would probably not be unusual for them. Same way an elkskin buffcoat wasn't unusual for 1600-1700 Swedish soldiers.

[Fragenstein]

Oh, it did have disadvantage, but it was lighter, offered comparable protection against slashing and piercing weapons, and would be a lot cheaper. It was perfect armour for peasant levees that didn't fight for long before going back to their fields, in my opinion.

That weight savings ended up being a HUGE advantage when fighting in a commonly muddy terrain where heavier armors would render a soldier immobile. There are also reports of iron armor suffering from corrosion. I'm not so sure about that -- it would have to be pretty thin to pick up anything other than surface oxidation.

I just never like seeing Mythbusters being presented as anything of an authority... on anything...

"Well. This culture reportedly took their best engineers, working off of generations of experience, and allowed them decades to perfect their designs. But Jamie and I are really good with squibs and wire harnesses. So that's pretty much the same, right?"

Have I heard right in that some of those mere 'clubs' were dense enough and strong enough to have been passed down family lines without breaking in combat? I'm guessing they were used more against unprotected skulls than they were against hard armour.

[Yora]

You could say we're using a special kind of pottery for armor now. Ceramic armor plates are not ordinary clay fired in a kiln, but the principle is the same.

You could call modern ballistic armor "ceramic brigandine". :smallbiggrin:

[DavidSh]

I wonder about the jade axes from Neolithic Europe. Were they just art/prestige objects in imitation of flint axes, or were they useful tools in themselves?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Most historical Jade weapons were probably ceremonial, but that's because most of the surviving ones come from post-Stone Age societies.

Jade tools probably were used in the Stone Age. Its not like everywhere has flint. Museum curators are often too zealous in claiming that decorative artefacts are purely ceremonial (remember that in Archaeologist; 'Ceremonial' means "I don't know what its for"). Purely ceremonial weapons are very, very, rare.


a lot cheaper. It was perfect armour for peasant

Paper was not cheap. Its cheaper than parchment but only because you don't have to raise animals for it.

By the time Paper was popular in Europe, Peasant levies weren't a major part of the military manpower pool.


[Jade] probably replicating the greenish tinge of old bronze.

I find that to be an unlikely bit of extra speculation. Jade was sacred enough on its own, it looking like badly maintained bronze was probably irrelevant. Unless there's a source from the period that specifically compares Jade to weathered bronze I can't buy it. Qin dynasty bronze weapons were specially treated so they didn't weather anyway and that process might have been available earlier.


I've seen gold weapons in a museum in Lima, Peru as well. Maces, morningstars and such. And I suspect the same deal, gold would be heavy, but the spikes wouldn't hold up for long if actually used.


They would have been a copper-gold alloy. The Andean Civilisations (most of whom ended up in the Inca Empire but calling them Inca is inaccurate for most of their history) had probably the best metallurgy of bronze and gold in the world, mostly due to them never adopting iron so that extra focus went into things the rest of the world never bothered with. Copper-gold alloys were used as alternatives to bronze in early Old World Bronze Age Civilisations so gold weapons might have been used in the Andes. If those weapons are high gold content then they're probably ceremonial, but the Andeans are known for composite materials that had a pure gold outer layer and inner layers of mostly copper. Such a weapon would look like pure gold while being almost as good as a bronze weapon.

A gold weapon is likely ceremonial, but you can't say for certain based on the materials alone. Weight, construction and shape are a much better judge of whether or not something was actually usable.

[Cikomyr]

I know that some people are irrationaly scared of anything related to Jade Helmet..

[ThinkMinty]

I know that some people are irrationaly scared of anything related to Jade Helmet..

That's because fearmongering means ratings, and ratings means more more lettuce in your salad bowl.

[Broken Crown]

the Andeans are known for composite materials that had a pure gold outer layer and inner layers of mostly copper. Such a weapon would look like pure gold while being almost as good as a bronze weapon.

This inspires me to wonder: Would that be a valid method of preventing the oxidation of a copper weapon, or would the extra expense of the gold and the alloying process make it not worth the trouble?

[factotum]

This inspires me to wonder: Would that be a valid method of preventing the oxidation of a copper weapon, or would the extra expense of the gold and the alloying process make it not worth the trouble?

There are far cheaper metals you can alloy copper with to have a similar effect--for example, a few percent tin will give you bronze, and we know that was heavily used for weapons and armour a few thousand years ago.

[Ravens_cry]

There are far cheaper metals you can alloy copper with to have a similar effect--for example, a few percent tin will give you bronze, and we know that was heavily used for weapons and armour a few thousand years ago.
Gold has the advantage of being available in a native form, so you don't need to do any of that refining stuff, and how available tin was varies by geology. One possible reason for the Bronze Age collapse was a disruption in long distance trade made tin hard to get for the regions that had copper.

[BannedInSchool]

One possible reason for the Bronze Age collapse was a disruption in long distance trade made tin hard to get for the regions that had copper.
Oi, that reminds me of one "theory" that a lot of European/Mediterranean Bronze Age copper was mined in Michigan, or something like that.

[Ravens_cry]

Oi, that reminds me of one "theory" that a lot of European/Mediterranean Bronze Age copper was mined in Michigan, or something like that.

That's . . . different.:confused:

[BannedInSchool]

That's . . . different.:confused:
No aliens involved, just the Minoans sailing across the Atlantic, IIRC.

[georgie_leech]

No aliens involved, just the Minoans sailing across the Atlantic, IIRC.

Uh... Okay. Source? It's not exactly a trip down the river.

[BannedInSchool]

Uh... Okay. Source? It's not exactly a trip down the river.
Some History Channel show. :smallwink: That's why I put "theory" in quotes. Sorry, verbally it would have been more apparent how little I regarded it as a legitimate theory. It might have been in the series with the "It's the Knights Templar" guy. Heh, he did disprove some claims, though. "Sorry, this isn't a petrified head, just carved sandstone", and "Sorry, this is just a natural geologic formation, not a huge wall built by prehistoric giants."

Haha. Google rather quickly comes up autocompleting "Minoans mining copper in Michigan", and it was that show, America Unearthed, if you dare do a search yourself. :smallbiggrin: One article I see debunking that episode (http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/review-of-America-unearthed-s01e03-great-lakes-copper-heist) and the comments mention pre-Columbian copper use in North America, and now that is an interesting subject I know nothing about.

[TheThan]

Uh... Okay. Source? It's not exactly a trip down the river.

I’ve heard that same thing too. It was on some sort of searching for Atlantis documentary. They were saying that Homer got the legend of Atlantis from the Egyptians who got it from the Minoians which traveled to south America and traded with the ancient aztechs/Icanans/Olmecs or some such ( I dunno which south American Civilization, pick one). Apparently from what they said, they actually traveled back to Minoans via wicker canoes for more trade.

Yeah it didn’t sound any more convincing on the show either.

[georgie_leech]

Some History Channel show. :smallwink: That's why I put "theory" in quotes. Sorry, verbally it would have been more apparent how little I regarded it as a legitimate theory. It might have been in the series with the "It's the Knights Templar" guy. Heh, he did disprove some claims, though. "Sorry, this isn't a petrified head, just carved sandstone", and "Sorry, this is just a natural geologic formation, not a huge wall built by prehistoric giants."

Haha. Google rather quickly comes up autocompleting "Minoans mining copper in Michigan", and it was that show, America Unearthed, if you dare do a search yourself. :smallbiggrin: One article I see debunking that episode (http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/review-of-America-unearthed-s01e03-great-lakes-copper-heist) and the comments mention pre-Columbian copper use in North America, and now that is an interesting subject I know nothing about.

Heh, fair enough. As an avowed member of the Society of People who Think that Names Should Mean Something, no wonder I'd miss it.

[Ravens_cry]

I could see maybe a one off being possible, The Ra II reached the New World, going one way at least, but regular trade? I don't see it.

[snowblizz]

Some History Channel show.

Then it was aliens. On History Channel it is *always* aliens. It should be called Aliens Did It Channel.

[Vinyadan]

Swords made out of wood (I think) with shark teeth on the sides in the Pacific.

Wooden cannons in the Far East.

Exploding armour (contemporary).

I have heard that sea shells can get pretty sharp, but I never heard of actual military use.

[BannedInSchool]

I could see maybe a one off being possible, The Ra II reached the New World, going one way at least, but regular trade? I don't see it.
There was one theory, this time I think a real one :smallsmile:, that North America may have been populated during the Ice Age from the Atlantic with boats going along the ice sheet, rather than just Asia with the land bridge. An annoying problem with that is that any coastal villages from that time of lower sea levels would now be underwater, making finding evidence of boats that could have done it difficult. That one's based on similarities between spear points in France and the Clovis spearhead, IIRC. Argh, now I can't remember if genetic evidence supports or refutes it. I think maybe supports that.


Then it was aliens. On History Channel it is *always* aliens. It should be called Aliens Did It Channel.
It's not always aliens. Sometimes it's the Free Masons and Knights Templar. Or Bigfoot. OMG, maybe the Free Masons were founded by alien Bigfoots! :smalleek:

[Ravens_cry]

There was one theory, this time I think a real one :smallsmile:, that North America may have been populated during the Ice Age from the Atlantic with boats going along the ice sheet, rather than just Asia with the land bridge. An annoying problem with that is that any coastal villages from that time of lower sea levels would now be underwater, making finding evidence of boats that could have done it difficult. That one's based on similarities between spear points in France and the Clovis spearhead, IIRC. Argh, now I can't remember if genetic evidence supports or refutes it. I think maybe supports that.

That would be certainly more plausible than the Minoan scenario, as they'd have the ice sheet to provide a point of reference.


It's not always aliens. Sometimes it's the Free Masons and Knights Templar. Or Bigfoot. OMG, maybe the Free Masons were founded by alien Bigfoots! :smalleek:
Or Nazi's! Nazi Bigfoot Aliens founded the Free Masons! With Time Travel!

[snowblizz]

It's not always aliens. Sometimes it's the Free Masons and Knights Templar. Or Bigfoot. OMG, maybe the Free Masons were founded by alien Bigfoots! :smalleek:
Always aliens. Free Masons, aliens. Knights Templar, aliens. Bigfoot, aliens. Yup exactly so, Free Mason Knight Templar Bigfoot Aliens. Always aliens.

Even the Nazis. That's how they have a moonbase, they are really tiny grey men in robotsuits. That's why they never found the Adolf and why they were trying to flee to South America, because the Maya-Incan-Aztec temples are teleportation/spaceship landingpads (it totally makes sense! aliens!) and they were going home to plot revenge against the alien lizardpeople from under the southpole who won.

And that's not even the craziest I've seen said on Aliens Did It channel.

[TheThan]

There was one theory, this time I think a real one :smallsmile:, that North America may have been populated during the Ice Age from the Atlantic with boats going along the ice sheet, rather than just Asia with the land bridge. An annoying problem with that is that any coastal villages from that time of lower sea levels would now be underwater, making finding evidence of boats that could have done it difficult. That one's based on similarities between spear points in France and the Clovis spearhead, IIRC. Argh, now I can't remember if genetic evidence supports or refutes it. I think maybe supports that.

As with anything else, actually proving any of this is the hard part. The Clovis point spearhead idea for instance is not terribly hard to debunk.


It's not always aliens. Sometimes it's the Free Masons and Knights Templar. Or Bigfoot. OMG, maybe the Free Masons were founded by alien Bigfoots! :smalleek:


Always aliens. Free Masons, aliens. Knights Templar, aliens. Bigfoot, aliens. Yup exactly so, Free Mason Knight Templar Bigfoot Aliens. Always aliens.

Even the Nazis. That's how they have a moonbase, they are really tiny grey men in robotsuits. That's why they never found the Adolf and why they were trying to flee to South America, because the Maya-Incan-Aztec temples are teleportation/spaceship landingpads (it totally makes sense! aliens!) and they were going home to plot revenge against the alien lizardpeople from under the southpole who won.

And that's not even the craziest I've seen said on Aliens Did It channel.

It’s great material to mine for RPGs though. In fact, I think I’m going to start doing just that.

[Closet_Skeleton]

There are far cheaper metals you can alloy copper with to have a similar effect--for example, a few percent tin will give you bronze, and we know that was heavily used for weapons and armour a few thousand years ago.

Bronze oxidates. Brass doesn't but is rubbish for weapons.

The Chinese had a weird technique for stopping Bronze weapons from Oxidating that was applied to some of the Terracotta army weapons, but its lost now.


There was one theory, this time I think a real one :smallsmile:, that North America may have been populated during the Ice Age from the Atlantic with boats going along the ice sheet, rather than just Asia with the land bridge. An annoying problem with that is that any coastal villages from that time of lower sea levels would now be underwater, making finding evidence of boats that could have done it difficult. That one's based on similarities between spear points in France and the Clovis spearhead, IIRC. Argh, now I can't remember if genetic evidence supports or refutes it. I think maybe supports that.

Its called the Solutrean hypothesis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean_hypothesis).

Genetic evidence refuted it. Could have happened on a very small scale but that would be conjecture.

It was a decent idea but didn't hold up.


As with anything else, actually proving any of this is the hard part. The Clovis point spearhead idea for instance is not terribly hard to debunk.

Its not debunk-able. It was an actual archaeological hypothesis, not a von Daniken or Graham Hancock style urban legend based on factual mistakes so it needs falsifying rather than debunking. That Clovis points are closer to certain European points in design than they are to points from Siberia is just a fact of comparison. Without any other evidence to back it up, 'coincidence' becomes the most likely explanation.

Minoans mining copper from America is equally plausible, but is a useless theory that doesn't actually explain anything. There were plenty of copper sources around the Mediterranean (it was Tin that was really rare, but copper was still high value) and we don't have any actual detail about how much copper was being mined from where and used where-ever to say "there was a mysterious copper gap that needs explaining".

According to Greek sources the Phoenicians got as far as a place they called Thule and possibly a place beyond that they (unimaginatively) called "Ultima Thule". Thule could have been Iceland or Greenland which would mean that Ultima Thule could have been America, but its more likely that Thule was Scandinavia or Shetland and that Utlima Thule is only the Faroes or at most Iceland.

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, there's only so many ways to make a good blade of stone, so it's not too surprising there would be similarities. The laws of physics are the laws of physics.

[Bulldog Psion]

Does this count as atypical enough?

http://www.forensicfashion.com/1840KiribatiWarrior.html

These folks wore woven coconut fiber armor and used clubs and spears edged with shark's teeth, apparently used with a ripping, slashing motion. As noted in one of the accounts here, that large panel rising behind the head is because the ladies of the tribe stood to the rear, hurling stones at the enemy, and that panel is to prevent poorly-aimed stones from knocking the brains out of their own guys. :smallsmile:

It's not rock, but it's weird and kind of colorful.

Edit:

Here's an old photo of a chap actually wearing one, though it's an old one in fairly bad repair.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/45/f1/2f/45f12f3cd811a07d24d1490a8a220761.jpg

[factotum]

Bronze oxidates.

Iron rusts, and I hadn't noticed that stopped it being used for weapons and armour. :smallwink:

[Closet_Skeleton]

Iron rusts, and I hadn't noticed that stopped it being used for weapons and armour. :smallwink:

:smallconfused:
I have no idea what point you think anyone was trying to make?

You seemed to be claiming that bronze didn't oxidate in the same way that copper-gold alloys wouldn't, which is obviously false. Nobody said anything about materials susceptible to oxidation being bad for weapons (its a disadvantage of course but is always a minor one in the face of other factors).

[Broken Crown]

Iron rusts, and I hadn't noticed that stopped it being used for weapons and armour. :smallwink:

Given that the question he was answering was about protection from oxidation, rather than suitability for weapons, that's true, but kind of irrelevant.

--

Edit: Ninja'd

[TheThan]

Its not debunk-able. It was an actual archaeological hypothesis, not a von Daniken or Graham Hancock style urban legend based on factual mistakes so it needs falsifying rather than debunking. That Clovis points are closer to certain European points in design than they are to points from Siberia is just a fact of comparison. Without any other evidence to back it up, 'coincidence' becomes the most likely explanation.


I agree with you here. Until the theory can be proven, it’s just a theory. Debunk was a poor choice of words.

[snowblizz]

You seemed to be claiming that bronze didn't oxidate in the same way that copper-gold alloys wouldn't, which is obviously false.

While in said gold museum I seem to recall mentioned that South American (non pure) gold objects would get a patina unlike pure gold exactly because they were mixed up with other metals.

[ThinkMinty]

Some History Channel show. :smallwink: That's why I put "theory" in quotes. Sorry, verbally it would have been more apparent how little I regarded it as a legitimate theory. It might have been in the series with the "It's the Knights Templar" guy. Heh, he did disprove some claims, though. "Sorry, this isn't a petrified head, just carved sandstone", and "Sorry, this is just a natural geologic formation, not a huge wall built by prehistoric giants."

Haha. Google rather quickly comes up autocompleting "Minoans mining copper in Michigan", and it was that show, America Unearthed, if you dare do a search yourself. :smallbiggrin: One article I see debunking that episode (http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/review-of-America-unearthed-s01e03-great-lakes-copper-heist) and the comments mention pre-Columbian copper use in North America, and now that is an interesting subject I know nothing about.

I miss when the History Channel was just WWII porn.

[Lord Torath]

I agree with you here. Until the theory can be proven, it’s just a theory. Debunk was a poor choice of words.Hypothesis, not theory. Theories are testable. Hypotheses don't need to be. Just 'cuz I'm an awful, horrible, nit-picker. :smallwink:

[JustSomeGuy]

Just 'cuz I hypothesize myself to be an awful, horrible, nit-picker. :smallwink:

I'm obliged to write a minimum of 10 characters to post. Here's some, and spares too.

[ThinkMinty]

Hypothesis, not theory. Theories are testable. Hypotheses don't need to be. Just 'cuz I'm an awful, horrible, nit-picker. :smallwink:

Nit-picker? Far from it. This distinction needs to be drilled into the head of every man, woman, child, and otherwise-identified person until it's a reflexive distinction. I never again want to hear "it's just a theory, bro"-style anti-scientific thought from someone who isn't even using language the right way.

[Nourjan]

Does this count as atypical enough?

http://www.forensicfashion.com/1840KiribatiWarrior.html

These folks wore woven coconut fiber armor and used clubs and spears edged with shark's teeth, apparently used with a ripping, slashing motion. As noted in one of the accounts here, that large panel rising behind the head is because the ladies of the tribe stood to the rear, hurling stones at the enemy, and that panel is to prevent poorly-aimed stones from knocking the brains out of their own guys. :smallsmile:

It's not rock, but it's weird and kind of colorful.

Edit:

Here's an old photo of a chap actually wearing one, though it's an old one in fairly bad repair.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/45/f1/2f/45f12f3cd811a07d24d1490a8a220761.jpg


Reminds me about a project from a few years ago on making ballistic armour from coconut husk. I believe they stated that their prototype could withstand 9mm round (not sure about the range or is it the upper limit, though).