Armour as DR

[ekarney]

I was reading through the Armour as DR rules and I was wondering if anyone has had experience using them.
What are they like at levels 1 - 6?

[Fouredged Sword]

Players get tougher starting about level 2. After level 6 or so, damage outstrips the armor. I like to pair it with the class bonus to AC and the Vitality point system. The three systems mesh well together, but it puts a lot of stat revision work on the DM. Armor becomes the last line of defense VS a lucky crit.

All in all, it doesn't change all that much.

[illyahr]

Agreed. Armor as DR works ok in an E6 game, but falls apart at higher levels as your AC doesn't raise much after that but damage keeps scaling.

[Remedy]

I'm not a fan of the vitality and wound points system, because my preferred envisioning of D&D fantasy is a world where a high-level Fighter can be directly impaled by a triceratops while still needing psionic power to lock him down. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0927.html) And where said Fighter still has the stamina to get back up and ostensibly get back in the fight, even after getting impaled a second time (this time with sword). (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0929.html) Those don't look like hits to vitality points. :smalltongue:

I will, however, agree wholeheartedly that Armor as DR works great with the Class Bonus to AC variant rules, and I would always recommend using them in tandem. (Makes the Monk bonus to AC feel even weirder than it already was, though.)

[ekarney]

When you all say Class bonus to AC and armour as DR.

Do you convert the class bonus straight to DR as well? So a 5th level Fighter would have 17AC and 3 or 4 DR/-?

Or am I missing something?

[Fouredged Sword]

Nope, we suggest using both as written and non-interacting. Armor rapidly becomes pure DR, while armor defense bonus is purely drawn from class levels.

[ekarney]

Nope, we suggest using both as written and non-interacting. Armor rapidly becomes pure DR, while armor defense bonus is purely drawn from class levels.

So, Full plate gets +4 AC and 4 DR/- under normal armour as DR

but using both systems, it would effectively be +0AC 4DR/-?

Or is it the AC from both and the DR?

[Remedy]

So, Full plate gets +4 AC and 4 DR/- under normal armour as DR

but using both systems, it would effectively be +0AC 4DR/-?

Or is it the AC from both and the DR?
The class bonus is an armor bonus. So if it's higher than +4 and you're wearing full plate, well, they don't stack, so the full plate is just providing DR at that point.

[A_S]

One thing to keep in mind about using both the Armor as DR and class-based AC bonus variants: It badly hoses the "finesse warrior" archetype, especially at low levels.

Basically, DR is somewhat better than AC at low levels (when damage is still low enough that it's being significantly reduced by small amounts of DR). So if you use the Armor as DR variant, characters who wear heavy armor are at a slight advantage over those who wear light armor, but it's somewhat balanced out by the fact that lightly armored characters will tend to have higher AC, and the difference will shrink as levels and damage values increase.

If you combine it with the class-based AC bonus variant, though, you give the biggest AC bonuses to...all the classes that already wear heavy armor. So now, low-level heavily armored characters have DR (at the levels where it's still good), and have AC's just as high as those of lightly armored characters.

This makes a low-level Fighter a lot more durable than a low-level Wizard, which isn't really a problem (things that advantage Fighters over Wizards aren't going to unbalance a system like 3.5). But it also makes a low-level Fighter a whole lot more durable than, say, a low-level Swordsage, or Monk, or Rogue. The entire "lightly armored frontliner" character archetype becomes a deathtrap.

If nobody in your game wants to play a character like that, then it's no problem. But if I wanted to play a Swordsage and I found out these rules were on the table, I'd be pretty sad.

[zergling.exe]

One thing to keep in mind about using both the Armor as DR and class-based AC bonus variants: It badly hoses the "finesse warrior" archetype, especially at low levels.

Basically, DR is somewhat better than AC at low levels (when damage is still low enough that it's being significantly reduced by small amounts of DR). So if you use the Armor as DR variant, characters who wear heavy armor are at a slight advantage over those who wear light armor, but it's somewhat balanced out by the fact that lightly armored characters will tend to have higher AC, and the difference will shrink as levels and damage values increase.

If you combine it with the class-based AC bonus variant, though, you give the biggest AC bonuses to...all the classes that already wear heavy armor. So now, low-level heavily armored characters have DR (at the levels where it's still good), and have AC's just as high as those of lightly armored characters.

This makes a low-level Fighter a lot more durable than a low-level Wizard, which isn't really a problem (things that advantage Fighters over Wizards aren't going to unbalance a system like 3.5). But it also makes a low-level Fighter a whole lot more durable than, say, a low-level Swordsage, or Monk, or Rogue. The entire "lightly armored frontliner" character archetype becomes a deathtrap.

If nobody in your game wants to play a character like that, then it's no problem. But if I wanted to play a Swordsage and I found out these rules were on the table, I'd be pretty sad.

How would it work if you added Reflex into the equation? Just adding straight Reflex (just from the save column, not including dex), classes with good Reflex would eventually have more AC than those with poor Reflex. So how much would you allow to add?

[Fouredged Sword]

Eh, the Finesse warrior suffers a little at low level, but at high level you are basically deciding between having more than +2 max dex to armor or DR4/-. A Finesse warrior with a 5+ dex mod has a significantly higher AC but slightly lower DR. If anything, the Finesse warrior has an easier time keeping his base AC up. A trade of +6 AC from dex and DR1/- VS +2 from dex and DR4/- isn't a huge deal past level 10. At low levels, the difference is notable, I agree.

The biggest group to take a hit are the flurry fighters, like TWFing and monks. That DR adds up.

[dascarletm]

I've seen armor as DR used very successfully in a d20 modern campaign. Since it already has class bonus' to AC, and damage/to hit values go up a lot slower.

When people are using guns primarily the DR is far more significant.

[A_S]

How would it work if you added Reflex into the equation? Just adding straight Reflex (just from the save column, not including dex), classes with good Reflex would eventually have more AC than those with poor Reflex. So how much would you allow to add?
Eh...I suppose you could kludge it this way? I'm not sure about how much to allow exactly; you'd want to tweak things so that Dex-heavy characters end up with AC's somewhat higher than heavily armored characters, who in turn have AC's higher than squishy wizards. This gets you a setup where heavy armor lets you tank more hits, but light armor makes you harder to hit, which seems more like a good outcome.

I'm not sure using Reflex save is the right answer, though; off the top of my head, it would hurt Swashbucklers (who are supposed to be lightly-armored frontliners, but don't have a high Ref save). Really, it might just be easier to make your own list of which class gets which AC bonus, rather than using the one suggested in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm). The list they use (and the guideline they suggest for non-core classes) gives the highest AC bonus to the most heavily armored characters, which is probably not what you want for game balance if you're also giving the heavy armor guys DR. Instead, just reorganize things so that:

Lightly armored characters who are supposed to mix it up in combat (Rogues, Swordsages, Monks, Swashbucklers, etc.) get the highest AC bonus.
Heavily armored characters get a middling AC bonus.
Squishies (Wizards, Sorcerers, etc.) get the lowest AC bonus.

Eh, the Finesse warrior suffers a little at low level, but at high level you are basically deciding between having more than +2 max dex to armor or DR4/-. A Finesse warrior with a 5+ dex mod has a significantly higher AC but slightly lower DR. If anything, the Finesse warrior has an easier time keeping his base AC up. A trade of +6 AC from dex and DR1/- VS +2 from dex and DR4/- isn't a huge deal past level 10. At low levels, the difference is notable, I agree.
I agree that this problem becomes a lot less of a big deal at high levels, largely because all the numbers involved are pretty inconsequential at those levels. DR 4/- doesn't matter much when everybody's doing 100 damage per hit, and high level characters usually have either "AC: Nope" or "AC: Yep."

I brought it up because folks up-thread were talking about using these variants in an E6 game, where this stuff matters a lot.

[Fouredged Sword]

I brought it up because folks up-thread were talking about using these variants in an E6 game, where this stuff matters a lot.

Eh, even at level 6 you are looking at a balance of getting hit 20% less oftine (+4 ac over a full plate character) or tanking 20% more hits (DR4/- is 20% of 20 per hit)

The math works out very much the same. DR/- characters are best when they have high con and available healing. AC characters are best with high dex and debuffed enemies.

[justiceforall]

My group used to use Armour as DR, and we've done away with it because mostly its just incredibly annoying to add an extra calculation on every single part of combat.

I found it to be a good idea in theory, and far more mediocre in execution.

[A_S]

Eh, even at level 6 you are looking at a balance of getting hit 20% less oftine (+4 ac over a full plate character) or tanking 20% more hits (DR4/- is 20% of 20 per hit)

The math works out very much the same. DR/- characters are best when they have high con and available healing. AC characters are best with high dex and debuffed enemies.
Huh? I'm not saying that "having DR is way better" or "having higher AC is way better," I'm saying that if you use the "armor as DR" and "class-based AC bonus" variants at the same time, you end up with both DR and high AC on the heavily armored characters, while the lightly armored characters have no DR and similar AC, which is an advantage for the heavy armor types.

For instance, at level 6:

A Fighter 6 with 12 Dex, wearing full plate, has DR 4/- and AC 19.
A Rogue 6 with 22 Dex, wearing leather armor, has DR 1/- and AC 21.
This isn't, like, the hugest deal in the world (it's much less bad than it is at level 2, say), but in my experience, it's noticeably better for the Fighter.

The situation you're describing, where heavy armor types have more DR and HP and can take more hits, but finesse types are harder to hit, is how I think it should work, but I think you have to do a bit of fiddling with the class-based AC bonuses to get it to be like that, as I discussed in my last post.

[Dilb]

Eh, even at level 6 you are looking at a balance of getting hit 20% less oftine (+4 ac over a full plate character) or tanking 20% more hits (DR4/- is 20% of 20 per hit)

The math works out very much the same. DR/- characters are best when they have high con and available healing. AC characters are best with high dex and debuffed enemies.

That's wrong though. 4 AC means you are hit 20 percentage-points more often. Ignoring crits (which are not a huge deal for most monsters) if you are being hit on 16-20, for example, losing 4 AC means you are hit on 12-20, which doubles the average damage you receive. Even if you are hit on 8-20, if that increases to 4-20, that's 33% more damage. It's only at very low levels that DR is strongly better, where enemies do, e.g., 8 damage or less per hit.

[ekarney]

I've seen armor as DR used very successfully in a d20 modern campaign. Since it already has class bonus' to AC, and damage/to hit values go up a lot slower.

When people are using guns primarily the DR is far more significant.

Funny you should mention that
The reason I was asking was because I'm designing a Cyberpunk game based off the 3.5 system and so having it work with guns and all the different types of things that can be fired from them, such as AP ammo was a concern.

[dascarletm]

Funny you should mention that
The reason I was asking was because I'm designing a Cyberpunk game based off the 3.5 system and so having it work with guns and all the different types of things that can be fired from them, such as AP ammo was a concern.

Our game was actually a cyber-punk game as well.

You can defiantly play around with ammo types. Armor piercing rounds that ignore X armor, hollow-points that deal +X damage to unarmored opponents but dealt half damage to armored characters, etc.

We also converted NA to DR as well. We used pathfinder's version (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/variants/armorAsDamageReduction.html).