Miniatures Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff [Archive]

Cheesegear

2015-09-24, 06:16 AM

Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground

I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy the Dark Vengeance starter box.

What's Dark Vengeance?
Dark Vengeance contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

It contains roughly 850 Points worth of Dark Angels. However, it only contains around 500 points worth of Chaos Space Marines. Of course, if you're playing DV as it's meant to be played, you're never using all of the models at once so the points difference doesn't really matter.

However, in practical terms, the Dark Angels are only barely legal and lack enough Scoring models. And, while the CSMs are legal, they're almost 300 points behind and lack anything that packs a decent punch. You will also need the relevant Codecies for your faction as it will dramatically change the way you play the game as opposed to using the reference sheets that come with DV.

How much does it cost?
The Dark Vengeance box, one Codex, one other box of your choosing, and a Starter Paint Set costs you about the same as a Playstation 3 and one game*. In both cases, you'd be good to go for about a month. This author thinks of most boxes as console games, and Flyers and Land Raiders are the AAA-Title Collector's Edition game. The difference being that in this hobby you can use all your 'games' at the same time, and continuously.

Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

*Priced in $AU where everything is more expensive - although the ratios should be the same.

Okay, I've got everything. What next?
Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army.
Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
There are ways that you can play 200, 400 and 500 point games using altered rules. But, if you want to play the game as-is, the recommended minimum is 750.

The game 'balances out' at 1500. Most games should be played at this level since pretty much all armies get a fair shake.

However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8702512&postcount=1358)

As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1250 with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

I did what you said and I still lost. What gives? :smallfurious:
First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

How much terrain do I need?
Up to 12 pieces is the official word. However, that can get crowded pretty fast if you've got big pieces.

A better guide is roughly anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board. :smallsigh:

I don't like using Special Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
Your opponents probably don't. Special Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Special Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Special Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

So which Allies should I pick?
Depends on your army, and what units you already have. Ask in the thread.

I can't paint.
Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel. :smallwink:

But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8722344&postcount=1421)

Which army is the best?
That's a loaded question. It depends what points limit you're playing at (at 1500 there really isn't one). But, there is no 'best' army. Plasma beats Terminators beats Mech beats Plasma. 40K is much like Rock, Paper, Scissors. None of the armies are 'best', as each army can be countered. Some armies are better than others, but there is no 'best'.

However, as you play the game you will notice that your Codex doesn't have the units that beat another Codex. That's not to say that you haven't won any games, and it's not to say that your opponents' armies haven't lost several games to armies that just aren't yours. It just means that your army can't beat your opponent's army with what you've got available to you. That's why Allies need to be in the game.

Wait, so there are bad Codecies?
Yes. But, every Codex should be usable between 1000-1500 points. So, no matter what army you pick, you'll be okay within those points limits, or, you should be. If you find that your Codex/Army isn't doing well against certain opponents, and there's nothing you can do; You may need Allies.

Helpful Army Building Guides
7th Edition Guides
Blood Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18559882&postcount=120)
Chaos Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17547175&postcount=1006)
Chaos Daemons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18615478&postcount=343)
Cult Mechanicus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19564617&postcount=969)
Dark Eldar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18231371&postcount=779)
Grey Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18892643&postcount=999)
Khorne Daemonkin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19029512&postcount=1236) by Grim Portent
Necrons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20054321&postcount=401) by Requizen
Skitarii (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19433696&postcount=665)

Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19496134&postcount=821)
- Space Marines, Part II: Chapter Tactics and Special Characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19522424&postcount=849)
- Space Marines, Part III:
- - Shadow Force Solaq (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19991666&postcount=259)
- - Kauyon Detachments and Formations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20044717&postcount=378)

Space Wolves (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17946320&postcount=453) by Squark
Tyranids (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17664323&postcount=1310) by Wraith

Tau Empire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15454276&postcount=563) by Tome
- Farsight Enclaves (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341687-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XX-quot-Barrage-is-the-new-Precision-Shot-quot&p=17347839&viewfull=1#post17347839) by Tome

Orks
-WAAAGH!!! Ghazghkull (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359820-Warhammer-40k-Tabletop-XXI-Preferred-Enemy-%28Dice%29&p=17723456#post17723456)

(Misc.) Fighter Aces (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18500576&postcount=1350) by Vaz
A Guide to Fortifications - Stronghold Assault (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17823987&postcount=287)

Building on a Budget
Orks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19212984&postcount=139)
Dark Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19240362&postcount=203)
Chaos Space Marines (Nurgle) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19362421&postcount=492)
Blood Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19273122&postcount=258)
Grey Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20242483&postcount=981)
Tau Empire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20284052&postcount=1252)
Eldar Craftworlds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19470100&postcount=779)
Tyranids (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19306045&postcount=329)

Forge World
Siege Assault Vanguard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17668255&postcount=1326)

Imperial Armour
(IA1/2E) Imperial Guard Armoured Battle Group (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16838329&postcount=972) by Issabella
(IA2/2E) Space Marine Vehicles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16977518&postcount=1084)
(IA3/2E) Elysian Drop Troops (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341687-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XX-quot-Barrage-is-the-new-Precision-Shot-quot/page3&p=17310139#post17310139) by Issabella
(IA9 / 10) Space Marine Chapter Tactics and Special Characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16807713&postcount=890)
(IA12) The Dark Harvest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16994548&postcount=1096) - Necrons
(IA12) The Minotaurs and Krieg Assault Brigade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17033958&postcount=1143) - Space Marines and Imperial Guard

30K/Heresy Guides
30K Relics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18500576&postcount=1350) by Vaz
Solar Auxilia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471119&postcount=1234) by Vaz
Taghmata Omnissiah Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18522411&postcount=1421) by Vaz
Questoris Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471124&postcount=1235) by Vaz

30K/Legion Rules
Legion Crusade Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17232158&postcount=1308)
Legion Special Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17243267&postcount=1322)
The Primarchs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17250802&postcount=1330)

Previous Threads
* Warhammer 40K Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29297)
* II: Tactics for the Tactics God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101608)
* III: Hats for the Hat Throne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119333)
* IV: The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133984)
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141538)
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149084)
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156779)
* VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165820)
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175990)
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184538)
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193025)
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199750)
* XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208838)
* XIV: "Pray for 6s!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221858)
* XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232277)
* XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248423)
* XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265917)
* XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282842)
* XIX: Understand the Gravity of the Situation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303801-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XIX-quot-Understand-the-gravity-of-the-situation-quot)
* XX: Barrage is the new Precision Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341687-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XX-quot-Barrage-is-the-new-Precision-Shot-quot)
* XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359820-Warhammer-40k-Tabletop-XXI-Preferred-Enemy-(Dice))
* XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388399-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXII-I-C-Tan-Has-Cheese#post18535364)
* XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411374-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIII-I-Do-Not-Like-Green-Tides-and-Hann)

Here's a bunch of Battle Reports (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18936242&postcount=1125) for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.

Cheesegear

2015-09-24, 06:25 AM

...Last time in the Playground

Blackhawk was trying to get a Renegades army off the ground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19862089&postcount=1468).

...We now return you to your regular thread.

JNAProductions

2015-09-24, 09:52 AM

So something that got ignored in the last thread due to all the talking about the future of 40k-does anyone who uses Typhus ever actually use the Destroyer Hive ability?

Requizen

2015-09-24, 10:08 AM

So something that got ignored in the last thread due to all the talking about the future of 40k-does anyone who uses Typhus ever actually use the Destroyer Hive ability?

I only have used Typhus a few times so far (having only bought him recently), but I've never used it. I could see situations where it's useful - say if you're fighting a challenge or tied up in combat and want some extra damage - but it's not super powerful and most of the time I feel like I'd rather not kill my own Zombies.

Turalisj

2015-09-24, 12:14 PM

So anyone expecting anything for the new tau codex? I heard something about new firewarrior weapons?

Grim Portent

2015-09-24, 12:23 PM

Edit: Ok thats enough griping about GW for right now (we can always go back later :smalltongue:) Heres the core of a Renegades and Heretics list i came up with awhile back and im wondering what you guys think:

HQ
Renegade Command Squad 14 Disciples,Carapace Armor, Master of the Horde, Banner of Hate, command net vox-215

Elite
Renegade Marauder Squad Stalkers, 2 Meltaguns, 9 Marauders-125

Troops
Renegade Infantry 3 Squads 20 Renegades, 4 Grenade Launchers, 2 Autocanons, Militia Training-330
Renegade Infantry 3 Squads 20 Renegades, 4 Grenade Launchers, 2 Autocanons, Militia Training-330

Heavy Support
Medusa Siege Cannon, Breacher Shells-110
Medusa Siege Cannon, Breacher Shells-110

Total 1220

Originally i was gonna ally in Arhiman and some Thousand Sons, but then i found out that the TSons wouldnt count as Troops because of weird detachment stuff, so that got shot in the foot. So ive got 780 free points, with no clue what to spend them on.

Not sure the Marauders are that useful myself. I guess you'll be using them for outflanking to snipe vehicles, but I feel they're not a durable or reliable enough unit for that compared to things like DS veterans. Two 5 man units of veterans with Deep Strike and a Meltagun is 120 points, or 100 points for a 10 man unit with 2 meltaguns, and they can hit vehicles that are further from the board edges and have more reliable-ish morale.

As for stuff to add in, more artillery is always good, Leman Russ tanks are good, anything that uses blasts is good really. Allying in some KDK gorepacks would be pretty good since Flesh Hounds are really nice. Be'lakor is good, though there's not a lot for him to do in this list.

Maybe pick up the dedication to nurgle and field a big blob of zombies, they're always nice.

Cheesegear

2015-09-24, 05:00 PM

So ive got 780 free points, with no clue what to spend them on.

Hydras or Vengeance Weapons wouldn't go astray. Or anything that has Skyfire, really. If Fliers aren't a problem, then you can always go with Rapier Laser Destroyers.

Chaos Marines, AD
Be'lakor - 350 Points
Cultists (x10) - 50 Points
Heldrake; Baleflamer - 170 Points

Total: 570 Points.
One of the best Detachments in the game.

Blackhawk748

2015-09-24, 05:19 PM

Thinking on this some more, i realize that i want to go more for Renegade and less Heretic. Meaning i want a large mob of pissed off Menials, not a bunch of Chaos nuts. Now im aware that this shoots me in the foot for allies, but hey thats what happens when you build a fluffy army :smalltongue:

Most likely ill just add another Platoon like the first two, a Rapier Laser Destroyer, and maybe a Hellhound or two if i've got the points. Thats a ton of shots a turn with some good long range fire support. It also has the benefit of strategically being similar to my Orks, who are a bunch of Shoota boyz who pretend its WW1. I think my Renegades should be better at it :smallwink:

Eldan

2015-09-24, 05:29 PM

So anyone expecting anything for the new tau codex? I heard something about new firewarrior weapons?

A better flier? At least I've never seen Tau players use them much.

Manticoran

2015-09-24, 05:41 PM

Why not just run an IG list and mod them to be all renegade-y then?

Blackhawk748

2015-09-24, 05:45 PM

Why not just run an IG list and mod them to be all renegade-y then?

Mostly because i cant get Master of the Horde, and the Renegades have a few things normal Guard dont.

Ill be honest, its 90% no Master of the Horde, i love that ability.

Grim Portent

2015-09-24, 05:45 PM

Why not just run an IG list and mod them to be all renegade-y then?

Probably because renegades have a better mechanical representation of the rebellious rabble type army than IG do. Worse BS, no/worse armour saves, random leadership, highly variable gear, etc.

bluntpencil

2015-09-24, 09:43 PM

Probably because renegades have a better mechanical representation of the rebellious rabble type army than IG do. Worse BS, no/worse armour saves, random leadership, highly variable gear, etc.

You can do similar with Veterans, Guardsmen and Conscripts representing different types of Renegade.

Cheesegear

2015-09-25, 08:13 AM

Probably because renegades have a better mechanical representation of the rebellious rabble type army than IG do. Worse BS, no/worse armour saves, random leadership, highly variable gear, etc.

Heh. First page and I already get to reference the thread title.
None of what you just said sounds like a positive, to me.

Blackhawk748

2015-09-25, 09:36 AM

Heh. First page and I already get to reference the thread title.
None of what you just said sounds like a positive, to me.

It generally isnt, but i like the army, and even with Militia training they are cheaper per model than IG, and just keep getting cheaper the more you take, thus letting me take more Heavy Weapons. And have Master of the Horde. Renegades Without Number!!!

bluntpencil

2015-09-25, 11:44 AM

It generally isnt, but i like the army, and even with Militia training they are cheaper per model than IG, and just keep getting cheaper the more you take, thus letting me take more Heavy Weapons. And have Master of the Horde. Renegades Without Number!!!

Yeah, but Guard Conscripts are better armoured than Renegades (with basically equivalent stats), for the same points and, more importantly, can come in squads of fifty. Okay, they don't get Heavy Weapons, but who cares? Sit a Heavy Weapon squad or four right behind them. Or take Veterans and give them Demo Charges, as the elite, crazy sons-of-dogs that are just as likely to blow themselves up as the enemy. Veterans with Forward Sentries make for cool guerilla types too. None of these guys can come back from the dead (no more Kubrik Chenkov :( ), but they benefit from Orders, Priests, and various other things.

Or you can take Infantry Squads, and mob them up into squads of fifty, with a Priest leading, like regular Guard armies do, and refluff the Priest as a Demagogue. The Lieutenant is a... Renegade Lieutenant, or Ringleader, or whatever. Guard is a pretty strong army, after all. Take loads of Primaris Psykers as Rogue Psykers. Whatever. Ogryns can be Renegade Ogryns, or massive mutants. Ratlings can be stealth mutants or whatever.

Ally in Dark Angels as Fallen, if you really want to. Ally in Ad-Mech as Hereteks. Ally in Inquisitors as Arch-Heretics, or Radical Inquisitors, or...

Lots of ways to build an, on paper, Guard Army as Renegades, as Tau Sympathisers, as a Rogue Trader's personal retinue, as PDF, as Frateris Militia, as...

Blackhawk748

2015-09-25, 12:00 PM

Yeah, but Guard Conscripts are better armoured than Renegades (with basically equivalent stats), for the same points and, more importantly, can come in squads of fifty. Okay, they don't get Heavy Weapons, but who cares? Sit a Heavy Weapon squad or four right behind them. Or take Veterans and give them Demo Charges, as the elite, crazy sons-of-dogs that are just as likely to blow themselves up as the enemy. Veterans with Forward Sentries make for cool guerilla types too. None of these guys can come back from the dead (no more Kubrik Chenkov :( ), but they benefit from Orders, Priests, and various other things.

Or you can take Infantry Squads, and mob them up into squads of fifty, with a Priest leading, like regular Guard armies do, and refluff the Priest as a Demagogue. The Lieutenant is a... Renegade Lieutenant, or Ringleader, or whatever. Guard is a pretty strong army, after all. Take loads of Primaris Psykers as Rogue Psykers. Whatever. Ogryns can be Renegade Ogryns, or massive mutants. Ratlings can be stealth mutants or whatever.

Ally in Dark Angels as Fallen, if you really want to. Ally in Ad-Mech as Hereteks. Ally in Inquisitors as Arch-Heretics, or Radical Inquisitors, or...

Lots of ways to build an, on paper, Guard Army as Renegades, as Tau Sympathisers, as a Rogue Trader's personal retinue, as PDF, as Frateris Militia, as...

And with my Master of the Horde i can take mine in squads of 30 and get WS and BS 3 for 100 pts. Like i said, its mostly because i love Master of the Horde and just how cheap the Infantry are, Also are we really talking about 5+ armor like its significantly better than 6+? With who i usually fight im never gonna get the save anyway, so its really a moot point. On top of this, Orders just feel out of place in this army. Its a bunch of angry Menials armed with Stub Rifles who have had some Militia Training not a Renegade PDF force.

Also Renegade Ogryn are amazing especially if you stick an Enforcer with a Chem Injector in the squad. Ogryns with Rage? Yes please!!

Grim Portent

2015-09-25, 12:19 PM

And with my Master of the Horde i can take mine in squads of 30 and get WS and BS 3 for 100 pts. Like i said, its mostly because i love Master of the Horde and just how cheap the Infantry are, Also are we really talking about 5+ armor like its significantly better than 6+? With who i usually fight im never gonna get the save anyway, so its really a moot point. On top of this, Orders just feel out of place in this army. Its a bunch of angry Menials armed with Stub Rifles who have had some Militia Training not a Renegade PDF force.

Also Renegade Ogryn are amazing especially if you stick an Enforcer with a Chem Injector in the squad. Ogryns with Rage? Yes please!!

Renegade Ogryn also cost a lot to field. I'd say they work best in a Mutants list since they can get the mutant buffs for a pretty good price while a Horde army is better off spamming artillery and infantry platoon swarms.

Also don't renegades start with no save? It's not usually worth the points to buy a save for them since everyone but guard ignores 6+ and most of the other armies ignore 5+ as well.

I had that army guide written up somewhere in the last thread, but I don't think it was ever added to the list.

Blackhawk748

2015-09-25, 12:55 PM

Renegade Ogryn also cost a lot to field. I'd say they work best in a Mutants list since they can get the mutant buffs for a pretty good price while a Horde army is better off spamming artillery and infantry platoon swarms.

Also don't renegades start with no save? It's not usually worth the points to buy a save for them since everyone but guard ignores 6+ and most of the other armies ignore 5+ as well.

I had that army guide written up somewhere in the last thread, but I don't think it was ever added to the list.

Its either a 6+ or no save, and i dont much care as they'll be cover camping anyway. I also a agree on the Ogryns, Fanged and Clawed on them is ridiculous, they are also crazy pricey, but you are basically getting an Ork Warboss.

5 Ogryn Brute w/ Carapace Armor-425

For that you're getting, 1d6+1 S 5attacks on the Charge, Hammer of Wrath, Fearless (so their terrible Ld soesnt really matter), freakin Rampage, and they are all T5 W3 with 4+ armor. Now if you wanna get more expensive, you can go buy a Mark. Nurgle gets you FnP (big Surprise) Khorne lets you re roll your random attacks, Tzeentch gets you an extra CC weapon (seems meh) and Slaanesh gets you Fleet. So ya, grab some Nurgle Ogryns and giggle as they never freakin die and they spit out 1d6+1d3 attacks per turn.

......I think i may do this now.

One thing im not clear on, is the Marks cost per model or for the unit?

Grim Portent

2015-09-25, 01:04 PM

Its either a 6+ or no save, and i dont much care as they'll be cover camping anyway. I also a agree on the Ogryns, Fanged and Clawed on them is ridiculous, they are also crazy pricey, but you are basically getting an Ork Warboss.

5 Ogryn Brute w/ Carapace Armor-425

For that you're getting, 1d6+1 S 5attacks on the Charge, Hammer of Wrath, Fearless (so their terrible Ld soesnt really matter), freakin Rampage, and they are all T5 W3 with 4+ armor. Now if you wanna get more expensive, you can go buy a Mark. Nurgle gets you FnP (big Surprise) Khorne lets you re roll your random attacks, Tzeentch gets you an extra CC weapon (seems meh) and Slaanesh gets you Fleet. So ya, grab some Nurgle Ogryns and giggle as they never freakin die and they spit out 1d6+1d3 attacks per turn.

......I think i may do this now.

One thing im not clear on, is the Marks cost per model or for the unit?

Dedications are per unit.

Chaos Hounds are a pretty nice way to bulk up the unit by the way, much cheaper wounds than Ogryn, though the lack of a save is a pain.

Blackhawk748

2015-09-25, 01:13 PM

Dedications are per unit.

Chaos Hounds are a pretty nice way to bulk up the unit by the way, much cheaper wounds than Ogryn, though the lack of a save is a pain.

Oh sweet mother of god. So for 450 points i get 5, 4+ armor Ws 4, S5, T5, W3, Fearless, Rampage, FnP, HoW units with 1d6 attacks? Im so taking this.

If anyone is curious 4 Warbosses w/ 'eavy armor and Grotsnik cost 416 points, and you have pretty much the same unit. So its totally priced right.

The Hounds are nice, like real nice, but no FnP makes me sad.

Cheesegear

2015-09-25, 08:16 PM

It generally isnt, but i like the army, and even with Militia training they are cheaper per model than IG, and just keep getting cheaper the more you take, thus letting me take more Heavy Weapons. And have Master of the Horde. Renegades Without Number!!!

But it only happens on a 5+, it barely works anyway, and you're not even maxing it out. Your list is completely wrong for a Master of the Horde army.

Renegades and Heretics, CAD
Renegade Command Squad - 130 Points
- (W) Carapace Armour, Refractor Field, Master of the Horde
- Banner of Hate, Lascannon, Carapace Armour

Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Lascannons, Militia Training - 160 Points
Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Lascannons, Militia Training - 160 Points
Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Autocannons, Militia Training - 130 Points
Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Autocannons, Militia Training - 130 Points
Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Autocannons, Militia Training - 130 Points
Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x6 Flamers - 120 Points

Renegade Ogryn Brutes (x6); Carapace Armour, Nurgle - 420 Points

Vengeance Weapon Battery (x2); Quad Icarus Lascannons - 150 Points

Renegades and Heretics, CAD
Renegade Command Squad - 45 Points

Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Lascannons, Militia Training - 160 Points
Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x5 Flamers - 115 Points

Total: 1850 Points

Master of the Horde is only good if it works. Which it only does on a 5+. Master of the Horde applies to your army, so what you really want to be doing is spamming Detachments. Under ITC rules, you can only take two of the same Detachment, so whatever. Since I read the thread, I see you want to take Ogryns for no good reason, especially since they aren't even Infantry Squads.

Blackhawk748

2015-09-25, 11:35 PM

But it only happens on a 5+, it barely works anyway, and you're not even maxing it out. Your list is completely wrong for a Master of the Horde army.

Renegades and Heretics, CAD
Renegade Command Squad - 130 Points
- (W) Carapace Armour, Refractor Field, Master of the Horde
- Banner of Hate, Lascannon, Carapace Armour

Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Lascannons, Militia Training - 160 Points
Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Lascannons, Militia Training - 160 Points
Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Autocannons, Militia Training - 130 Points
Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Autocannons, Militia Training - 130 Points
Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Autocannons, Militia Training - 130 Points
Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x6 Flamers - 120 Points

Renegade Ogryn Brutes (x6); Carapace Armour, Nurgle - 420 Points

Vengeance Weapon Battery (x2); Quad Icarus Lascannons - 150 Points

Renegades and Heretics, CAD
Renegade Command Squad - 45 Points

Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Lascannons, Militia Training - 160 Points
Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x5 Flamers - 115 Points

Total: 1850 Points

Master of the Horde is only good if it works. Which it only does on a 5+. Master of the Horde applies to your army, so what you really want to be doing is spamming Detachments. Under ITC rules, you can only take two of the same Detachment, so whatever. Since I read the thread, I see you want to take Ogryns for no good reason, especially since they aren't even Infantry Squads.

I was gonna say i need more Artillery in this list, then i saw the Vengeance Weapon Batteries, so that is totally covered. All i can say is, dear god thats a ton of infantry.

lord_khaine

2015-09-26, 05:10 AM

I was gonna say i need more Artillery in this list, then i saw the Vengeance Weapon Batteries, so that is totally covered. All i can say is, dear god thats a ton of infantry.

Its the "the opponent starts to pain while you set up" army :smalltongue:

Ricky S

2015-09-26, 05:26 AM

I was gonna say i need more Artillery in this list, then i saw the Vengeance Weapon Batteries, so that is totally covered. All i can say is, dear god thats a ton of infantry.

That should win a heap of games if you play it right. I've been trying out infantry guard recently now that I finally have enough infantry to play worthwhile points limits with them and flooding the board makes it extremely hard for your opponent.

Im not really sure how chaos renegades work but it looks promising.

Cheesegear

2015-09-26, 06:17 AM

All i can say is, dear god thats a ton of infantry.

Isn't that the point? :smallconfused:
The more units you have, the more chance you can roll the 5+ that you need, otherwise your army is pointless. The other thing to remember is that you don't just get the unit. It's nothing like the old 'Send in the next Wave'. The unit you 'get' is placed in Reserve, not on the board - and that's actually kind of bad.

The more models you have, per unit, means that when you eventually do roll the 5+, you get more free models. Effectively Summoning. Every single model in your army that isn't part of an Infantry Squad, is pretty much wasted potential. That's why I'm not so happy about the 400 Point unit that could easily be 3-4 more Infantry Squads depending on upgrades, which is entirely possible since the second CAD has <4 Troops slots open, so why not?

I'd also seriously consider bringing a second Fort in the second CAD, such as an Aegis Line or a Fortress of Redemption instead of the Ogryns. Something that actually makes your Infantry more survivable since they have no Armour Save at all. Which means even AP- weapons kill them reliably if they aren't in Cover, and that just shouldn't happen. But, if you're under ITC restrictions (and I see no reason why not, since it's good), then you can't have the second Fort, and you should definitely keep the Vengeance Weapons - or trade them for a Firestorm Redoubt, or something.

Im not really sure how chaos renegades work but it looks promising.

He's basing his army around Master of the Horde; Every time an Infantry Squad dies, try and roll a 5+, then put an identical unit into Reserve.

Eldan

2015-09-26, 06:19 AM

All I can say about this list is that it's more models than I usually played for 3000 points Skaven. So, have fun painting.

Blackhawk748

2015-09-26, 10:18 AM

All I can say about this list is that it's more models than I usually played for 3000 points Skaven. So, have fun painting.

Ya, not looking forward to that.....

Isn't that the point? :smallconfused:
The more units you have, the more chance you can roll the 5+ that you need, otherwise your army is pointless. The other thing to remember is that you don't just get the unit. It's nothing like the old 'Send in the next Wave'. The unit you 'get' is placed in Reserve, not on the board - and that's actually kind of bad.

The more models you have, per unit, means that when you eventually do roll the 5+, you get more free models. Effectively Summoning. Every single model in your army that isn't part of an Infantry Squad, is pretty much wasted potential. That's why I'm not so happy about the 400 Point unit that could easily be 3-4 more Infantry Squads depending on upgrades, which is entirely possible since the second CAD has <4 Troops slots open, so why not?

I'd also seriously consider bringing a second Fort in the second CAD, such as an Aegis Line or a Fortress of Redemption instead of the Ogryns. Something that actually makes your Infantry more survivable since they have no Armour Save at all. Which means even AP- weapons kill them reliably if they aren't in Cover, and that just shouldn't happen. But, if you're under ITC restrictions (and I see no reason why not, since it's good), then you can't have the second Fort, and you should definitely keep the Vengeance Weapons - or trade them for a Firestorm Redoubt, or something.

This is all true, and i may drop the Ogryns for another Fort, probably an Imperial Defense Network

1 Bunker-55
I Defense Line-80
1 Defense Emplacement-40
1 Firestorm Redoubt 2 Battle Cannons-220
1 Vengeance Weapon Battery (quad Icarus Lascannon)-75

Total 470

Ill run the Ogryns and see how they do, if they underperform ill swap them for the Defense Network

Cheesegear

2015-09-27, 01:53 AM

Week 9 of getting my army painted.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/Cheesegear%20Painting%20Journey%20-%20Imperial%20Fists/Week%209_zpsgsoqgrkr.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/Cheesegear%20Painting%20Journey%20-%20Imperial%20Fists/09272015_zpscq4z20sg.jpg

eBay came along and gave me all the parts I needed to finish my Chaplain, and the Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer also got made. However, I'm waiting for a pair of Forge World doors to show up in my mailbox, so, this week I probably want to get started on my Bikes, should be easy. I hope.

Drasius

2015-09-27, 03:57 AM

Nice work Cheese, they're lookin' gooood.

I've said a few times (and heard others say) that you could randomly roll eldar units to make a decent army list. So I gave it a bash today. Rules were as follows;

Generate HQ (they have 12 HQ's, roll a d6 to determine first 6 or second 6, then roll again to determine which HQ by order in the book)
Generate wargear for said HQ, rolling a d6 to determine if they take the options listed (on a 4+ they do), then randomly generate powers (if required) by rolling a d6 for which psychic school they will generate each power from.
Generate 2x Troops (same method as HQ, but in addition, determine if they add any additional troopers and if so, how many)

Now mandatory slots are filled, roll a d6 for each additional unit.
1 = HQ
2 = Troop
3 = Elite
4 = FA
5 = Heavy Support
6 = Lord of War

As soon as all available slots are filled, re-roll any reult that doesn't fit in a CAD.
Generate each unit as per previous, rolling randomly for each option (including dedicated transports and all their oprions as well). Cease when you've reached the points limit.

LOW
315 - Wraithknight, Suncannon/Shield, 1x Starcannon

HQ
70 - Spirit Seer (Runes of Battle, Empower), (Runes of Battle, Protect + Conceal)

Troops
237 - 8x Storm Guardians, 1x Warlock, 2x Fusion Guns, Wave Serpent
186 - 19x Guardian Defenders, 1x Scatter Laser
51 - 3x Wind Riders
60 - 5x Rangers

Elites
135 - 5x Fire Dragons, Exarch, Firepike

Fast Attack
95 - Warp Spiders

Heavy Support
389 - 8x Dark Reapers, Starshot Missiles, Wave Serpent, Twin Linked Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
159 - 3x Dark Reapers, Starshot missiles, Exarch, Tempest Launcher
125 - 2x War Walkers, 3x Shuriken Cannons, 1x Suncannon

1822 points.

Use the remaining 28 points to either give the wraithknight a second starcannon and upgrade the other 3 shuricannons on the warwalkers to suncannons
or
Round the Guardian Defenders out to 20 models and get them another scatter laser platform.

Switch the 6th Ed Serpent from the Reapers to the Fragons and it's a serviceable list (though you would forever hate yourself if you actually builkt a wraithknight with the cannon/shield).

Stick the Spiritseer in with either the guardians or the fragons (assuming you switch the reapers serpent to the fragons) and either use shrouded or protect, respectively, to keep your dudes alive after getting out and popping something.

Feel free to stick 3 of the Fragons/Spiders/Reapers into an aspect host for BS5 for free.

Hmmm... Wonder what would happen if we did the same for CSM eh?

HQ
165 - Fabulous Bill
270 - Daemon Prince, Mark of Slaanesh, ML3, Wings (Symphony of Pain, Sensory Overload), (Ecstactic Siezures), (Life Leach)

Troops
67 - 10x Cultists, Shotgun, flamer, 4x Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
139 - 5x CSM, Mark of Nurgle, 1x additional CCW, 1x trade bolter for CCW, 1x Melta Gun, 1x Gift of mutation (Feel no Pain), Melta Bombs
377 - 17x CSM, 5x additional CCW, 3x trade bolter for CCW, 1x Plasma pistol exchang for bolt pistol, 1x Heavy bolter, Mark of Nurgle, Icon of Vengance, Rhino
284 - 15x CSM, 3x additional CCW, 4x exchange bolter for CCW, 1x Flamer, 1x Power Lance (!), 1x Combi bolter, Mark of Khorne, Rhino, Warpflame Gargoyles, Extra armour, Destroyer Blades

Elites
190 - 5x Possessed, Mark of Tzeentch, 2x Gifts (Spawn, +1 Str to shooting weapon [note, possessed don't even have shooting weapons]), Icon of Vengance [note, they're already fearless, the Icon of Vengance grants fearless but still costs 5 points], VotLW

Fast Attack
153 - 5x Raptors, Mark of Nurgle, 1x Flamer, 1x Chain Axe, 1x Combi Plasma, 1x Gift (Crusader), Icon of Despair [note, raptors come stock with fear, the Icon of Despair gives fear but costs 10 points]
183 - 7x Raptors, Mark of Tzeentch, 1x Power Fist, 1x Combi Plasma, 1x Melta Bombs

Total - 1828

What is this I don't even?

Fear on a unit that already has it, Fearless on a unit that already has it, non assault combi weapons on units that want to assault, a Power Lance!, no heavy supports, a prince with neither MoN or MoT, no armour and 2 rolls on Slaanesh when you have no noise marines, mark of tzeentch on a unit with no natural invo, then madness just doesn't end.

Do whatever with the remaining 32 points, nothing can save this random collection of junk.

Switch a rhino over to the 5 man marines, stick Fabulous Bill in the small nurgle unit to make them fearless and enhance the khorne blob to make them fearless and get +1 strength, but there is not really anything you can do since you've basically got 30 footslogging marines with no punch and a number of MSU overcosted T4 fast units with no supporting fire at all.

No. Just no.

Killer Angel

2015-09-27, 04:43 AM

I'd also seriously consider bringing a second Fort in the second CAD, such as an Aegis Line or a Fortress of Redemption instead of the Ogryns. Something that actually makes your Infantry more survivable since they have no Armour Save at all. Which means even AP- weapons kill them reliably if they aren't in Cover, and that just shouldn't happen.

With so many units, it's highly probable that some of them won't have cover.
But that depends also on the opponent's kind of army, of course.

Boci

2015-09-27, 10:11 AM

So I've been interested in narrative campaigns for 40k, basically a battle with a story behind it and rules to reflect this particular scenario. Here's one I've come up with:

The Imperial Guard has almost beaten the Tau back on the Northern flank, but the war not over. The Blue Skins are still strong on the Southern Frontier, and they are working up to launched an offensive there with will hit full force within weeks, the Pathfinders have already been unleashed. Not many forces can be spared, and so the Imperial Guard has one chance to clear this flank for good, a single air base representing the last stronghold of the Tau on the northern front.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tau Army list:

1 Ethereal with honourblade and darksun filters - 60

5 fire warriors, 1 Shazlee, ritual of the bonding knife and EMP grenades - 70

1 Riptide, early warning override, velocity tracker – 205

13 Kroot, 4 kroot hounds, 2 krootox riders, 1shaper with pulse carbine - 155

3 razorshark fighters with missile pods, Automated repair system, Advanced Targeting Systems, Blacksun Filters, Decoy Launchers and Disruption Pods – 552

2 sunshark bombers with twinlinked missile pods Automated repair system, Blacksun Filters, Decoy Launchers and Disruption Pods– 378

Fortifications: 2 aegis defence lines (100 points) with 5 networked markerlights (50 points) placed long them

Total: 1450 +150 points of fortifications

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum get:
1400 points, freely spent save for the following restriction:
No Allies (They're too valuable, and are all deployed on the Southern Flank)
Non-flying heavy supports cost 25% extra points (rounded up), to represent the logistical nightmare of getting such slow vehicles onto the battlelines.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Game Setup:

Deployment and First turn: Tau automatically deploy and go first. Their fliers start on the board, and are treated as having entered from reserve on turn 0.

Nightfighting: The Imperial guard player chooses how much night fighting there is (because they decide when to attack). They can choose between the following 3 options:
No night fighting (No addition to seize the initiative)
Night fighting for the first turn (This option also gives the IG player +1 to seize the initiative)
Night fighting for the whole game (This option also gives the IG player +2 to seize the initiative)

If Imperial Guard seize the initiative, the 5 Tau fighters start the game grounded. They are not treated as flying until Tau turn 1, where their movement is halved, as they need to take off.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So would this be an interesting game to play do you think? I know a lot would depend on exactly what army the Imperial Guard builds, but in general would it work?

JNAProductions

2015-09-27, 10:13 AM

Boci

2015-09-27, 10:20 AM

Sounds interesting, but where does it go from there? What happens if the Tau win? or if the IG win?

If the Tau win, then perhaps it's time to mount a counter-offensive.

But if IG win, that's kinda game, neh? Bit anticlimatic.

Regardless of the outcome of the battle, the focus would then shift to the Southern front. If the airbase was not destroyed, the Tau would get a bonus to for having an air base behind enemy lines.

Edit: And if the Imperial Guard won, they'd get a bonus for being able to redeploy forces from the Northern Frontier.

JNAProductions

2015-09-27, 10:23 AM

Ah, I see. Well, keep me and the rest of the forum informed on how this goes, and what new scenarios you come up with.

Boci

2015-09-27, 10:37 AM

Ah, I see. Well, keep me and the rest of the forum informed on how this goes, and what new scenarios you come up with.

Unfortunately this is purely theoretical at the moment, but I'll let you know if it changes.

Artanis

2015-09-27, 12:05 PM

Sounds interesting to me as well. Theoretical or not, if nothing else it'd be cool to see how the story unfolds :smallwink:

Cheesegear

2015-09-27, 07:49 PM

So I've been interested in narrative campaigns for 40k, basically a battle with a story behind it and rules to reflect this particular scenario. Here's one I've come up with:

Having played through Part 1 of Sanctus Reach, let me fix...A lot of it.

The Armies
The Tau player's army may only include units with the Tau Faction and Fortifications. They must choose a Primary Detachment with at least one model with the Flyer Unit Type and may not include a Lord of War.

The Imperial player's army may only include units with the Astra Militarum and Militarum Tempestus Factions. The Imperial player's army may not include any units with the Flyer Type and may not include any Heavy Support or Lord of War units.

The Battlefield
The Tau player places between one and five Skyshield Landing Pads with the Ready for Takeoff special rule. He does not pay any points for these Fortifications. All Skyshield Landing Pads start the game Unfurled. Once all Fortifications have been placed (including those taken as part of the Tau player's army), the Tau player sets up any remaining terrain in any manner he chooses.

Objective Markers
The Tau player must place one Objective Marker on top of, or within 1" of all Skyshield Landing Pads on the table.

Deployment
The Imperial player selects any one table edge to be his. The Tau player's table edge is the one opposite. The Tau player deploys his force anywhere on the battlefield that is no less than 12" from any table edge. The Tau player must deploy one unit with the Flyer Unit Type for each Skyshield Landing Pad on the board following the rules for Ready for Takeoff until the Tau player has deployed a Flyer on all available Skyshield Landing Pads, or has no more Flyers left to deploy. Any unit that cannot be deployed on the table starts the game in Reserve.

All of the Imperial player's units start the game in Reserve.

First Turn
The Imperial player has the first turn.

Game Length
This mission uses Variable Game Length as described in the rulebook.

Victory Conditions
Primary Objectives
At the end of the game, the Imperial player scores 1 Victory Point for each Tau unit with the Flyer Unit Type that has been completely destroyed. Units that are not on the board at the end of the game, count as destroyed for the purposes of this mission. At the end of the game, the Imperial player scores 3 Victory Points for each Objective Marker he controls.

At the end of the game, the Tau player scores D3 Victory Points for each Tau unit with the Flyer Unit Type that has not been completely destroyed. Units that are not on the board at the end of the game, count as destroyed for the purposes of this mission. At the end of the game, the Tau player scores 1 Victory Point for each Objective Marker he controls.

Secondary Objectives
First Blood, Slay the Warlord

Mission Special Rules
Mysterious Objectives, Night Fighting

Mission Reserves:
- Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of his second turn, the Imperial player makes Reserve Rolls from the start of his first turn.
- The Tau player may choose to pass any Reserve Roll made for a unit with the Flyer Unit Type.

Night Attack!: The Night Fighting rules are used in every turn of the game.

Surrounded: All of the Imperial player's units that start the game in Reserve have the Outflank special rule. If one of the Imperial player's units already has the Outflank special rule, they can re-roll the dice roll to determine which table edge that unit moves onto when it arrives from Reserve.

Hangar Bay: Tau units with the Flyer Unit Type gain the Hover special rule, and must deploy on available Skyshield Landing Pads using the Ready for Takeoff special rule. Flyers that can not be deployed on Skyshield Landing Pads must start the game in Reserve. Starting from the Tau player's Turn 2, all Tau Flyers lose the Hover special rule.

Target Secured: A Tau Player's scoring unit will control an Objective Marker even in an enemy scoring unit is also within ranged of the same Objective Marker.

Tau Victory: The Tau player receives Commander Longstrike and his Hammerhead Gunship for free in [Mission 2].
Imperial Victory: The Imperial player will Seize the Initiative in [Mission 2] on a roll of 2+.

Requizen

2015-09-28, 11:53 AM

JNAProductions

2015-09-28, 11:58 AM

You know what Tau could really use with their new GCs? A "Mechanoid Body" Rule. Haywire always wounds on a 2+ against them.

DaedalusMkV

2015-09-28, 02:27 PM

Expensive, but it outputs a crazy amount of shooting while the Stabilizers are down. Two super-long-ranged Demolisher Cannons and an average of 35 S5 AP5 shots, 8 of them with Ignores Cover, plus a pair of twin-linked special weapons of some sort (probably Airbursts, if their rules haven't changed, though an extra 8 S5 shots wouldn't go amiss). There's only a drawback to putting down your anchors if you get charged, so if you aren't worried about that you can do it every turn and just withdraw them immediately before you move. It's toughish, but not as much as most LOW choices. At T6, it can be killed by pretty much anyone who puts some effort into it, especially since it only has 3+ armour and no access to an Invulnerable Save.

Frankly, it's not too special. It shoots very, very hard on every turn of the game (turn 1 not having the doubled shooting, but does give you 4 one-use Missiles), but will die considerably more easily than a Wraithknight for 70 more points. Being in a squadron only makes it worse. It's still a solid unit, but not a game-breaker like the Wraithknight.

Requizen

2015-09-28, 03:26 PM

I'm pretty sure the Support Systems can add an Invuln Save, if it doesn't change from what it is.

It's not a game breaker. But it does make an impact on the meta. Another easily accessible GC that's hard to justify banning, since it's not overly powerful and is in a standard Codex. Its existence doesn't break the game, but shoves it further into the realm of "bring a LoW or build your army around fighting them". While this isn't necessarily a bad thing (since we're already there for the most part with Wraithknights and Imp Knights), it's not nothing.

thedavo

2015-09-28, 03:41 PM

Right, I'm getting my Orks back out, and looking for some advice.

I've currently got (as far as I remember):

~60 boys, mostly sluggas. Some big shootas, some rokkits.
~15 tankbustas
15 Stormboyz and Zaggstrukk
Ghaz
Warboss with Big Choppa
Painboy
Shokk Attak Mek
KFF Mek
1 other Big Mek
Mekboy
A decent amount of Nobz
Weirdboy
Dakkajet
Some of the old Trukks
1 Trukk
2x Gun wagons
A looted Leman Russ
Skullhamma
9 Killa Kans
3 Dreds

So, first purchases are the latest Codex and WAAAAAAGH! Ghazgkhull, as well as a Stompa, another plane and a Battlewagon (the models being purchased off one of the guys at the club I go to). Where do I go from there? Should I get some Meganobz to stick in the Wagon, or if I'm going to do that should I invest in 15 of them and another two wagons to run the Bully Boyz? Or can I run something decent with what I've got?

Cheesegear

2015-09-28, 06:43 PM

A little hard to read, but here's the new Tau suit:

Is...Is that a joke? It's terrible. Compared to Wraithknights and Imperial Knights, that is.

The thing that people are afraid of is Str-D and Stomps. Well, the Stormsurge's Str-D only has a 10" range, so who cares. The instant you Anchor yourself, you're getting Charged - hopefully Tau Overwatch abilities remain a thing. A Gargantuan that can't Stomp is a bad, bad, terribly unfunny joke. T6 is laughable. Krak Grenades now wound on evens, and with WS2 the Stormsurge is a joke in a Melee. The only thing that the Stormsurge has going for it, is it's Gargantuan status, which lets it fire all its weapons at different targets, and maybe it'll fire twice, sometimes.

The clear winner on the page is the Cluster Rocket System. When that thing fires twice, it'll be amazing. Unfortunately, we wont see the end of the Gladius/MSU just yet. Tournaments only allow one LoW at a time (excepting Imperial Knights...Because), so, even though it looks like a new 'Wave Serpent', what made Wave Serpents good (in 6th Ed., this is), is that you could have anywhere between 5 and 7 of them. I expect Squadrons to be straight up banned, since a lot of tournaments ban the Tripartate Lance Formation, and for good reason. But, that said, Tau don't have any Battle Brother'd Psykers that can turn the whole Squadron Invisible, so who knows how the Stormsurge Squadron will be dealt with.

8 Wounds kind of makes up for the T6. Kind of.

Where do I go from there? Should I get some Meganobz to stick in the Wagon, or if I'm going to do that should I invest in 15 of them and another two wagons to run the Bully Boyz? Or can I run something decent with what I've got?

15 Meganobz isn't a bad place to start. Unfortunately, they only come in boxes of 3 at a time. So, good luck with that. Bully Boyz in the Blitz Brigade sounds cool. But you can't Charge after a Scout move ("But the Boyz didn't Scout, the Battlewagons did!" ...Shut up, idiot). So it's a lot like the Talos Formation for Dark Eldar. Plant huge stuff in the middle of the board and hope that it can hack one or two turns of fire before it gets to Charge. Battlewagons are big, Meganobz have 2+ Armour...If it didn't work, people wouldn't do it. But, most people run the Bully Boyz in Trukks, so it's not that expensive and it doesn't quite set your wallet on fire.

I see you have a lot of Big Meks, you're already on your way to creating the Bossboys (The Red Waaagh!), you lose the ability to Waaagh! since a Big Mek is your Warlord, but you gain some tactical options that help out Orks in a big way (especially in Hammer & Anvil Deployments). Spamming Shokk Attack Guns is funny, once. But mostly the Bossboys serves as a way to put a bunch of Kustom Force Fields pretty much over your entire army. It's not bad.

There are still plastic Deffkoptas with Rokkits all over eBay. Get them if you can. If you can't, well, if you can't get eBay'd plastic models, I don't know how you're expected to pay for resin or metal Tankbustas. In either case, both versions of the list - or one list with both units spammed - is kind of expensive. So...Probably don't do it unless you already have the models, you're halfway with the Tankbustas, at least. Tankbustas inside the Blitz Brigade has had a few lulz, but, same as before, Trukks are just cheaper, both in points and currency. Anytime you feel like your Trukks are flimsy, remember the Bossboys and why isn't everything you own protected by a Kustom Force Field and at least one Mega Field (Waaagh! Ghazgkull)?

'Ard Boys with Shootas are solid. Orks that can actually leave Cover without dying are great. But, at present, all of the good options in the book are quite expensive in points, and that's why Daemon players only run 11 Horror units and/or minimum Nurglings. Skimping on Troops lets you take the actual good stuff. Although, Daemons isn't a great example, 'cause Summoning. A better example would probably be Chaos Marines and spamming Cultists/Zombies, not because they're good, but because they're cheap.

Requizen

2015-09-28, 07:34 PM

This tourney I'm going to on Saturday/Sunday is a freaking joke.

"To encourage a more friendly atmosphere, we encourage you to bring less 'serious' lists, and at a 1500 level. By the way unlimited detachments and any LoW is allowed as long as it has current rules. And prizes include a full Nurgle CSM/Daemon army and a Nurgle Chaos Knight conversion, among other things. Make sure to email your lists so we can check them for Sportsmanship, wouldn't want anyone to be WAAC or anything!"

Be a tournament or be a friendly event. If you're going to give prize support for the top players, don't expect people to not bring their A-game. Or, just be a regular tournament but with extra prizes for themed armies and best sportsman. This weird mix they're trying to push just feels awkward.

Meanwhile, I built 12 more Wraiths for this out of bits, so I'm bringing 18 Wraiths whether they like it or not. Also, the "am I going to make a Summoning army or continue with Necrons" question got answered at the same time. Since there no longer seems to be a Painting and Modeling thread, I might put them up here when I'm done.

Edit: Also, it's an ITC event for points, so expecting people to not go for ITC points just to be "friendly" is extra dumb.

Blackhawk748

2015-09-28, 08:20 PM

Tvtyrant

2015-09-28, 08:56 PM

Crazy tournament rules are crazy. Maybe the shop owner knows someone entering and is hoping to write it down as a business expense? :smallconfused:

As an aside, if you were looking for 500 points on a Necron list would a Knight Errant be a reasonable choice? Along with other things of course.

Cheesegear

2015-09-28, 09:12 PM

To encourage a more friendly atmosphere, we encourage you to bring less 'serious' lists, and at a 1500 level.

I'm on board so far...

unlimited detachments
any LoW is allowed
prizes include a full Nurgle CSM/Daemon army and a Nurgle Chaos Knight conversion
[...]
wouldn't want anyone to be WAAC or anything!

Prizes for what? Best Sports? Best Painted? Or highest Battle Score? Best Overall?

If it's 'Best Overall', fine. That's the title you really want. Your army is well painted, you weren't a huge douche, and you got a pretty good Battle Score - even though you may not have taken 'first' in any of those categories individually (although that does help).

But, it could be much clearer.
Yes, I would like a 'full' army for the price of admission. What do I need to get it? Do I need to Paint/Theme my army, or do I need to win games?

You should probably e-mail the TO about WTF is he talking about.

Or, just be a regular tournament but with extra prizes for themed armies and best sportsman.

This. You should e-mail your TO and tell him that he's doing prizes wrong. Or, that maybe he doesn't understand how people react when prizes are on the line.

Since there no longer seems to be a Painting and Modeling thread, I might put them up here when I'm done.

It's what I'm doing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19876581&postcount=29). I thought about doing a dedicated thread for myself in the Arts & Crafts part of the Playground. But then I realised that nobody would care except for people in this thread anyway. So, yeah. Post all your pics in this thread. It's what I do. I should probably put a note about it in the OP.

Also, it's an ITC event for points, so expecting people to not go for ITC points just to be "friendly" is extra dumb.

*headdesk*
Playing for ITC Points automatically makes it a competitive event. Regardless of anything else that the TO otherwise wants.

EDIT: Hang on, how do you play for ITC Points if you aren't playing ITC Format?

Killer Angel

2015-09-29, 06:22 AM

EDIT: Hang on, how do you play for ITC Points if you aren't playing ITC Format?

1st hypothesis: Real life (failed) bluff.
2nd hypothesis: they have no idea of what they're doing.

Requizen

2015-09-29, 07:39 AM

Janwin

2015-09-29, 09:07 AM

Well, since this is the place to put up pictures...

I've started working on some AdMech, because they're awesome.

The first squad:

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/11855864_10101415436036875_5997220036541967072_n.j pg?oh=a93e8a13ddd0559ea35ef66c613a05d2&oe=569C9459

I still need to do the cog pattern on the squad leader and apply unit decals, but other than that done. Sorry for the poor quality picture.

I discovered painting this squad that I love GW's glaze paints. I'd never used them before, but the eye glow is from them, and on the back of the backpacks is a green light using the glaze and a red backlit gauge. The glaze paints work great for that stuff.

Cheesegear

2015-09-29, 06:32 PM

Not sure. They're using ITC FAQ, but that's about it. I don't think you have to follow the FLG ruleset exactly to be part of the Circuit, just be an event and register with them. Not sure how the process actually works.

That's...Odd. I know for a fact that in MtG, if you don't have your event in the proper format, you can't get it sanctioned. Therefore it 'doesn't count' as part of the circuit.

So...In order to get into an ITC Invitational (or whatever their equivalent is/will be), I just have to get a TO in some rinkydink store to hold 1000 Point tournaments that I can smash. Baby seals gets me into an Invitational event where I play with the cool kids?

Seems broke.

I discovered painting this squad that I love GW's glaze paints.

The way I do my yellow involves Lamenters' Yellow at the end. Flash Gitz Yellow is a Layer paint, and one of the more finnicky ones at that (because it's yellow). Water down a Layer paint, you're going to have to do three coats at least. Don't water it down, and you're going to have a bad time. Fact is, I only do one coat of Flash Gitz (Yes, I basecoat with a Layer paint), and there's no way in the Empryean that I can get a consistent coat...Ta-da! Lamenters' Yellow. It's the best. :smallbiggrin:

Requizen

2015-09-29, 07:01 PM

Well it says on the ITC page:

Please note, these guidelines are free to be used, or altered by individual Tournament Organizers to reflect the desires of their event attendees.

Seems that as long as you use their scoring system and guidelines (https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/) to return results, you can be an ITC event. In fact, I'm pretty sure the monthly events I've been going to are just as you said - put together for local people to pad their scores a bit and to get points for people who can't travel. Sub-16 people events give less points, though. Bigger events, more points.

On another note, what do you think of these two lists for the 1500 on Saturday:

CAD
Lord

Gauss Immortals x5 in Night Scythe
Tesla Immortals x5
Warriors x10

Wraiths x6
Wraiths x6
Wraiths x6

Heavy Destroyers x2
Heavy Destroyers x2
Heavy Destroyers x2

1500/1500

Pretty straightforward. 3 big units of Wraiths, Heavy Destroyers providing Lascannon fire as backup, Troops to squat objectives and a unit in the Night Scythe to snag last minute with ObSec and hide the Warlord.

Or

CAD
Destroyer Lord - Voidreaper

Tesla Immortals x5
Tesla Immortals x5

Wraiths x6
Wraiths x3
Wraiths x3

Heavy Destroyers x2
Heavy Destroyers x2
Heavy Destroyers x2

Canoptek Harvest
Wraiths x6 - Beamers
Scarabs x3
Spyder

1500/1500

More units on the board, though less ObSec. DLord hangs with Wraiths to give rerolls on the ID/Autopen on 6s gun. Small units of Wraiths are less strong, but can spread out more and used to tie things up for a turn. Less small-arms fire, but the Beamers have a chance to do real work against Wraithknights or other tough units.

Drasius

2015-09-30, 12:33 AM

Trade the destroyers from list 1 for some tomb blades and run a decurion with the wraiths in a harvest. Profit.

Alent

2015-09-30, 01:15 AM

A little hard to read, but here's the new Tau suit:

http://i.imgur.com/iJTZPmT.jpg

So, Tau needed a GC from both FW and GW. Fantastic.

Only T6 on a GC means it's a bit easier to wound,I suppose (though still FNP and resistance to Poison/Sniper). But W8 and... SQUADRON? Well, I guess it was only a matter of time before GC squadrons were a thing... thankfully most tournaments still are 0-1 LoWs (as it should be).

Surprisingly, the fire isn't as insane as I would have thought. Strength D gun, but only at 10 inches away. The other two modes aren't too bad considering Tau. The Pulse Driver Cannon option might be taken, as it has the range.

The anchor system is kinda interesting. Trade movement + Stomp for the ability to fire all guns twice (still unclear about whether GCs can fire all guns or just 2 - moving on). Potentially very scary, but a nice tradeoff. Overall, it's pretty strong and scary, but feels a lot more balanced than, say, some other GC in a GW book that I already complain about way too much.

GW, if this is the path we're going down, can Necrons please get a decent LoW option? Pretty please?

Is my lack of Tau experience making me mistake the stormsurge as useless?

I mean, right from the word go, my impressions are:
1: No supporting fire, but it's built around a point blank shotgun I'll never get to shoot at D-strength?
2: Seeker missiles with a new name so they can't use markerlights? What?
3: More S:5 AP:5 spam, why, Unicron, why do you torture me?!
4: The guys are already laughing about how at T6 they can kill this with bolters.
5: Oh, that Anchor means more parking lot play. That's... not cool.
6: Wait, where's the Jet Pack special rule?

I mean... aside from S:5 AP:5 spam it doesn't seem very Tau.

Requizen

2015-09-30, 07:35 AM

Trade the destroyers from list 1 for some tomb blades and run a decurion with the wraiths in a harvest. Profit.

I'd love to, but you can only have one unit of Wraiths per Harvest and I want to bring all of them. Not enough points to bring Reclamation Legion + Harvest + CAD with 2 full Wraith units, sadly.

Edit: 1529 points for it. If I run 1 less Wraith, it can fit, but that's everything completely stock: no Ignores Cover on the TBlades, no Wargear on the HQs, min units. I dunno if that's worth it.

LeSwordfish

2015-09-30, 01:57 PM

Another battle report! First time against Dark Angels.

Armies
Fire Hawks
First Company Formation
Squad Goneril: 10 x Sternguard Veterans - 2x Meltas, 7x Combi-Meltas, Drop Pod - 345
Squad Cordelius: 8 x Sternguard Veterans - 2x Plasma Guns, Combi-plasma, drop pod - 251
Squad Regan: 10x Sternguard Veterans - 2x Heavy Flamers, Drop Pod - 295

Space Marines CAD
Librarian - Terminator Armor, Storm Shield, Mastery Level 2 - 125 (Warlord)
Tactical Squad - Combi-flamer, flamer, Drop Pod - 120
Scout Squad - Combi-melta, Land Speeder Storm (Heavy Flamer) - 105
Scout Squad - Combi-melta, Land Speeder Storm (Heavy Flamer) - 105
Stormtalon - Skyhammer Missile Launcher - 115
Drop Pod - 35

Same as before. I decide to stick with Imperial Fists CTs for another game.

Dark Angels, Gladius (Angel Edition)
Battle Demi-Company
Company Master - Artificier Armor, Combi-Plasma, relic blade
Tactical Squad x10 - Multi-Melta, Melta, powersword(?), Rhino (HK Missile)
Tactical Squad x5 - Power maul, plasma pistol, plasma gun
Tactical Squad x5 - Power sword, plasma pistol, plasma gun
Devastator Squad x5 - 2x Plasma cannon, 2x Missile Launcher, Flakk Missile
Assault Squad x5 - Powersword, Plasma pistol, flamer
Dreadnought - Assault cannon

Inner Circle
Librarian - Power field (Warlord)

Ravenwing
8(?)x Ravenwing bikers - attack bike (multi-melta), 2x Plasma guns
Ravenwing mega-plasma land speeder

Lots of scary plasma, lots of scary stuff that goes straight through my armor, but otherwise its not so bad. That land speeder is terrifying, as are the bikes, but there's some wierd decisions here, probably based on the model restrictions - why no combi-weapons? Why is the librarian the warlord?

Far too much of what he's firing is going through my armor though, and there's no way to kill all his plasma on turn one. As for my Extremis choice... the librarian is the warlord and the buff factory, so I choose him.

(Alpha strike priorities: warlords, buff-ers, things that do a lot of damage, things that will be difficult to kill later.)

Deployment
He nominates that I should deploy and play first. I've got a null deployment, but I still need to roll warlord traits and powers for my librarian - I decide to try out the Crimson Fists list. Preferred enemy (Orks). Re-roll. Preferred Enemy (Orks). So much for that list. I roll divination and get Perfect Timing and Forewarning, which are probably the best ones? Its cool.

He gets some meaningless powers and traits, and spreads out in a line across the board - Speeder at one end, and from left to right: Tacticals with librarian, Rhino with melta-tacticals, assault marines, tacticals with company master, devastators, and finally the ravenwing. Both ravenwing and speeder scout forward, and the game begins.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/Battle%20reports/My%20Ideas%20-%2015.png

Turn One
I bring on the librarian and squad Cordelius, aimed at his librarian, but they scatter badly backwards to in front of the rhino. By stretching the 6" deployment i can just get them within rapid-fire range still, but i'm uncomfortably bunched up and there are plasma cannons everywhere. Guess I just need to kill them all! Squad Goneril don't scatter, and split up to cover both the speeder and the rhino: Squad Regan do the same: heavy flamers front at the devastators, while the attack bike and one plasma gun are at the back of the ravenwing: I put the other combat squad there to take best advantage of that.

Its scary to see how little I have on the field, but I start psyking anyway. The librarian still gets off Forewarning and Prescience on his own unit, and I fire everything at his librarian and the small tactical squad. Vengeance rounds first - despite re-rolls one blows himself up- kill four tactical marines, and the plasma guns kill the sargeant. The librarian tanks a pair of plasma hits, but stays standing thanks to the power field: One combat squad of Goneril decides to target him instead of the rhino, and their meltagun causes instant death and power fields are only a 4+. First Blood and Slay The Warlord, that'll do nicely thanks.

Goneril's other combat squad fires at the speeder, but it Jinks and I can only take two hull points - it can't fire it's blastgun though.

https://media.giphy.com/media/JNrWNUUNZlIhG/giphy.gif

Finally squad Regan fires - four devastators, the attack bike and the ravenwing plasma gunner die. No more unit kills - so they'll be slaughtered in return - but some important things are dead. Sometimes you take what you can get.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/Battle%20reports/My%20Ideas%20-%205.png

He starts his turn by dropping the dreadnought behind Cordelius and Goneril - no scatter, no matter - and advances everything towards where the nearest unit is, which in the case of the bikes means backwards. There's a lot of shooting, and it hurts. The bikes kill the entire combat squad that targeted them, but the devastator and Company Master's squad only manage to kill three of the remainder of squad Regan. Fire from the assault squad, dreadnought, and tacticals in the rhino reduce squad Cordelius to only the librarian and plasma gunners, and to add insult to injury a storm bolter shot from the drop pod sneaks through the librarian's armor and takes off a wound. The plasma-speeder is shaken, so can only fire Snap Shots, but can only get one wound through Goneril's cover to kill the sargeant.

Most things have fired rapid-fire weapons so can't assault, but the assault squad can and do. Re-rollable plasma fire on overwatch kills one of them - and I re-roll a one into a one so I kill one of my own too. They fail the assault but re-roll into a success - it would have been great if they failed due to my own casualty, but alas, Lady Irony doth not smile today. The librarian challenges the assault sergeant - I can penetrate his armor and he can't penetrate mine, so i've got this, right? Its a cinch? Apparently no: two ap3 attacks fail to wound, while the assault Sergeant gets another wound through goddamn terminator armor and that's Slay The Warlord to him. The three remaining marines get together and punch the last Sternguard to death, before consolidating back towards the objective.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/Battle%20reports/My%20Ideas%20-%206.png

Turn Two
I have plenty of reserves to roll - one speeder, the talon, and the empty drop pod all arrive. Empty pod lands on an objective - third no-scatter of the game, I need to use this particular scatter dice more - 'Talon arrives from the left, Speeder and its crew from the right. The storm opens up on the ravenwing squad - heavy flamer, cerberus launcher, meltagun, and four boltguns. I never expect much from my scouts, but all that firepower leaves only one biker alive - with a plasma gun but still, wow. The talon and the last two members of squad Regan shoot the company master's squad - killing all but the plasma gunner and the master himself, and knocking a wound off with a rending assault cannon shot. Gonerils's meltagun blows up the plasma-speeder - thank christ - and fails to damage the dreadnought, despite four melta-shots at close range. I consider charging it, but it can still fight back, and Krak grenades are only glancing it: better stick to cover and keep melta-ing.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/Battle%20reports/My%20Ideas%20-%207.png

In his turn, the first thing he does is move the assault marines onto the central objective, deep into a particularly dense patch of cover. Similarly the surviving devastator heads for cover, as does the company master and his buddy. The tactical marines deploy from their rhino, and the survivor of the ravenwing (that's the finest bikers in the Imperium, shot to death by a bunch of trainees) boosts back across the board, headed towards the objective and into the Storm's side armor. It can't damage the storm, though it forces it to jink (hooray... question mark?). The disembarked tacticals and dreadnought shoot the nearer combat squad from squad Goneril, without much effect, and the rhino misses the Stormtalon with a hunter-killer missile, so ten points well spent there.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/Battle%20reports/My%20Ideas%20-%208.png

End of turn two, it's the point of the game where everything seems to go wrong and i have so few things on the board and oh no problems!

Turn Three
Turn three, the pod of tacticals arrives. The assault squad is firmly entrenched on the central objective: guess a couple of flamers are what's needed there, right? Only a few inches scatter this time, something I can correct with a lucky Move Through Cover roll, which I don't get, and the squad deploys in base contact with their pod like losers. The stormtalon turns and races to the only place it can - facing directly away from the battle, like a loser. (Fun fact: I use a lightly-converted Nephilim jetfighter as a Stormtalon, because who wouldn't, and its only much later that I remember it's assault cannon is on a turret mount.) The land speeder has jinked, so it can't effectively shoot, but it can whizz backwards into cover so it needn't jink again.

In my shooting phase, the last survivor of Regan kills the plasma gunner that was accompanying the Company Master. The devastator is closer to the objective, but can't move and fire, is in cover, and everything's got Objective Secured - I might as well kill off the more damaging things. A flamer and combi-flamer hit the Assault Marines, but even with bolter backup that doesn't kill any but the sargeant and oh god I miss being Salamanders. (On a serious note, i'm getting a lot of mileage out of Bolter Drill.) Over on the other flank, Goneril moves towards the objectives, still firing meltaguns at the dreadnought - they can stun it but still no serious damage. This thing has no cover or special protection by the way - I just can't hit it, or roll four on 2d6.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/Battle%20reports/My%20Ideas%20-%209.png

His turn three, the rhino moves over and picks up the company master - that flank of the board is lost, and his punch might be needed on the other. The devastator peremptorily kills the guy who decided not to shoot him, which teaches me a lesson. The tactical squad move forward a bit and try and kill the drop pod, and both the last Ravenwing biker and the assault squad charge the tactical marines. They don't take any wounds from overwatch, but kill the sargeant with hammer of wrath and another marine with straightforward killing. The biker Hits and Runs away past the drop pod, headed again for the Land speeder that killed his entire squad and oh no this guy is the hero isn't he? He's going to be the goddamn protagonist.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/Battle%20reports/My%20Ideas%20-%2010.png

Turn Four
On turn four my other Storm finally arrives - i'm hoping for it to turn up in the right place to drop heavy flamers and large blasts onto the tactical squad, but the dice say otherwise and it comes on from the other side of the board. It's full firepower is overkill against the one surviving devastator, but overkill is the best kind of kill when someone has Objective Secured and a plasma cannon. For now, the scouts are safer embarked. The talon has to again work at a wierd angle, but i do remember the assault cannon this time - and finally the assault cannon and melta together kill the damn dreadnought. The storm is no longer jinking, so manages to kill the last of the bikers - oops, not the protagonist any more - and the assault marines somehow fail to wound the last of my tactical marines. That can't last long though, and there's a plasma pistol and flamer in that squad just waiting to mess something up.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/Battle%20reports/My%20Ideas%20-%2011.png

The company master races towards the tactical squad and squad Goneril, who they can only reduce down to one veteran thanks to the cover. The assault squad keep fighting - but the last tactical manages to stay alive again.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/Battle%20reports/My%20Ideas%20-%2012.png

(Looking at the map, I realise I forgot the stormtalon: It never does anything of particular use again so don't worry about it.)

Turn Five
Last turn, maybe - time to start being on objectives. One storm deploys it's scouts on the nearer objective and then races forward towards the tacticals, while the other speeds onto the central objective. Both remaining scraps of Goneril move onto objectives - the sargeant (the only one on the top left objective) fires vengeance poison rounds at the tactical squad (I am not exploding myself off the objective) and kills one, and a maximum-range cerberus shot from the storm manages to blind them! LOL! I love this army. And the assault marines still can't kill the last tactical marine. (He's not done any casualties either, mind).

The company master runs onto the central objective to take on the scouts, and the blinded tacticals can't hit Goneril's sargeant - they don't need to, mind, they're objective secured. The company master charges the storm on the objective, and kills it with his relic blade - due to it's positioning, when the scouts pile out they're just a shade too far from the objective and the assault marines kill the tactical squad and oh no problems!!!

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/Battle%20reports/My%20Ideas%20-%2013.png

Does the game continue? Yes. Still all to lose.

Turn Six
The storm itself is objective secured, so it jumps on top of the company master's objective, and the forcibly disembarked scouts shuffle within range and he can only kill one of them... probably? Goneril kills another tactical with poison (again, lol) and the scouts shoot the company master, more in hope than expectation. He's got a 2+/4++, two wounds remaining, and... he fails three armor saves? This scout squad -the same one that slaughtered the Ravenwing - just killed a company master of the first legion. Niiiiiiice. That deserves a name, I think.

It's irrelevant though, since the rhino can force itself into the ruins and onto the objective. The assault marines move to contest the other one from the drop pod, and the tactical marines successfully detonate Goneril's drop pod with their meltaguns. The explosion doesn't kill him, though, and the game ends.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/Battle%20reports/My%20Ideas%20-%2014.png

I hold two objectives, he holds two, and the central one is contested. I have first blood, slay the warlord and a linebreaking drop pod - and despite the map his assault squad aren't quite linebreaking, so he only has slay the warlord. Nine-Seven, a narrow victory to me.

Its a good list, but it's waay too vulnerable to being killed in the first turn. If the alpha strike whiffs even slightly, i've got thirty 3+ save models against the entire enemy list.

I should maybe swap the flamer/combi-flamer for a plasmagun, and use the Objective Secured pod to claim points. Or give up on the idea of that tactical squad entirely and take something else instead - scout bikers? Ordinary scouts? Eighty-five points of sniper scouts isn't much worth putting on the board by itself in an otherwise null deployment (and they can't shoot when they arrive from reserve), or should I spend those points on bolter scouts to ride in the pod? I think putting all three sternguard squads on the board at once is good, and dropping the pods entirely would be a false economy.

So, Shakespearean guys... and they killed Angels. Juliet was referred to as an angel... who killed Juliet? Juliet did. (spoiler alert). Who else? Romeo, Friar Lawrence, Paris... I already named a scout sergeant (technically a pilot) Paris, didn't I? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19064324&postcount=1276) That works.

Cheesegear

2015-09-30, 06:12 PM

Why is the librarian the warlord?

But you have a Librarian as Warlord.

He nominates that I should deploy and play first. I've got a null deployment, but I still need to roll warlord traits and powers for my librarian

Fun fact; You're supposed to roll Powers around the same time that you roll for the Mission and Deployment styles.
You don't roll Warlord until you Deploy. Which means that you don't roll Warlord Traits at the same time. One player rolls before they Deploy, and the other before they do.

I roll divination and get Perfect Timing and Forewarning, which are probably the best ones? Its cool.

Pretty much, yes. If you play with MOs and a lot of Reserves, Scrier's Gaze is handy.

I never expect much from my scouts
[...]
(that's the finest bikers in the Imperium, shot to death by a bunch of trainees)

Can't you see that your models are trying to impress you? Your models are doing their best, and they're still a disappointment to you? Great parenting.

It's full firepower is overkill against the one surviving devastator

With the Imperium, there's no such thing as 'Overkill', only *Nuke* "I think we got 'im".

So, Shakespearean guys... and they killed Angels. Juliet was referred to as an angel... who killed Juliet? Juliet did. (spoiler alert).

Wait, who is getting Named?

LeSwordfish

2015-10-01, 01:44 AM

But you have a Librarian as Warlord.

My librarian has a 2+/3++ and is the only character in my army. His librarian is singularly worse, and he had a company master right there- why isn't he riding a bike, trolling with the ravenwing, and being T5/2+/3++? Is the inner circle a mandatory part of the DA gladius because I'd lose the librarian completely for that.

Fun fact; You're supposed to roll Powers around the same time that you roll for the Mission and Deployment styles.
You don't roll Warlord until you Deploy. Which means that you don't roll Warlord Traits at the same time. One player rolls before they Deploy, and the other before they do.

Can you cite that first part? The rule book says "before the game begins"- as far as I'm concerned that means I can roll whenever, from StI to the week before.

Pretty much, yes. If you play with MOs and a lot of Reserves, Scrier's Gaze is handy.

I also find myself missing the full-BS Overwatch. I get charged a lot. We also never bothered with mysterious objectives.

Wait, who is getting Named?

The scouts who killed the ravenwing and the company master. Or the sargeant, at least.

Tehnar

2015-10-01, 03:26 AM

I thought you roll Warlord traits just before you can deploy.

So player 1 wins first turn. He then rolls warlord traits whatever else. He can now choose to go first or second.
Player 2 rolls for traits right before he deploys. Basically before the losing player deploys, he should know the warlord trait and psychic powers of player 1.

Otherwise some warlord traits would make no sense. Specifically the Harlequin Light table where you have a warlord trait that gives you a +4 to steal the initative. Fairly pointless if you roll that before you know who will go first.

Col.Straken

2015-10-01, 04:05 AM

Usually we roll Warlord and Powers at the same time, after deciding sides and who is going first/second.

Drasius

2015-10-01, 04:28 AM

Is my lack of Tau experience making me mistake the stormsurge as useless?

I mean, right from the word go, my impressions are:
1: No supporting fire, but it's built around a point blank shotgun I'll never get to shoot at D-strength?
2: Seeker missiles with a new name so they can't use markerlights? What?
3: More S:5 AP:5 spam, why, Unicron, why do you torture me?!
4: The guys are already laughing about how at T6 they can kill this with bolters.
5: Oh, that Anchor means more parking lot play. That's... not cool.
6: Wait, where's the Jet Pack special rule?

I mean... aside from S:5 AP:5 spam it doesn't seem very Tau.

Either that or my lack of driving tau and only being on the recieving end colours my perceptions.

1: Bubblewrap him with some kroot and he'll be fine. You alsmot certainly will get to shoot str D since it's a GC, it's got a 12" move IIRC. Doesn't lack of supporting fire only mean it can't shoot overwatch, but other supporting fire unit can overwatch if it gets charged?
2: Depends on the new 'Dex, have to wait and see.
3: I'm guessing it's for the Enclaves players out there with a shortage of Str 5 AP5 since people don't want to "waste" crisis suits by giving them burst cannons or gun drones.
4: Then I suggest they actually roll out how they're going to kill this with bolters, since it's going to take a billion shots (actualy, "only" 324 at BS4 with no re-rolls, fleshbane or rending). Believe me, as someone who often has to resort to firing bolters at monsterous creatures, it doesn't work, even when those bolters are AP3.
5: Again, I suspect this is more for a farsight army, so they've got a strong point that can reach out and open vehicles so they don't have to gamble on DS fusion crisis or farsight bomb to do more than peel the paint off a land raider. Even then, it's still an 8W T6 fearless GC. Tau could use this to tie up less killy deathstars for a while (I'm looking at you screamer star) and it's still got stomps (assuming it unanchors) to have a chance at just flatout removing stuff.
6: Given that it's meant to be a weapons platform more than a battle suit, the fluff doesn't fit, so it doesn't have one. Don't get me wrong, it seems rather un-tau-like (can you double hyphen a word?), but this is what GW has given us.

I think the main thing people are forgetting is that it's a 72" demolisher cannon in an army with laughably easy access to ignores cover and no other options to actually hurt AV14 or double out T5 multi wound models, which are the new standard by which everything is measured. And then it fires twice on turn 2.

Grav cents are over if this thing can take interceptor. It will get to fire before they can get invis up and remove every one of them without the risk of gets hot like an IA riptide. Not to mention even if you land 2 groups of pod cents and 1 gets to fire, even with re-rolls to hit, those 3 cents will "only" do 4 wounds to it (assuming it's either got a toe in cover, has bought a shield generator or is on a skyshield).

It's not a wraithknight, no, but it's also not terrible and brings something to the table that the rest of the tau 'dex doesn't have at the moment. Don't get me wrong, when the new 'dex drops and a squadron of 3 hammerheads can combine fire for a heavy1 Str D large blast, then this thing will look like crap, but until then it has its uses. I might even venture far enough to say that it looks modeately balanced.

Keep in mind that it's big weapons are pulse weapons, so wait and see what keeping an etherial nearby can do. Maybe it is omgwtfbbq broken after all?

LeSwordfish

2015-10-01, 04:31 AM

I wrote this up as a list, actually (tailored for my own army):

Roll mission
Deploy Terrain
Roll and Deploy objectives
Roll deployment zone
Roll off: Winner chooses deployment order.
Choose Extremis Threat (for First Company Formation)
* Generate Psychic Powers
First Player to deploy:

Declares combat squads
Rolls warlord traits
Declares reserves
Declares deep strikers
Declares Outflankers
Actually places models.

As above, but for second player.
Deploy infiltrators
Roll off, winner decides who goes first, alternate

Scout movements
First player to deploy chooses who has first turn

Sieze The Initiative
Begin

You'll notice that Psychic Powers aren't anywhere on here, since the rulebook says: Actually, now I look it up, there is indeed a case for this, on page 510 in the "Core Rules" section: "Before The Game Begins" is "before the armies deploy for battle" and psychic powers are specifically cited for that. But that's armies, plural, and it also cites Warlord traits which are, on page 753, rolled "immediately before you deploy the first unit in your army" so I guess the lesson here is why was I expecting consistency anyway?

(I wrote this list up, incidentally, when I spotted the Strategic warlord trait that forced pinning checks on units at the start of their first turn, and wanted to know if I could choose Telepathy powers to capitalise on that - apparently not.)

EDIT:

1: Bubblewrap him with some kroot and he'll be fine. You alsmot certainly will get to shoot str D since it's a GC, it's got a 12" move IIRC. Doesn't lack of supporting fire only mean it can't shoot overwatch, but other supporting fire unit can overwatch if it gets charged?

Supporting fire is needed on both the unit supporting and being supported- in the current codex at least. Who knows what the new one will be like?

Cheesegear

2015-10-01, 07:47 AM

Usually we roll Warlord and Powers at the same time, after deciding sides and who is going first/second.

Yeah, and you shouldn't. It's most obvious with the Strategic Table (y'know, the best one), if you already know that your opponent can do something on the Strategic Table (pick any of them, really), you should probably think about Deploying your units differently. If I know beforehand that Second Player has auto-Night Fight Warlord Trait, I am definitely deploying differently to if I don't know that it's auto-Night Fight because he shouldn't be rolling his Warlord Trait before/while I'm deploying. If my opponent has -1 to my Reserves, I'm going to put less things in Reserve. If I don't know what my opponent will roll - because who does? - then I will put all the things that I normally put in Reserve, and then Second Player rolls his Trait and I'm screwed - it totally matters.

I'll admit, the 'correct order of operations' (see LeSwordfish's post, only thing missing is Shaking Hands before the Seize the Initative roll, and making it clear that Night Fighting is resolved at the beginning of Turn 1 and at no time before) doesn't matter to most people. But, some players will reach a point in their career where not knowing your opponent's Warlord Trait is kind of a huge deal.

LeSwordfish

2015-10-01, 08:09 AM

Night fighting is another thing I never use and thus forgot. Order of operations is like a lot of things, I think: you can play fast and loose with it if neither of you takes advantage of it, but if one of you does, it's going to hurt.

Col.Straken

2015-10-01, 08:36 AM

Yeah, and you shouldn't. It's most obvious with the Strategic Table (y'know, the best one), if you already know that your opponent can do something on the Strategic Table (pick any of them, really), you should probably think about Deploying your units differently. If I know beforehand that Second Player has auto-Night Fight Warlord Trait, I am definitely deploying differently to if I don't know that it's auto-Night Fight because he shouldn't be rolling his Warlord Trait before/while I'm deploying. If my opponent has -1 to my Reserves, I'm going to put less things in Reserve. If I don't know what my opponent will roll - because who does? - then I will put all the things that I normally put in Reserve, and then Second Player rolls his Trait and I'm screwed - it totally matters.

I'll admit, the 'correct order of operations' (see LeSwordfish's post, only thing missing is Shaking Hands before the Seize the Initative roll, and making it clear that Night Fighting is resolved at the beginning of Turn 1 and at no time before) doesn't matter to most people. But, some players will reach a point in their career where not knowing your opponent's Warlord Trait is kind of a huge deal.

I don't think I explained myself in that short sentence clearly. We roll for mission/deployment, then for who will pick sides/deploy first. Then before anything is put on the table by either side we roll all our powers/traits. Usually at the same time so no-one gets the advantage of "Oh you got that, I am going to try and roll this to counter it" (not that there are many of those cases)

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-10-01, 02:49 PM

Janwin

2015-10-01, 03:30 PM

So, I've been fiddling around with Sisters of Battle, because why the heck not? I've always liked them, and a local Kill Team league gives me an excuse to actually start acquiring some.

Would love feedback on it from anyone with any familiarity with Sisters.

HQ:

Uriah Jacobus - 100 pts (Warlord)

No Force Org Slot:

Ministorum Priest; The Book of St. Lucius - 30 pts
Ministorum Priest; Storm Bolter - 30 pts

Troops:

Battle Sister Squad; 19 Sisters, Sister Superior w/ Storm Bolter, Simulacrum Imperialis, Storm Bolter, Heavy Bolter - 270 pts
Battle Sister Squad; 4 Sisters, Sister Superior, Storm Bolter, Heavy Bolter - 75 pts

Fast Attack:

Dominion Squad; 5 Dominions, Veteran Dominion Superior w/ Combi-Melta, Simulacrum Imperialis, 4x Meltagun, Immolator w/ Twin-Linked Multi-Melta, Dozer Blade, Laud Hailer and Storm Bolter - 228 pts
Dominion Squad; 5 Dominions, Veteran Dominion Superior w/ Combi-Melta, Simulacrum Imperialis, 4x Meltagun, Immolator w/ Twin-Linked Multi-Melta, Dozer Blade, Laud Hailer and Storm Bolter - 228 pts
Seraphim Squad; 4 Seraphim, Seraphim Superior w/ Power Sword & Melta Bombs, 2x Two Hand Flamers - 125 pts

Heavy Support:

Exorcist; Laud Hailer, Storm Bolter - 140 pts
Exorcist; Laud Hailer, Storm Bolter - 140 pts
Retributor Squad; 5 Retributor, Veteran Retributor Superior, Simulacrum Imperialis, 4x Heavy Bolter

Total: 1498 pts

The idea is to have the Book of St. Lucius in the small Battle Sister Squad, able to catch any sisters that happen to fall back from combat or shooting and get them back into the fight.

The two Dominion Squads are on anti-vehicle duty.

The Retributors can thin out hordes with their heavy bolters.

The other priest and Uriah go with the big Battle Sister Squad, which can either lock down objectives or push objectives as a nice tarpit.

The Seraphim are for maneuvering, helping gain objectives in maelstrom, and for supporting units that need some help in assault.

Cristo Meyers

2015-10-01, 03:43 PM

HQ:

Uriah Jacobus - 100 pts (Warlord)

Always a good choice. Who doesn't love a crotchedy shotgun toting priest?

Ministorum Priest; The Book of St. Lucius - 30 pts
Ministorum Priest; Storm Bolter - 30 pts

Wouldn't bother with the storm bolter.

Troops:

Battle Sister Squad; 19 Sisters, Sister Superior w/ Storm Bolter, Simulacrum Imperialis, Storm Bolter, Heavy Bolter - 270 pts
Battle Sister Squad; 4 Sisters, Sister Superior, Storm Bolter, Heavy Bolter - 75 pts

I'd make two 10 woman squads and put them in a Repressor (forge world). Large blobs get unwieldy really quick and smaller ones just get wiped out. Usually you want flamers/heavy flamers in these squads. Your Retributors are already providing heavy bolter fire, and heavy flamers are Assault 1 rather than Heavy.

Fast Attack:

Dominion Squad; 5 Dominions, Veteran Dominion Superior w/ Combi-Melta, Simulacrum Imperialis, 4x Meltagun, Immolator w/ Twin-Linked Multi-Melta, Dozer Blade, Laud Hailer and Storm Bolter - 228 pts
Dominion Squad; 5 Dominions, Veteran Dominion Superior w/ Combi-Melta, Simulacrum Imperialis, 4x Meltagun, Immolator w/ Twin-Linked Multi-Melta, Dozer Blade, Laud Hailer and Storm Bolter - 228 pts
Seraphim Squad; 4 Seraphim, Seraphim Superior w/ Power Sword & Melta Bombs, 2x Two Hand Flamers - 125 pts

I'd drop the dozer blades and the seraphim. Seraphim are really only useful if you're using Celestine, and usually not even then. 125 points is enough to get more Battle Sisters to use in the same support role.

Heavy Support:

Exorcist; Laud Hailer, Storm Bolter - 140 pts
Exorcist; Laud Hailer, Storm Bolter - 140 pts
Retributor Squad; 5 Retributor, Veteran Retributor Superior, Simulacrum Imperialis, 4x Heavy Bolter

Most people would say go with three Exorcists, that's about the only thing I can say here. The Laud Hailers probably won't do you much good. They're only 12" range, so how often are the bulk of your units going to be around something that is sitting at the rear of the table launching Pipe Organ Missiles?

The idea is to have the Book of St. Lucius in the small Battle Sister Squad, able to catch any sisters that happen to fall back from combat or shooting and get them back into the fight.

The two Dominion Squads are on anti-vehicle duty.

The Retributors can thin out hordes with their heavy bolters.

The other priest and Uriah go with the big Battle Sister Squad, which can either lock down objectives or push objectives as a nice tarpit.

The Seraphim are for maneuvering, helping gain objectives in maelstrom, and for supporting units that need some help in assault.

Priests grant Zealot, so if they're in your Battle Sister squads them falling back is probably not going to happen.

I would cut the laud hailers off of the Exorcists, the dozer blades, and the Seraphim and invest them in more battle sisters or Repressors for the squads you have. They put the rules for the Repressor out in a pdf somewhere, it usually comes up with a quick Google search, and it's pretty easy to convert (or just proxy a Rhino).

Blackhawk748

2015-10-01, 05:05 PM

Everything Cristo said, Storm Bolters arent good for Sisters, because Flamers are freakin everywhere. If you wanna give you Priest a fancy gun give him a Plasma Gun, you will be much happier, i was.

Heres my Core Sisters army

Decent of Angels

Sisters of Battle, CAD
HQ
(W) Uriah Jacobus - 100 Points

Troops
Battle Sisters (x10); Flamer, Heavy Flamer - 135 Points
Battle Sisters (x10); Flamer, Heavy Flamer - 135 Points

Fast Attack
Dominions (x6) - 193 Points
Simulacrum Imperialis, x4 Meltaguns
+ Immolator; Storm Bolter, Laud Hailer

Dominions (x6) - 193 Points
Simulacrum Imperialis, x4 Meltaguns
+ Immolator; Storm Bolter, Laud Hailer

Heavy Support
Exorcist - 135 Points
Exorcist - 135 Points
Exorcist - 135 Points

Fortification
Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad-gun-100

Total: 1281 Points

Sisters Allies
HQ
Canoness; Boltgun-65

Troops
Battle Sisters (x10); Flamer, Heavy Flamer - 135 Points
Battle Sisters (x10); Flamer, Heavy Flamer - 135 Points

Heavy Support
Retributors (x6); Heavy Bolters (x4), Simulacrum Imperialis-122

Total: 457

Total 1718

this is a decent TAC list i use for casual. It works ok and you can mess around with stuff as you see fit. Last game i dropped a Sisters squad and added like 3 priests. Note that i said casual dont take this to a tournament and expect to curbstomp anyone.

Heres a Repressor FYI

http://image.bolterandchainsword.com/uploads/gallery/album_9750/gallery_70393_9750_42136.jpg

Its a Rhino with a Dozrblade and an extra Box on top. I may convert my Rhinos.....

Cheesegear

2015-10-01, 05:35 PM

I don't think I explained myself in that short sentence clearly. We roll for mission/deployment, then for who will pick sides/deploy first. Then before anything is put on the table by either side we roll all our powers/traits. Usually at the same time so no-one gets the advantage of "Oh you got that, I am going to try and roll this to counter it" (not that there are many of those cases)

I knew what you meant, I see people do it all the time. It's still wrong. First Player is not supposed to know Second Player's Warlord Trait until SP Deploys. 'Rolling for counters' is the point.

EDIT: Deploying second is a huge advantage, because having the first turn is a huge advantage. They offset each other. If you deny what makes Deploying second actually good, well...

Drasius

2015-10-01, 05:43 PM

Truth

This

Heres my Core Sisters army

Decent of Angels

Sisters of Battle, CAD
HQ
(W) Uriah Jacobus - 100 Points

Troops
Battle Sisters (x10); Flamer, Heavy Flamer - 135 Points
Battle Sisters (x10); Flamer, Heavy Flamer - 135 Points

Fast Attack
Dominions (x6) - 203 Points
Simulacrum Imperialis, x4 Meltaguns
+ Immolator; Storm Bolter, Laud Hailer

Dominions (x6) - 203 Points
Simulacrum Imperialis, x4 Meltaguns
+ Immolator; Storm Bolter, Laud Hailer

Heavy Support
Exorcist - 135 Points
Exorcist - 135 Points
Exorcist - 135 Points

Fortification
Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad-gun-100

Total: 1281 Points

Sisters Allies
HQ
Canoness; Boltgun-65

Troops
Battle Sisters (x10); Flamer, Heavy Flamer - 135 Points
Battle Sisters (x10); Flamer, Heavy Flamer - 135 Points

Heavy Support
Retributors (x6); Heavy Bolters (x4), Simulacrum Imperialis-122

Total: 457

Total 1738

this is a decent TAC list i use for casual. It works ok and you can mess around with stuff as you see fit. Last game i dropped a Sisters squad and added like 3 priests. Note that i said casual dont take this to a tournament and expect to curbstomp anyone.
[/SPOILER]

On a decnicality, that sisters list is not legal, since your allied detachment can't have the same faction as your primary, but since you've already got a HQ and 2 troops, technically it's just a second CAD. You can't drop that 2nd sisters squad though.

Also, your immolators are 10 points over each.

Blackhawk748

2015-10-01, 06:54 PM

On a decnicality, that sisters list is not legal, since your allied detachment can't have the same faction as your primary, but since you've already got a HQ and 2 troops, technically it's just a second CAD. You can't drop that 2nd sisters squad though.

Also, your immolators are 10 points over each.

Since when?

Really? Not sure how that happened.... well whatever, its fixed now.

Edit: On an entirely Un-Sisters related note, what are the big lists for Tzeentch Daemons? Is it still Flying Circus and Dirty Magic, because im not huge fans of either of those.

Drasius

2015-10-01, 11:36 PM

Since when?

Really? Not sure how that happened.... well whatever, its fixed now.

Edit: On an entirely Un-Sisters related note, what are the big lists for Tzeentch Daemons? Is it still Flying Circus and Dirty Magic, because im not huge fans of either of those.

Since 6th.

And yeah, flying circus and screamerstar, same as always. If you don't like flying creatures and magic, well, tzeentch was never for you since that's the majority of his portfolio.

Cheesegear

2015-10-02, 03:31 AM

On an entirely Un-Sisters related note, what are the big lists for Tzeentch Daemons? Is it still Flying Circus and Dirty Magic, because im not huge fans of either of those.

lolwat.
There are no Tzeentch HQs without Mastery Levels. There are no Tzeentch Troops without Mastery Levels. If you're playing Tzeentch, you're playing the Psychic Phase. If you don't like Magic, then you probably don't actually like Tzeentch - magic is kind of a big deal to him.

There might be something to say about Deep Striking Flamers of Tzeentch down and dropping AP4 Templates all over the board. But, without Cursed Earth up, it's pretty much doomed to fail (you'll need Psykers for Cursed Earth). That said, Flamers are still Jump Infantry and can move fast, particularly if you've got the second turn and/or your opponent has Scouted on you. At 23 points apiece, Flamers aren't terrible. But...I guess they're something.

Screamers are basically a mandatory part of most Daemon armies; Slashing Attacks can hit Invisible units and make a right mess of random Culexus Assassins - or any single-model unit, really, but mostly Screamers are a silver bullet against Culexi. Screamers also come with Armourbane 'Power Axes'. AP2 is neat. But Armourbane is basically required since Daemons is a very weak Codex vs. Vehicles. Either way, a major part of the Screamers is as an HQ bunker, and get significantly better with Cursed Earth activated, but so do all Daemons, but Tzeentch has the re-rolls.
On the plus side - I suppose, for the purposes of this discussion only - Screamers neither Fly nor have Mastery Levels.

Burning Chariots of Tzeentch are a joke. Paying 100 Points for what amounts to a Land Speeder is...Not good, and even Space Marines don't take Land Speeders anyway, 'cause they're bad. But, mostly any Heavy choice that isn't a Daemon Prince or a Soul Grinder is fairly terrible - and the latter is still questionable anyway.

Since 6th.

Benefit of the doubt, up until July (?), the ITC allowed armies to Ally with themselves, but, they changed that rule ~four months ago. Even then, that's ITC and not anything that you'd find in the rulebook; If you're reading the rulebook, it's fairly clear how Allied Detachments work.

Drasius

2015-10-02, 04:31 AM

l... Screamers neither Fly nor have Mastery Levels.

Burning Chariots of Tzeentch are a joke. Paying 100 Points for what amounts to a Land Speeder is...Not good, and even Space Marines don't take Land Speeders anyway, 'cause they're bad. But, mostly any Heavy choice that isn't a Daemon Prince or a Soul Grinder is fairly terrible - and the latter is still questionable anyway.

Screamers are literally flying manta rays (with melta axes for teeth). And in game terms, jetbikes are about the closest thing to flying non flying units you can get.

The burning chariot is a much maligned beast I feel. That torrent Str 5 AP3 flamer does some serious work, though the d3 lascannons shots with 18" range and BS are a bad joke. The fact that it's a daemon chariot also means that when if gets penn'ed, it basically blows up or nothing happens since it ignores stunned/shaken, weapon destroyed --> immobilised since it doesn't have any weapons and since it's a chariot, it can't be immobilised, so that gets downgraded to stunned, which is ignored on a 2+ because daemon.

It's fast enough to keep up with fast assault units and if you're taking a chariot, you've probably got cursed earth running, so a 4++ re-rolling 1's and virtually ignoring anything bar explodes on the damage table. It's not actually that terrible for 100 points and if heavy support slots are the big problem, well, it's not like deamons can't benefit from additional HQ slots and their troops are dirt cheap anyway, so it's not unreasonable to run a double CAD anyway.

Yes, the soul grinder with the torrent flamer is generally a better choice, but when you're attacking anything with a 3+, you'll be glad you've got it. Just don't ecpect it to live past the 2nd turn as they attract fire like nobodies business.

Cheesegear

2015-10-02, 05:20 AM

This is...Well, 'fun' isn't the right word...

Daemons, CAD
(W) Keeper of Secrets; ML3, x2 Greater - 260 Points
Be'lakor - 350 Points

Nurglings (x3) - 45 Points
Nurglings (x3) - 45 Points

Daemon Prince; Slaanesh, Wings, Armour, Greater, Exalted, ML3 - 340 Points
Daemon Prince; Slaanesh, Wings, Armour, Greater, Exalted, ML3 - 340 Points

Daemons, CAD
Keeper of Secrets; ML3, x2 Greater - 260 Points
Herald of Nurgle, ML2, Fecundity - 120 Points

Nurglings (x3) - 45 Points
Nurglings (x3) - 45 Points

Total: 1850.
Keepers try and get Invisibility and/or Shrouded. 'Princes spend two rolls on Biomancy for Iron Arm + Lash shenanigans, and then spend the third trying to get Incursion (or Summoning), because nothing beats Fliers that Summon. Herald tries to grab Cursed Earth or more Summoning.

Blackhawk748

2015-10-02, 07:50 AM

I guess Dirty Magic isnt what i think it is, i was talking about having like 8 Tzeentch Hearalds all join each other in a super unit and just blast everything to pieces. I know that was a thing for awhile in 6th.

Now i have no problem with my Daemon Prince having Mastery Levels, i have no problems with my Heralds having them either. I just hate that my Pink Horrors have been reduced to Psychic Batteries, i liked them as they were. :smallfrown: I have mixed feelings on the Flamers, on the one hand the wound on a 4+ Ignores Armor Flamers was amazing, but they were 35 points with one wound and a 4++, on the other hand they are cheaper and have two wounds now, but their flamers is just a normal flamer with AP 4 and Warpflame*. IIRC Screamers got buffed like crazy from the Old Dex to the current one, which is always good.

* I despise this rule. I do not need to give Space Marines FnP 2/3 of the time, just give it Soul Blaze if you want it to have a quirky rule and be done with it. I have never actually caused wounds with Warpflame and i usually run like 12 Flamers when i used to run Tzeentch Daemons.

Cheesegear

2015-10-02, 08:00 AM

I guess Dirty Magic isnt what i think it is, i was talking about having like 8 Tzeentch Hearalds all join each other in a super unit and just blast everything to pieces. I know that was a thing for awhile in 6th.

No. No it wasn't. In 6th Ed., there was no Summoning at all, and in 6th, Daemons didn't get free Flickering Fire like they do now. You're wrong. So, so wrong.
The Heralds could take Divination or Tzeentch. Tzeentch was (is) a trash Discipline, so Heralds spammed Divination for exactly one Power; 4+ Invulnerable Save for the unit. There was barely any 'blasting', if any, at all.

The current ScreamerStar is exactly the same, only Malefic is a thing in 7th, and you're trying to roll for Cursed Earth. The difference is, that with Malefic, if you don't roll CE, you get Summoning Powers instead, and all Tzeentch Heralds have Flickering Fire 'for free', which they never used to have. There is more 'blasting' in 7th than there ever was in 6th.

There were never 8 Heralds in a single army. Never. Ever. 3, tops. In 6th you got one Detachment, and you could have a maximum of 4 Heralds per Detachment (exactly the same as now, Daemons is not a new Codex), and that was it. Where the Hell did you get 8?

Like...Everything you think was in 6th Ed. Daemon armies is totally wrong. Where did you get your information from? Daemons is a 6th Ed. Codex. Nothing in the Daemons Codex has changed between 6th and 7th Ed. The only thing that has changed is the addition of Malefic, and now Chaos models automatically get the Primaris of their Gods' Discipline (and it doesn't count as 'Generating', which means Daemons essentially get a free Power).

I just hate that my Pink Horrors have been reduced to Psychic Batteries, i liked them as they were. :smallfrown:

Yes. Because their 'Shooting attack' has been relegated to a Psychic Power, and any dice that you spend on Flickering Fire is dice you aren't spending on trying to Manifest Cursed Earth or Summoning more Dice Horrors. If you do shoot Flickering Fire, it can always be Denied every so often, and that makes it kind of terrible.

Blackhawk748

2015-10-02, 08:08 AM

No. No it wasn't. In 6th Ed., there was no Summoning at all, and in 6th, Daemons didn't get free Flickering Fire like they do now. You're wrong. So, so wrong.
The Heralds could take Divination or Tzeentch. Tzeentch was (is) a trash Discipline, so Heralds spammed Divination for exactly one Power; 4+ Invulnerable Save for the unit. There was barely any 'blasting', if any, at all.

The current ScreamerStar is exactly the same, only Malefic is a thing in 7th, and you're trying to roll for Cursed Earth. The difference is, that with Malefic, if you don't roll CE, you get Summoning Powers instead, and all Tzeentch Heralds have Flickering Fire 'for free', which they never used to have. There is more 'blasting' in 7th than there ever was in 6th.

There were never 8 Heralds in a single army. Never. Ever. 3, tops. In 6th you got one Detachment, and you could have a maximum of 4 Heralds per Detachment (exactly the same as now, Daemons is not a new Codex), and that was it. Where the Hell did you get 8?

Like...Everything you think was in 6th Ed. Daemon armies is totally wrong. Where did you get your information from? Daemons is a 6th Ed. Codex. Nothing in the Daemons Codex has changed between 6th and 7th Ed. The only thing that has changed is the addition of Malefic, and now Chaos models automatically get the Primaris of their Gods' Discipline (and it doesn't count as 'Generating', which means Daemons essentially get a free Power).

Yes. Because their 'Shooting attack' has been relegated to a Psychic Power, and any dice that you spend on Flickering Fire is dice you aren't spending on trying to Manifest Cursed Earth or Summoning more Dice Horrors. If you do shoot Flickering Fire, it can always be Denied every so often, and that makes it kind of terrible.

Honestly i cant remember, i think the person i got the info from was still doing the "Double the Force Org chart at 2K points" thing so you could get a ton of Heralds if you tried, they were probably also overestimating the damage output of the Tzeentch Discipline (that Discipline is such a disappointment)

Yup, thats my problem, i have a Troops choice that is nothing more than more ML levels, when they used to actually be a decent shooty unit. Not great but 3 S4 AP 4 shots a model is nothing to scoff at.

http://media.giphy.com/media/PFwKHjOcIoVUc/giphy.gif

Cheesegear

2015-10-02, 08:14 AM

Honestly i cant remember, i think the person i got the info from was still doing the "Double the Force Org chart at 2K points" thing so you could get a ton of Heralds if you tried, they were probably also overestimating the damage output of the Tzeentch Discipline (that Discipline is such a disappointment)

This is what a 6th Ed. list looked like...

(W) Great Unclean One; ML3, x2 Greater - 280 Points
Herald of Tzeentch; Exalted, ML3, Disc - 150 Points
Herald of Tzeentch; Exalted, ML3, Disc - 150 Points
Herald of Tzeentch; ML3, Disc - 120 Points

Plaguebearers (x10); Instrument - 100 Points
Plaguebearers (x10) - 90 Points
Plaguebearers (x10) - 90 Points

Screamers (x8) - 200 Points

Daemon Prince; Nurgle, Flight, Armour, x2 Greater, ML3 - 335 Points
Daemon Prince; Nurgle, Flight, Armour, x2 Greater, ML3 - 335 Points

Total: 1850 Points
Pretty much all the Nurgle stuff was rolling on Biomancy for Iron Arm, and all the Heralds were trying to grab 4++. No 'Blasting' at all. Pretty much all Melee, all the time. Because FMCs worked differently and weren't terrible at Melee.

Blackhawk748

2015-10-02, 08:19 AM

Well then, i have now been informed. Misinformation Dispelled! Now i just need to figure out what im gonna do with my Tzeentch Daemons......

FYI i ran mono Tzeentch in 5th and 6th until the new codex showed up, then i just kinda stopped using them.

Janwin

2015-10-02, 08:21 AM

Thanks for the info, guys. Fortunately, I have a ton of flamers (10), but only one heavy flamer.

Are you leaving flamers on your immolators instead of giving them multi-meltas for anti vehicle/MC?

Blackhawk748

2015-10-02, 08:23 AM

Thanks for the info, guys. Fortunately, I have a ton of flamers (10), but only one heavy flamer.

Are you leaving flamers on your immolators instead of giving them multi-meltas for anti vehicle/MC?

You have enough Heavy Flamers elsewhere, you want that Multi Melta, trust me its amazing.

Janwin

2015-10-02, 08:25 AM

k I didn't see it called out on your Immos, so I wasn't sure. That's what I figured, though.

Blackhawk748

2015-10-02, 08:28 AM

k I didn't see it called out on your Immos, so I wasn't sure. That's what I figured, though.

You're right its not, i forget the Multa Melta isnt standard :smallredface:

Also, i recall you saying that you were gonna play Kill team with the Sisters. Seraphim are actually ok in Kill Team, mostly because you will only field two and both can have Hand Flamers. Im only saying this because if you have them you have a use for them, they really arent great enough to warrant going out and buying a few, unless you just like the model, and i really cant blame you for that.

Janwin

2015-10-02, 08:48 AM

Update to Sisters List taking in some of what was suggested. Still 1500 points.

HQ:

Uriah Jacobus - 100 pts (Warlord)
Canoness; Rosarius - 80 pts

No Force Org Slot:

Ministorum Priest; Shotgun, Book of St. Lucius - 31 pts
Ministorum Priest; Shotgun - 26 pts

Troops:

Battle Sister Squad; 9 Sisters, Sister Superior, Flamer, Heavy Flamer - 135 pts
Battle Sister Squad; 9 Sisters, Sister Superior, Flamer, Heavy Flamer - 135 pts
Battle Sister Squad; 9 Sisters, Sister Superior, Flamer, Heavy Flamer - 135 pts

Fast Attack:

Dominion Squad; 5 Dominions, Veteran Dominion Superior w/ Combi-Melta, Simulacrum Imperialis, 4x Meltagun, Immolator w/ Twin-Linked Multi-Melta, Laud Hailer and Storm Bolter - 223 pts
Dominion Squad; 5 Dominions, Veteran Dominion Superior w/ Combi-Melta, Simulacrum Imperialis, 4x Meltagun, Immolator w/ Twin-Linked Multi-Melta, Laud Hailer and Storm Bolter - 223 pts

Heavy Support:

Exorcist; Laud Hailer, Storm Bolter - 140 pts
Exorcist; Laud Hailer, Storm Bolter - 140 pts
Retributor Squad; 5 Retributor, Veteran Retributor Superior, Simulacrum Imperialis, 4x Heavy Bolter

Total: 1500 pts

Took the suggestions about the BSSs and made them 10 sisters with righteous promethium. Was able to get a 3rd squad in after removing the Seraphim squad.

Removed the storm bolters from various sisters and the one priest, and added in a Canoness with a Rosarius to tank some hits for her squad of sisters.

Each squad will get a priest. Canoness will go wherever she's needed, which is likely with Uriah to protect him.

I had 2 points left over, so I gave the priests shotguns because "lulz, they want to be Uriah". It's probably a stupid choice instead of getting an additional attack from pistol/melee weapon in assault, so I'll probably take them out once the lulz factor goes away.

Blackhawk748

2015-10-02, 08:58 AM

I was gonna ask "Why shotguns" but then you had 2 points left over, so meh. Honestly Priests will either be Smashing or letting the Sisters reroll their Saves in melee (which is amazing btw) so the extra attack isnt overly necessary.

Janwin

2015-10-02, 09:14 AM

You're right its not, i forget the Multa Melta isnt standard :smallredface:

Also, i recall you saying that you were gonna play Kill team with the Sisters. Seraphim are actually ok in Kill Team, mostly because you will only field two and both can have Hand Flamers. Im only saying this because if you have them you have a use for them, they really arent great enough to warrant going out and buying a few, unless you just like the model, and i really cant blame you for that.

Don't believe you can only field 2. Aren't Seraphim squads min 5?

Kill team doesn't let you take partial squads, so you can't just buy 2 of one squad and 3 of another.

Also, flamers are horrible in Kill Team. Since every individual model is treated as its own unit, you can spread out really far. A flamer will therefore likely only ever hit one person.

My kill team is special spam.

Battle Sister Squad; 4 Sisters, Veteran Sister Superior w/ Bolt Pistol and CCW (Specialist - Fleshbane), Storm Bolter, Heavy Bolter (Specialist - Split Fire) - 95 pts

Dominion Squad; 4 Dominions, Veteran Dominion Superior (Kill Team Leader), Meltagun (Specialist - Infiltrate), 3x Meltagun

I'm expecting a lot of Marine players and bikes, hence the meltagun spam. It also means anyone unlucky enough to bring a vehicle will lose it for sure. The Heavy Bolter being able to split fire should help me take down 2 horde-style models per turn, with the bolters giving supporting fire. The Vet Sister Superior is my melee backup, with 4 attacks on the charge wounding on 2s.

Blackhawk748

2015-10-02, 09:26 AM

Don't believe you can only field 2. Aren't Seraphim squads min 5?

Kill team doesn't let you take partial squads, so you can't just buy 2 of one squad and 3 of another.

Also, flamers are horrible in Kill Team. Since every individual model is treated as its own unit, you can spread out really far. A flamer will therefore likely only ever hit one person.

My kill team is special spam.

Battle Sister Squad; 4 Sisters, Veteran Sister Superior w/ Bolt Pistol and CCW (Specialist - Fleshbane), Storm Bolter, Heavy Bolter (Specialist - Split Fire) - 95 pts

Dominion Squad; 4 Dominions, Veteran Dominion Superior (Kill Team Leader), Meltagun (Specialist - Infiltrate), 3x Meltagun

I'm expecting a lot of Marine players and bikes, hence the meltagun spam. It also means anyone unlucky enough to bring a vehicle will lose it for sure. The Heavy Bolter being able to split fire should help me take down 2 horde-style models per turn, with the bolters giving supporting fire. The Vet Sister Superior is my melee backup, with 4 attacks on the charge wounding on 2s.

Ah your playing that Kill Team, sorry i immediately see kill team and think Heralds of Ruin kill team, which i personally think is better, but thats a moot point.

Requizen

2015-10-02, 10:55 AM

Alright, time to figure out my Necron army now I've bought the battleforce.

So for 850 pts for casual play.

CAD
Overlord w/ Warscythe, Resurrection Orb

5x Lychguard w/ Dispersion Shield
5x Deathmarks

10x Warriors
10x Warriors w/ Ghost Ark

3x Wraiths

Then my 1000 point army would be

Decurion Detachment

Reclamation Legion

Overlord w/ Warscythe, Resurrection Orb

5x Immortals w/ Gauss Blasters
10x Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
10x Warriors

3x Tomb Blades w/ TL Tesla Cannons, Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes

Deathmarks

5x Deathmarks

Canoptek Harvest

Spyder w/ TL Particle Beamer, Gloom Prism
3x Wraiths w/ Particle Caster
3x Scarabs

My issue with this army is it would require me to modify my Wraiths to give them the Casters.

Up to this point I'm pretty much rock-solid on what I'm getting. Once I get to 1500 and 2000, the choices begin. I could either add a minimal Destroyer Cult, but I wouldn't be able to rock a Heavy Destroyer unless I took some upgrades off the Harvest. If I give a single Whip Coil to a wraith, I could give my D-Lord a Phylactery, but I think it would be more worth it to give all my Wraiths whip-coils and keep either the Particle Beamer or the Gloom Prism on my Spyder, depending on what my foe is bringing.

My other option is to get some mobility to my base soldiers; get some Lychguard with shields to rock with my Overlord, buy 2 Night Scythes for them and the Immortals, a second Ghost Ark for my second Warriors, and I only need to downgrade one Wraith to a whip-coil and take off either the gloom prism or particle beamer from the Spyder again.

2000 points I can bring it all, throw in a Destroyer Cult with a heavy Destroyer, and take off all upgrades from the Harvest save a single Whip Coil.

Realistically I'm going to buy models as I like them and THEN build the armies, but still.

Sorry for the late response.

I wouldn't worry about giving Wraiths the Casters. They're not that great, you'd be better off just giving them Coils. The Cult is great, but you will probably want those Heavies considering you don't have any other way to deal with hard targets.

Do consider boosting the Wraith unit to max, though. A unit of 3 doesn't do much to anything that's not basic Troops in my experience.

If you want to go a non-Destroyer route, consider getting more Lychguard and some Scythes as you said. The Overlord with 10 Shieldguard (even without Orikan) can just march up the board more or less uncontested unless you're running against GCs or SHVs. Throw the Immortals in a Scythe, the other Warriors in either a Scythe or a Ark (I'd go Scythe, honestly, you want more high Strength shooting even if it's AP- ).

With Scythes and the Canoptek Harvest, you have lots of mobility and the Wraiths and Lychguard are hard to remove from the board in the meantime

Decurion
Reclamation Legion
Overlord - Warscythe, Res Orb
Lychguard x10 - Shields
Immortals x5 - Night Scythe
Warriors x10 - Night Scythe
Warriors x10 - Ghost Ark
Tomb Blades x3 - Nebuloscopes, Shield Vanes, Tesla

Deathmarks x5

Canoptek Harvest
Wraiths x6 - Whip Coils
Scarabs x3
Spyder - Particle Beamer

1669/????

Pretty fast list. Points free for more Scarabs, Tomb Blades, or Overlord upgrades.

Voidhawk

2015-10-02, 01:26 PM

Good necron recommendations there. The only thing I have to add (as always) is switching the tesla on the tomb blades for gauss. Ignores Cover isn't much use with AP-.

Drasius

2015-10-02, 06:04 PM

No. No it wasn't. In 6th Ed., there was no Summoning at all, and in 6th, Daemons didn't get free Flickering Fire like they do now. You're wrong. So, so wrong.
The Heralds could take Divination or Tzeentch. Tzeentch was (is) a trash Discipline, so Heralds spammed Divination for exactly one Power; 4+ Invulnerable Save for the unit. There was barely any 'blasting', if any, at all.

The current ScreamerStar is exactly the same, only Malefic is a thing in 7th, and you're trying to roll for Cursed Earth. The difference is, that with Malefic, if you don't roll CE, you get Summoning Powers instead, and all Tzeentch Heralds have Flickering Fire 'for free', which they never used to have. There is more 'blasting' in 7th than there ever was in 6th.

There were never 8 Heralds in a single army. Never. Ever. 3, tops. In 6th you got one Detachment, and you could have a maximum of 4 Heralds per Detachment (exactly the same as now, Daemons is not a new Codex), and that was it. Where the Hell did you get 8?

Like...Everything you think was in 6th Ed. Daemon armies is totally wrong. Where did you get your information from? Daemons is a 6th Ed. Codex. Nothing in the Daemons Codex has changed between 6th and 7th Ed. The only thing that has changed is the addition of Malefic, and now Chaos models automatically get the Primaris of their Gods' Discipline (and it doesn't count as 'Generating', which means Daemons essentially get a free Power).

Yes. Because their 'Shooting attack' has been relegated to a Psychic Power, and any dice that you spend on Flickering Fire is dice you aren't spending on trying to Manifest Cursed Earth or Summoning more Dice Horrors. If you do shoot Flickering Fire, it can always be Denied every so often, and that makes it kind of terrible.

2 things;

1) You could have 5 heralds in a single CAD, as you could take 4 as 1 HQ slot and then 1 more herald in the other HQ slot, but taking fateweaver and a stack of Tz heralds was still a thing back in 6th.

2) Taking 3-4 Tzeentch heralds on disks and giving one of them the Exalted Locus for masses of Str 6 AP4 flickering fire was definately a thing. Don't get me wrong, you still used to spend most of your rolls fishing for forewarning, but the capability of blasting out 12d6 shots with prescience was totally a thing. Used to do decent at being Daemon AA too since Str 6 was enough to glance any flier and that volume of shots with prescience meant not having skyfire didn't matter that much. Not to mention that you can't give vehicles FNP. The wording that disallows the same unit from manifesting the same power more than once is what killed that when 7th rocked around. Tzeentch actually does significantly less blasting now than they did before.

Cheesegear

2015-10-02, 06:54 PM

1) You could have 5 heralds in a single CAD, as you could take 4 as 1 HQ slot and then 1 more herald in the other HQ slot, but taking fateweaver and a stack of Tz heralds was still a thing back in 6th.

I remember Fatey taking multiple Grounding checks per phase and then getting rolled in the following Assault Phase. Like Pinning. 7th's change to making Grounding checks from 'multiple Pinning checks' to a 'Morale check' style is what ramped up the survivability of all FMCs. You only take one check at the end of the Phase, which Fatey can re-roll. Also, Grounding checks changed from being Hit, to an Unsaved Wound, and that's also huge - remember when a Tau Laser Pointer Markerlight could hit an MC in the retina and send it spiralling into the ground?

I don't remember Fatey in 6th at all.

Taking 3-4 Tzeentch heralds on disks and giving one of them the Exalted Locus for masses of Str 6 AP4 flickering fire was definately a thing. Don't get me wrong, you still used to spend most of your rolls fishing for forewarning, but the capability of blasting out 12d6 shots with prescience was totally a thing.

Not that I ever saw. But, you play Daemons, and Tzeentch at that. So, I believe you if you say so. I only remember playing against multiple Screamer units and/or Nurgle 'Princes packing Baleswords. Both of which have fallen out of favour for different reasons - although there are people who still swear by Nurgle 'Princes, but I'm not one of those people.

Tzeentch actually does significantly less blasting now than they did before.

Maybe less good blasting. But more of it? IMO, no. But I'll defer to you if you say so. All Tzeentch Heralds come with Flickering Fire now as standard, and you don't need to blow one of your valuable rolls for Forewarning (Cursed Earth) for it anymore. In addition, there are one or two Witchfires in Malefic that I can't remember (nobody ever remembers them), so while you're rolling Cursed Earth, you can pick up another Witchfire Power in addition to Flickering Fire that Tzeentch Daemons always get for no downside.

Armies I played against (in 6th), only ever had one Herald with Loci with a unit of Horrors to hold an Objective. The rest were Plaguebearers. I don't recall much blasting - if any - for any of 6th. But, that's my anecdotal evidence.

Blackhawk748

2015-10-02, 08:06 PM

2) Taking 3-4 Tzeentch heralds on disks and giving one of them the Exalted Locus for masses of Str 6 AP4 flickering fire was definately a thing. Don't get me wrong, you still used to spend most of your rolls fishing for forewarning, but the capability of blasting out 12d6 shots with prescience was totally a thing. Used to do decent at being Daemon AA too since Str 6 was enough to glance any flier and that volume of shots with prescience meant not having skyfire didn't matter that much. Not to mention that you can't give vehicles FNP. The wording that disallows the same unit from manifesting the same power more than once is what killed that when 7th rocked around. Tzeentch actually does significantly less blasting now than they did before.

This sounds familiar, so this is probably what i was thinking of.

DaedalusMkV

2015-10-02, 08:20 PM

Maybe less good blasting. But more of it? IMO, no. But I'll defer to you if you say so. All Tzeentch Heralds come with Flickering Fire now as standard, and you don't need to blow one of your valuable rolls for Forewarning (Cursed Earth) for it anymore. In addition, there are one or two Witchfires in Malefic that I can't remember (nobody ever remembers them), so while you're rolling Cursed Earth, you can pick up another Witchfire Power in addition to Flickering Fire that Tzeentch Daemons always get for no downside.

Armies I played against (in 6th), only ever had one Herald with Loci with a unit of Horrors to hold an Objective. The rest were Plaguebearers. I don't recall much blasting - if any - for any of 6th. But, that's my anecdotal evidence.

Dark Flame is a Torrent attack! Who could forget that? I mean, thanks to the way flame Witchfires work you don't even need to roll to hit.

...Admittedly, it's just a regular Flamer. But it has Torrent, and that makes it murder on squishy cover-based units like Tau Pathfinders, Eldar Rangers, Kroot (but who uses those any more) and Guardsmen of any shade. When I roll Malefic on my Daemon Prince, I'm never sad to see Dark Flame to go along with his Burning Brand. It's only ML1, so you can actually cast it on one or two dice, unlike the rest of Malefic Daemonology. Infernal Gaze is... Situationally useful. I've killed whole squads of Fire Warriors and Skitarii with it because they lined up at their maximum range and let me hit every single model with my 18" line. Unfortunately, that's the sort of mistake that most players don't make very often, and unlike Doombolt you can't just use it to snipe tanks while also benefitting from the occasional other model under the line. Because it really, really can't kill tanks. S3 Armourbane is not an anti-tank weapon, capable of penetrating AV14 or not.

Drasius

2015-10-03, 04:30 AM

So, we had a pre-tournament tournament so some of us could have a chance to run our new and improved hyper competative armies against each other before our upcoming yearly North Vs South tourny.

The plan was originally to take your beardiest 1850 points of cheese as it was going to be Cairns vs Gold Coast (Cheesegear will be about the only person in here who know where I'm talking about) to claim bragging rights over whose beard was cheesiest (or who cheese was beardiest, I'm not sure), but enough of the lads coming up from down south have pulled out that it's just a local thing with some ringers.

Anyway, as I've mentioned before, we're generally a fairly casual bunch, so hard lists are a new thrill and it was interesting to play.

Tau Firebase Cadre
190 - Riptide, IA, EWO, TL-FB
228 - 3x Broadsides, 2x HYMP, SMS, EWO, 1x Shas'vre, HRR, SMS, Seeker Missile, ATS [Warlord]
210 - 3x Broadsides, HYMP, SMS, EWO

Skyhammer - Ultramarine Chapter Tactics
235 - 10x ASM, Jump Packs, 2x Flamers, 2x Evicerators, Melta Bombs
210 - 10x ASM, Jump Packs, 2x Flamers, 1x Evicerators, Melta Bombs
315 - 10x Devs, 4x Grav Cannons w/ Grav Amp, Drop Pod
145 - 5x Devs, 4x Multi Meltas, Drop Pod

Space Marine CAD - Ultramarine Chapter Tactics
50 - Telion
60 - 5x Scouts, 5x Sniper Rifles
35 - Drop Pod

Officio Assassinorum Dataslate
140 - Culexus

Inquisitorial Detatchment
34 - Ordo Xeno Inquisitor, 3x Servo Skulls

1850

Extreme Alpha strike army, designed around killing psychic deathstars and dropping a couple of tough MC's or a single wraithknight. Capable of dropping 1-2 Imperial knights on the drop as well.

My first time playing any of these armies, let alone as a combination, so a good learning experience, but I think it's got most of the tools I need. Yes, the excess of ASM is probably a bad thing, but I love the models, so I'd like to make 'em useful, and they have a threat that needs to be answered by some armies, especially eldar.

vs

Space Marine CAD, Ravenguard Chapter Tactics
Chaplain, Terminator armour
10x Tacticals, Melta Gun, Dop Pod, Locator Beacon, Deathwind
5x Tacticals, Melta Gun, Dop Pod, Locator Beacon, Deathwind
10x Terminators, 2x Assault Cannons
Drop Pod
Stormtalon, Skyhammer
Stormtalon, Typhoon
Thunderfire Cannon

Bunker, Void Shield, Comms relay, Escape hatch

Librarius Conclave
Libby, Termie, Storm Shield, ML2 [warlord]
Libby, Termie, Storm Shield, ML2
Libby, ML2

Culexus

That's a roughish army, but it could be better, but this guy has a lot of luck with those termies despite conventional wisdom saying they're bad.

The culexus doesn't really worry me but I'm not in love with that thunderfire.

Dawn of War
Crusade

3 objectives for crusade, he places 1st and we end up spreading them out fairly well around the board.

My Warlord eventually rolls No LoS against shooting attacks, exactly what I was aiming for.
His is Night Attacker Night Attacker
He rolls Shrouded and Dominate for The termy libby
He rolls Shrouded and Dominate again for one of the other libbies
He rolls life leach and foreboding Prescience for the last libby

He win table sides, I deploy servo skulls to allow a reasonable coverage across the board, 12.5" back from his DZ.

I win the roll to deploy and choose to deploy 1st since I want to force him to go 1st. I nominate my skyhammer to come down 1st turn (I immediately realise this was a mistake since his list couldn't have reliably shot mine off the table in 1 turn and I would be better able to counter his beta strike). Oh well.

I pop the broadsides in cover and put the riptide over in the corner to both defend against a deepstrike threat and to try and draw away some deep strikers from my broadsides as well as give a better view of the midfield where I suspect he will pod in. Everything else starts in reserve, I declare infiltrate for the sniuper souts and Telion, but forget to deploy them and they are forced to walk on.

We find out that the objectives are 2x skyfire and 1x Nothing of note, but it never actually comes up.

Marines
He pods in the 2 tac squads, 1 with the life leech/Prescience librarian. I intercept with the riptide and kill 3 marines from the big squad and put a glance on the pod, the broadsides take out 2 marines in the small squad and they fail leadership and flee! His shooting bounces off 2+ armour.

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/DSC_0490_zpshypohatg.jpg~original

Tau/Imperium
Everything comes in roughly when I aim it, but I plan for the long game and try to put my guys in cover. Rolling all 1's for their mtc roll means they just sort of cluster around their drop pods like chumps though. I forget about the void shield on the bunker, and curse myself that despite bringing multi melta devs for precicely this reason, I deployed them too far away to do their job.

The culexus pops a couple of marines in the small squad, I declare devastator doctrine and still manage to fail to blow up a drop pod with the multi meltas, the grav squad opts to run so they can get into cover, wasting their relentless turn like chumps. The broadsides spew missiles at the marines, whittling the big marine squad down to a single man.

The ASM charge the bunker but only manage 2 pens and nothing really happens except -1 AV. The other ASM charge the pod, popping it for 1st blood and losing 2 guys in the 5" explosion.
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/DSC_0491_zpsjrrslw0k.jpg~original

Marines
All his reserves come in without even needing the coms relay.

The talons come on the minimum distance possible, the termies deep strike next to ruin the broadsides are hiding in via the beacon on the remaining pod, his non-warlord terminator DS's in on his own in the backfield and the assassin pods in near my assassin.

The small tac squad moves up to support the terminators after rallying and the thunderfire abandons the buncker via the escape hatch into the top of the fortress of redemption.

The broadsides destroy the typhoon on the stormtalon and force it to jink.

He fails prescience, gets shriek denied, fails life leach and fails shrouded.

His shooting kills a broadside and they fail morale and flee despite the shas'vre.

The lone tac marine tries for a valient charge on the non fleeing broadsides, but their overwatch shreds him to pieces.

Tau/Imperium
I rally the broadsides, Telion and friends walk on, the inquisitor shows up and the riptide moves back towards my DZ so he can draw LoS to the termies. The ASM the popped the pod move towards the other pod to clear it out while the culexus races forwards to get both his libbies within mindwipe range.

The culexus pops 3 terminators with his pewpew and the riptide blasts virtually all of the terminators away, leaving only the warlord termie and the 2 assault cannons. He also pops a pair of marines in the small tac squad by accident, leaving only 1 marine and the libby who promptly get shot to death by telion and his snipers who despite walking onto the board and snapfiring, manage a wound and 2 rends. The broadsides pour fire into the skyhammer talon but other than forcing it to jink, accomplish nothing. The melta gunners pop the assassins pod and the grav cannons eliminate the lone terminator psycher with extreme predjudice.

The bunker gets popped by the ASM and I declare a multi charge on the termies and the pod with the other ASM, popping the pod and losing 2 marines to the libby. Since I did 3 pens though, I win combat and the marines flee 'cause I don't roll high enough to keep them locked in combat.

Time gets called there unfortunately as we've only got 10 minutes left and there's no way we'll get though 2 more turns.

Ran out of time. GG.

Ran out of time. GG.

Ran out of time. GG.

Ran out of time. GG.

Ran out of time. GG.

I hold 2 objectives and have 1st blood for 7 points.
He has Linebreaker for 1 point.
Victory for the Tau/Imperium Alliance this day!
We started 3/4 of an hour late and I took ages to figure out how to play my army, so only getting through 2 turns kinda sucked. My opponent agreed that I probably would have had the game wrapped up in another 2 turns though.

LeSwordfish

2015-10-03, 05:16 AM

215 - 5x Devs, 4x Multi Meltas, Drop Pod

Really? Shouldn't that be 145? 70+40+35?

Drasius

2015-10-03, 05:19 AM

Tau Firebase Cadre
190 - Riptide, IA, EWO, TL-FB
228 - 3x Broadsides, 2x HYMP, SMS, EWO, 1x Shas'vre, HRR, SMS, Seeker Missile, ATS [Warlord]
210 - 3x Broadsides, HYMP, SMS, EWO

Skyhammer - Ultramarine Chapter Tactics
235 - 10x ASM, Jump Packs, 2x Flamers, 2x Evicerators, Melta Bombs
210 - 10x ASM, Jump Packs, 2x Flamers, 1x Evicerators, Melta Bombs
315 - 10x Devs, 4x Grav Cannons w/ Grav Amp, Drop Pod
145 - 5x Devs, 4x Multi Meltas, Drop Pod

Space Marine CAD - Ultramarine Chapter Tactics
50 - Telion
60 - 5x Scouts, 5x Sniper Rifles
35 - Drop Pod

Officio Assassinorum Dataslate
140 - Culexus

Inquisitorial Detatchment
34 - Ordo Xeno Inquisitor, 3x Servo Skulls

1850

Extreme Alpha strike army, designed around killing psychic deathstars and dropping a couple of tough MC's or a single wraithknight. Capable of dropping 1-2 Imperial knights on the drop as well.

My first time playing any of these armies, let alone as a combination, so a good learning experience, but I think it's got most of the tools I need. Yes, the excess of ASM is probably a bad thing, but I love the models, so I'd like to make 'em useful, and they have a threat that needs to be answered by some armies, especially eldar.

vs

Eldar CAD
Wraithknight, 2x Heavy Wraith cannons, 1x Scatterlaser
Farseer, Jetbike
Spirit Seer
3x Windriders, 3x Scatterlasers
3x Windriders, 3x Scatterlasers
5x Scytheguard, Wave Serpent
5x Scytheguard, Wave Serpent
Crimson Hunter

Seer Council
2x Farseers, Jetbikes
5x Warlocks, Jetbikes

Urgh, Eldar. Not as cheesy as it could be, but still not something I'd like to face with one of my normal lists. Still, the guy who runs this is a cool dude, just a shame he plays Eldar. The scatbikes are new and I didn't know he had 2 lots of scytheguard.

Hammer and Anvil
Emperors Will

We both place our objectives in ruins in our DZ

My Warlord rolls No LoS against shooting attacks 1st try, exactly what I was aiming for.
His is +1 to reserves, +1 sieze.
He rolls fearless Shriek and Fearless off telepathy, then Fearless & Adamantium will Guide off Fate for CAD Seer
He rolls invis, shrouded and dominate on the 1st farseer
I can't remember what else he rolled on the other seer or the warlocks

He win table sides and chooses (IMHO) poorly giving me the half with 2 spots for 4+ cover for my broadsides and riptide and better cover on approach.
I pop 2 of my servo skulls 18.5" from his DZ since I know thos jetbikes will want to get into range early with another almost in my DZ as backup if he gets too close for later.

He wins the roll to deploy and chooses to deploy 1st. He plays conservatively, holding most of his forces back in a castle in the top right. I nominate my skyhammer to come down 1st turn (since his council started on the board) and put the Tau into ruins and rubble while Telion and friends infiltrate into the mid board ruin.

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/DSC_0492_zpswbprx2lf.jpg~original

He opts to give me 1st turn, and while I would have liked for him to go 1st, I'm happy enough with how it has turned out.

Tau/Imperium

ASM come down with 1 squad on the top/mid right to charge his jetbikes to slingshot up and the other to take out the wraithknight in the top left if the grav fails. Both land on target (critical for the top left since they didn't have a skull to reduce scatter and could have easily gone off the board). The culexus pod threads the needle right between the council, jetbikes and serpent and thanks to inertial guidance, a 7" scatter turns into a direct hit.

The grav pod comes down on target right near the ASM squad to blam the wraithknight while the melta pod scatter 6 toward his toys, but the squad can just manage a conga line of melta death to get LoS to both his other Serpent and the wraithknight.

The Culexus annihilates the entire council in 1 round for 1st blood and warlord in a devastating blow. I declare Devastator doctrine and the grav squad implodes the wraithknight with an unsaved wound to spare and the melta men slag a serpent to boot, disembarking one squad of scythe guard deep in their own DZ. The riptide decides the scatter risk is too high for the large blast and pewpews 2 scytheguard away with the std 3 shot IA mode. The snipers and telion pop 2 of the jetbikes the mid right ASM were going to assault and the drop pods combine fire to drop 2 more from the other squad and both squads fail morale, with 1 running off the board and 1 stopping 3mm short of the board edge. The warlord is the only broadside who can get range and he can't manage a hit despite being twin linked.

The assault marines no longer have any targets to charge, so they stand around like chumps.

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/DSC_0493_zpsvozipldt.jpg~original
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/DSC_0494_zpshsuj9sbh.jpg~original

Eldar
The game is all but lost, but he plays it out.

The disembarked scytheguard obliterate the melta devs, the remaining jetbike rallies, but 1 snap shooting scatter laser doesn't achieve anything. The remaining serpent kills an assault marine while disgorging the scytheguard to avenge themselves on the culexus and the pos he came in on.

Tau/Imperium

The Inquisitor comes in and hangs around near the ruin.

The ASM in the top left prep for a charge on the remaining Serpent while the other ASM move up to be 14.1" away from the 5 man scytheguard to get their charge on next turn.

The Grav squad brutalises the remaining 3 man scytheguard, the HRR forces the remaining jetbike to jink again, the riptide tries to hit the serpent but cover means nothing sticks. Telion and friends rend 2 of the 5 man scytheguard to death.

The ASM charge the remaining Serpent, popping it

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/DSC_0495_zpsevqrwfzd.jpg~original
Eldar
The Crimson hunter has seen what's going on and wants nothing to do with this, declining to enter from reserves.

The remaining scytheguard move up to eliminate the ASM's that dropped the serpent and the jetbike turbos up to his objective.

The laws of probability don't fail and the 10 ASm are removed with exactly 10 wounds from 15 hits.

The Grav squad pulverise the remaining scytheguard and telion and freinds rend the last jetbike to death. That's all she wrote.

Technically he could have brought his crimson hunter on, but interceptor from the broadsides would have made that a quick trip.

Tabled Him. GG.

Tabled Him. GG.

Tabled Him. GG.

Tabled Him. GG.

Tabled him for full points.
Crushing Victory for the Tau/Imperium Alliance this day!
This army was designed to specifically be good against almost exactly this army. Big psychic deathstar? Check. Big scary thing for grav to brutalise? Check. Vehicles transporting slow short range infantry for the meltas to pop? Check. The broadsides only shot twice then entire game, and that was only because I took that single HRR, and it didn't even wound anything.

The Culexus in a pod was clearly man of the match, but the grav devs came a very close second.

I almost felt bad about this as it was pretty much over at the top of turn 1, but then I remembered it was Eldar, and I didn't feel so bad anymore.

Drasius

2015-10-03, 06:16 AM

Tau Firebase Cadre
190 - Riptide, IA, EWO, TL-FB
228 - 3x Broadsides, 2x HYMP, SMS, EWO, 1x Shas'vre, HRR, SMS, Seeker Missile, ATS [Warlord]
210 - 3x Broadsides, HYMP, SMS, EWO

Skyhammer - Ultramarine Chapter Tactics
235 - 10x ASM, Jump Packs, 2x Flamers, 2x Evicerators, Melta Bombs
210 - 10x ASM, Jump Packs, 2x Flamers, 1x Evicerators, Melta Bombs
315 - 10x Devs, 4x Grav Cannons w/ Grav Amp, Drop Pod
145 - 5x Devs, 4x Multi Meltas, Drop Pod

Space Marine CAD - Ultramarine Chapter Tactics
50 - Telion
60 - 5x Scouts, 5x Sniper Rifles
35 - Drop Pod

Officio Assassinorum Dataslate
140 - Culexus

Inquisitorial Detatchment
34 - Ordo Xeno Inquisitor, 3x Servo Skulls

1850

Extreme Alpha strike army, designed around killing psychic deathstars and dropping a couple of tough MC's or a single wraithknight. Capable of dropping 1-2 Imperial knights on the drop as well.

My first time playing any of these armies, let alone as a combination, so a good learning experience, but I think it's got most of the tools I need. Yes, the excess of ASM is probably a bad thing, but I love the models, so I'd like to make 'em useful, and they have a threat that needs to be answered by some armies, especially eldar.

vs

Baronial Court
Knight Lancer, Sanctuary, IWND relic - Warlord
Knight Acheron
Knight Paladin
Knight Errant

Officio Assassinorum
Vindicare Assassin

4 knights? Rough. And my marines aren't going to like that Acheron at all. Str 7 AP3 hellstorm template? Yuck. This army is gorgeously painted, and I can't complain since I have 5 knights of my own and could've run them if I so chose.

Vanguard Strike
Relic

Relic goes in the middle as usual.

My Warlord rolls Infiltrate -1 enemy reserves. Damn, should have kept infiltrate, but the chance of stealth ruins was just too tempting
His is something +1 run and charge for warlord.

He win table sides
I pop my servo skulls near all the buildings to prevent his vindicare from infiltrating anywhere good but also spreading them out to allow me optiosn on where to DS.

He wins the roll to deploy and chooses for me to deploy 1st. Same old story, tau into cover, everything else in reserve, souts infiltrating, skyhammer coming down turn 1.

He lines up his knights pretty much on the line.

Telion and friends win the roll to infiltrate and set up shop on the top floor of the right ruin. The Vindicare is left with nowhere to go, so camps out in one of the forrests.

He tries to sieze but fails.

Tau/Imperium
I need to make this count. Time to be more aggressive with me ASM's.

Double evicerator squad goes on the far right to tie up the acheron and lands on target 4" away. Other squad goes after the Lancer and lands on target ~5" away. Grav goes on left flank of Lancer, melta squad threads the needle and lands between the Paladin and Lancer. The Assassin comes down on the objective nd gets into base contact with the relic.

I call Devastator Doctrine and I manage 4 hull points on the lancer with grav, then 1 more with 1 broadside squad who manage 3 hits out of 12 twin linked BS3 shots. I figure the ASM have got this and pump the melta into the Paladin and do 3 hull points from an explode result, then the HYMP take another and the warlord pens and explodes the Paladin with his HRR for 1st blood!

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/DSC_0498_zps34par8kd.jpg~original

The riptide can't see anything else so decides to pot shot the Lancer, 2 hits and boxcars for pen sees the Lancer go down for warlord as well! Unfortunately, he falls over almost directly onto my Grav Devs, crushing 7 of them (including 2x Grav Cannons).

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/DSC_0499_zpso5cvg5l5.jpg~original
*the knights in the foreground are dead.

The left ASM decide to run now they've got nothing to assault and the Grav Devs pass their morale check.

The riptide decides to try and get the relic away from the centre of the board to get the knights to chase him between my broadside units and assault moves into B2B with the relic as well.

The right ASM charge the Acheron and whiff all 5 attacks (2x Evicerators on the charge and a melta bomb), losing 5 men to a combination of chainblade and stomps, fail morale and flee like idiots. So much for that plan.

Knights
The remaining knights move up. The Vindicare tries to turbo penetrator my warlord, but rolls a 1 to wound., the melta from the Errant takes a wound off the riptide, as does the flamerstorm cannon from the acheron who also takes a wound off the Culexus.

The Acheron makes an 8" charge through cover into the riptide but the Errant can't manage the same.

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/DSC_0500_zpszqb0v3bv.jpg~original

The riptide loses another wound to hammer of wrath but survives with 2 wounds, but then gets stomped out along with the Culexus because Superheavy.

Tau/Imperium

The Inquisitor comes in and heads up the right side of the board to provide anouther source of line breaker.

I declare Assault Doctrine and both ASM squads move 12" towards the errant to try and bring it down.

The remaining Grav Devs and melta boys power 3 hull points off the Errant and Telion and friends manage to rend a hull point off the rear of the Acheron! The broadsides continue their abysmal run of shooting, generating 4 hits from 12 twin linked BS3 shots and can only sneak a single wound through on the Acheron while the warlords squad has even less success, not managing a single glance despite hitting with everything and tank hunters.

The ASM both make the charge and manage to land 5 evicerator hits and a melta bomb onto the Errant, losing 5 to stomps and 2 more to the D-splosion.

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/DSC_0501_zpsygjihcuv.jpg~original

They consolidate towards the assassin.

Knights
The Acheron turns around and eliminates the 2 ASM squads bar a single flamer guy who fails morale and legs it 10" (directly towards the acheron mind you!).

The Vindicare lands the turbo penetrator on my warlord Shas'Vre and does 2 wounds, popping him and the squad fails morale with a 9 (if only the Shas'vre was alive the would've passed! Oh the Irony) and flee 10 inches.

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/DSC_0501_zpsygjihcuv.jpg~original

Tau/Imperium
The Broadsides rally, as does the lone ASM and jumps 12" out of LoS behind a ruin. The Melta boys opt to stay put as only a single multi melta could see the knight, but they could all see the assassin. The grav lads move to secure linebreaker.

The meltas all go into the assassin, but he saves all 3 wounds. I then remember the storm bolters on the drop pods and he fails 3/4 invos! Everyone else combines fire on the Acheron but can only take it down to 1 HP. Final 10 Minutes gets called.

Knights
The Acheron charges the Drop pod and destroys it, claiming the Relic.

Game ends due to time.

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/DSC_0502_zpsvh4c9we3.jpg~original

Time. GG.

Time. GG.

Time. GG.

Time. GG.

I have 1st Blood, Line breaker and Warlord for 3 points
He has Relic and Warlord for 4 points.
Victory for the Knight/Assassin Alliance this day!

More than a little dirty I didn't get another turn since 1 round of broadside fire should have dropped him which would've been a tabling. Even if time could have been announced a minute earlier, I would've jumped that lone ASM into the relic and force him to split fire and maybe not get a chance to charge the drop pod. Still, we started late after lunch and I'm a slow player, so It's largely my fault. A bunch of stuff I could have done better in this game, but it was a fun game, so all is well.

I ended up winning the tourny (just) and split my winnings with the player from Game #1 as I felt I had cheated him out of a competative game due to how slow I played. I think I still would have won, but it was the right thing to do I feel, so I'm happy.

I learnt a lot about running the army, and what worked and what didn't, where I needed to be more agressive and how I need to position my ASM to achieve a better effect. I never ran into something where the supressing fire of the skyhammer would kick in, so that was a bit dissapointing, but often that was only because everything was dead.

I still need to work on target priority and remembering stuff, but for the 1st outing of an army, I'm pretty happy about how it went. It still needs a lot more playtime, but I think I'm pretty happy with the list. Apparently the Eldar player is going to chage his list to something really dirty after the shellacking he got (the marine player ruined him too). Culexus in a pod is brutal against the council, enought that it was totally worth nothing having anything for him to do against the knights and not much to do against the marine list.

Ricky S

2015-10-03, 07:12 AM

Nice battle reports. I also know what you are talking about. I was living in Brisbane until recently. Qld is definitely a competitive state when it comes to 40k.

Col.Straken

2015-10-03, 07:59 AM

Pretty sure you won Game 3 as off the top of my head you can only claim the relic at the end of your movement phase.

Cheesegear

2015-10-03, 07:16 PM

The plan was originally to take your beardiest 1850 points of cheese as it was going to be Cairns vs Gold Coast

...And here I am in the middle of both of those places, rarely getting to major tournaments (because of said living in between of said major tournament hubs), and with no painted armies and therefore a very weak tournament score.
#noinvites.

Space Marine CAD, Ravenguard Chapter Tactics

"Let's bring our cheesiest cheese. I know! I'll bring Raven Guard!" :smallsigh:

Urgh, Eldar. Not as cheesy as it could be

So, when your opponents hear 'Bring your cheesiest cheese', they...Don't?

Blackhawk748

2015-10-03, 08:59 PM

So, when your opponents hear 'Bring your cheesiest cheese', they...Don't?

Some people just cant handle that much Limburger :smalltongue:

Drasius

2015-10-04, 03:31 AM

...And here I am in the middle of both of those places, rarely getting to major tournaments (because of said living in between of said major tournament hubs), and with no painted armies and therefore a very weak tournament score.
#noinvites.

You're more than welcome to fly up to Cairns for our Tourney on the 17th man. You can even crash at my place if you like.

"Let's bring our cheesiest cheese. I know! I'll bring Raven Guard!" :smallsigh:

This guy plays Raven guard normally, so he's going with what he knows. I had to inform him that his drop pod dudes didn't get shrouded 1st turn too, so that might change, but since virtually no-one up here has any ignores cover, his void shielded thinderfire cannon on bunker very rarely dies, allowing him to set up a heavy beta strike with minimal risk of tabling. If I had've been smarter about how I played against him, I could possibly have managed to table him turn one, but probably not without getting very lucky.

So, when your opponents hear 'Bring your cheesiest cheese', they...Don't?

Hey, bar 1 person, we're casual in the extreme, so for us, those sort of lists are on the extreme end of cheese. I'm 1 of maybe 2 or 3 people who follow the tourney meta and watch/read bat-reps against strong list to figure out counters. We could all go down the path of the arms race into the tournament lists, but then none of us could run what we like, so generally that doesn't happen. The one major cheesebeard up here basically doesn't get any games and has alienated most of the regular players.

After the Eldar player got a bit of a thrashing (he came last in our little face off, only beating the knight player in a close game), he has presented a new list.

Windrider host
115 - Farseer, Skyrunner
50 - Warlock, Skyrunner
40 - Viper
51 - 3x Windriders
51 - 3x Windriders
51 - 3x Windriders

Wraith Construct
295 - Wraithknight, 2x Heavy Wraith Cannons

Wraith Construct
295 - Wraithknight, Ghost Glaive and Scatter shield

Wraith Construct
295 - Wraithknight, Ghost Glaive and Scatter shield

Eldar CAD
115 - Farseer, Skyrunner

81 - 3x Windriders, 3x Scatterlasers
81 - 3x Windriders, 3x Scatterlasers

320 - 5x Wraithguard, D-Scythes, Wave Serpent

1840

He's undoubtedly got 10 points of upgrades in there somewhere, but I don't remember what.

Not sure how I'd deal with that. I'd pop 1 WK on the drop, maybe another with 3 turns of shooting from the broadsides and riptide and use the ASM to try and take out the serpent and one squad of bikes while the culexus pops his warlord where possible. Can't imagine the grav devs will be alive to eat another wraithknight turn 2 though. If he holds all the bikes in reserve, I might just have to charge the ASM at the WK's and hope he doesn't stomp out the melta bombs and evicerators too quickly and try and let the broadsides deal with the bikes?

Also, played a game against a returning 'Nid player (after almost 10 years away from 40k) today with my Iron Warriors. Close game, with some silly things going on. 3/9 armour saves passed on obliterators, Land raider immobilising itself on turn 2 despite having a dozer blade, not failing a single invulnerable save all game, only wounding once with melta guns from 8 shots, denying 3 times with 2 dice, bolter wounds on a swooping flyrant, My Warpsmith defeated a broodlord in a challenge (and rolled witch-eater) and survived the entire game. Vindicators did serious work all game as well, popping a broodlord who was the lone guy on an objective on turn 5, a neurothrope, a handful of genestealers and putting wounds on some carnifeii (including one with a snap firing combi-bolter!). Termies multi charged a Carnifex and Genestealers with broodlord and killed them all in 2 rounds without losing anyone. Fun was had by all as it came down to one demolisher shot on the last turn for the win.

LeSwordfish

2015-10-04, 08:51 AM

Since people were posting pictures, I took a shot of my completed Tenth Company (warning: large image): Here. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/challenge/20151003_183350.jpg) The heroic squad Paris is the frontmost of the two five-man squads. The old "never completely finished" adage is getting to me though... one more squad of scouts and speeder couldn't hurt, right?

Grim Portent

2015-10-05, 05:45 AM

So with Skarbrand having a shiny new model I've been thinking about how he fits into armies and I have a few thoughts on the matter.

Firstly he doesn't fit into Chaos Daemons armies well. He's slow, so he has to deepstrike, but the best units that benefit from his buffs don't have Banners of Blood, they either have icons of a different god or no icon at all. CD Bloodletters and Bloodcushers are a joke, so there's not going to be much help from them.

Allied in to Chaos Space Marines or Renegades & Heretics he doesn't have a lot to offer, full scatter Deepstrike on a large model is painful, and neither of these armies should be investing in assault primarily anyway.

Allied in to Khorne Daemonkin on the other hand Skarbrand benefits from the changes to available units. Skarbrand can no scatter Deepstrike immediately next to a unit of Bloodletters with a Banner on the same turn they arrived, and Bloodletters are a great unit in KDK, despite being a bad unit in CD. If your Bloodletters have instruments they can even auto-pass Skar's reserve roll for him. Sadly Skarbrand doesn't benefit from the Blood Tithe, nor will the minimum allied troops (I advise Nurglings for cheapness), but his buff aura stacks with several of the benefits of the Blood Tithe, and can make for some very strong buffed blocks of Khorne units.

FNP or +1 Attack from the Tithe + Furious Charge from Icons/Daemon of Khorne + Rage and Hatred bubble from Skarbrand = lots of high strength attacks re-rolling failed hits. DS Skar and some Bloodletters with Banners behind a houndstar or unit of Chaos Spawn and revel in the bloodshed.

Drasius

2015-10-05, 06:38 AM

Depends on the meta to an extent. 'Crushers are't quite so terrible if your meta is full of str 6/7 spam, because now they actually get to use all 3 wounds per model instead of copping a couple of str 8 hits and dieing. Since they are fast and can get a banner and aren't in a competative slot for deamons, they can actually do some work. On top of that, AP3 and being fast means they can apply pressure to certain lists, not to mention sucking up shooting that would normally be directed at your FMC's who've started on the board. If required, you can spend 15 points to get AP2 on the sarge bloodhunter if you think you'll really need it, though I feel it's probably not worth it

They're certainly not better than flesh hounds, but I think they can have a place in very specialised lists, sort of a distraction Carnifex if you will (them being the distraction, Skarbrand being the Carnifex). 45 ppm is still a lot for T4 and a 5++ though, but a a wise man once said, "If they do the job you need them to, then they're worth the points".

Unfortunately, now you're investing a large amount of points into making a bad model get where he needs to go, but said model will simply get wrecked as he can't jink so he needs support. Think about the amount of points you need to invest over and above what you would normal spend to have a D-Thirster do the exact same job. Is it more than 50 - 90 points? If yes, then you could've just brought a D-Thirster (+- 2 greater gifts) and been done with it. He will still need some combination of Grimoure/invis/shroudedI honestly don't think Skarbrand brings anything to the armies that they need. At least the D-Thirster can start on the board and not have to worry about sitting in reserves until T4 if something goes wrong, nor that whatever he wants to assault will simply move away from him at a brisk walk.

Grim Portent

2015-10-05, 09:20 AM

He acts as an extra force multiplier to KDK, which as an army loves force multipliers, but doesn't cost more than the cost of himself + nurglings, since KDK should be using Bloodletters with banners and instruments as troops/part of a Slaughtercult anyway, while CD pays an opportunity cost by taking either Bloodletters or Bloodcrushers in a book with much better options for those slots.

For KDK it's essentially a choice between him and his nurgling minimum troops, or a D-Thirster, since they cost about the same, which is kind of a hard choice imo. Both face a minimum of one turn being shot at before they can assault, both can wreck a lot of stuff if they reach it, both can quickly reach the enemy with the right support and both can fit neatly into an army with minimal fuss. The issue is more of how much D you've already got, and if you need more mundane boosts or more big destructive models.

Requizen

2015-10-05, 11:12 AM

Had our 1500 "sorta-friendly" tourney this weekend. Brought the following:

Necron CAD
Lord

Warriors x10
Tesla Immortals x5
Gauss Immortals x5 w/ Night Scythe

Wraiths x6 (no upgrades)
Wraiths x6 (no upgrades)
Wraiths x6 (no upgrades)

Heavy Destroyers x2
Heavy Destroyers x2
Heavy Destroyers x2

Pretty straight forward. Wraiths with some big guns behind them, and ObSec troops to do nothing but be ObSec. Lord is completely stock and just hides in the Night Scythe all game long.

Was quite fun! Two close losses (one because Eldar though I kept in it til the end, one because my dice were extremely cold all game), two crushing wins, and one close victory.

To keep it "friendly", I didn't bring the Harvest. It worked ok, the extra Troops were nice for squatting things and Wraiths are pretty tough as it is, but there is a marked difference between having RP and not. Especially when your dice decide that they love 1s and 2s. Even one squad with it would have been good.

First game was against Eldar with a Wraithknight. I know the guy, he's really cool, but man, I always always feel disadvantaged in a game against WK Eldar, no matter what I bring. At least he didn't have the D Barrage this time, which is absolutely terrifying.

Second game was against another Necron. Cold dice. And by cold, I mean "I charged a unit of Wraiths into his Warriors and he won combat" cold. I mean "His unit of Wraiths killed two entire units of mine only losing one" cold. But it was alright, I tied up on one of the missions and had Linebreaker so it wasn't an entire loss (since we were going off of Battle Points instead of W/L)

Played against a guy going CSM. He brought a full fluffy list, whereas mine was not powergamey but still really strong. He had an Oblit left at the end of the game. They really just needed a "competitive tourney" and a "friendly", this inbetween thing didn't really cut it, and I felt a bit bad for the guy. But we had fun.

Next against Necrons again. Dice went a bit better, and even though his Decurion Harvest Whip Coil Wraiths were a bit stronger than mine, I was able to tie them up, get to the Spyder with another unit, and then take control of the game after that. Cards also went my way quite well, which was nice.

Final game against Skitarii. Not AdMech, not War Convocation, just Skitarii. Two units of each Troop type, two units of Dunestriders with different weapons, and two units of Dragoons with the Lances. This was a fun game. I let him charge my Wraiths with the Dragoons thinking "oh, they're just Skitarii, what's the worst that could happen?". Well, 20 hits off of 15 attacks at S7 is what could happen. That was pretty dang scary. Ended up pulling ahead with cards but losing Kill Points.

Overall, good times. I do like mass Wraiths, it's fast and ties up half the board before they can do anything about it, leading to games that are more fun than scoot and shoot. I missed the resiliency of Decurion, but having so many Wraiths and ObSec felt really strong occasionally, even if they died a bit quicker. An 1850 version of this list would be quite fun.

Cheesegear

2015-10-07, 08:47 AM

The one major cheesebeard up here basically doesn't get any games and has alienated most of the regular players.

That's exactly what I've found. Outside of tournaments, Cheesebeard Beardcheese doesn't actually show up, and when he does, he gets ostracised. As 'broken' as the Eldar Codex is, we've got a bunch of reasonably competitive players that have never even touched the book.

The War Convocation, and Daemons, on the other hand...

Here. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/challenge/20151003_183350.jpg) The heroic squad Paris is the frontmost of the two five-man squads.

What colour are the bases' rims, and what colours did you use for the Camo Cloaks?

So with Skarbrand having a shiny new model I've been thinking about how he fits into armies and I have a few thoughts on the matter.

Khorne Daemonkin is a fairly strong Codex right now, GW critically missed an opportunity to insert Skarbrand into the Daemonkin Codex (They could have sold double the amount of models! ...Double zero is still zero). Which is unfortunate, because they managed to put the new-Thirsters into the Chaos Daemons Codex. But, they completely failed to do the inverse for Skarbrand, basically reformatting the Daemons' Codex, which nobody who plays Daemons needs.

Depends on the meta to an extent. 'Crushers are't quite so terrible if your meta is full of str 6/7 spam, because now they actually get to use all 3 wounds per model instead of copping a couple of str 8 hits and dieing.

Welcome to 7th Ed., Tyranid Warriors are actually good now. 'Crushers are in the same boat, even if they do cost a boatload of points - that's why you should Summon Bloodcrushers for free! Bloodcrushers are amazing when they cost 0 Points.

while CD pays an opportunity cost by taking either Bloodletters or Bloodcrushers in a book with much better options for those slots.

Daemons use their Elite slots? When did that start happening?

For KDK it's essentially a choice between him and his nurgling minimum troops, or a D-Thirster...

One of the main benefits of the D-Thirster is that it can 'compete' with Super-Heavies, without being a Super-Heavy itself, since most tournaments have decided that doing Wounds/HPs to a SH/G awards VPs. While a D-Thirster can net you some VPs, it doesn't give any on the return - aside from the likely Warlord Point.

Lord is completely stock and just hides in the Night Scythe all game long.

You've seen the light, and brought a ton of Wraiths.
Ironically, you haven't invested in the amazingness of The Solar Staff.

Second game was against another Necron. Cold dice. And by cold, I mean "I charged a unit of Wraiths into his Warriors and he won combat" cold.

Oh dear. :smalleek:

They really just needed a "competitive tourney" and a "friendly", this inbetween thing didn't really cut it,

But there is such a thing as Competitive-Casual. Basically, you look at major tournament-winning lists, and make a promise to just not make those lists.
Then, find what Theme/models you like (Sternguard Deathwatch), and then ask around and theoryhammer the best way to make that happen. Bring in Allies if you have to. I know that you can make a decent Chaos Marine list with Ahriman-as-Warlord. I've seen it. I know that there's an effective use of Warp Talons (Tzeentch). I've seen it. Don't strive to have the best army. But strive to have the best army that you want.

The trouble is that some fluffy lists Just Suck, and there's really no way that you can make it work. My SoT/White Scars/Dark Angels list wont win any tournaments any time soon. But it does what I want it to and has better than a 50% win rate in PUGs and casual games. 30K is built around fluffy lists, and my 30K Imperial Fists army is basically terrible, the only way to fix it is by redoing the entire list and picking a new Theme and getting new models, because it doesn't work, and doesn't do what I want it to do. Because The Stone Gauntlet isn't actually that good, even if it is fluffy - it's just too slow!

But, sometimes in those Competitive-Casual environments, when people strive to make What You Like = What Is Good; Sometimes, you get those people whose Theme is legitimately "But I like Riptides and Broadsides." Or Eldar players who have been playing since 3.5/4th, who just happen to have a ton of red-painted Jetbikes, just waiting for the day for Saim-Hann to be good again. Kind of like when 6th Ed. rolled around and I already had ~30 Space Marine Bikers ready to go, or when 7th Ed. happened and I already had ~50 Scouts. Sometimes, what people like, is already good (like in 30K when people just already like Alpha Legion - or Lorgar - to begin with).

Sometimes - most of the time, actually - people actually DO know fluff.

Requizen

2015-10-07, 10:57 AM

I didn't really see room or the need for a Solar Staff, at least not in this list. The Warriors/Immortals were chumps and expected to die, and the Lord isn't fast enough to give it to a Wraith unit. The only feasible way to give it to Wraiths is to put it on a DLord, but then you miss out on giving him a Warscythe or the Voidreaper (which is pretty amazing at times).

The Solar Staff actually just feels awkward to use in general. Put it on a unit that you want to throw forward and survive. Troops don't really fit that since they're not particularly important and they basically just want to camp objectives anyway. Shield Lychguard are pretty darn durable even without adding the minimum 65 points to add it to them. It works pretty well on Scythe Lychguard since they're less durable, but that's already pretty expensive once you put in the Characters and stuff in there. It works ok with the Conclave of the Burning One to let the C'Tan survive until he can get into Assault or clear out enough enemies with shooting/Gaze of Death.

Basically, though, I've given up on Deathstars since losing them to LoWs a dozen times (or at least what feels like it). Necron Deathstars are just too slow or too unreliable. If you DS them, there's no scatter reduction and they still only move 6" after, so it's easy to get away for many things unless your DS goes perfectly. You can throw them in a Night Scythe, but that's another 100+ point investment that can't score and might not come in until turn 4 if you're unlucky.

Wraiths just kinda work. Fast, durable, decent in assault and good tarpits even if they don't kill anything. But the only IC that's feasible to put with them is the DLord unless you want to stick an anchor on their mobility. And even he can be problematic if your Thrust Moves aren't good.

6" Deathstars just don't really work when everyone else is moving 12" per turn away from you and/or towards your backline. Doubly so when LoWs get to move 12" baseline and are going to chase you down and Stomp you to death. Unless you can take it out in a single Assault, which a full unit of Warscythe Lychguard (with Zahndrekh and a DLord, no less) has an outside chance to do, but not anything special in that regard.

In fact, the Conclave of the Burning One might just be the best formation for killing Wraithknights, as Gaze of Death + a chance for D on the Powers table + Blind from Solar Staff seems to be more effective than any of our Assault Deathstars, especially when you pair it with Destroyer Cult shooting.

/rant

About the tourney, yeah, I think the issue was in how they marketed it. Tying prizes to performance and making it for ITC points gave off the appearance of a more "serious" tourney, while they wanted something more friendly. It's hard to encourage people to bring less beardy lists when some people take ITC rankings so seriously. They already said that they would make the prizes not for top placers (or at least not just for them) next year, which is a step in the right direction.

Narrative events seem to be the best way to encourage fluffy lists. Imperials v Chaos v Xenos events always feel like people build/bring their fluffy armies and do less cheesemongering.

LeSwordfish

2015-10-07, 12:17 PM

What colour are the bases' rims, and what colours did you use for the Camo Cloaks?

Bases are Dawnstone, with the painted sand on top washed with Nuln Oil. Camo cloaks are:

Rough splodges of sand.
Coating of Dawnstone
Rough splodges of Eshin Grey and Administratum Grey
Wash of Nuln Oil.

(Pretty much everything else is either Averland Sunset or Joakero Orange, washed with... Something Orange wash. I'm a very lazy painter, but i think the scheme has turned out well, and i've had lots of compliments on the unit En Masse.)

I also got a game with my Eldar - A friend at the local wargames club wanted to try his new marines out, so I proxied some fire dragons and gave him a game.

Eldar, Combined Arms Detachment
Farseer Maibh - Skyrunner, Singing Spear
6 Windrunner Jetbikes - Warlock, Singing Spear
6 Windrunner Jetbikes - Warlock, Singing Spear, 3x Scatter Lasers, 3x Shuriken Catapults
Fire Dragons x8 - Exarch, (Firepike) Wave Serpent (Bright Lances)
Vyper - Eldar Missile Launcher
Falcon - Bright Lance

This list (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/Battle%20reports/2015-10-07%2012.35.40.jpg) has all the models I own, including my Autarch masquerading as a Warlock, and a handful of sternguard playing the role of Fire Dragons. They're the right color and armed the right way, though - proxies don't get much closer.

Space Marines, CAD
Captain - Artificier Armor, Relic Blade
10 Tactical Marines - Missile Launcher, Flamer, Razorback (Twin-Linked Lascannons)
6 Tactical Marines - Flamer, Razorback (Twin-Linked Lascannons)
5x Terminators
Dreadnought - Multi-melta
Razorback (Twin-linked Assault Cannons)

That Formation With The Whirlwind And The Land Speeders
Whirlwind
Land Speeder - 2x Multi-meltas

Who remembers Assault On Black Reach? This guy, apparently. It's not a bad army for such an inauspicious start, and well on track to being a very nasty Gladius - the whirlwind and speeder are the cheapest auxillary for that, apparently, though i'd rather take something, like, useful. The terminators were in reserve, and the marines combat squadded to ride in the razorbacks. - all that was on the board at deployment was a wall of tanks. He was using the Black Templars tactics.

Deployment
We roll for mission. The dice rolls across the table, onto the floor, and bounces off the balcony area we were playing on and down to the floor below. We roll again, more carefully - Purge The Alien. I win the roll-off and decide to let him setup first. Maibh rolls her powers on the Eldar table, and gets Mind War, Eldricht Storm, and Mind War Guide - the warlock with the scatterbikes gets the one that messes with initiative, and the warlock with the normal bikes gets the one that messes with strength. His warlord gets Feel No Pain - goddamn it, and he deploys his wall of tanks fairly close together, with the whirlwind in the centre, two Laserbacks on one side, and the Dreadnought, the Assback (with captain) and the speeder on the other, rather better hidden by cover.

Maibh gets 6" run d3 units scout for her warlord trait, and I deploy as in the picture (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/Battle%20reports/20151007_130828.jpg), behind cover as best I can, with the Falcon on one side and the serpent in the centre. Maibh accompanies the scatterbikes - I've found using her as a buff factory for them and the falcon to be as good a use as any for her. I roll my D3 scout - 3, thank you - and scoot the serpent and bikes forward, out of cover, ready to leap forward and blow **** up.

It is at this point I remember how deployment works. The player who wins the roll-off does not choose who goes first: the player who deploys first does. Oops. I scouted out of cover. Double oops. I feebly roll for Sieze... it's a six! Luck has saved me from poor decisions again!

Turn One
The wave serpent moves six more inches, turns sideways, and the Dragons deploy within melta-range of one Laserback. I miss Combat Squads. Everything but the falcon races forward, and i roll a six for my psychic dice. Both warlocks successfully manifest Conceal, Maibh Guides the falcon, and uses her final three dice to perils of the warp Rune re-roll into dropping an Eldricht Storm on the dreadnought, glancing it. Everything then starts shooting. The dragons explode their target - both one of them and one of the marines within die in the explosion. The occupants are pinned, and the jetbikes and Vyper between them can only kill one of them. The Serpent and Falcon together glance another laserback to death, and then Maibh's unit uses singing spears and scatter lasers to destroy the whirlwind. Three kill points to me, in one turn, plus First Blood. The dragons Run backwards into the large building, and I make Assault moves backwards - the ordinary bikes successfully leap behind cover, but Maibh's unit rolls snake-eyes and can only crawl away.

In his turn, one squad of forcibly disembarked marines hurls themselves towards the dragons, while the tactical squad with the captain drive forward and hop out next to the advancing dreadnought - the plan is that the dread ties up Maibh and her squad, ready for the Captain to charge in later. The land speeder lines up a side shot on my Falcon. His shooting is, thankfully, fairly feeble - I elect not to Jink with Maibh's squad, who take a flamer and boltguns with no casualties, and then I elect not to Jink against the assault cannon, which immediately Rends with two shots - Shrouded comes through for me though, and they escape unscathed. The falcon jinks, and the speeder is unable to damage it, and the dreadnought misses with it's melta.

His Dreadnought charges, and instantly receives a singing spear through the faceplate, followed by enough scatter laser shots to take it's final Hull Point. The dragons overwatch is less effective - they melt one tactical marine, but the other four get through... looking back on it, they disembarked from a destroyed vehicle so they should have been unable to charge. Ah well. Black Templars get Rage when you kill one of them with overwatch! !!! They have a very scary amount of attacks. The exarch challenges the sargeant, and is immediately chopped in half, but no other casualties are taken and they manage to pass their leadership test.

Turn Two
My turn starts with the falcon speeding off around behind the large cover, and the wave serpent moving to prepare shots at the living razorback or his captain. (Picture taken after this. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/Battle%20reports/20151007_140127.jpg)) Maibh's unit spreads out a bit, and the jetbikes on the flank push forward in the hope of ending the marines from the Laserback. I roll a two for psychic dice, and Maibh Guides her own unit, before trying to Shroud the bikes - only her squad achieves it. The captain could be very nasty in close combat - he'll slice Maibh to shreds with equivalent initiatives and AP3 - so I concentrate my shooting on his unit - scatter lasers, shuriken cannons and two singing spears, followed by the Serpent's bright lances, only kill the unit and not the captain - I grit my teeth and fire the other squad of bikes at him, and they take one wound with a lucky Bladestorm, but he's still up and running. I could have fired the Serpent Shield, but that speeder and it's meltas are giving me a funny look, so I don't (you'll notice my back is to the board edge). In the assault phase, Maibh and her unit roll boxcars to retreat and run to hide behind the building, but the other bike unit does less well. The dragons beat a marine to death, but the marines inflict a casualty of their own in return so we stay drawn.

His turn (start (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13673854/Battle%20reports/20151007_141907.jpg)) he brings his terminators in, and as luck would have it they don't scatter far - they land between Maibh's bikes and the Falcon's rear. His captain runs towards them to be with his 2+ save bros, but he's just too far to join them this turn. The terminators shoot Maibh's squad, without any damage thanks to 3+ armor. The land speeder penetrates my Wave Serpent twice, but Serpent Shield, so they're both glancing hits. The Assback blows up one of the bikes from the other unit with a Rend that I wasn't shrouded against, and then they get charged by the survivors from the laserback destroyed by the dragons. Overwatch kills another one - but that just makes them mad. The warlock rolls a "one" to wound with his singing spear, then the jetbikes fail to do any damage, but the marines roll a wide collection of ones and twos to hit and my squad escapes unscathed.

Turn Three
Normally i'd start thinking about objectives now, but this is Purge so... whatever. The wave serpent targets the land speeder that unwisely got it's attention, and Maibh and her squad fly over for some one-on-one time with the captain. I get only a few psychic dice - a shame, since I'd wanted to drop an Eldricht Storm on the bunched-up terminators. I content myself with Guiding Maibh's squad again, and then put four dice into Mind War.

Maibh ordered her bike slowed to a halt, and looked deep into the templar's eyes, ancient runes and forbidden lore burning away the feeble human defenses the pathetic creature was content with.

Two successes. Re-roll the failures. Four successes. Even with Adamantium Will, he can't Deny that, and he's outside his unit so when it hits, it hits him alone.

Her will bored deep into it's brain, twisting and writhing like a worm, scorching memories, senses, burning out everything that gave this monster sentience as it desperately tried to resist.

Equivalent leaderships: Maibh rolls a five, the templar rolls a two. Three wounds!

There, there was the spark of life at the creatures core. Maibh twisted her will around it...

Two failed invulnerable saves, two failed FnP rolls. He's down.

And tightened, snuffing it out like a candle. The body of the templar fell, a husk.

...And then I get to shoot! Sheer volume of fire from the Scatterbikes kills four terminators, and the falcon kills the last. On the other side of the board, the Wave serpent shoots at the Land Speeder. It Jinks past the Bright Lance, but the Serpent shield ignores cover and bounces it away on a wall of force. In the assault phase, the dragons are finally run down, and Maibh and her unit move up towards the combat, in case I want them to join... i'm not sure I do.

In his turn the Assback shoots Maibh's squad, but they Jink and survive. The two marines that killed the dragons join the ongoing combat with the jetbikes - one is killed in the fight, but they pass their leadership test to remain.

Turn Four
In my turn four, I try and buff the jetbike squad in combat, but kill Maibh's warlock with a Perils wound. The vehicles team up to kill the assback, and my opponent concedes. Whoever wins the combat - and there's no guarantee it'll be him - he'll have to face the shooting of three vehicles and six jetbikes before he can assault again, and if he can't, it's a wipeout. Casualties to him are everything but six tactical marines - to me it's one bike, one warlock, and eight fire dragons. Hell of a good round, I'll say.

I'm unconvinced by the dragons - or, at least, I certainly don't need so many of them. Five would probably be enough - i've got Bright Lances for av14 - leaving me with ~80 points (I don't need the firepike either) - and I could take more bikes with that instead. Equally, more bikes instead of the second Warlock- i could get five or six with the spare points. In the long term I want to replace the Falcon with something, too, but for now I think it holds it's own.

While i'm trying things out, i'll try some D-scythe Wraithguard. I also want to try running Maibh with straight Divination instead of the Eldar powers - they're nice, but I think at a more competitive level the extra buffs will see me better than a couple of witchfires.

*.*.*.*

2015-10-07, 04:50 PM

So, I'm theory crafting a list on Battlescribe as I paint and assemble a huge batch of eighty guys; but I have some questions before I throw some serious dosh around. These are 30k, but will be played in my super-duper casual 40k meta(Marine heavy as crud atm)

1) 4 Castellax in a Castellan detachment: Yay or neigh? 340 points for 4 T7 4W MC with Ap 3 ranged attacks sounds nifty
2) Assuming all 5 Questoris Knights in a Knight Crusade army, what role should each knight take? I'm thinking Lancer for Seneschal(4+invuln is tempting). Magaera and Acheron for martials. Castigator for preceptor and Stryx for Arbolestor

Blackhawk748

2015-10-07, 06:14 PM

Conclave of the Burning One looks sweet. Add a God Shackle and you have a T 8 Nightbringer with "extra wounds". At that point hes giggling about an awful lot of stuff.

peacenlove

2015-10-08, 03:54 AM

Conclave of the Burning One looks sweet. Add a God Shackle and you have a T 8 Nightbringer with "extra wounds". At that point hes giggling about an awful lot of stuff.

He really needs wraith support because a decent horde unit will lock him in combat for the rest of the game and melee poison will kill him (as cheap as 20 hormagants).
However the Conclave deals with things a Canoptec harvest cant deal (FMC, Invisibility) so it works very well in place of a second or a 3rd harvest.

Blackhawk748

2015-10-08, 05:50 AM

He really needs wraith support because a decent horde unit will lock him in combat for the rest of the game and melee poison will kill him (as cheap as 20 hormagants).
However the Conclave deals with things a Canoptec harvest cant deal (FMC, Invisibility) so it works very well in place of a second or a 3rd harvest.

Oh totally, dont run that thing solo.

Requizen

2015-10-08, 10:17 AM

The Conclave is the only "Deathstar" I consider running at the moment, it's quite good if kitted out. It's still fairly slow (6" move), but unlike most of the other Necron 'Stars, it has a very small footprint and if you decide to teleport it with the Veil, it has a much, much smaller chance to just die to mishaps. Also, if you're just walking it, it's immune to most small arms fire and has some solid shooting of its own thanks to Powers and SoLs.

The other thing is that it's not *really* a Deathstar (hence the quotes above). More like a mini-Star. It can't just charge anything and win, it's durable but not "uber-Deathstar" durable, and it's not shooting as hard as something like mega-buffed Grav Cents. But, it is pretty darn durable for the points cost. The way I run it is around 445 points. That gives it Solar Staff, one Phase Shifter or Chronometron (to taste), a teleport, and T8. That's pretty expensive, but not as much so as most full on 'Stars. It's more like a massively powerful distraction - hard to deal with, but not impossible, still leaving enough points for the rest of your army.

Requizen

2015-10-08, 11:38 PM

Painting & Modeling update since people are doing that.

First, a new Display Board (http://i.imgur.com/2Tp7Bze.jpg) that was built by and painted by my beautiful, wonderful fiancee. I told her what I kind of wanted it to look like, she made this amazing piece in a couple hours with a corkboard and some leftover paint and snow flock.

This is my custom Overlord (http://imgur.com/a/hIiXE) (or Lord, depending). Just a Lychguard body with a modified Warscythe and Green Stuff cloak. Name still pending, has to earn it first.

Here are my Canoptek Wraiths (http://imgur.com/a/CfafW). I had a lot of fun on the conversion ones, and they've already proved quite good.

Night Scythes/Doom Scythes (http://imgur.com/a/50u4x). I rarely use all 3 (did at an event once just to see how it would go, pretty well), but I like having them around.

These are my Lychguard with Hyperphase Swords and Dispersion Shields (http://imgur.com/a/kFWNi). I love these guys aesthetically, and I'll probably end up getting 10 more to put with Warscythes.

Normally, they run side by side with Orikan the Diviner (http://imgur.com/a/vL37Y). I really like this model, one of my favorite special character sculpts. Just a crazy Cryptek with his staff, gives a sense of the millenia-old insanity.

And last but not least in this update we have Varguard Obyron (http://imgur.com/a/iWh6I). I had painted up Nemesor Zahndrekh (http://imgur.com/a/HKoue) a while ago, and they look quite good together in my opinion. Another awesome special character, cool sculpt with a simple, yet intimidating, pose. Really liked working on Obyron, think he turned out ok too.

Not sure what's next. Probably all of the Scarabs and Spyders so I can do some Canoptek Harvest shenanigans.

Cheesegear

2015-10-09, 08:57 AM

First, a new Display Board (http://i.imgur.com/2Tp7Bze.jpg) that was built by and painted by my beautiful, wonderful fiancee.

My SO isn't that cool. That said, I've been focused on getting 1850 in 3 months done - which I'm going to fail at, BTW - that I completely forgot about Armies on Parade this year, which I actually wanted to do this year, because I had a really cool idea for a display board, and I had a plan... But then I decided to paint my tournament army and things just... Didn't happen.

Here are my Canoptek Wraiths (http://imgur.com/a/CfafW).

I like 'em.

Really liked working on Obyron, think he turned out ok too.

I don't like Obyron purely for the reason that he's holding his weapon wrong. Presuming that he's right-handed, his left hand should be palm outwards. It's equally as bothersome as that Sanguinary Guard who is also holding his sword completely wrong. :smallannoyed:

Requizen

2015-10-09, 09:45 AM

My SO isn't that cool. That said, I've been focused on getting 1850 in 3 months done - which I'm going to fail at, BTW - that I completely forgot about Armies on Parade this year, which I actually wanted to do this year, because I had a really cool idea for a display board, and I had a plan... But then I decided to paint my tournament army and things just... Didn't happen.

Mine is pretty much both - every time I went to a tourney, I was tired of being the only guy without a display board. Plus, a few extra points on the paint/display category never helps when they judge that :smallbiggrin:

I don't like Obyron purely for the reason that he's holding his weapon wrong. Presuming that he's right-handed, his left hand should be palm outwards. It's equally as bothersome as that Sanguinary Guard who is also holding his sword completely wrong. :smallannoyed:

I always thought it was less of a combat pose and more of a stoic, "if you want to get to Zahndrekh you have to go through me" type pose. Which is cool in my book.

Voidhawk

2015-10-09, 12:12 PM

I don't like Obyron purely for the reason that he's holding his weapon wrong. Presuming that he's right-handed, his left hand should be palm outwards. It's equally as bothersome as that Sanguinary Guard who is also holding his sword completely wrong. :smallannoyed:

Maybe he's left-handed? Does that make the pose any better from a weaponry point of view?

Blackhawk748

2015-10-09, 03:30 PM

Maybe he's left-handed? Does that make the pose any better from a weaponry point of view?

Not really, his palm should be outwards if hes left handed, and if hes right hes got the warscythe backwards

This is what it should be right handed:

http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/18/17148/thumb_620x2000/necron_lord_staff_diorama.jpg

Hafted weapons usually have the "head" closest to your dominant hand.

peacenlove

2015-10-09, 03:44 PM

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?60188-New-Tau-and-Marines-WD-10-17-2015&p=516131&viewfull=1#post516131

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15965&d=1444419459

4+/5++ save for 9 points per model + 12 for the drone which provides the invurnerable. Pretty impressive.

LeSwordfish

2015-10-09, 03:54 PM

I shan't bore you with the details of today's game, but I shall note that Squad Paris killed a Chaos Lord.:smallcool:

Erloas

2015-10-09, 04:03 PM

Having no idea who he was I had to search to find the model.
He is clearly not in a fighting stance. That wouldn't be a bad way to hold a weapon at rest, it wouldn't wear out your muscles like many more "active" stances might, but you would never go into combat like that.

Blackhawk748

2015-10-09, 04:26 PM

Erloas

2015-10-09, 04:45 PM

Cheesegear

2015-10-09, 06:11 PM

I always thought it was less of a combat pose and more of a stoic, "if you want to get to Zahndrekh you have to go through me" type pose. Which is cool in my book.

But it doesn't even look like that. It looks like he's trying to deadlift the Warscythe, and, given how his arms are locked, it almost looks like the 'scythe is even too heavy (probably because he skips leg day). But, I get it. I have nothing wrong with the pose, itself, or the lines of the model. The only problem I have with Obyron is that if he actually wants to swing the 'scythe, his left hand needs to be supinated (facing outwards).

EDIT:
It's a shame that the next campaign kit will have Tau and Raven Guard. Imperial Guard would have been a much better choice, narratively and for the future (that 'New AM Codex' rumour keeps circling), but, then again, Imperial Guard aren't Space Marines, and you have to put Marines in the kit.

Drasius

2015-10-10, 03:28 AM

Also, in other news, I forgot to mention I manage to pick up the paint comp award for my Sisters last month.

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlf1/t31.0-8/12045399_1003926496296402_7603835753082130502_o.jp g

Really happy with how they turned out, especially for my first time painting faces. The only thing I don't like so much is their bolters, but I don't hate them either, so all is well.

Back to Tau rumours and pics; New crisis and commander for the Tau release too.

http://i.imgur.com/BnJlUvw.png

Rumour says Tau and Ravenguard kits will be seperate releases, so you can buy them individually, so now you don't need to split it with a friend (or conviniently collect both armies already).

I quite like the new Tau fortification, but not for $265 AUD

Wraith

2015-10-10, 05:08 AM

But I think if I'm going to get that to happen, I first have to get my wife interested in models. So that is where the question is, who makes some really good steampunk models? I've seen a few in the Bones line, but usually nothing more than a few individual models. Anyone know of good manufacturers for steampunk models? Not just people but cars, blimps, trains, and all of those sorts of things?

I'm not familiar with any well known manufacturer of steampunk vehicles, though I dare say you could find a niche market for some.

For people and monsters, however, the Malifaux range by Wyrd Miniatures is a really good place to start. I personally am also a fan of some of the Warmachine/Hordes models - of particular interest to you might be the Mercenaries faction.

bluntpencil

2015-10-10, 07:12 AM

Maybe Raven Guard will get something to make them not godawful?

Drasius

2015-10-10, 08:02 AM

Cheesegear

2015-10-10, 08:13 AM

5 sternguard, 5 vanguard, a landspeeder and a captain with a power sword and plasma pistol (no jump pack). Not sure how you can manage to mash that together into decent rules.

If it's anything like other campaign kits, Captain Solaq (and undoubtedly the other units) will have extra special rules, maybe a fixed Warlord Trait (for better or worse), and maybe some discounted wargear if you're lucky. Then put them all together to make a Strike Force Solaq Formation. Not everything in the kit will be useful - they never are - but Blood Angels got ObSec Death Company and a DC Dread in the Troops slot in their campaign, even if the Terminators and Karlean are sub-par. Orks got Grukk Face-Rippa, while he's not the best Ork character, for the 'casual' crowd that these sets are aimed at, Grukk is legitimately one of the better choices that you could make.

Here's hoping.

Requizen

2015-10-10, 11:23 AM

I would honestly play SM if Raven Guard were good, by far my favorite chapter. Maybe we'll see the formations/rules.

Cheesegear

2015-10-10, 06:48 PM

I would honestly play SM if Raven Guard were good, by far my favorite chapter.

Why? Deliverance Lost was really boring - except the last few Chapters - but that could just be Gav Thorpe being terrible. But then you go to other stories not written by Gav Thorpe, and practically every Raven Guard is interchangeable with another one, since nobody seems to be able to not just make copies of Shrike. I honestly have no idea why anybody would like the Raven Guard.

But, this feels like a Fluff discussion, so I'll stop.

Cristo Meyers

2015-10-10, 08:17 PM

So that is where the question is, who makes some really good steampunk models? I've seen a few in the Bones line, but usually nothing more than a few individual models. Anyone know of good manufacturers for steampunk models? Not just people but cars, blimps, trains, and all of those sorts of things?

Don't know any specifically steampunk lines, but Malifaux as mentioned comes closest. You'll have to pick and choose, though.

Cheesegear

2015-10-11, 04:28 AM

Blackhawk748

2015-10-11, 08:50 AM

LeSwordfish

2015-10-11, 10:05 AM

5 sternguard, 5 vanguard, a landspeeder and a captain with a power sword and plasma pistol (no jump pack). Not sure how you can manage to mash that together into decent rules.

Nope, Ravenguard have clearly made a deal with Chaos and are to be the designated chew toys that Black Templar players can point at and laugh.

The vanguard aren't terrible, though I bet the thunder hammer guy is the sargeant. You have to try really hard to **** up sternguard though, and try GW did. Plasma pistol and Storm bolter?

Requizen

2015-10-11, 11:49 AM

Why? Deliverance Lost was really boring - except the last few Chapters - but that could just be Gav Thorpe being terrible. But then you go to other stories not written by Gav Thorpe, and practically every Raven Guard is interchangeable with another one, since nobody seems to be able to not just make copies of Shrike. I honestly have no idea why anybody would like the Raven Guard.

But, this feels like a Fluff discussion, so I'll stop.

I haven't read too much BL for Space Marines, I just like the fluff that there's one chapter that doesn't paint themselves in bright colors and actually tries to use subterfuge when it's necessary. Or at least, a Loyalust chapter that does, out of the original Legions I probably like Alpha Legion the best.

bluntpencil

2015-10-11, 12:11 PM

I haven't read too much BL for Space Marines, I just like the fluff that there's one chapter that doesn't paint themselves in bright colors and actually tries to use subterfuge when it's necessary. Or at least, a Loyalust chapter that does, out of the original Legions I probably like Alpha Legion the best.

I'm sure you're talking about the Raptors, as opposed to the Raven Guard.

The Raptors are basically Reasonable Marines.

Drasius

2015-10-11, 12:42 PM

So, Ghostkeel...
Basically, it has a 2+ Cover Save all the time, and exactly once per game, one unit can only fire Snap Shots against it. It has a CIR for AP4, and a lot of shots for shooting at Fliers, and it's got a Melta, Blast weapon. Offensively, it's not even bad. Potentially even better than the Riptide at 130 Points. Relying on its Cover Save, and not its 3+ Armour, means that it's even less vulnerable to Grav Drops than Riptides.

But, 2+ Cover all the time? Sounds like a Nurgle Daemon Prince. Except every unit is always shooting Snap Shots at Nurgle Princes thanks to Flying.

If you can deal with Wraithknights, Stormsurges are no problem.
If you can deal with Nurgle 'Princes, Ghostkeels are not a problem, either.

Move along, nothing to see here. Since we all know what we really want to know is whether or not Crisis Suits get buffed or nerfed. :smallamused:

It's got a twin linked flamer and the small blast melta and can trade the melta for the 6 shot autocannon and may trade the flamer for a twin linked burst cannon for 5 or TL Fusion blaster for 10 points. I don't see many people ever bothering with anything but the 6 shot autocannon personally. One of the questions is if you take a squadron of 3, can they use the holo thingy to force snap shots 3 times?

Not to mention that Nurgle princes are 355 points opposed to the ghostkeel's 130 (before toys).

Those drones are also mandatory apparently and are T5, wonder if this is special just for them like the shielded missile drones for the 'Tide are T6?

I suspect you'll see a minor buff to crisis, maybe a point or 2 reduction and access to the previously experimental only weapons (cyclic ion blaster and airbursting frag launcher), though hopefully those weapons get a buff 'cause they were pretty crap, though the CIB might have some merit hen taken en mass.

Cheesegear

2015-10-11, 06:08 PM

You have to try really hard to **** up sternguard though, and try GW did. Plasma pistol and Storm bolter?

QFT.

I haven't read too much BL for Space Marines, I just like the fluff that there's one chapter that doesn't paint themselves in bright colors and actually tries to use subterfuge when it's necessary. Or at least, a Loyalust chapter that does...

The problem is that black armour only works at night (and then not really, because it's really a very dark green, purple...Thing. If there's a moon out, night time isn't actually black). But, even then, to really do it, what you need is to be constantly changing your armour patterns every time you visit a new world. If you went to an ice world, you want white/beige armour, if you go to a jungle, you need camo, if you go to a desert, you need yellow/ochre armour. Black armour doesn't work in any of these places. In fact, on a desert world, black armour would literally be the worst choice you could make.

Space Marines don't really do subterfuge (in any capacity, at all, by any Chapter), because they don't need subterfuge. They're Power Armoured dudes with Boltguns. The only reason you need stealth is if you don't plan on murdering dudes, and that's not how Space Marines roll.

At best, you want Raptors or Mantis Warriors. But certainly not Raven Guard.

One of the questions is if you take a squadron of 3, can they use the holo thingy to force snap shots 3 times?

"Declare that the unit will will use the Holophoton Countermeasures."

Who knows?

Not to mention that Nurgle princes are 355 points opposed to the ghostkeel's 130 (before toys).

Nurgle Princes Fly and Summon. I'm fairly certain that it's fair.

Those drones are also mandatory apparently and are T5, wonder if this is special just for them like the shielded missile drones for the 'Tide are T6?

Well I think so.

iyaerP

2015-10-12, 01:20 AM

So between the AoS "incident" and checking out Warseer I've thought about doing a show army. But not a 40k (or fantasy) show army, but I figured of the active threads on the miniatures side of gaming this was the best place to go.

I had thought about doing a WHF one, but given their ever escalating prices I don't see that happening. Warseer mentioned the Perry brothers, and after a bit of a search I think I had seen them before but never would have remembered them. They look great and they're very well priced.

But I think if I'm going to get that to happen, I first have to get my wife interested in models. So that is where the question is, who makes some really good steampunk models? I've seen a few in the Bones line, but usually nothing more than a few individual models. Anyone know of good manufacturers for steampunk models? Not just people but cars, blimps, trains, and all of those sorts of things?

Dystopian wars is pretty good for steapunk stuff, although theirs tend a lot more towards giant airships, giant tanks and wierd robots rather than anything human scale.

http://cdn3.volusion.com/gnclv.fjgyd/v/vspfiles/photos/DWI1503-2.jpg
http://cdn3.volusion.com/gnclv.fjgyd/v/vspfiles/photos/DWI0217-2.jpg?1415246315
http://cdn3.volusion.com/gnclv.fjgyd/v/vspfiles/photos/DWI0116-2.jpg?1413337898
http://cdn3.volusion.com/gnclv.fjgyd/v/vspfiles/photos/DWI0117-2.jpg?1413337986
http://cdn3.volusion.com/gnclv.fjgyd/v/vspfiles/photos/DWI0617-2.jpg

Turalisj

2015-10-12, 04:02 AM

Working up an 1850pt skitarii//cult mechanicus list. I have 10 rangers with an arquebus, 3 squads of 10 vanguard kitted out with arc rifles, 3 squads of 3 destroyers with grav and flamers, a unit of robots with phosphor, a dunecrawler with a neutron blaster, and a tech priest as my warlord. Oh, and an aegis defense line for the destroyers to camp behind.

Erloas

2015-10-12, 11:44 AM

I'm not familiar with any well known manufacturer of steampunk vehicles, though I dare say you could find a niche market for some.

For people and monsters, however, the Malifaux range by Wyrd Miniatures is a really good place to start. I personally am also a fan of some of the Warmachine/Hordes models - of particular interest to you might be the Mercenaries faction.
I've looked over them, some pretty good options.

Dystopian wars is pretty good for steapunk stuff, although theirs tend a lot more towards giant airships, giant tanks and wierd robots rather than anything human scale.

http://cdn3.volusion.com/gnclv.fjgyd/v/vspfiles/photos/DWI1503-2.jpg
http://cdn3.volusion.com/gnclv.fjgyd/v/vspfiles/photos/DWI0217-2.jpg?1415246315
http://cdn3.volusion.com/gnclv.fjgyd/v/vspfiles/photos/DWI0116-2.jpg?1413337898
http://cdn3.volusion.com/gnclv.fjgyd/v/vspfiles/photos/DWI0117-2.jpg?1413337986
http://cdn3.volusion.com/gnclv.fjgyd/v/vspfiles/photos/DWI0617-2.jpg
Those are really cool, thanks. I'll check out more of their stuff for sure.

Edit: It appears Dystopian Leagions is their infantry scale game. Have you played the game at all? Don't want to derail the thread to that, but if you have please let me know in the board gaming thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?322238-Board-Games!) as that is where I'm going to see if anyone else knows about the game(s).

Requizen

2015-10-12, 02:01 PM

Blackhawk748

2015-10-12, 05:16 PM

I think That Suit is gonna be a problem, though i feel allowing the experimental rules is, in general good as it helps other people more.

Ricky S

2015-10-12, 09:55 PM

I'm really feeling the pain of using blood angels. My record at the moment is 0-0-4 W-D-L which is really weird for me to experience when my imperial guard is something like 17-2-4. Its not necessarily a bad thing as the games have been close and its makes for more fun games in a pretty casual local meta rather than just stomping players. I've also had fun playing to the fluff.

Things I have learnt:
-Terminators are definitely terrible, running a space hulk (all termies) list in anything other than zone mortalis is a bad idea.
-My furiosos have been great and wipe units with ease using their fragcannons and flamers.
-Dante is awesome but can't win the game alone.
-I need drop pods

I have another game tomorrow so ill see if I can get that elusive win.

Annoyingly I have a strong desire to start an Ork army which will most likely suffer worse than my BA.

Cheesegear

2015-10-12, 11:56 PM

ITC voted to allow Experimental Rules from FW into their events, based on community feedback and emails from FW basically saying "Until an IA comes out, consider Experimental Rules to be the legitimate version of the rules for models". I wonder if more tournaments will follow suit in the future.
[...]
What do you guys think?

I'm happy for it to happen once or twice to see how it goes. But, until it actually gets put into effect, it's hard to determine what effect it's going to have. I'll tell you what I think after I see it an action and whether or not 7 of the Top 8 of any given list are running Experimental Units. Remember how we felt when we first heard tournaments were allowing Forge World Super-Heavies? We saw a Lynx-on-a-Skyshield, and a Brass Scorpion...But that was it, and neither of those lists even came in Top 3.

The ITC has also ruled that you can take multiple Stormsurges in the same slot. But you only get the one LoW slot, like normal - except Knights...Because.

Is the Y'Vahra going to steamroll everything alongside the new Tau book? Or are the Experimental rules balanced enough that it won't break the meta singlehandedly?

Who knows? Release of the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge has been met with a resounding 'Meh'. Tau still can't Battle Brother in any Psykers to give their Gargantuans and/or MCs Invisibility, so... Yeah. Lame as it sounds, if the Y'Vahra is the only thing that Tau have going for them, it may not be worth it. Although the Y'Vahra is really good. So...Maybe? It's hard to talk about anything Tau at this point.

Chaos Knights make Chaos Marines playable in the Super-Heavy meta.

The Xiphon Interceptor is potentially broke. But Tau will have to bring out the big guns (literally), and pray that the Skyfire+Interceptor combo doesn't rise above 25 Points (seriously though, 5 Point Interceptor is really, really dumb). If there are negative changes to how Tau Skyfire works (including Points costs), the Interceptor will be very strong.

Khorne Daemonkin isn't exactly a Codex that's hurting, but, any Super-Heavy on the Chaos side that isn't a Lord of Skulls, is alright by me. Only makes Daemonkin even stronger. It's also a Daemon so is affected by Cursed Earth, and that's strong an- Point is; Kytans. Get on it.

I'm just in the process of waiting for my Knight Acheron, which has AP3 Template weapons and Stomps (roll them 6s), which is the bane of the Ravenwing Bandwagon that currently exists.
:smallamused:
Speaking of the bandwagon, over the weekend, I saw a Heldrake and Tzeentch Daemon Prince with the Burning Brand put the BikerWolf Star in its place. Kill the Apothecary with AP3 Templates, and the whole thing falls apart. In said same weekend, I brought back my Lysander, Vaylund Cal Mephiston and 4 Vindicators list, which works even better under new Space Marines with the triple Vindicator bonus that gives them Ignores Cover - just knock out that Ravenwing 3+rr Jink and you're sweet.

peacenlove

2015-10-13, 04:06 AM

I have a question to the great minds here.
Whats your opinion on Skarbrand as an Ally of convenience for a necron melee heavy list (think decurion + 2 canoptecs.)?

Grim Portent

2015-10-13, 05:15 AM

I have a question to the great minds here.
Whats your opinion on Skarbrand as an Ally of convenience for a necron melee heavy list (think decurion + 2 canoptecs.)?

I would lean towards that not being a great way to use him. He moves slowly while Wraiths move fast, Necrons can't use any psychic powers or the grimoire to protect him so he can get shot to death very easily and if you want to Deepstrike him you risk full scatter on a pretty big model which is likely to result in mishaps.

Cheesegear

2015-10-13, 06:35 AM

Whats your opinion on Skarbrand as an Ally of convenience for a necron melee heavy list (think decurion + 2 canoptecs.)?

It really bothers me when really (really!) expensive models are...Bad. It's the kind of feeling I got when I bought Land Raiders and then they'd just get killed. Or that time when I bought a Shadowsword only to be told that they could only be used in Apocalypse games (i.e; Almost never). When you drop a poop ton on money on anything that doesn't work, it's kind of disheartening. Skarbrand is a very tasty model for alpha stirkes, and your opponents will target him (maybe that's the point), ~99.9% of the time, you're better off with a Bloodthirster. Not that a Bloodthirster is the best choice for Necrons (that'd be Nurgle), but that a Bloodthirster is better than Skarbrand.

That said, Chaos Daemons have access to the Daemonkin Super-'Thirsters via White Dwarf, and they're even better. Super-'Thirsters are, for some reason, cheaper than Skarbrand in currency, which doesn't quite make any sense, but there it is.

But, even then, everything that Khorne does, both in the Marines book, and the Daemons book, is better done by Khorne Daemonkin. The only things you miss out on are Kharn and Skarbrand, the former is quite good, but Daemonkin don't actually need him, but the latter is - as above - no great loss.

Requizen

2015-10-13, 09:44 AM

I have a question to the great minds here.
Whats your opinion on Skarbrand as an Ally of convenience for a necron melee heavy list (think decurion + 2 canoptecs.)?

The other thing to note is that a Decurion + 2 Harvests is already pretty darn expensive. Allying is actually pretty prohibitive price-wise unless you're just cherry-picking a few units from each.

Artanis

2015-10-13, 12:51 PM

Super-'Thirsters are, for some reason, cheaper than Skarbrand in currency, which doesn't quite make any sense, but there it is.
I figure that "Model Company not Game Company" would be the most likely reason :smallfrown:

LeSwordfish

2015-10-13, 01:39 PM

What I was told- this was donkeys years back- was that character models were always more expensive, since nobody buys multiples of them.

peacenlove

2015-10-13, 04:32 PM

First of all thank you all for your responses.

The other thing to note is that a Decurion + 2 Harvests is already pretty darn expensive. Allying is actually pretty prohibitive price-wise unless you're just cherry-picking a few units from each.

I own 6 out of the 12 wraiths and I definitely plan on getting the other 6.
I just saw Skarbrand as a force multiplier (Rage and hatred double the killing power of wraiths and no need to be brothers stiked me as very strong)
Price is not an issue.

However the way I see it Necrons are very self contained and have little need for allies. Maybe that Tau formation (Firebase cadre) for interceptor.

That said, Chaos Daemons have access to the Daemonkin Super-'Thirsters via White Dwarf, and they're even better. Super-'Thirsters are, for some reason, cheaper than Skarbrand in currency, which doesn't quite make any sense, but there it is.

And Necrons are Allies of convenience for some insane reason (Khorne does not care, the Necrontyr do not care so common grounds I guess?) :smallamused:

Requizen

2015-10-13, 04:51 PM

First of all thank you all for your responses.

I own 6 out of the 12 wraiths and I definitely plan on getting the other 6.
I just saw Skarbrand as a force multiplier (Rage and hatred double the killing power of wraiths and no need to be brothers stiked me as very strong)
Price is not an issue.

I didn't mean price like money, more that if you're running a Reclamation Legion and two Harvests, that's a lot of points depending on what level you're playing at.

It is pretty interesting, though, normally Allies don't get buffs or auras (only units from the same book or Battle Brothers), but since Skarbrand affects enemies as well, it works for other Allied levels, so they would get the bonus. Unfortunately, given that Daemons are CtA allies, you have to watch out for One Eye Open and what not as well, which sucks.

However the way I see it Necrons are very self contained and have little need for allies. Maybe that Tau formation (Firebase cadre) for interceptor.

I've been thinking the same thing for Tau Allies lately. As much as I'm not the biggest Tau fan, having an Allied Detachment or Formation with some heavy shooting to supplement Necron weaknesses in that area might be pretty useful. Outside of our vehicles (which are dubious at best), our only strong shooting comes from Destroyers, and we lack things like Plasma, Melta, etc, which Tau can bring. With the new book, maybe there will be some nice Formations to toss in and take advantage of.

And Necrons are Allies of convenience for some insane reason (Khorne does not care, the Necrontyr do not care so common grounds I guess?) :smallamused:
I've always viewed Necrons and CSM/KDK alliances more along the line of "hey, you're not my dire enemy, and we can help each other". CSM bands mostly want to kill the Imperium, and the ones that are more Renegade than Heretic are probably likely to band together with Xenos to do what they want since they're not as purge-happy as their Loyalist counterparts.

On the topic of allies, I saw a list at the last tourney that was Orks + Chaos Renegades. The amount of artillery that the Renegades brought to the tabletop was insane. Something like that backing up an assault Necron army with Harvests and maybe a small Lychstar could be pretty crazy.

Cheesegear

2015-10-13, 06:49 PM

What I was told- this was donkeys years back- was that character models were always more expensive, since nobody buys multiples of them.

I have heard that too. It's possible.

I just saw Skarbrand as a force multiplier

Oh, he is. He force multiplies all over the place. Unfortunately, defensively, he's not strong. As part of a Khorne list, he doesn't get Cursed Earth, and he has no access to Greater Rewards (e.g; #1, 2 and 3), and then you need another model (Hearld or Daemon Prince) to carry the Grimoire - not that you wouldn't need that anyway, regardless of what you took. Without Wings, Skarbrand doesn't even Jink.

Either Skarbrand hides in Cover all game, or he dies. Neither of which are good uses of 225 Points.

"Skarbrand? Nobody uses him. What's he do?"
Everything within 12" gains Rage and Hatred.
*Looks at Skarbrand, and then to the Wraiths*
"...Ohhh...I see what you're doing. He only has a 5+ Invulnerable, right?"
...Yes.
"I kill him."

However, Skarbrand does have BS10. You can always put him behind an Emplaced Weapon (and Cover), and watch him go to work.

Unfortunately, given that Daemons are CtA allies, you have to watch out for One Eye Open and what not as well, which sucks.

One Eye Open has the same range as his auras. Yay!

I've always viewed Necrons and CSM/KDK alliances more along the line of "hey, you're not my dire enemy, and we can help each other".

Isn't that how all Alliances of Convenience works?

Turalisj

2015-10-13, 07:58 PM

Here's my planned list. Models are already put together, with the idea being "that's a lot of vanguard". Enough shooting to scare most anyone, either with the grav (that's 96 grav shots with possible reroll 1 or 2 twice per game for the whole round) or the rad-carbines (with 3 rounds of boosted BS at 6, 5, and 4) with 120 shots with to-wound rolls of 6 being doubles.

If you can't tell, my meta likes big scary single units where I like to run a good deal of guys.

+++ skitarii 1850 (1850pts) +++

++ Skitarii: Codex (2015) (Skitarii Maniple) ++

+ Troops +

Skitarii Rangers [Arc rifle, Omnispex, 9x Skitarii Ranger, Transuranic arquebus]
Ranger Alpha [Galvanic rifle, Power sword]

Skitarii Vanguard [Arc rifle, Omnispex, 9x Skitarii Vanguard]
Vanguard Alpha [Conversion field, Power sword, Radium carbine]

Skitarii Vanguard [Arc rifle, Omnispex, 9x Skitarii Vanguard]
Vanguard Alpha [Conversion field, Power sword, Radium carbine]

Skitarii Vanguard [Arc rifle, Omnispex, 9x Skitarii Vanguard]
Vanguard Alpha [Conversion field, Power sword, Radium carbine]

+ Heavy Support +

Onager Dunecrawlers
Onager Dunecrawler [Cognis heavy stubber, Cognis manipulator, Mindscanner probe, Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber]

++ Cult Mechanicus: Codex (2015) (Cult Mechanicus Battle Congregation) ++

+ HQ +

Tech-Priest Dominus [Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Conversion field, Digital weapons, Infoslave Skull, Macrostubber, Volkite blaster]

+ Troops +

Kataphron Destroyers
Kataphron Destroyer [Cognis flamer, Heavy grav-cannon]
Kataphron Destroyer [Cognis flamer, Heavy grav-cannon]
Kataphron Destroyer [Cognis flamer, Heavy grav-cannon]

Kataphron Destroyers
Kataphron Destroyer [Cognis flamer, Heavy grav-cannon]
Kataphron Destroyer [Cognis flamer, Heavy grav-cannon]
Kataphron Destroyer [Cognis flamer, Heavy grav-cannon]

Kataphron Destroyers
Kataphron Destroyer [Cognis flamer, Heavy grav-cannon]
Kataphron Destroyer [Cognis flamer, Heavy grav-cannon]
Kataphron Destroyer [Cognis flamer, Heavy grav-cannon]

+ Heavy Support +

Kastelan Robot Maniple
Cybernetica Datasmith [Anzion’s Pseudogenetor, Conversion field]
Kastelan Robot [Incendine combustor, Two power fists]
Kastelan Robot [Incendine combustor, Two power fists]

++ Fortifications and Stronghold Assault (2013) (Fortification Detachment) ++

+ Fortification +

Aegis Defense Line

Blackhawk748

2015-10-13, 08:17 PM

Turalisj

2015-10-13, 08:37 PM

I don't have another squad of vanguard. These are all the models I own for AdMech.

Blackhawk748

2015-10-13, 08:41 PM

I don't have another squad of vanguard. These are all the models I own for AdMech.

Ah ok, that list is solid. I would recommend getting more Vanguard, they are freakin sweet.

Turalisj

2015-10-13, 08:51 PM

They are. A squad of 10 took out an equal number of 30k legion astartes.

Blackhawk748

2015-10-13, 09:05 PM

They are. A squad of 10 took out an equal number of 30k legion astartes.

Wow, i knew they were good, i didnt think they were that good

Cheesegear

2015-10-14, 03:37 AM

I think Codex Marines has spoiled me, as I no longer know how to Blood Angel. I was asked to build an army list for a friend (small 'friendly' tournament in a few weeks), and as I looked at the Codex, I realised how amazing not paying points for Razorbacks/Drop Pods is. Did GW know that they were going to make the Gladius and Lion's Blade Formations when they wrote Blood Angels? Seems...Fairly bad. Especially when last edition, Assault Squads were Troops and got discounted Transports. Like, I don't even know what to do. Everytime I look at Blood Angels, I can only see how Codex Marines can do the same thing, better.

Is there a viable Blood Angel build that doesn't involve 7+ Drop Pods ('cause the person I'm building for doesn't have that many)? I know I wrote a Guide for Blood Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18559882&postcount=120) almost a year ago, but, at this point, with Codex Marines and Dark Angels both getting WS/BS4 Scouts, it seems like the only thing that Blood Angels have going for them, are Tactical Squads in Drop Pods with Heavy Flamers, and Assault Squads with a poop-ton of Melta and/or Grav. Oh, and the Troops units from Deathstorm.

Turalisj

2015-10-14, 05:04 AM

Ah ok, that list is solid. I would recommend getting more Vanguard, they are freakin sweet.

Oh, right, the warlord is the tech priest. If we play a game with mysterious objectives, I usually end up rolling on his chart.

LeSwordfish

2015-10-14, 11:12 AM

I wonder if the general shift from detachments to formations - in between Blood Angels and Necrons, iirc - was probably driven by Blood Angels, and the Flesh Tearers Get A Bunch Of Drop Pods For Whatever detachment. Forgive me if i'm wrong, but most Codices since have had very few detachments, preferring Decurion/Gladius/etc-style detachments of formations - with the exceptions of Harlequins and Skitarii, both of whom need them to be legal lists at all.

So, short answer no. I think at that time - whether because of the Blood Angels misuse or not - GW's writing style took a fundamental sidestep. GW do a lot of stupid things, but I personally suspect that whoever is writing their codices was, in this case at least, paying attention to what's happening. That's why the First Company isn't "3-5 elites" and so on.

EDIT: Tested out Divination with Maibh and the Eldar today - and wiped the floor within five turns, at a cost of two jetbikes and three wraithguard. That was probably my opponent's poor rolls. I think Divination is the more powerful of the powersets though... next proxy to try out is a Crimson Hunter, I think, though that might make this list a bit too nasty for a casual environment.

Cheesegear

2015-10-14, 06:16 PM

Forgive me if i'm wrong, but most Codices since have had very few detachments, preferring Decurion/Gladius/etc-style detachments of formations - with the exceptions of Harlequins and Skitarii, both of whom need them to be legal lists at all.

Well that's not true. Every Codex in 7th except Codex Marines has one unique Detachment. Dark Angels even have two! The only reason that Codex Marines don't have a unique Detachment is because the CAD is already built around Marines for the most part. The Grey Knights' Nemesis Strike Force is one of the stronger non-CADs in the game, not to mention the Tyranid Hive Fleet with 3 HQ slots. The main (only?) reason that people don't use most other Detachments, is because of the lack of Objective Secured.

Blackhawk748

2015-10-14, 07:31 PM

Well that's not true. Every Codex in 7th except Codex Marines has one unique Detachment. Dark Angels even have two! The only reason that Codex Marines don't have a unique Detachment is because the CAD is already built around Marines for the most part. The Grey Knights' Nemesis Strike Force is one of the stronger non-CADs in the game, not to mention the Tyranid Hive Fleet with 3 HQ slots. The main (only?) reason that people don't use most other Detachments, is because of the lack of Objective Secured.

I would use the Skitarri's even if they had an actual HQ to allow me to take a CAD. Army wide Scout is awesome, but ya, otherwise you're right. For example i will probably never use the Cult Mechanicus Detachment because, while nice, using one Chant twice isnt better than ObSec.

Requizen

2015-10-14, 08:38 PM

Well that's not true. Every Codex in 7th except Codex Marines has one unique Detachment. Dark Angels even have two! The only reason that Codex Marines don't have a unique Detachment is because the CAD is already built around Marines for the most part. The Grey Knights' Nemesis Strike Force is one of the stronger non-CADs in the game, not to mention the Tyranid Hive Fleet with 3 HQ slots. The main (only?) reason that people don't use most other Detachments, is because of the lack of Objective Secured.

Are you not counting the Gladius/Battle Company as a unique Detachment?

Ricky S

2015-10-15, 03:39 AM

Is there a viable Blood Angel build that doesn't involve 7+ Drop Pods ('cause the person I'm building for doesn't have that many).

How many does he have? I would tell him to use all that he has. Melta assault squads in pods and furiosos with fragcannons in pods are brutal. Apart from that death company squads with jetpacks are pretty good.

What does your friend have available?

Blackhawk748

2015-10-15, 05:50 AM

Is Death Company still viable?

Ricky S

2015-10-15, 06:20 AM

Is Death Company still viable?

Yes and no. They are way better than they used to be with jump packs and they hit like a tonne of bricks but against things like knights or vindicators they will just get wiped from a turn of shooting.

I love running a unit of 15 with just pistol and CCW. Super fun but it depends on how competitive your meta is.

I also broke my losing streak with my blood angels so now I am 1-0-4.

Cheesegear

2015-10-15, 06:53 AM

Are you not counting the Gladius/Battle Company as a unique Detachment?

Semantics, sure. But it doesn't count, 'cause Eldar get one, so do Necrons, Daemonkin, etc. I'd hardly call it unique.

Just reading the wording now, RAW, you can't use those Detachments in Unbound/Apocalypse. I can take as many individual Formations from the Gladius as I choose, but I can't combine them to form an actual Gladius, because Unbound/Apocalypse games don't use Battle-Forged armies. :smallamused:

Is Death Company still viable?

Raphen's Death Company from Deathstorm is. The other kind, not so much - at least as far as I'm concerned.

Requizen

2015-10-15, 11:58 AM

Incoming wall of text:

I think I'm going to try out a shooting Deathstar with Necrons. We don't really have any units that fit the bill (at least none that are as shoot-happy as Cents or the like), but Forge World provides an option in Sentry Pylons. An expensive, but powerful option. Attempt 1:

Necron CAD

Destroyer Lord (Veil of Darkness, Warscythe)
Anrakyr the Traveler
Sentry Pylon x3 (Focused Death Ray)

795/1850

Death Ray Sentry Pylons are Heavy, so Anrakyr is brought to give them Relentless so you can move (or teleport) and shoot. They autohit anything within 27" (and on average have a range of 34.5") and are S10 AP1 rerolling 1s to wound with the Destroyer Lord. The DLord also gives them a teleport so you can Alpha Strike with them and hopefully rip something to shreds. Anrakyr also has a Tachyon Arrow (S10 AP1 as well), which with his BS5 is hitting and wounding on 2s, rerolling thanks to the DLord. As an Alpha Strike, that's 7+ S10 AP1 attacks that are basically auto-hits and auto-wounds. From there, it's a T7 unit with 3+ armor all around and RP on the two ICs.

I would wonder how this stacks up to just the Destroyer Cult in terms of effective shooting. S10 AP1 and autohits (with no Jink allowed and ignoring Invis) is pretty great, but as generalist shooting the DCult might have the edge. However, against Wraithknights (which I continue to hate), 6 (7 with Anrakyr's Arrow) auto-hits and -wounds is basically better than anything we have otherwise against them.

Not bad. But, we can make it better.

Necron CAD

Destroyer Lord (Veil of Darkness, Warscythe)
Sentry Pylon x3 (Focused Death Ray)

Necron Royal Court Formation
Anrakyr the Traveler
Cryptek (Chronometron, Solar Staff)
Varguard Obyron

1020/1850

Wow, that's expensive! But, for the extra 225 points, you get 4+ RP, another teleport, 5++ against all shooting, and the ever powerful Solar Staff. Not to mention Obyron's amazing Assault potential, so now you have 3 Warscythes with good WS and PE(E!) against anything that tries to assault it. And both teleports can be used to jump out of combat if you get tied up.

For comparison, the big shooting deathstar that most people know and love/hate is Centstar. A Centstar of Draigo/ML3 GK Libby/Tigirius/3 Grav Cents with Omniscope is 795 (same as base Sentrystar) or more if you add in Coteaz (you should), more Cents, or have a Librarian Council with Tiggy.

While Grav is pretty scary and there are more shots/hits on average even if you don't get Divination, autohitting with S10 AP1 is pretty crazy and is much more effective against vehicles (aka Knights). The two teleports of Sentrystar is less than always having Gate, but is more reliable since it's not a Psychic Power. One turn of Invis also isn't as good as having the Power, but automatically goes off and can't be denied as well (though with Librarian Conclave it might as well auto-cast).

How does one build a list around this expensive 'star? Well, as expected, Wraiths are always good. Once you get the mandatory 2 units of minimum camping Immortals, you can either fit 15 Wraiths with Whip Coils, or 12 with Coils and the Spyder/Scarabs necessary for the Canoptek Harvest. Fast Assault units running up and a teleporting Deathstar could be pretty terrifying for lots of armies. I guess the question would be is it better to have more Wraiths, or less but some of them are stronger? Probably the latter, as you're also gaining more units for objective scoring and Scarabs/Spyders aren't too bad anyway:

Necron CAD

Destroyer Lord (Veil of Darkness, Warscythe)

Immortals x5 (Tesla)
Immortals x5 (Tesla)

Wraiths x6 (Whip Coils)

Sentry Pylon x3 (Focused Death Ray)

Necron Royal Court Formation
Anrakyr the Traveler (W)
Cryptek (Chronometron, Solar Staff)
Varguard Obyron

Necron Canoptek Harvest Formation
Spyder (TL Particle Beamer)
Wraiths x6 (Whip Coils)
Scarabs x4

1846/1850

Possibly could split up the Wraiths into 3 units somehow for more spread, but that's nitpicks for later. Alternatively, you could just say "MORE GUN" and go full Destroyer:

Necron CAD

Lord

Immortals x5 (Tesla)
Immortals x5 (Tesla)

Sentry Pylon x3 (Focused Death Ray)

Necron Royal Court Formation
Anrakyr the Traveler (W)
Cryptek (Chronometron, Solar Staff)
Varguard Obyron

Necron Destroyer Cult Formation
Destroyer Lord (Veil of Darkness, Warscythe
Heavy Destroyers x3
Destroyers x2, Heavy
Destroyers x2, Heavy
Destroyers x2, Heavy

1780/1850

So, basically no Assault defense aside from the Warscythes in the 'Star, but a purely insane amount of shooting. 60 points left over to kit out the stock Lord, or to add more Troops, etc. But, if there's something this list wants dead, the Sentrystar and the Cult are going to make sure it ends up that way in a very short amount of time.

There's probably slightly more balanced ways to make a list out of this, but I think one of these two would do pretty well overall. Sentry Pylons are interesting - expensive, but tough and very, very killy. Even if you don't make a Deathstar out of them, I think maybe they're one of the few Necron FW units worth considering.

Thoughts?

Drasius

2015-10-15, 07:50 PM

I think I'm going to try out a shooting Deathstar with Necrons. We don't really have any units that fit the bill (at least none that are as shoot-happy as Cents or the like), but Forge World provides an option in Sentry Pylons. An expensive, but powerful option.

Necron CAD

Lord

Immortals x5 (Tesla)
Immortals x5 (Tesla)

Sentry Pylon x3 (Focused Death Ray)

Necron Royal Court Formation
Anrakyr the Traveler (W)
Cryptek (Chronometron, Solar Staff)
Varguard Obyron

Necron Destroyer Cult Formation
Destroyer Lord (Veil of Darkness, Warscythe
Heavy Destroyers x3
Destroyers x2, Heavy
Destroyers x2, Heavy
Destroyers x2, Heavy

1780/1850

Thoughts?

That list isn't a million miles away from what my local blackshirt ran in a recent team event as champion and he (and their team) cleaned house. Those pylons are so good as to be cheating. Destroyers are also face breakingly good. If you can, try and keep your pylonstar to T7 majority Toughness, which shouldn't be too bad since the DLord is T6 IIRC and Anrakyr is expendable once you've made your second jump, even if he is your warlord. Speaking of, can you not just choose Zndrek and elect to have relentless for when it matters and then something else good for when it's useless? You've got the points, but I don't know if you can exchange one for the other slotwise?

Voidhawk

2015-10-16, 01:57 AM

If you can, try and keep your pylonstar to T7 majority Toughness, which shouldn't be too bad since the DLord is T6 IIRC and Anrakyr is expendable once you've made your second jump, even if he is your warlord. Speaking of, can you not just choose Zandrek and elect to have relentless for when it matters and then something else good for when it's useless? You've got the points, but I don't know if you can exchange one for the other slotwise?

Pylons are a unit of (Canoptek) Artillery, so are always T7 against shooting attacks while one gun remains alive. A nice bonus for using a unit type in a manner it was never intended to be used.

Since the Destroyer Lord has the Nightmare Shroud anyway for a 2+, I'd be tempted to give the Solar Staff to the generic Lord, and swap the Cryptek for Orikan. Having him gives you two T7 2+ rerollable 4+RP characters with Obyron, and adding a Phase Shifter to the D-lord would make it even more absurd. He's also another Ap 2 4++ wielding character, who sometimes becomes T7. Depends how attached you are to the 5++ on the Pylons themselves of course. Not quite Lychstar survival rates, but T7 and multiwound LoSir! goes a long way (just ask the Conclave of the Burning One), and it has a much larger damage output than either of the other Necron deathstars.

Zahndrek is always good, but brings no offensive firepower. In this case the extra Str 10 shot is pretty useful, and he brings another warscythe. Plus, you get loads of style points for making an unusable character useful!

Drasius

2015-10-16, 04:50 AM

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Cerastus-Knight-Atrapos.pdf

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/Atrapos_zps5v1wefqw.png~original

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99560108146_MechanicumCerastusKnightAtrapos01.jpg

A str D beam, granted, only an 8" str D beam, but still, that's pretty rough. *cue 8" D jokes*

Also a 36" str 8 AP2 armourbane large blast. Makes the Errant look like a piece of crap, that's for sure, but then it is an extra 65 points.

Also, 7 hull points instead of 6 and a flare shield built into the ion shield in addition to the normal +1 attack that all cerastus chassis get.

"I'm invisible, lol, you can't hit me!"
"Nah mate, I target the ground with my beam, you just happen to be in the way, GTFO."

LeSwordfish

2015-10-16, 05:50 AM

Haha - RAW, the shield affects all facings- it gives rules for how to position the shield, but doesn't actually say that the save/damage reduction only works on the shielded facing.

Blackhawk748

2015-10-16, 05:58 AM

DaedalusMkV

2015-10-16, 08:10 AM

Requizen

2015-10-16, 09:42 AM

A str D beam, granted, only an 8" str D beam, but still, that's pretty rough. *cue 8" D jokes*

Also a 36" str 8 AP2 armourbane large blast. Makes the Errant look like a piece of crap, that's for sure, but then it is an extra 65 points.

Also, 7 hull points instead of 6 and a flare shield built into the ion shield in addition to the normal +1 attack that all cerastus chassis get.

"I'm invisible, lol, you can't hit me!"
"Nah mate, I target the ground with my beam, you just happen to be in the way, GTFO."

As Daedalus said, not an actual Beam like the power. That said, it's probably still the strongest Knight yet imo. An extra Hull Point, large blast S8 AP2 with the ability to leave a vortex, a Strength D gun (even if it's short range, you're going to be running up the field anyway so why not D that Wraithknight or Deathstar before you charge it?), and the better chassis. Damn.

Can all of the Cerastus Knights be just straight LoW choices for Armies of the Imperium? I thought most of them had to fight with the "can't have more than regular Knights" rule from the IK Codex.

That list isn't a million miles away from what my local blackshirt ran in a recent team event as champion and he (and their team) cleaned house. Those pylons are so good as to be cheating. Destroyers are also face breakingly good. If you can, try and keep your pylonstar to T7 majority Toughness, which shouldn't be too bad since the DLord is T6 IIRC and Anrakyr is expendable once you've made your second jump, even if he is your warlord. Speaking of, can you not just choose Zndrek and elect to have relentless for when it matters and then something else good for when it's useless? You've got the points, but I don't know if you can exchange one for the other slotwise?
The issue Zahndrekh is that he can only use the Relentless thing once (so if you switch away, you can never move again), and you can't have it on Turn 1. So, to that end, it takes away his Alpha Strike. Also, you lose the Tachyon Arrow on Anrakyr. Picking Zahndrekh gives you a slightly tougher warlord and a bit more flexibility, but takes away from the overall power of the Sentrystar itself.

Pylons are a unit of (Canoptek) Artillery, so are always T7 against shooting attacks while one gun remains alive. A nice bonus for using a unit type in a manner it was never intended to be used.

Since the Destroyer Lord has the Nightmare Shroud anyway for a 2+, I'd be tempted to give the Solar Staff to the generic Lord, and swap the Cryptek for Orikan. Having him gives you two T7 2+ rerollable 4+RP characters with Obyron, and adding a Phase Shifter to the D-lord would make it even more absurd. He's also another Ap 2 4++ wielding character, who sometimes becomes T7. Depends how attached you are to the 5++ on the Pylons themselves of course. Not quite Lychstar survival rates, but T7 and multiwound LoSir! goes a long way (just ask the Conclave of the Burning One), and it has a much larger damage output than either of the other Necron deathstars.

Zahndrek is always good, but brings no offensive firepower. In this case the extra Str 10 shot is pretty useful, and he brings another warscythe. Plus, you get loads of style points for making an unusable character useful!

The DLord doesn't have the Shroud, he has the Veil of Darkness. I'd love to also give him a 2+, but alas, it's not possible without giving up the teleport, and then you're kinda not following the point of the 'Star anymore. Though, swapping the Cryptek for Orikan isn't a terrible idea anyway, since rerolling 1s on 3+ is pretty good as-is. I guess you could drop the Veil for the Shroud as long as you keep Obyron for at least one teleport:

Necron CAD

Destroyer Lord (Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter, Warscythe)
Lord (Solar Staff)
Sentry Pylon x3 (Focused Death Ray)

Necron Royal Court Formation
Anrakyr the Traveler
Orikan
Varguard Obyron

1135/1850

Eeeh, now we're talking even more expensive and that's saying a lot. Plus, I'm really wary of losing the second teleport. It's pretty important if you mishap, or get locked in combat, or just end up scattering into a crap position. In fact, if I wasn't taking a second teleport, I'd probably just cut down to Akrakyr/DLord with Veil/Cryptek as above. Obyron really only brings the teleport - his 2+ for tanking is nice but not entirely necessary, and the Warscythe hopefully won't be needed if the positioning is good.

Losing a second teleport is bad, but I guess it really depends. They're not too bad just walking, even without 1 teleport. It's like the Eldar D Artillery, except I can move and shoot and they can't (and have a slightly longer effective range). The teleport is nice for jumping back to get hiding guys like, for instance, a Crusader Knight, a bunch of Jetbikes, or just a gun emplacement before it gets to fire off. But, if they're going to run towards me anyway (like a Bikestar, or a Wraithknight, etc), then why risk the teleport.

I honestly do think the Destroyer Cult version is better overall. Might fiddle with it a bit, cut Obyron as I said to save points. If I can manage to wedge a unit of Wraiths in that list and still have all the firepower, I think it might end up being insanely scary for people to deal with. Maybe:

Necron CAD

Anrakyr
Cryptek (Solar Staff, Chronometron)

Immortals x5 (Tesla)
Immortals x5 (Tesla)

Wraiths x6

Sentry Pylon x3 (Focused Death Ray)

Necron Destroyer Cult Formation
Destroyer Lord (Veil of Darkness, Warscythe)
Heavy Destroyers x3
Destroyers x2, Heavy
Destroyers x2, Heavy
Destroyers x2, Heavy

1850/1850

Perfect points fit. Low model count is a bit scary, but anything that the Cult and Sentrystar can't shoot the Wraiths can tie up, hopefully.

Edit: if I wanted to be really cute, I could try to bring Zahndrekh and then use him to have a 12" perfect-teleport for the Sentrystar. So, you couldn't get to backline, but you could dump it right in the middle of the field and make a big bubble of hurt.

Requizen

2015-10-16, 11:37 AM

In other news, Tau get Flyrants (sorta)

http://i.imgur.com/rxNtPXw.jpg

FMC with an Infantry statline and no Assault things. Actually seems... alright? Like, zipping around and shooting things is great. Not having a retinue kinda sucks. If you get grounded, you're boned, and unlike most FMCs, you don't have the Toughness to shrug off massed ground fire - this could get knocked out of the sky by Bolters and killed. But, then again, you're still forcing snap shots. Probably wouldn't use one of these as your Warlord, but a good harassment and distraction unit in the HQ slot is pretty solid.

Grim Portent

2015-10-16, 12:11 PM

That sets an interesting precedent if nothing else.

Will probably be used as a way to deliver accurate melta weapons into the enemy backfield quickly, or harry infantry with plasma guns.

Voidhawk

2015-10-16, 12:47 PM

That sets an interesting precedent if nothing else.

Will probably be used as a way to deliver accurate melta weapons into the enemy backfield quickly, or harry infantry with plasma guns.

Alas, it can't do either. It comes with a High Output Burst Cannon and a Missile pod, and can't buy any different weapons.

peacenlove

2015-10-16, 01:02 PM

In other news, Tau get Flyrants (sorta)

FMC with an Infantry statline and no Assault things. Actually seems... alright? Like, zipping around and shooting things is great. Not having a retinue kinda sucks. If you get grounded, you're boned, and unlike most FMCs, you don't have the Toughness to shrug off massed ground fire - this could get knocked out of the sky by Bolters and killed. But, then again, you're still forcing snap shots. Probably wouldn't use one of these as your Warlord, but a good harassment and distraction unit in the HQ slot is pretty solid.

A Discount one for sure. Sitting at 145 points currently. No IC, so drones Look Out at 4+. Pretty vurnerable to melta/las and thus to alpha strikes.
No twin linked so he suffers when jinking, although he can buy the 4++ and not care. And he aint no psycker, the other key function of a flyrant.

Pretty decent however as an ally, even if CtA.

EDIT: I also like the direction the Tau are going.
More mobile (Flying HQ), more in control of terrain cover (Ghostkeel) and the Gargantuan to draw fire to itself. They were missing those elements, even if they are merely ... balanced.

Requizen

2015-10-16, 01:41 PM

A Discount one for sure. Sitting at 145 points currently. No IC, so drones Look Out at 4+. Pretty vurnerable to melta/las and thus to alpha strikes.
No twin linked so he suffers when jinking, although he can buy the 4++ and not care. And he aint no psycker, the other key function of a flyrant.

Pretty decent however as an ally, even if CtA.

EDIT: I also like the direction the Tau are going.
More mobile (Flying HQ), more in control of terrain cover (Ghostkeel) and the Gargantuan to draw fire to itself. They were missing those elements, even if they are merely ... balanced.

Yeah I could definitely see myself allying this guy to my Necrons, depending on the Burst Cannon and Missile Pod statlines. A fast shooting harasser is something that Necrons lack and could make great use out of.

Grim Portent

2015-10-16, 02:06 PM

Alas, it can't do either. It comes with a High Output Burst Cannon and a Missile pod, and can't buy any different weapons.

...That's hilariously stupid.

So it's basically going to be able to punch through low AV vehicles and lightly armoured infantry, and can get plinked to death by bolt pistols. :smallbiggrin:

Drasius

2015-10-16, 02:34 PM

A single squad of guided scatbikes has about a 25% chance of dropping him in 1 round, despite them not having skyfire and him not having to jink. That's not counting grounding checks, just flat out forcing enough saves.

A single squad of 3 scatbikes (with guide) are statistically likely to put a wound on him, forcing a grounding check which instantly kills him (Str 9 vs T4).

No LoS when flying either, the drones aren't deployed and thus aren't a vald target.

If you do take him (and at the moment, unless the burst cannon is awesome, I can't see why you would), the shield generator seems virtually mandatory.

If I wanted a paper thin skyfire missile pod for 145 points, I'd take the sunshark, who gets a twin linked missile pod, a networked markerlight and a pair of ion drones for about the same points. The drones should cancel out the burst cannon and twin linked BS4 is about the same as BS5, so you are giving up an HQ slot (important) for a fast attack (worthless) and the plane gets you a networked markerlight and a pulse bomb (Dependant on RAI wording this time around if it actually starts with one).

Also - Grounding checks. You take a grounding check from any unsaved wounds, so if the commander become an FMC and takes stims, then fails an armour save against a bolter shot but passes his FNP check, does he take a grounding test?

He took an unsaved wound (FNP is not a save), but is also unwounded by the attack.

I suspect that by RAW, yes, RAI, no. Thoughts from the playgroud?

Requizen

2015-10-16, 02:37 PM

Artanis

2015-10-16, 03:00 PM

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Cerastus-Knight-Atrapos.pdf

*snip big pic*

A str D beam, granted, only an 8" str D beam, but still, that's pretty rough. *cue 8" D jokes*

Also a 36" str 8 AP2 armourbane large blast. Makes the Errant look like a piece of crap, that's for sure, but then it is an extra 65 points.

Also, 7 hull points instead of 6 and a flare shield built into the ion shield in addition to the normal +1 attack that all cerastus chassis get.

"I'm invisible, lol, you can't hit me!"
"Nah mate, I target the ground with my beam, you just happen to be in the way, GTFO."
Ultra-high-damage melee-range weapon named a "Lascutter"...

IT HAS A GIANT LIGHTSABER! :smallbiggrin:

Turalisj

2015-10-16, 03:23 PM

Alas, it can't do either. It comes with a High Output Burst Cannon and a Missile pod, and can't buy any different weapons.

"May take up to four items from the ranged weapons or special equipment list."

Requizen

2015-10-16, 03:38 PM

"May take up to four items from the ranged weapons or special equipment list."

There's already fighting over this. It says that taking a Coldstar is instead of the other options, which would exclude Ranged Weapons or Signature Systems. Which is how it's clearly meant to be ruled, imo.

Drasius

2015-10-16, 03:38 PM

"May take up to four items from the ranged weapons or special equipment list."

He loses that when he upgrades to the XV86 suit.

Voidhawk

2015-10-16, 03:39 PM

"May take up to four items from the ranged weapons or special equipment list."
Three lines down:
"A Commander may instead replace its Crisis battlesuit with an XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit, with inbuilt Heavy Burst Cannon and Missile Pod."
"A Commander in an XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit may take up to two items from the Support Systems list, and two drones from the Drones list."

If you take the Coldstar, you lose the ability to change weapons. Same as the way Space Marine Captains who take Terminator Armour lose certain weapon options.
If it didn't lose the previous options, there'd be no reason to repeat the Support Systems and Drones lines.

peacenlove

2015-10-16, 05:20 PM

He took an unsaved wound (FNP is not a save), but is also unwounded by the attack.

I suspect that by RAW, yes, RAI, no. Thoughts from the playgroud?

FnP treats the wound as saved. Same with Reanimation protocols. It is clear in the BRB / Necron codex respectively.

Turalisj

2015-10-16, 07:06 PM

There's already fighting over this. It says that taking a Coldstar is instead of the other options, which would exclude Ranged Weapons or Signature Systems. Which is how it's clearly meant to be ruled, imo.

Ouch. If that's the case... Kinda puts a damper on taking the suit.

Working on painting 30 skitarii vanguard and 10 rangers. For metallic color, painting them bronze. But undecided on what to do with the coat. I could do red with a white liner, or I could do blue with a red liner.

Blackhawk748

2015-10-16, 07:09 PM

Ouch. If that's the case... Kinda puts a damper on taking the suit.

Working on painting 30 skitarii vanguard and 10 rangers. For metallic color, painting them bronze. But undecided on what to do with the coat. I could do red with a white liner, or I could do blue with a red liner.

Im going Xenarite, which is Black coats, looks really sweet. My recommendation is Blue with Red, as that may look sweet.

Turalisj

2015-10-16, 07:14 PM

I prime them in white, then put a base of warplock bronze over. I've found that warplock bronze + blood for the blood god looks fairly awesome.

Cheesegear

2015-10-17, 07:04 AM

Tomorrow is the end of my (self-imposed) three-month time frame to get my army painted. I think I've got a few weeks to go, but I smashed it, mostly thanks to Shia LeBouf. Pics will be up sometime tomorrow. The horrible thing is that there is a tournament in two weeks, that isn't 1850, but instead, 1500, which means there's a whole bunch of stuff that I've painted for nothing (well, painting stuff is never for nothing), but, it does mean that my army list has to be different.

White Scars, Gladius Strike Force
- Battle Company
(W) Kor'sarro Khan - 125 Points
Chaplain; Auspex, Melta Bombs - 100 Points

Tactical Squad (x5)
Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma
Razorback; Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Guns
115 Points

Tactical Squad (x5)
Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma
Razorback; Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Guns
115 Points

Tactical Squad (x5)
Plasma Gun
Razorback; Twin-Linked Assault Cannons, Dozer Blade
110 Points

Tactical Squad (x5)
Meltagun, Combi-Melta
Drop Pod
90 Points

Tactical Squad (x5)
Flamer, Combi-Flamer
Drop Pod
85 Points

Tactical Squad (x5)
Flamer
Razorback; Twin-Linked Heavy Flamers, Dozer Blade
80 Points

Attack Bike; Multi-Melta - 50 Points
Attack Bike; Multi-Melta - 50 Points

Devastator Squad (x5) + Razorback; Twin-Linked Assault Cannons, Dozer Blade - 95 Points
Devastator Squad (x5); x2 Multi-Meltas + Rhino - 90 Points

- Anti-Air Defense Force
Hunter - 70 Points
Stalkers (x3) - 225 Points

Inquisitorial Detachment
Inquisitor Coteaz - 100 Points

Total: 1500 Points

So, in two weeks, I have to build and paint Kor'sarro on foot, and buy a third Stalker. I also have to paint a bunch of stuff that I haven't even started because I didn't think I'd have to use them. :smallannoyed:

Drasius

2015-10-17, 06:12 PM

So, we had our yearly north vs south tourney yesterday, though unfortunately the turnout from the lads down south was a bit poor due to a combination if sickness, lack of funds, a family emergency and no time off, so it was only a 16 person tourney, but that's still a reasonable number.

The purpose of this was intended to be a take your roughest list to smash the opposing team, but that fell apart a bit when only a handful of people could make it up from the southies team. As most of us had already commited to our lists, it was too late to change, so that's roughly how it stayed.

Tau Firebase Cadre
190 - Riptide, IA, EWO, TL-FB
228 - 3x Broadsides, 2x HYMP, SMS, EWO, 1x Shas'vre, HRR, SMS, Seeker Missile, ATS [Warlord]
210 - 3x Broadsides, HYMP, SMS, EWO

Skyhammer - Ultramarine Chapter Tactics
235 - 10x ASM, Jump Packs, 2x Flamers, 2x Evicerators, Melta Bombs
210 - 10x ASM, Jump Packs, 2x Flamers, 1x Evicerators, Melta Bombs
315 - 10x Devs, 4x Grav Cannons w/ Grav Amp, Drop Pod
145 - 5x Devs, 4x Multi Meltas, Drop Pod

Space Marine CAD - Ultramarine Chapter Tactics
50 - Telion
60 - 5x Scouts, 5x Sniper Rifles
35 - Drop Pod

Officio Assassinorum Dataslate
140 - Culexus

Inquisitorial Detatchment
34 - Ordo Xeno Inquisitor, 3x Servo Skulls

1850

Same list as our pre-tournament tournament tryout. Extreme Alpha strike army, designed around killing psychic deathstars and dropping a couple of tough MC's or a single wraithknight. Capable of dropping 1-2 Imperial knights on the drop as well.

After having a couple of games with this list, I feel a bit more confident in how to play it, but today is the real test.

vs

Khorne Daemonkin CAD
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage
8x Bloodletters, Icon, Standard
8x Bloodletters, Icon, Standard
6x Terminators, Combi meltas, Power Fists

Khorne Daemonkin CAD
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage
8x Bloodletters, Icon, Standard
8x Bloodletters, Icon, Standard

OK then, that certainly is a thing. I think he would have been better off trading out a thirster and the termies for belakor and some hounds, but 4 D-Thirsters is still pretty freakin' scary.

Dawn of War
Crusade

We roll 1 additional object for a total of 3, I place 1 on some rubble in 1 DZ, he place his in a building on the same side, I pop the last one on the other DZ in the open.

My Warlord rolls Re-roll 1's for all tau within 12" no LOS. Meh, not super helpful.
His is +1 VP if you win a challenge.

I win table sides and choose the side with 2 objectives in cover.

I pop 2 servo skulls 18.1" from his DZ since I know he's coming for me though the one on the right is a bit further up since it's near his objective and by landing further up, I can draw everyone into LOS of the broadsides and also keep them further away.

He wins the roll to deploy and chooses to deploy 1st. He deploys all 4 BT's on the table and 1 unit of 'letters in the open on his objective. Everything else into reserve.
I pop the broadsides on both objectives and the riptide over on the building to the left to try and string out his forces if my skyhammer can't deal enough wounds. Telion and friends infiltrate next to the riptide since there's nothing else for them to hide in.

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/DSC_0538_zpsv8rda98y.jpg~original
There's a thirster hiding behind the buiding on the right and another one hiding behind the fortress of redemption (both of them are the old models).

He opts to give me 1st turn, probably for the best, but then, I'm not sure why he deployed his warlord?

Unfortunately, he also rolls for night fight and gets it. 3+ jinks. Damn. Guess I won't be combat squadding those grav cannons to take out 2 different Thirsters.

Tau/Imperium

1 Squad of ASM comes in on the right and scatters 3" towards the bloodletters, though they're going to aim to take out the bloodthirster hiding behind the building. The other ASM squad comes down between the 2 building on the left, aiming to take out the other hiding bloodthirster behind the fortress, but scatters 4" directly away. The culexus comes down in position to support the right ASM squad while the gravs come down on top of the culexus, scattering 6" into the fortress, but inertial guidance does it's thing and they land exactly where they intended with a clear LoS to the warlord (black primer). The melta squad comes down to support the left ASM, but who cares about them, there's no tanks to blow up and they've got 4 shots that don't ignore cover.

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/DSC_0539_zpsljtettvb.jpg~original

The culexus pings a wound off the hiding bloodthirster with psychic shooting, the grav squad blams the thirster despite 3+jink for 1st blood and warlord. My warlord shows how handy ATS and no LOS is by sniping out the banner from the 'letter squad while his buddies rain missiles on them. The melta squad puts a wound on the hiding thirster on the left to help out the ASM and the other broadsides do nothing because I don't know how to roll 4's to hit. The scouts and the riptide are both foiled by jinking thirsters and poor to hit rolls.

The ASM's both make their charge after trying to pin a wound on with flamers and bolt pistols and failing and while 1 squad weathers the storm with only 3 losses, the other take 5 casualties and breaks, but they can't actually get away from the 'thirster, so are mercilessly run down and killed to a man nothing happens because marines. They do manage to stick a couple of wounds on each of them, because melta bombs and evicerators are a thing and while I can't roll 4's to hit for broadsides, the ASM know what's what and roll a couple of 5's and 6's like champs. Unfortunately, I forget he's running daemonkin and accept a challenge with my sarge on the right squad, and while I do push a wound through with a melta bomb, he also gives up a blood tithe point when he dies. Nuts to that, sorry other sarge, you're not going to get to accomplish any heroics today.

KDK

The left thirster who's not locked in combat goes after the melta squad as seen in the action shot below;
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/DSC_0540_zpsdou53mki.jpg~original
The remaining 'letters move towards the ASM currently getting punked by the thirster.

The left thirster charges the melta marines and cops 3 multi meltas to the face in overwatch, only saving 1 despite a 3+ jink, then they put 2 more wounds through with krak grenades somehow before they get ruined, but I consider that a pretty damn good trade.

The 'letters roll double 1's and fail a 3" charge like chumps, but they don't care, 'cause the 'thirster has got this. Except he doesn't, and whiffs all but 3 attacks and fails to wound with 1 of those and takes another wound from an evicerator. I lose combat and break again, but marines, so we stay locked. The other squad does better managing 2 wounds from their evicerators in exchange for 3 guys, again, a fairly decent trade.

Tau/Imperium

The inquisitor comes on to find out what all the ruckus is about and hides behind a building when he sees all the scary deamons.

The culexus weirds out a pair of bloodletters and sends them back to the warp while moving up for a charge on the left thirster.

The riptide shows the melta'ed 'Thirster what a real monsterous creature is meant to be like and pew-pews him to death. The broadsides remove the remaining 'letters 'cause SMS doesn't care about your fancy LoS or cover shenanigans.

The Culexus manages to fail a 5" charge with a 3 and the bloodletters snicker at him through the warp. Both ASM squads are wiped out, the left squad goes down swinging, putting another wound through, leaving him on 1. Both consolidate towards the grav squad

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/40K/DSC_0541_zpsiv52ztsz.jpg~original
The old models were replaced with the new models as they were killed off, since the old models were on fantasy bases still.

KDK

All his reserves come in, but the 1st bloodletter squad tries to DS a bit too close to my broadsides in the ruin, mishaps and rolls a 1. The terminators come down and scatter into the bottom floor of the ruin and pass all their dangerous terrain checks while the other 2 'letter squads also come down near the ruin and land roughly where they meant to. TO comes past and calls out 20 minutes and we realise that it's pretty much game over since we won't get though another turn each. :(

He finally has a shooting phase and the termies fire their combi meltas at the broadsides, but some atrocious to hit and to wound rolls means I only need to make 2 saves, which I do and my opponent just shrugs as there is nothing he can do.

The thirster with 2 wounds charges the grav squad who forgot to pop tactical doctrine and dies to overwatch, but it also allows to the one with 1 wound to charge in unmolested. However, we run out of time before he gets to roll dice. Dunno what those ASM boys had so much trouble with? That's 2 thirsters accounted for by that one grav squad and maybe even a third with krak grenades if they get lucky.

That's it GG.

Out of Time

Out of Time

Out of Time

Out of Time

Out of Time

I control 2 objectives and have first blood, warlord and linebreaker for a total of 9 points.
He has linebreaker for a total of 1 point.
Major Victory for the Tau/Imperium Alliance this day!

The culexus wasn't exactly optimal this game, the snipers didn't achieve much but they were only ever a tax for a pod for the culexus. Bit disapointed with the Tau here, they didn't achieve much, though the warlord taking out the banner in the first 'letter unit was quite handy. The riptide was OK, but not as effective as I'd hoped. Assault squads weren't terrible, given what I asked them to go up against. Melta squad was hurting with no vehicles to pop, but grav got they job done, as always.

Still, a solid win against an army it wasn't designed to fight, but it's also a heavy ranged army against a melee army that only got 2 turns. There's really only 1 way that fight was ever going to go. A hollow victory given that we ran out of time, but then starting 30 minutes late will do that.

Grim Portent

2015-10-17, 06:56 PM

:smallsigh:

I've been working on a Samus counts-as conversion since I, like many people, am not a huge fan of the official model, and I've got it more or less finished now and only just realised the official one uses a larger base than I've got mine on. I didn't notice earlier because of the angle FW took photos of the model at in most pictures.

Was going to bring it as part of an army for a team apocalypse game tomorrow, but now I'm not so sure. Guess I'll write two lists and ask the others if he's an acceptable stand in, if he isn't I'll just use him as a backup prince for summoning in.

Don't even think Samus is useful in normal games, just Apocalypse since he affects so many units at once with his Whispers special rule, so if I can't use mine I'll be more than a tad disappointed.

Cheesegear

2015-10-17, 07:08 PM

I've been working on a Samus counts-as conversion since I, like many people, am not a huge fan of the official model

Friend of mine uses the Warriors of Chaos Slaughterbrute. But, beware buying that, because you might trick GW into thinking that people are buying Age of Sigmar models. :smallamused:

JNAProductions

2015-10-17, 07:10 PM

What Codex is Samus in? And what are the special rules available to that model?

Cheesegear

2015-10-17, 07:15 PM

What Codex is Samus in? And what are the special rules available to that model?

He's not in a Codex (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Samus_Daemon_Prince_of_the_Ruinstorm.pdf).

JNAProductions

2015-10-17, 07:16 PM

Thanks, Cheesegear! You're awesome.

Grim Portent

2015-10-17, 07:48 PM

Friend of mine uses the Warriors of Chaos Slaughterbrute. But, beware buying that, because you might trick GW into thinking that people are buying Age of Sigmar models. :smallamused:

Was originally going to do that, but I didn't want to settle on the generic Slaughterbrute pose and couldn't be bothered to green stuff the model into a more bipedal stance, so my Slaughterbrute's going to become a Soul Grinder, or possibly be incorporated into an Ann'Grath conversion if I can ever be bothered to do some green stuff work. :smalltongue:

My Samus was based mostly off the first HH novel's introduction of him rather than his model or later fluff depiction. It's a swarm of warp spirits (a small nod to the Whispers of Madness rule) rising from the corpse of a dead skull champion (a nod to the Born of Murder rule). My original imagining of Samus from the book was a daemon of shadows and whispers rather than a brutish monster, so I went with a design that suited that more. I'll post a picture sometime.

LordDavenport

2015-10-18, 01:01 AM

seems prone to getting deleted by D weapons... or just mass fire as it lacks a save. Am I wrong?
Though the reserve manipulation seems sweet.

Cheesegear

2015-10-18, 02:25 AM

seems prone to getting deleted by D weapons... or just mass fire as it lacks a save. Am I wrong?

He doesn't start the game on the board. If your opponents go first, what ever first turn brutalisation your opponent has, isn't going to hit him. If you are playing Apocalypse, you can choose when he comes down (just wait for a Character to die in the right spot), noting that Whispers of Madness works even while Samus isn't even on the board. He can't be killed if he isn't on the board.

At the end of the day though, he kind of sucks unless you're playing 30K, and then you get his amazing Warlord Trait.

Grim Portent

2015-10-18, 04:16 AM

He doesn't start the game on the board. If your opponents go first, what ever first turn brutalisation your opponent has, isn't going to hit him. If you are playing Apocalypse, you can choose when he comes down (just wait for a Character to die in the right spot), noting that Whispers of Madness works even while Samus isn't even on the board. He can't be killed if he isn't on the board.

At the end of the day though, he kind of sucks unless you're playing 30K, and then you get his amazing Warlord Trait.

Indeed, the only reason I want to use him in Apocalypse is to affect 4 or more enemie players with WoM. The mass debuff effect to their psykers and reserves will make up for his personal failings as a unit, and there will be enough bigger stuff in Apocalypse that he should avoid D for a while.

Voidhawk

2015-10-18, 06:34 AM

Many images are appearing from the forgeworld open-ish day. Here's a few I think people might appreciate.

http://i.imgur.com/5Qs0c1g.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rLVFfsQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/oHEHt3A.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4WOwT4h.jpg
Note the last part of that list: Mechanicum Ordinatus. The Titan-sized single guns built for individual tasks.
http://i.imgur.com/W6r8H9O.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/b2l4gbK.jpg
Middle of this battlefield, between the two Titans:
http://i.imgur.com/sHiXttd.jpg
The rest of the panorama:
http://i.imgur.com/7WcCAef.jpg

Cheesegear

2015-10-18, 07:44 AM

So I took my photos late at night, so I had to use the flash on my camera. Pics aren't the best. But, here's my progress for the last three weeks...

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/Cheesegear%20Painting%20Journey%20-%20Imperial%20Fists/Week%2012%201_zpskc7l9aw0.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/Cheesegear%20Painting%20Journey%20-%20Imperial%20Fists/Week%2012%202_zpslpr4tquv.jpg

So, the self-imposed challenge, was to paint an 1850 from scratch, in three months (12 weeks). I painted 5-6 days a week (sometimes less, especially recently) for roughly 2 hours per day, and never more than 3 hours, except on weekends. The point of the exercise was; Including real life, can it be done? How long does it take to paint an army on a reasonable schedule?
The answer; A while.

Now, since the last three weeks have been...Bad...Surely they don't count, couldn't I ease off and give myself another three weeks to make up for it? No. Not only is that how deadlines work, but, a significant chunk of the exercise was not screwing with my personal life. Which meant I missed a couple of days, due to being an adult, and going out on Fridays and/or Saturdays some weeks. Could I have painted four or five hours a night? Well, my job, girlfriend, dog, and gym routines say "Hell no." Conversely, physically not being able to paint, literally not having the time, etc. is real life, interfering with my painting is the point.

This is how I started...
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/Cheesegear%20Painting%20Journey%20-%20Imperial%20Fists/Week%2001_zpsjyoksi6h.jpg

Technically it's not from scratch 'cause I started with one model painted. :smalltongue:

Now?
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/Cheesegear%20Painting%20Journey%20-%20Imperial%20Fists/10182015_zpsl1kag1mu.jpg

Drasius

2015-10-18, 10:36 AM

A seriously good effort Cheese.

For our army builder challenge, we were painting 500 points a month and I seriously struggled to get it done even with a load of spare time and virtually no distractions, so my hat is definately off to you for getting so close to your lofty goal.

LordDavenport

2015-10-18, 11:32 AM

Given the free transports making that more like a 2350 point list, you seem pretty close to having gotten the 1850 goal.

Also, I wonder how that list looks with the building on a budget system. 8 tanks with infinite $/points would not do it any favors.

Grim Portent

2015-10-18, 05:35 PM

So out of 8 people who'd said they were going to come only 3 of us showed up for the Apocalypse game. :smallannoyed:

We settled on a 3 person free for all with Maelstrom objectives. Orks vs Dark Angels with Imperial Knights vs Khorne Daemonkin. 2500 points each, and I got to try out Samus at least.

The first turn was the Ork player moving forward to contest objectives while trying to stay in a forcefield bubble from his Morkanaut so he wouldn't get annihilated by the DA's shooting. I moved forward to try and square my Chaos Knight off against an Imperial Knight, my Maulerfiends darted off to do their thing, one being crushed by a knight it assaulted, and my Bloodthirsters moved to fight the Orks. The DA's shot everything at the Orks.

Turn two the Ork player shot back at the Dark Angels, killing an assault squad, a Land Speeder and stripping a few HPs off the Imperial Knights. A Nob squad with Warboss assaulted and killed my D-Thirster. The DA's proceeded to kill more Orks and one of the Imp Knights assaulted mine. This lead to a duel that would last most of the game. My entire reserves came in, 40 Bloodletters, a Decimator, a Soul Grinder and Samus all came in around the DAs backline, surrounding their Warlord and Tactical Marines. My maulerfiend and remaining Bloodthirster flail at the Orks a bit, doing nothing of consequence. They both died later to Orks, I'll just gloss over it since it's unimportant.

The Orks continued to try and shoot the Imperial Knight that was in their face. The DAs desperately tried to shoot my reinforcements, killed some bloodletters but otherwise did no damage. I then proceeded to assault just about every Dark Angel unit that wasn't a Knight, despite them being part of the formation that allows full BS overwatch. Samus tore the Company Commander and five of his squad apart in a flurry of blows for Slay the Warlord (S8, ID on a 6 with Hatred (Infantry) is actually pretty neat). The rest were butchered by Hellblades. The Soul Grinder tore a Speeder to shreds and the Decimator lumbered into battle with a tactical squad.

The Ork Warbosses and their bodyguard units assaulted a Knight each, losing several Nobs and Meganobs, but ultimately felling the giant machines with Power Klaws, before retreating to hold objectives. The remaining Dark Angels fired into the Daemons that massed around them, but failed to do anything substantial beyond destroying the Soul Grinder's claw. I then drove my daemons into more of the Dark Angels, hacking and killing.

Then we called it a night because it was getting late and there weren't many models left on the table.

The Orks had a few boys, a Deffkopta, a Warboss + Painboy and a unit of 2 Meganobs with a Warboss, the Angels had a lone biker and a unit of tactical marines locked in combat. I had about 7-10 Bloodletters, Samus, a Decimator and a Soul Grinder and was really far from the Orks. Honestly can't say how many units they started with, but I had lost 2 Bloodthirsters, a Chaos Knight, two Maulerfiends and around 30 Bloodletters

DAs had 1 VP for First Blood.
Orks had 9, from various objectives.
I had 10, from Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker and various objectives.

A narrow victory for Khorne, and a great spilling of the blood of the Lion's children.

I got lucky that I was able to drop so many Daemons in in so precisely around the DAs while their heaviest hitters, the Imperial Knights, were still scrapping with the Orks, and that there weren't any weapons particularly suited to killing Bloodletters lying around. Samus has potential against infantry heavy armies, but I didn't really get to try him out properly. Maybe the next time I fight Tau I'll get a proper chance to sink him into some nice juicy units to get an idea for his ability.

Had barely any Blood Points for this game though. Didn't get a single boon off until the turn after my Daemons deepstruck in, when I gave them +1 attack to help with the slaughtering.

Cheesegear

2015-10-18, 06:48 PM

For our army builder challenge, we were painting 500 points a month

At this point, I think I could do 500 Points in a month. But, previously, the stores that I've been to say that you have to buy and paint 500 points. I'm unwilling to do that. Not for a 'challenge' that I don't really get anything out of.

Given the free transports making that more like a 2350 point list

It's not 'more like' anything. It is 1850. If I don't paint my 'free' models, is it tournament legal and/or will I lose points for not having a painted army? Daemons players have to paint nearly an entire second army - and certainly enough to fill the equivalent of an AD or more. Their army is still only 1850. Can't paint that many Daemons? Tough ****. Looks like you can't Summon then. Consider Tyranid players running only two Tervigons (on a Skyshield). Those players are painting 40-50 extra Termagants. That's only ~200 Points, right? Easy. Nope. It's 0 Points, doesn't get you any closer to your target, and if those 40-50 extra models (because points cost is irrelevant), then you fail, and you can't play that army or you can lose tournament points.

Don't want to paint extra models? Don't play that army. When a tournament packet says "Armies must be painted", either all of it is, or none of it is. Regardless of points costs.

Grim Portent

2015-10-19, 04:51 AM

Here's a photo of my WIP Samus conversion. I still need to transplant him to a larger base, add a lot of details and decorations. Maybe make him taller as well. (Ignore the mess that is my painting desk.)

http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t532/grimportent/image.jpg1_zpsxf275uyr.jpg (http://s1312.photobucket.com/user/grimportent/media/image.jpg1_zpsxf275uyr.jpg.html)

Blackhawk748

2015-10-19, 05:56 AM

LeSwordfish

2015-10-19, 07:21 AM

lord_khaine

2015-10-19, 10:31 AM

Requizen

2015-10-20, 02:55 PM

Welp, looks like I may start playing Raven Guard after all. The fiancee will be none too happy about this new expenditure in my life...

http://www.gamestrust.de/uploads/gallery/1263/pic-29364.jpg

Based on rough translations, the Raven Guard Pinion Demi Company works like this: When you put a unit of Scouts or Scout Bikes in Reserve, you can attach a non-Scout or -Scout Bike unit to them as well. When the Scouts come in, the attached unit arries as well. If the Scouts Outflank, the attached unit can Outflank as well as long as it is within 9" of the Scouts. (Maybe works with Infiltrate as well, translations forthcoming). Each turn, the Scouts can give a unit within 9" Ignores Cover.

The Shadowstrike Kill Team units of Vanguard Vets choose when they come in, and don't scatter within 9" of Scouts from that formation. They can also charge the turn they Deep Strike.

According to the leaks, the new Campaign book "Warzone Damocles: Kauyon" will have a full Gladius/Decurion type detachment for Raven Guard, including these two formations and something like 7 others. And their own Tactical Cards, if you use those.

So yeah. Favorite chapter, new rules, decent rules. Honestly considering flipping some of my Chaos for them as I barely play my Daemons anymore.

Eldan

2015-10-20, 04:10 PM

Requizen

2015-10-20, 04:14 PM

Let's see.

Pinion Battle Demicompany
1 Captain or Chaplain
0-1 Command Squad
3 Tactical Squads
1 Assault Squad
1 Devastator Squad
1-3 units from this list:
Scout Squad, Scout Bike Squad

Captain or Chaplain may not have terminator armour.
Instead, may also include any of a long list of named models.

Scout: Every scout or scout bike squad in this formation which is in reserve may guide another unit of this formation to the battlefield. That unit, too, has to be in reserve and not Deep Strike reserve. When you roll reserve rolls, do not roll for the guided unit, instead, it arrives at the same time as the unit guiding it. If that scout unit has the Outflank (I think?) special rule, the guided unit arrives over the same table edge, even if it can not normally outflank. If the guided unit moves onto the battlefield, they gain stealth until the beginning of their next turn, as long as they stay within 9" of the guiding unit.

Scout-support: In the shooting phase, every scout (veteran) sergeant in this formation can scout for another unit in this formation within 9". This unit gains the "ignores cover" special rule.

So, no, they don't have to arrive within 9", just the same table edge.
Thanks for the translations!

I'm not sure how completely useful outflanking Tacs/Assault Marines/Devs is going to be, but it sure is cool and fluffy!

Do you know what characters are in that list of named models, and if there are any that aren't in the SM codex? It would be interesting if they added some in the Campaign book.

Actually, I just looked at it again. It seems to be the same list as the one for the regular Demi Company. So either the idea is that this is just an alternate to a regular Demi Company that every Chapter can use (which is alright, I guess), or it's a misprint.

Eldan

2015-10-20, 04:21 PM

Requizen

2015-10-20, 04:24 PM

Quite difficult to read and I'm pretty sure I don't even know most Space Marine characters. So, best guess.

Captain Sicarius, Chaplain Cavius (? there might be an M or n in there), Kor'sarro Khan, Vulkan He'Stan, Skudew (? That's definitely wrong, but I can't read it), Captain Skrihe, Jedsa Kundun, High Marshal [something that's totally unreadable, like Hellhavkt], or Chaplain Grimmidus.

So, do any of those exist, except Sicarius and Khan? Because that was really hard.

Yeah, Sicarius is UM, Shrike is the RG character, and the High Marshal is the Black Templars character, I think Grimmaldus is too?

So I guess this isn't a Raven Guard specific formation, unless it's a copy/paste typo.

Eldan

2015-10-20, 04:27 PM

Requizen

2015-10-20, 04:40 PM

Shadowstrike Kill Team

2-4 scout squads
1-3 Vanguard veteran squads

THe VVS must have jump packs.

At the right time: Instead of rolling for reserves for the VVS in this formation, you may choose to automatically fail or succeed on the roll.

In the right place: VVs in this formation may attack in the same turn as they arrive via deep strike. VVS in this formation don't scatter if the first model is placed within 9" of at least two scout units in this formation.

At least two? Hm, interesting, but also lessens the power a bit. Though, that is to be expected, as Vanguard getting DS Assault is at least fairly good, and getting Reserve manipulation on them is also great.

LeSwordfish

2015-10-21, 03:11 AM

Well, I guess i'm getting some vanguard veterans. You don't even need to be raven guard, you can roll around with hit and run.

LeSwordfish

2015-10-21, 09:44 AM

Battle report! My eldar got challenged by the Dark Angels player and his ravenwing, so we decided to have a bike-a-palooza.

Fat Saim's Grand Slam
Farseer Skyrunner, Singing Spear
6x Jetbikes, Warlock
6x Jetbikes, warlock, singing spear, 3x Scatter lasers, 3x shuriken catapults
5x Wraithguard, D-scythes, Wave Serpent (Twin-linked bright lances)
Vyper - Eldar Missile Launcher
Falcon - Bright Lance

Same as before. This army needs an elite choice with more anti-tank but none really fit the theme as I want it. Wraiths are also the only ones that can really challenge super-heavies or gargantuans.

On The Wings Of A Dove Raven
Sammael
5x bikes - 2x plasma gun
6x bikes - attack bike, multi-melta, 2x meltagun
3x bikes - flamer
Nephilim Jetfighter
Plasma Land Speeder Thing

Turns out this isn't a legal list - it fits into the Ravenwing formation, but if you take a flyer that whole formation has to start in reserves - and they don't get the right kind of reserve manipulation, so if you take the formation with a flyer, you auto-lose. I pointed this out to my opponent, who changed it to Unbound.

Deployment
We roll Shrouding, and deploy cover with big blocks of trees to the left and right, and smaller rubble on our own objectives. He wins the roll-off and elects to let me go first. Maibh rolls D3 Units get scout, like a winner, and I nominate her unit and the wraithguard. Psychic powers are disappointing: No Ignores Cover, no Rending, but Scriers Gaze, an invulnerable save, and the full-BS overwatch one I was hoping for. I deploy the unit of un-upgraded bikes on my objective, Maibh and the others far left with the Vyper, and push my deployment on the other side with the Falcon and Serpent. He deploys Sammael with the plasma bikes opposite Maibh, next to the Land Speeder, the flamer bikes on his objective, and the meltabikes opposite my tanks. Apparently he scouts, too - he wins the roll-off and everything redeploys forward, while I race the serpent forward. It's very close to his melta bikes. I told him what was in it, and all... he doesn't sieze. Phew.

Turn One
The wave serpent moves six inches forward, turns a little, and disgorges five wraithknights next to his melta bikes, while Maibh and the bikers scooch forward on their side to get within range of the land speeder. Plasma blasts will hurt if they hit my bikes (they're large models and often have to be squashed together), so that's my first target. The falcon tries to line up a shot on sammael. Maibh rolls five for powers because she's awesome, and I give her unit prescience, shrouded, counter -attack, but not the invulnerable I was hoping for. The Wraithguard shoot, but I roll an awful lot of ones to wound. It's still enough to kill everyone but the attack bike though, but then I roll a one for the d3 wounds on him and it survives, keeping me from First Blood. The wave serpent rolls snake eyes to hit him, the falcon is out of LOS... crap. I need this guy dead before he starts popping tanks... not quite enough to fire the Serpent Shield though. The Falcon does no damage to Sam-I-Am's squad, but forces them to jink - more ones to hit, goddamn it, but that's probably good enough. I continue my set of terrible rolls with Maibh's squad - twenty twin-linked BS4 shots score less than ten hits, but that's at least enough to sneak two hull points onto the speeder - It's forced to snap shot next turn which is, again, probably good enough.

The attack bike whizzes around in front of the Wave Serpent, and Sammael's unit moves up to charge Maibh. They fire enough shots to force me to Jink, but they jinked too and snap shots against a target with 2+ cover means no damage. I do forget that that means i'm no longer firing overwatch on full, though. They charge, but snap shotting overwatch kills two of them and even with Sammael's +3 boost they're just a bit out of range. The attack bike glances the wave serpent - good thing I didn't fire the shield, huh? - and then charges, but fails to glance it via punching.

Turn Two
Ignoring the bikers pummeling away, the wraithguard hop on the wave serpent. It can only move six inches, but it starts heading towards the bikers on the objective. This puts it's rear to the attack bike, but come on, I should be able to kill one bike with the falcon, right? Maibh and her unit back up to take full advantage of their range, and the Vyper follows them like a puppy. Psychic phase goes well again - though somehow he Denies both uses of Conceal - and in the shooting the Falcon... fails to kill the biker again, which means the wave serpent has to use it's lances too, and goddamn it I was hoping to fire the serpent shield at the bikers on the objective. This does, however, finally kill it, earning me First Blood. Maibh's unit can't put any hits on the Speeder, but the Vyper kills it with a krak missile.

Sammael and his squad turn back towards the wave serpent, and the Jetfighter comes on, knocking another hull point off the serpent with it's missiles: Sammael's squad glance it with plasma, but it Jink's past it. They're just out of range to charge, thank god, which means that next turn...

Turn Three
It's time to Wraith the Wroof! The Serpent hops forward a little, and disgorges the wraithguard, while Maibh and her squad push forward again hoping to keep themselves safe for when the jetfighter comes around - a truckload of twinlinked S6 attacks is probably my best hope for taking down a flyer. One dies to dangerous terrain, though, so so much for "safe". The Wraithguard slaughter Sammael and his unit, and the assorted anti-tank weapons of the vehicles fail to land a hit on the jetfighter.

The jetfighter moves up and kills one of the bikers on my objective, and in an impressive demonstration of "death or glory" the last remaining bikers charge my wraithguard. 5d3 str-D attacks make that definitely Death, though, and with no units to contest objectives left my opponent concedes.

I think I choose the wraithguard as the thing to buy to fill in points, especially if I can magnetise them. Swooping Hawks and Fire Dragons are both cool... but I actually kind of like my "No Aspects" theme, and also neither of them has much of an answer to gargantuans. If I want to turn this army into a tournament-grade one, I'll need an answer to Gargantuans, but i'm not enough of a prick to get one of my own yet. I can always pick up another bunch of bikers and another Vyper for casual games.

Requizen

2015-10-21, 10:44 AM

Battle report! My eldar got challenged by the Dark Angels player and his ravenwing, so we decided to have a bike-a-palooza.
Nice batrep!

Turn One
It's still enough to kill everyone but the attack bike though, but then I roll a one for the d3 wounds on him and it survives, keeping me from First Blood.

Just a note, Strength D shots are counted as S10 for purposes of ID, so the bike would have been dead anyway.

I think I choose the wraithguard as the thing to buy to fill in points, especially if I can magnetise them. Swooping Hawks and Fire Dragons are both cool... but I actually kind of like my "No Aspects" theme, and also neither of them has much of an answer to gargantuans. If I want to turn this army into a tournament-grade one, I'll need an answer to Gargantuans, but i'm not enough of a prick to get one of my own yet. I can always pick up another bunch of bikers and another Vyper for casual games.

I think it's possible to make something like this work for a tournament grade list, and I kind of like the idea of a no Aspect Warrior, no Wraithknight army. WKs are silly, sure, but so are Wraithguard. Multiple units in Wave Serpents are good, or you could bring in the WWP bro if you want to pursue that route. And of course, you're still opened up to bikes, which are great.

It's kinda hard to make a bad list with Eldar haha.

LeSwordfish

2015-10-21, 12:23 PM

DataNinja

2015-10-21, 12:50 PM

I'm not trying to build an overly scary list - Falcons and Vypers, for gods sake! - but it seems genuinely hard not to be scary with Eldar. Maybe I should stop Scouting the wraiths?

I have a fairly non-scary list (relatively speaking), because I'm broke and was able to get stuff for cheap from some guy. Basically, I've got just a whole whack of Guardians, with a bit of Psychic support. Then again, maybe it's not scary because I'm just playing it wrong. But people do seem to enjoy playing against an Eldar list that doesn't include Jetbikes, Wraiths, or Tanks, so I'm happy with it.

Requizen

2015-10-21, 12:54 PM

Alas, no- D-scythes have a special rule that gives them a -1 on the D table and treats them as S4 for Instant Death. I ran the numbers and five of them still put more penetrating hits on a single model than D-Cannons though.

I'm not trying to build an overly scary list - Falcons and Vypers, for gods sake! - but it seems genuinely hard not to be scary with Eldar. Maybe I should stop Scouting the wraiths?

There's talk of an upcoming 1500 point tournament where the list to beat is a stompa full of Meks. Alas, there's no way I can justify buying another 500 points for a while.

Ah, didn't know about that.

Well, I mean if you're getting Scout, there's no real reason to handicap yourself unless you're playing against a really new person and don't want to scare them away from the game. Most people are used to just how strong Eldar are in my experience.

Ricky S

2015-10-22, 12:18 AM

It seems unless you are playing a ridiculous eldar list people will complain. Playing a guardian list sounds like a lot of fun though. I might even get my eldar out of the cupboard.

What else is that Ork player running in his 1500 because that stomper will be around 900 points with the mek upgrades which is what I am assuming he is doing. 1500 pts of eldar should be able to handle it pretty easily. There is a lot of lance weaponry available and a lot of high str stuff too. What models do you have available?

LeSwordfish

2015-10-22, 05:33 AM

It seems unless you are playing a ridiculous eldar list people will complain. Playing a guardian list sounds like a lot of fun though. I might even get my eldar out of the cupboard.

What else is that Ork player running in his 1500 because that stomper will be around 900 points with the mek upgrades which is what I am assuming he is doing. 1500 pts of eldar should
be able to handle it pretty easily. There is a lot of lance weaponry available and a lot of high str stuff too. What models do you have available?

Models available are exclusively those in the battle reports, with the exception of the dragons/wraiths which are proxies, and the second warlock who is technically an Autarch.

Tehnar

2015-10-22, 06:28 AM

LeSwordfish

2015-10-22, 10:18 AM

How about:

Farseer - Skyrunner, singing spear, - 115

6x Windriders - 6x scatter lasers, warlock with singing spear - 217
3x Windriders - 3x shuriken catapults - 81
3x Windriders - 3x scatter lasers - 81
3x Windriders - 51
3x Windriders - 51

5x Wraithguard - d-scythes, wave serpent, bright lances - 325
5x Wraithguard - d-scythes, wave serpent, bright lances - 325

2x Vypers - eldar missile launchers -110

Falcon - bright lance - 130

Total of 1486, requires buying the wraiths, a serpent, and the Windriders battle host box. I don't like the falcon much, and the most obvious replacements are swooping Hawks or dark reapers. I've found a big block of Guided scatter lasers can take down flyers occasionally but I wouldn't bet the farm on them and a pair of EMLs.

Dark reapers x4 - exarch, EML, starshot missiles - 149
Swooping Hawks x8 - exarch - 138
X3 Windriders - scatter lasers, warlock - 131 (expand existing squad)

Any work.

Voidhawk

2015-10-23, 12:11 AM

Would a Crimson Hunter fit? They're basically the best dog-fighter there is, and can attack the same ground targets as a Falcon.

Cheesegear

2015-10-23, 12:54 AM

Captain Sicarius, Chaplain Cavius (? there might be an M or n in there), Kor'sarro Khan, Vulkan He'Stan, Skudew (? That's definitely wrong, but I can't read it), Captain Skrihe, Jedsa Kundun, High Marshal [something that's totally unreadable, like Hellhavkt], or Chaplain Grimmidus.

Chaplain Cassius. 'Skudew', is 'Shadow', as in Shadow Captain Shrike. Predro Kantor, High Marshal Helbrecht and Chaplain Grimaldus.

What really bothers me is that there is no provision for Shadow Captain Solaq (?). Surely, if you were going to build around the campaign, you'd actually assign one of your main characters to the Formations?

Well, I guess i'm getting some vanguard veterans. You don't even need to be raven guard, you can roll around with hit and run.

Which is a thing that kind of annoys me. Make a 'Raven Guard' campaign, except not actually make it specific, so all the bonuses get applied to everyone, so instead you start trying to do the same things, better, with other Chapter Tactics, and ignore Raven Guard completely...Again.

I get it though. Not making it unique to Raven Guard means that all Space Marine players can get in the action, which sells more models. Still sucks for Raven Guard players though, because White Scars Vanguard that don't Scatter and Charge on the first turn would be really good. On the other hand, since the Vanguard don't use Transports for their Deep Striking, and they show up on the first turn, they'll benefit from the free Shroud that RG would get against Interceptor and Overwatch shots.

Battle report! My eldar got challenged by the Dark Angels player and his ravenwing

Isn't it great when someone calls you out...Then you smash them. :smallamused:

It seems unless you are playing a ridiculous eldar list people will complain. Playing a guardian list sounds like a lot of fun though. I might even get my eldar out of the cupboard.

A not-stupid Eldar list, eh? Look up Community Comp (http://www.communitycomp.org/) and try and spend no Credits. It's actually not as hard as it looks. :smallamused:

Would a Crimson Hunter fit? They're basically the best dog-fighter there is, and can attack the same ground targets as a Falcon.

QFT. Crimson Hunters are amazing.

Drasius

2015-10-23, 01:52 AM

What really bothers me is that there is no provision for Shadow Captain Solaq (?). Surely, if you were going to build around the campaign, you'd actually assign one of your main characters to the Formations?

I assume captain I-brought-a-plasma-pistol-and-power-sword-and-no-mobility-enhancer-like-a-chump is catered for by the allowance of "Captain", in that he's not really a named character (as, much like Chaos, Raven Guard can't have nice things), just some dude with his own sculpt and a useless wargear loadout.

A not-stupid Eldar list, eh? Look up Community Comp (http://www.communitycomp.org/) and try and spend no Credits. It's actually not as hard as it looks. :smallamused:

Dear god, the madness is spreading!

Cheesegear

2015-10-23, 02:34 AM

I assume captain I-brought-a-plasma-pistol-and-power-sword-and-no-mobility-enhancer-like-a-chump

Better than a Power Fist & Plasma Pistol like on everything else. Seriously GW, stop putting Plasma Pistols on 1-Wound models. It's like you don't even play the game. :smallwink:

Dear god, the madness is spreading!

While I hate Community Comp, it is a nice barometer for making 'casual' lists. In tournament play, obviously your goal as a player who wants to win, is to break it ('Rules are made to be broken'). But for all other times it's pretty good.

Example;

(W) Librarian; Mastery Level 2, Terminator Armour, Storm Shield - 125 Points

Tactical Squad (x5); Plasma Gun + Razorback; Las/Plas - 160 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Plasma Gun + Razorback; Las/Plas - 160 Points
Scouts (x10); [Boltguns], Heavy Bolter, Veteran Sergeant; Power Fist - 153 Points
Scouts (x10); Sniper Rifles - 120 Points

Dreadnought; x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons - 120 Points
Venerable Dreadnought; x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons 145 Points

Land Speeder - 45 Points

Devastator Squad (x5); x3 Missile Launchers - 115 Points
Predators (x2); Lascannon Sponsons - 230 Points
Vindicator; Storm Bolter - 125 Points

Total: 1498 Points

Pay one credit for having 3 Vehicles with AV13. Done. My Librarian rolls on Div, not Telepathy, so Invisibility isn't a thing I need to worry about.
People actually enjoy playing games against me now. Even so, I'd never take this list to a tournament. If a tournament gives me nine credits, I'm using nine Credits.

lord_khaine

2015-10-23, 05:54 AM

A not-stupid Eldar list, eh? Look up Community Comp and try and spend no Credits. It's actually not as hard as it looks.

Gahh.. just about everything in the Eldar army costs credits though, and im especially surprised that the Avatar still does as well.

It is kinda hard to find anything to deal with vehicles besides Guardians with bright lances or swooping hawks, but it does not look like either Spirit Seers or Wraithblades cost any credits.
An army of those lead by Karandras would most likely be one that just more or less refused to die while slowly contesting all objectives on the battlefield.

LeSwordfish

2015-10-23, 06:48 AM

Which is a thing that kind of annoys me. Make a 'Raven Guard' campaign, except not actually make it specific, so all the bonuses get applied to everyone, so instead you start trying to do the same things, better, with other Chapter Tactics, and ignore Raven Guard completely...Again.

Ha, i didnt realise how very precisely I was playing into GW's hands by saying that... In fairness, these formations are designed around making the Fluffy RG units good. That's worth something...

Isn't it great when someone calls you out...Then you smash them. :smallamused:

Fair play to him, it would have been a very different game had his army all arrived from reserve with a +1 like he was expecting, plus his other formation benefits. Dark Angels got a lot of cool stuff, but what happened to RW and DW is a scandal.

QFT. Crimson Hunters are amazing.

My concern is that they're fragile, and will straight-up crumple against any dedicated anti-air. They don't put out enough firepower to shoot and jink, they dont get any Jink bonuses, and they're only AV10... They can probably **** vehicles up plenty, but against anything that can skyfire back, they're toast. Maybe I can kill off the skyfire before they arrive? Thats not a concern with Hawks/Reapers however. They fit the theme better too, especially if I ignore the "Aspect" thing and just say the eldar have fighters like everyone else.

(The tournament is still hypothetical at the moment, but I see: DA, CSM, AstraM, Daemons, Tau, Orks w/ Stompa (Same guy is building towards a Gladius, though) and there's probably some standard marines i haven't met yet.)

I assume captain I-brought-a-plasma-pistol-and-power-sword-and-no-mobility-enhancer-like-a-chump is catered for by the allowance of "Captain", in that he's not really a named character (as, much like Chaos, Raven Guard can't have nice things), just some dude with his own sculpt and a useless wargear loadout.

Captain Maybe-He-Can-Be-Sold-On-Ebay even comes with an additional ultramarine paint scheme on the GW official page, just to rub in that no, no, you dont get anything that the smurfs can't do better.

Swap the plasma pistol for a grav pistol, give him a jump pack, call him a vanguard sargeant?

Cheesegear

2015-10-23, 08:19 AM

Gahh.. just about everything in the Eldar army costs credits though

But not everything.

(W) Fuegan - 220 Points

Guardians (x10); Bright Lance + Warlock Leader - 145 Points
Guardians (x10); Bright Lance + Warlock Leader - 145 Points
Windriders (x4); x1 Shuriken Cannon + Windrider Warlock - 128 Points
Rangers (x5) - 60 Points
Rangers (x5) - 60 Points
Rangers (x5) - 60 Points

Striking Scorpions (x9); Exarch; Scorpion's Claw - 193 Points
Wraithblades (x7); Ghost Axes and Force Shields - 210 Points

Swooping Hawks (x6) - 96 Points
Vypers (x2); Bright Lances - 100 Points
Vyper; Bright Lance - 50 Points

Dark Reapers (x4); Starshot Missiles - 132 Points
Fire Prism - 125 Points
Fire Prism - 125 Points

Total: 1849 Points

74 models, not a single credit paid. :smallwink:
(inb4; Nope, I didn't even count models as I was making the list - happy accident!)

im especially surprised that the Avatar still does as well.

Remember, just because something (Wraithknight) is ten times better than something else (Avatar), it doesn't actually make the 'something else' bad. The Avatar costs a credit 'cause it's good if you build around it, which you would if you were playing with said Avatar. That Fearless aura is kind of a big deal. One of the most important things about Community Comp is that it always assumes that you're trying to break the game. Even if you aren't running 50 Storm Guardians, with Scorpions and Banshees, CC still Comps the Avatar anyway.

EDIT: The correct combo is the Avatar bubble-wrapped by Wraithblades.

Tehnar

2015-10-23, 08:38 AM

It can be fairly usable for casual games even if you allow some credits...say 5. (Remember the suggested limit for tournament play is 20).

Ricky S

2015-10-23, 09:19 AM

Models available are exclusively those in the battle reports, with the exception of the dragons/wraiths which are proxies, and the second warlock who is technically an Autarch.

Pretty much what Tenhar said. Split your units up and try to win on VP. If you don't have any other models available you will have to out play him.

Haha, cheesegear I have already seen community comp and its rough :) a local player got stomped at a community comp tournament using eldar. Its pretty punishing.

Cheesegear

2015-10-23, 06:03 PM

a local player got stomped at a community comp tournament using eldar. Its pretty punishing.

That's not CC's fault. If a tournament is using Comp, everyone gets Comped, not just the Eldar players. If you lose at a Comp'd tournament, well, it's the same as losing in an unComp'd tournament. CC is just another set of rules that you need to learn (well, you don't even need to learn it, just have it open when you're building your list). CC only creates a new meta. play to the meta, and you win. Don't play to the meta, and you lose. Super simple stuff.

Swooping Hawks aren't Comped. Use Swooping Hawks.
For...Reasons. Shining Spears don't count towards the Jetbike limit, and are also not Comped. So you get punished for running the Jet Council? Okay. Don't run the Jet Council, and run units of Shining Spears instead. Also for...Reasons; Shining Spears don't get Comped even when they're included in an Aspect Host. Which frees your Fast slots in you CAD for spamming Swooping Hawks.

Play to the meta. It's so easy.

EDIT: Guy in my meta runs...

Dark Reapers (x4); Starshot Missiles - 132 Points
Dark Reapers (x4); Starshot Missiles - 132 Points
Dark Reapers (x4); Starshot Missiles - 132 Points

...in a CAD. Can't have more than 13 Dark Reapers? Okay. Can't have 5 or more 'Reapers in a squad with Starshot Missiles? 'Kay. Can't have Dark Reapers in an Aspect Host or CC cries? Well then don't have 'Reapers in an Aspect Host.

Drasius

2015-10-23, 06:05 PM

Hunter Contingent

Consists of:
0-1 Command
1+ Basic
1-10 Auxiliaries

0-1 Command:
- 1 Commander or Shadowsun
- 0-1 Ethereal or Aun'va or Aun'shi
- 1-2 Crisis bodyguards

1+ Basic (Hunder Cadre):
1 Commander
0-1 Fireblade
0-1 Crisis Bodyguards
3-6 Strike, Breacher or Kroot
1-3 Stealth Suits, Ghostkeels, Riptides or Crisis.
1-3 Pathfinders, Piranhas, Vespid, Drones
1-3 Broadsides, Hammerhead, Stormsurge, Sniper

1-10 Auxiliaries:

Retallion Cadre
- 1 Commander
- 3 units of Crisis
- 1 Broadside unit
- 1 Riptide unit
Rules: Relentless
+1 BS when Deep striking
May choose to enter from reserves in turn 2 via Deep Strike. This includes Broadsides.

Heavy Retribution Cadre
- 2 Stormsurges
- 3 Ghostkeels
Rules: If target is at 12" or less from the Ghostkeel, reroll to hit. It two units of the formation, shoot at the same target, target unit cannot run or move flat out next turn, and assault distance is halved (rounded down)

Infiltration Cadre
- 3 Pathfinder units
- 2 Stealth battlesuit units
- 1 Piranha unit
Rules: If one unit of the formation is destroyed, rest of the formation enters from reserve next turn automatically.
If an enemy unit gets hit by 3 or more markerights from this formation, you get a free Seeker missile hit to this unit.

Optimised Stealth Cadre
- 1 Ghostkeel
- 2 Stealth Suit units
Rules: Ghostkeels and any Stealth Battlesuit unit in the formation at 6" of the Ghostkeel ignore cover, add +1 to BS and hit vehicles in the rear

Firebase Support Cadre
- 2 units of battlesuits
- 1 unit Riptides
Note that they do not have to be max size like before
Rules: They formation can combine their shooting attacks and shoot as a single unit. When doing so, they get Tank and monster hunter SR.

Armored Interdiction Cadre
- 3 Units of Hammerheads
- 1 Unit of Sky Rays
Rules: Choose a point in the battlefield. When shooting to a unit at 6" or less from this point, reroll to hit.

Air Support Cadre
- 1 Sun Shark Bomber
- 1 Razorshark Strike Fighter
Rules: Ignore shaken and stunned with 2+.
Beginning of the turn, roll a D6 for each lost hull point. If you roll a 6, recover 1 HP.

Allied Advanced Cadre
- 4 units of Kroot
- 2 units of Vespids
Rules: Vespids get Infiltration and Stealth (Forests)
Kroot at 12" from Vespid units, get Obscured (Forests) instead of Stealth (Forests), and get +1 BS
They all get supporting fire with other units of the formation.

Rules for Hunter Cadre:
- Supporting Fire at 12"
- Can run and the shoot. In this order.

Rules for Hunter Contingent:
- Reroll Warlord trait
- Units can combine their shooting attacks, and shoot as if they were a single unit. So they can get benefit from special rules and the same markerlight, for example. This is really, really powerful.

Other Changes:
- Fire Team SR - +1 BS when 3 or more models in the same unit fire at the same target (or is it maximum squad size?)
- Sky Rays/Hammerheads can now be taken in Squadrons of 1-3
- Riptides can be taken in units of 1-3
- Destroyer Missiles count as Strength D with the expenditure of a Markerlight

Well now. While many units are the same points and have the same rules, some of those formations are pretty crazy. Unfortunately, vespid, the fliers and probably kroot don't get enough of a boost to be worth taking.

Be interesting to see how the whole combine fire thing works with non-networked markerlights.

Fire warriors will be the new hotness with BS4 as long as there's 3 or more in a unit, and mark'o combined with a stormsurge is going to be rough. 4 ignore cover BS5 D-shots at 60" is a hell of a way to open the game. Eat a frosty bag of D... estroyer missiles wraithknight scum.

Relentless broadsides could be interesting, and a min sized firebase could also be OK, but not sure about all this combined fire business. Optimised stealth cadre is borderline broken, 6 autocannon shots and a bunch of melta and burst cannons into rear armour ignoring cover is instant death to anything short of a land raider.

A bit sad that the only way to take a skyray is via an armoured interdiction cadre or CAD, but meh. A single bulked out armoured interdiction cadre would certainly be interesting. Enough skyfire to take on flying circus, enough rail cannons to answer armour and sufficient ion cannons to brutalise MEQ combines with the markerlight support from the skyrays means it's fairly self sufficient. Also immune to Str 6 from the front and has no need to move very far. Add something like a firebase to deter deep strikers and you'll have a fairly interesting little army.

My opinion may just have changed on not bothering to start a tau army.