Flame of Anor
2015-09-24, 11:34 PM
This is not my work; it's a duplicate of this (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1116806) thread. Since the Wizards forums will be disappearing soon (bad form!) I wanted to preserve a few of these threads. Feel free to continue discussing the thread's topic.
Also, I've changed the color of some of the most important posts to make it easier to see a summary view.
(posted May 24, 2007)
Ok, so the Theoretical Op boards has this thread on max possible speed. Because of Complete Champ I have a good one round solution to that question.
Ok first off, sorry but I do not have the book in front of me so I do not have some of the specific names.
You need: DMM Persist and the new spell in Complete Champ that gives you an alternate movement mode based on a deity that you choose when you cast the spell. Doesn't really matter what god you choose, although Fharlangh gives the biggest boost. Oh and the Run feat.
So that previously mentioned spell says as a swift action you can discharge the remaining energy for a bonus to your speed equal to 5x the remaining duration in rounds.
So burning a persisted version creates, let's see:
5 x 10(rounds in a minute) x 60 minutes in an hour x 24 hours in a day = a bonus of 72,000 to your base land speed. Multiply by 4 for running, that's 288,000 ft in one round (six seconds). That's 48,000 ft/second. This does not include your base speed or any other bonuses to speed you may have (but honestly does it need to).
Barring an infinite loop I think I win.
Now you may be asking yourself, what is the point, when will this ever be necessary. Well, the point is obviously "FOR SCIENCE" and it may come in handy the next time your in Sigil and the Lady of Pain says, "I think you better leave, NOW."
So now that I have wasted your time, just remember to thank me when your enjoying the fact that you just made Greyhawk's first sonic boom.
You need: DMM Persist and the new spell in Complete Champ that gives you an alternate movement mode based on a deity that you choose when you cast the spell. Doesn't really matter what god you choose, although Fharlangh gives the biggest boost. Oh and the Run feat.
So that previously mentioned spell says as a swift action you can discharge the remaining energy for a bonus to your speed equal to 5x the remaining duration in rounds.
So burning a persisted version creates, let's see:
5 x 10(rounds in a minute) x 60 minutes in an hour x 24 hours in a day = a bonus of 72,000 to your base land speed. Multiply by 4 for running, that's 288,000 ft in one round (six seconds). That's 48,000 ft/second. This does not include your base speed or any other bonuses to speed you may have (but honestly does it need to).
Your concept is right, but your math is wrong. Footsteps of the divine says you can expend the spell to add "...an additional +10 feet to your speed per round remaining in the spell's duration." Therefore, you gain a bonus of 10 x 10 x 60 x 24, or 144,000 ft/round. Times FIVE for the Run feat gives 720,000 ft/round, or 120,000 ft/sec.
To put this in perspective, this hypothetical cleric is running at more than four times Earth's escape velocity. He's running so fast that an atomic clock could detect the relativistic time dilation he undergoes as he moves. He's running so fast that, if this weren't magic, his body would be torn apart as he instantly accelerated to 100 times the speed of sound.
By strict RAW, I think this is legal. Persistent Spell states, "Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged." Since footsteps of the divine (the spell in question) has Personal range, and its duration entry is "1 round/level" rather than something sensible like "1 round/level or until discharged", it would seem to be a legal target for Persistent Spell. (DMM: Persist is also not required; footsteps of the divine is only Cleric 3rd.)
In addition, Persistent Spell also says "...have their duration increased to 24 hours." That seems pretty unambiguous: when you choose to expend the spell, its remaining duration is 24 hours minus any time you've used with the already-very-nice bonus to your land speed--or, preferably, since running requires a straight line, one of the fly speeds available from the spell.
The multipliers in this case actually do stack; the 10x10x60x24 is a bonus that's added in to your speed (let's not forget, this is the speed granted by the spell, not your regular speed), which is then multiplied by five. The intermediate step means the weird D&D multiplication rule doesn't apply.
Rule-as-intended doesn't really concern this kind of optimization exercise. Rule-as-written is the thing.
That said, it all boils down to: Can Footsteps of the divine be persisted?
It may be worth asking the Sage or Custserv for a final yes/no answer. :smallcool:
Wasn't there some feat or class in one of the Fiendish Codexes that granted bonus damage on a charge depending on distance moved? :smallamused:
2 additions to this to get 4 times the stated speed...
1) Extend + Persistent Spell makes the duration 48 hours.
2) Polymorph into a Cheetah to get x10 movement on a charge (instead of the x5 movement from the Run feat).
192,083' per second (including the cheetah's base speed of 50'), which is 130,965.909 miles per hour.
Sadly, since this only lasts for 6 seconds, you only travel around 218 miles, although it is a charge so you can attack at the end but it much be in a straight line :p.
Does the effect last for this round or for 1 round? Otherwise we could have fun with White Raven Tactics using people every 109 miles on a route to give you another turn (and another 109 miles of travel, using the run feat rather than cheetah sprint). More contraversialy, you could use it on yourself, using Ruby Knight Vindicator (+turn attempts) to get the extra swift action and restore the maneouvre.
Lord Kiwi
Couple ways to increase it further:
Dark Xeph tauric Cheetah. You get both Burst (+30ft) and Sprint (*10 speed) off in the same round for a base speed ( no magic) of 900ft.
Add in the Speed of thought feet, armor of quickness, Celerity domain, 1 level of Barbarian, etc.
Couple ways to increase it further:
Dark Xeph tauric Cheetah. You get both Burst (+30ft) and Sprint (*10 speed) off in the same round for a base speed ( no magic) of 900ft.
Add in the Speed of thought feet, armor of quickness, Celerity domain, 1 level of Barbarian, etc.
I don't have a copy of Savage Species, so I'm going to take snakeman830 at his word on the Dark Xeph Tauric Cheetah. I also can't calculate the LA on that, so this is very incomplete, but here's what I've come up with that avoids the DMM: Persist trick above:
Dark Xeph Tauric Cheetah
Monk 3 / Psionic Fist 5 (SRD) / Tattooed Monk 2+ (CW) / ?
Feats: Wild Talent (required for PsiFist), Speed of Thought (Psionic)
Tattoos: Wasp (haste for 1 round/Tattooed Monk level)
Base speed: 60' (since the Xeph boost is only +30', and the cheetah's Charge is x10, this has to be the base speed. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong on this - again, I'm deriving the details of the base creature from what was said above.)
Monk speed bonus: +30' (we need to find a way to get 12 monk levels total for +40'.)
Our speedy little Xeph/Cheetah basically builds up like so:
Round 0: At any point prior to this process, he becomes psionically focused (+10').
Round 1: manifests skate (+15' on flat ground, or +30' downhill, or +0' uphill. We'll say +15' on average.) Lasts 1 min./manifester level.
Round 2: uses wasp tattoo for haste (+30')
Round 3: the big finish! Burst (+30') and hustle (extra move action this round.) Charge (x10).
That's (60'+30'+10'+15'+30'+30')x10+(60'+30'+10'+15'+30'+ 30')x2 = 2050' in 6 seconds, if my math is right.
If after taking all the monk-compatible class and PrC levels needed, one could mix in enough cleric levels to cast footsteps of the divine and (if it doesn't apply only to charges like the cheetah's ability) cheetah's speed from Complete Divine. I don't have CD or Comp. Champions in front of me, however.
And of course with enough buffs from other sources (e.g. a scroll of expeditious retreat) and equipment (boots of striding and springing or those Cyrian skates from Eberron) you'll be significantly faster.
About Cheetah's Speed... I'm pretty sure the sprint ability only lets you move 10x on a run/charge instead of 4x (or 2x, for the charge). I don't think it actually multiplies your base speed by 10 for a round.
Here is the exact text:
Sprint (Ex)
Once per hour, a cheetah can move ten times its normal speed (500 feet) when it makes a charge.
Soo yes, it is a straight multiplier and not "instead of."
Granted, this trick is only useable once per hour but still. 400k damage every hour isn't something to sneeze at.
Not hard, man... Cleric 6/Swordsage 14.
True, it is easy to do, the hard part is fitting the cheetahs sprint ability in (which makes the whole thing literally 10 times better).
In any case, quick attempt at a build:
Needed:
A Tauric Cheetah/Xeph is 4 HD +1 Level Adjust. Gives Burst (+30 move, 3/day) and Sprint (10x move on a charge 1/hour).
For the 9th level maneuver, you need a 17 IL. You IL is equal to Levels in a martial class + 1/2 of levels in non-martial classes (HD don't count at all).
Needs to be a 5th level cleric for 3rd level spells.
So....
Tauric Cheetah/Xeph Monsterous Humanoid 4/Cleric 5/Swordsage 10 wouldn't work because that only gives a IL of 12
Tauric Cheetah/Xeph Monsterous Humanoid 4/Cleric 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 5/Swordsage 9 wouldn't work either because then your IL is only 14 (+2 off the previous but still not enough).
Tauric is out since there will always be at least two racial HD and that makes you unable to reach all the requirements by level 20. That leaves polymorphing into a cheetah. Unfortunately, that is wiz/sorcerer spell =\ So while they can cast it off a scroll or have an ally cast it, It would be better if you could do it yourself.
EDIT:
Skate: Enhancement Bonus
Haste: Enhancement Bonus
Burst: Competence Bonus
Speed of Thought: Insight Bonus
Expeditious Retreat: Enhancement Bonus
Boots of Striding and Springing: Enhancement Bonus (The jump bonus is competence though).
So yeah, most of those don't stack =P
My point about discharging, which I don't think I made very well, was that by RAW, footsteps of the divine isn't a spell whose effects can be discharged. The word "discharged" never appears at all anywhere in the spell description--in direct contrast to spells like protection from energy, stoneskin, and the crown of foo spells from PHII, which all have duration entries of "XXX or until discharged".
It also differs from other "discharged" spells in that it lasts for an additional round after you use the swift action to expend it.
Of course RAI blocks this; it's clear that Persistent Spell isn't intended to be used this way, and no sane DM is going to rule that your 5th-level DMM: Persist cleric can now run hundreds of miles in six seconds. But this spell looks like one of those weird corner cases that make the CharOp boards giddy, and I don't see any holes in it.
Wasn't there some feat or class in one of the Fiendish Codexes that granted bonus damage on a charge depending on distance moved?
No idea on the charge bonus damage--but if so, I smell a new damage record, as well.
No idea on the charge bonus damage--but if so, I smell a new damage record, as well.
Other synergies to look into: Tome of Battle, specifically maneuvers like Ring of Fire, Salamander Charge, Tornado Throw, etc.
Here is how Tornado Throw exactly works:
First you have to move at least 10ft to an enemy and you can move up to twice your move speed as part of this maneuver. So base 60ft move with the cheetah sprint ability for a total of 600ft on a charge (1/day). Since you can move as up to twice your move as part of the maneuver, that is a total of 1200ft or 240 5ft increments.
The second part is you have to make a melee touch attack and trip the target. You get a +2 bonus on this check for every 5ft you move. Since you can move 1200ft, that is a +480 on the check. Note: It isn't like skirmish which requires you to move a distance from your starting point, just how far you moved.
The third part is that they are thrown 10f away from you and take 2d6 damage.
The fourth (and most important) part is that for every 5 points you beat them on the check, they move and additional 5ft and take an additional 1d6 damage.
So assuming your base check (Ie, before the bonus from moving) is equal to your targets, that means you are throwing them a minimum of 490ft and dealing 98d6 damage. That is on the low end with a minimal amount of optimization.
With rmccowen's example, we have a total move of 288,000 ft (you can't run but you can double move as part of this maneuver). With that much move, you get a bonus of +576000 to your trip check. That would cause you to throw your target (again, assuming that ignoring the bonus, you match your target on the trip check) 576010ft and deal 115202d6 damage for an average of 403,207 damage. A tidy sum for a single full-round action.
Well... that was both succinct, and awesome. Wasn't the last melee damage record around 30,000 or so?? And if I remember correctly, that build made liberal use of pre-combat buffing. If this works, then it not only blows the last record out of the water, but also does it much more reliably, and with hardly any buffing time.
About Cheetah's Speed... I'm pretty sure the sprint ability only lets you move 10x on a run/charge instead of 4x (or 2x, for the charge). I don't think it actually multiplies your base speed by 10 for a round.
Now we just have to get a build that has access to 9th-level maneuvers and 3rd-level cleric spells... I'll give this a shot tonight, when I'm not AFB.
Now we just have to get a build that has access to 9th-level maneuvers and 3rd-level cleric spells... I'll give this a shot tonight, when I'm not AFB.
Not hard, man... Cleric 6/Swordsage 14.
Due to the unique nature of ToB multiclassing, the above build gets an IL of 17, allowing 9th level manoeuvres. If Swordsage doesn't gain a known manoeuvre on 14th level, then make it Cleric 5/Swordsage 15; it'll be the same effect.
EDIT - AND there's a PrC that's actually made for this stuff. Ruby Knight Vindicator gets both manoeuvres and divine spell progression. On top of that, it'll allow you to burn turn attempts to recharge your manoeuvres. Lots of nightsticks or Extra Turning feats are recommended :P
OK. So I want to say thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. Honestly, I posted this at like 4am, got about six replies and then went to bed. When I came back, r.213 thought to combine this with Tornado Throw (yay ToB) and suddenly we have a new max damage/round trick (barring infinite loops of course).
That's pretty much the recap. While I expect people to try to get this move speed even higher, remember, that the HUGE speed is coming from a Persisted spell, and any addition is likely just adding marginal amounts of fuel to an already roaring inferno. That doesn't mean we should stop. I like my fires bright... and burny!
My next idea involves magma pits, possibly from that spell in Sandstorm. Technically EACH time someone is submerged in lava they take 20d6 fire damage. So give yourself immunity to fire, and suddenly you get another 10,080,000 (average) fire damage from throwing the poor guy into and out of lava every 10ft.
Mmmmmm... extra crispy dragon wings. :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:
That would cause you to throw your target (again, assuming that ignoring the bonus, you match your target on the trip check) 576010ft and deal 115202d6 damage for an average of 403,207 damage. A tidy sum for a single full-round action.
I also just realized that this is throwing your opponent over 100 miles in 6 seconds (roughly 18 miles per second, or 28 km/s). Assuming the standard D&D physics generalization that the apogee of a thrown object is 1/4 the distance thrown, then you are also tossing that sucker over 25 miles up into the air (~40 km). Assuming the campaign world is roughly equal to Earth in terms of gravity (which must be true, since all the physics is based off of Earth physics), then this throw is more than enough to send your target outside of the planet's orbit (judging by Earth's escape velocity of ~11.2 km/s).
It's like a save-or-die, except with no SR, and no save.
Next we need to work on getting the velocity to over 40 km/s, to generate enough speed to launch them out of the solar system!!
In any case, in a setting like Eberron you might even be able to throw people at the moons as a strange method of planar travel.
I personally would throw the person at the sun if the range increment penalty wouldn't be so bad. That said, the worse off I would get is within one square of where I was aiming (as per the thrown weapon rules) and that would still hit the sun. So how much damage would that be? A lot more then immersion in lava I would believe.
Hmm... I'm curious now:
The average temperature of lava is around 950 C (about 1223 K)
The damage per round of immersion in lava is 20d6
The temperature of the Corona (the first part you would hit) is around 5 million K
So (by logical reasoning, sort of) being sent in to the sun would deal around 81766d6 damage (per round).
Which is, oddly enough, less then the damage they would take for being thrown.
EDIT: Granted, it would take the thrown enemy around 892857 rounds to reach the sun (assuming it was one AU away, like the earth).
EDIT 2: AND assuming they didn't hit anything, somehow stop themselves, and aren't already dead.
...First you have to move at least 10ft to an enemy and you can move up to twice your move speed as part of this maneuver. So base 60ft move with the cheetah sprint ability for a total of 600ft on a charge (1/day)...
Sprint (Ex)
Once per hour, a cheetah can move ten times its normal speed (500 feet) when it makes a charge.
There is no charge listed in the Tome of Battle for this maneuver. Moving twice your move speed does not equal a charge. The cheetah only gets the 500ft movement when charging.
It actually works out to...
Total distance moved - 288,000 ft
Trip check bonus - +115200
Distance thrown - ~115200 ft
Damage dealt - ~23040D6 (~80620)
Still awesome damage, and still a record, I believe, but unfortunately not enough to put someone into orbit. That requires a throwing distance of at least 221760 ft.
For theoretical optimization, the rod of Extend would be best. Since it takes a move action to draw the rod, though, it would ruin our current "no prep time" status.
I'd suggest we go with DMM: Extend. That way, the spell can still be cast Quickened+ Persisted + Extended for a 1 round kill, albeit at the cost of extra turning attempts. The Persisted + Extended trick can still be used at the beginning of the day to conserve spell slots and turning attempts (and still kill anything, ever), but if the spell ever gets dispelled, having Quicken around will be essential.
Assuming the build is Cleric 4/Contemplative 2/Swordsage 4/RKV 10...
1) Cleric domains (3) are Planning, Undeath, and the other one that grants Extra Turning as the domain power.
2) Certain feats are required, being Martial Study, Martial Stance, Quicken Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM: Persist, and DMM: Extend.
3) As a human, the build has 8 feats available to it, leaving 2 left over for Extra Turning (plus the other 2 Extra Turning effects from the domains).
Assuming a Cha of 14, that leaves us with 22 turning attempts per day, and...
Swift Action: Quickened Divine Persisted Divine Extended spell (9 Turn Attempts)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Initiate Maneuver (Quicksilver Motion)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Divine Recovery (Quicksilver Motion) (1 Turn Attempt)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Initiate Maneuver (Quicksilver Motion)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Divine Recovery (Quicksilver Motion) (1 Turn Attempt)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Initiate Maneuver (Quicksilver Motion)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Divine Recovery (Quicksilver Motion) (1 Turn Attempt)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Initiate Maneuver (Quicksilver Motion)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Divine Recovery (Quicksilver Motion) (1 Turn Attempt)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
EDIT - Swift action: Initiate Maneuver (Quicksilver Motion)
Giving double the movement speed of the original estimation (288000), and moving that speed a maximum of 7x before throwing the opponent (2016000), giving a 40% bonus on the trip check (806400), and throwing the opponent about the same distance (~806400ft), dealing 1D6 for every 5ft thrown (~161280D6, avg ~564480).
So the current calculations are 806400ft throwing distance, and 564480 damage.
Incidentally, this also generates enough velocity to defeat the sun's gravitational pull, giving you the ability to throw your opponent to another solar system!!
Also, as someone mentioned before, this is only your damage against a single target at the very end of the maneuver. When you actually initiate the maneuver, you can hit as a many targets as you want as long as you move 10ft before you hit the next target. So you get 4x move before the first target, and then you get to attack as many opponents as you can reach....
Did we just break the total damage record for multiple targets as well?
Hey guess what!!
Increase all damage calculations by 17%. We missed one Quicksilver Motion when calculating movement distances up till now.
Also, I think that from now on, calculations need to be discontinued. We already know the number are really really big. I vote we accept the old custom of never counting anything past 40, and using the number 40 to represent any arbitrarily large number.
So yeah... after doing the recalculations, I've found that the build deals 40 damage.
With regards to the name, I believe that honour falls to either rmccowen or *R*, but something with "tornado" in it would make sense, both because of the manoeuvre's name, and because of the possibility of one being created as a side effect of running in a circle :P
The Hulking Whirler?
The Ruby Vortex?
No?
How about something simple and descriptive... like... "Chuck." :D
Ruby Knight Windicator.
Hah. I like that.
Also, I've changed the color of some of the most important posts to make it easier to see a summary view.
(posted May 24, 2007)
Ok, so the Theoretical Op boards has this thread on max possible speed. Because of Complete Champ I have a good one round solution to that question.
Ok first off, sorry but I do not have the book in front of me so I do not have some of the specific names.
You need: DMM Persist and the new spell in Complete Champ that gives you an alternate movement mode based on a deity that you choose when you cast the spell. Doesn't really matter what god you choose, although Fharlangh gives the biggest boost. Oh and the Run feat.
So that previously mentioned spell says as a swift action you can discharge the remaining energy for a bonus to your speed equal to 5x the remaining duration in rounds.
So burning a persisted version creates, let's see:
5 x 10(rounds in a minute) x 60 minutes in an hour x 24 hours in a day = a bonus of 72,000 to your base land speed. Multiply by 4 for running, that's 288,000 ft in one round (six seconds). That's 48,000 ft/second. This does not include your base speed or any other bonuses to speed you may have (but honestly does it need to).
Barring an infinite loop I think I win.
Now you may be asking yourself, what is the point, when will this ever be necessary. Well, the point is obviously "FOR SCIENCE" and it may come in handy the next time your in Sigil and the Lady of Pain says, "I think you better leave, NOW."
So now that I have wasted your time, just remember to thank me when your enjoying the fact that you just made Greyhawk's first sonic boom.
You need: DMM Persist and the new spell in Complete Champ that gives you an alternate movement mode based on a deity that you choose when you cast the spell. Doesn't really matter what god you choose, although Fharlangh gives the biggest boost. Oh and the Run feat.
So that previously mentioned spell says as a swift action you can discharge the remaining energy for a bonus to your speed equal to 5x the remaining duration in rounds.
So burning a persisted version creates, let's see:
5 x 10(rounds in a minute) x 60 minutes in an hour x 24 hours in a day = a bonus of 72,000 to your base land speed. Multiply by 4 for running, that's 288,000 ft in one round (six seconds). That's 48,000 ft/second. This does not include your base speed or any other bonuses to speed you may have (but honestly does it need to).
Your concept is right, but your math is wrong. Footsteps of the divine says you can expend the spell to add "...an additional +10 feet to your speed per round remaining in the spell's duration." Therefore, you gain a bonus of 10 x 10 x 60 x 24, or 144,000 ft/round. Times FIVE for the Run feat gives 720,000 ft/round, or 120,000 ft/sec.
To put this in perspective, this hypothetical cleric is running at more than four times Earth's escape velocity. He's running so fast that an atomic clock could detect the relativistic time dilation he undergoes as he moves. He's running so fast that, if this weren't magic, his body would be torn apart as he instantly accelerated to 100 times the speed of sound.
By strict RAW, I think this is legal. Persistent Spell states, "Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged." Since footsteps of the divine (the spell in question) has Personal range, and its duration entry is "1 round/level" rather than something sensible like "1 round/level or until discharged", it would seem to be a legal target for Persistent Spell. (DMM: Persist is also not required; footsteps of the divine is only Cleric 3rd.)
In addition, Persistent Spell also says "...have their duration increased to 24 hours." That seems pretty unambiguous: when you choose to expend the spell, its remaining duration is 24 hours minus any time you've used with the already-very-nice bonus to your land speed--or, preferably, since running requires a straight line, one of the fly speeds available from the spell.
The multipliers in this case actually do stack; the 10x10x60x24 is a bonus that's added in to your speed (let's not forget, this is the speed granted by the spell, not your regular speed), which is then multiplied by five. The intermediate step means the weird D&D multiplication rule doesn't apply.
Rule-as-intended doesn't really concern this kind of optimization exercise. Rule-as-written is the thing.
That said, it all boils down to: Can Footsteps of the divine be persisted?
It may be worth asking the Sage or Custserv for a final yes/no answer. :smallcool:
Wasn't there some feat or class in one of the Fiendish Codexes that granted bonus damage on a charge depending on distance moved? :smallamused:
2 additions to this to get 4 times the stated speed...
1) Extend + Persistent Spell makes the duration 48 hours.
2) Polymorph into a Cheetah to get x10 movement on a charge (instead of the x5 movement from the Run feat).
192,083' per second (including the cheetah's base speed of 50'), which is 130,965.909 miles per hour.
Sadly, since this only lasts for 6 seconds, you only travel around 218 miles, although it is a charge so you can attack at the end but it much be in a straight line :p.
Does the effect last for this round or for 1 round? Otherwise we could have fun with White Raven Tactics using people every 109 miles on a route to give you another turn (and another 109 miles of travel, using the run feat rather than cheetah sprint). More contraversialy, you could use it on yourself, using Ruby Knight Vindicator (+turn attempts) to get the extra swift action and restore the maneouvre.
Lord Kiwi
Couple ways to increase it further:
Dark Xeph tauric Cheetah. You get both Burst (+30ft) and Sprint (*10 speed) off in the same round for a base speed ( no magic) of 900ft.
Add in the Speed of thought feet, armor of quickness, Celerity domain, 1 level of Barbarian, etc.
Couple ways to increase it further:
Dark Xeph tauric Cheetah. You get both Burst (+30ft) and Sprint (*10 speed) off in the same round for a base speed ( no magic) of 900ft.
Add in the Speed of thought feet, armor of quickness, Celerity domain, 1 level of Barbarian, etc.
I don't have a copy of Savage Species, so I'm going to take snakeman830 at his word on the Dark Xeph Tauric Cheetah. I also can't calculate the LA on that, so this is very incomplete, but here's what I've come up with that avoids the DMM: Persist trick above:
Dark Xeph Tauric Cheetah
Monk 3 / Psionic Fist 5 (SRD) / Tattooed Monk 2+ (CW) / ?
Feats: Wild Talent (required for PsiFist), Speed of Thought (Psionic)
Tattoos: Wasp (haste for 1 round/Tattooed Monk level)
Base speed: 60' (since the Xeph boost is only +30', and the cheetah's Charge is x10, this has to be the base speed. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong on this - again, I'm deriving the details of the base creature from what was said above.)
Monk speed bonus: +30' (we need to find a way to get 12 monk levels total for +40'.)
Our speedy little Xeph/Cheetah basically builds up like so:
Round 0: At any point prior to this process, he becomes psionically focused (+10').
Round 1: manifests skate (+15' on flat ground, or +30' downhill, or +0' uphill. We'll say +15' on average.) Lasts 1 min./manifester level.
Round 2: uses wasp tattoo for haste (+30')
Round 3: the big finish! Burst (+30') and hustle (extra move action this round.) Charge (x10).
That's (60'+30'+10'+15'+30'+30')x10+(60'+30'+10'+15'+30'+ 30')x2 = 2050' in 6 seconds, if my math is right.
If after taking all the monk-compatible class and PrC levels needed, one could mix in enough cleric levels to cast footsteps of the divine and (if it doesn't apply only to charges like the cheetah's ability) cheetah's speed from Complete Divine. I don't have CD or Comp. Champions in front of me, however.
And of course with enough buffs from other sources (e.g. a scroll of expeditious retreat) and equipment (boots of striding and springing or those Cyrian skates from Eberron) you'll be significantly faster.
About Cheetah's Speed... I'm pretty sure the sprint ability only lets you move 10x on a run/charge instead of 4x (or 2x, for the charge). I don't think it actually multiplies your base speed by 10 for a round.
Here is the exact text:
Sprint (Ex)
Once per hour, a cheetah can move ten times its normal speed (500 feet) when it makes a charge.
Soo yes, it is a straight multiplier and not "instead of."
Granted, this trick is only useable once per hour but still. 400k damage every hour isn't something to sneeze at.
Not hard, man... Cleric 6/Swordsage 14.
True, it is easy to do, the hard part is fitting the cheetahs sprint ability in (which makes the whole thing literally 10 times better).
In any case, quick attempt at a build:
Needed:
A Tauric Cheetah/Xeph is 4 HD +1 Level Adjust. Gives Burst (+30 move, 3/day) and Sprint (10x move on a charge 1/hour).
For the 9th level maneuver, you need a 17 IL. You IL is equal to Levels in a martial class + 1/2 of levels in non-martial classes (HD don't count at all).
Needs to be a 5th level cleric for 3rd level spells.
So....
Tauric Cheetah/Xeph Monsterous Humanoid 4/Cleric 5/Swordsage 10 wouldn't work because that only gives a IL of 12
Tauric Cheetah/Xeph Monsterous Humanoid 4/Cleric 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 5/Swordsage 9 wouldn't work either because then your IL is only 14 (+2 off the previous but still not enough).
Tauric is out since there will always be at least two racial HD and that makes you unable to reach all the requirements by level 20. That leaves polymorphing into a cheetah. Unfortunately, that is wiz/sorcerer spell =\ So while they can cast it off a scroll or have an ally cast it, It would be better if you could do it yourself.
EDIT:
Skate: Enhancement Bonus
Haste: Enhancement Bonus
Burst: Competence Bonus
Speed of Thought: Insight Bonus
Expeditious Retreat: Enhancement Bonus
Boots of Striding and Springing: Enhancement Bonus (The jump bonus is competence though).
So yeah, most of those don't stack =P
My point about discharging, which I don't think I made very well, was that by RAW, footsteps of the divine isn't a spell whose effects can be discharged. The word "discharged" never appears at all anywhere in the spell description--in direct contrast to spells like protection from energy, stoneskin, and the crown of foo spells from PHII, which all have duration entries of "XXX or until discharged".
It also differs from other "discharged" spells in that it lasts for an additional round after you use the swift action to expend it.
Of course RAI blocks this; it's clear that Persistent Spell isn't intended to be used this way, and no sane DM is going to rule that your 5th-level DMM: Persist cleric can now run hundreds of miles in six seconds. But this spell looks like one of those weird corner cases that make the CharOp boards giddy, and I don't see any holes in it.
Wasn't there some feat or class in one of the Fiendish Codexes that granted bonus damage on a charge depending on distance moved?
No idea on the charge bonus damage--but if so, I smell a new damage record, as well.
No idea on the charge bonus damage--but if so, I smell a new damage record, as well.
Other synergies to look into: Tome of Battle, specifically maneuvers like Ring of Fire, Salamander Charge, Tornado Throw, etc.
Here is how Tornado Throw exactly works:
First you have to move at least 10ft to an enemy and you can move up to twice your move speed as part of this maneuver. So base 60ft move with the cheetah sprint ability for a total of 600ft on a charge (1/day). Since you can move as up to twice your move as part of the maneuver, that is a total of 1200ft or 240 5ft increments.
The second part is you have to make a melee touch attack and trip the target. You get a +2 bonus on this check for every 5ft you move. Since you can move 1200ft, that is a +480 on the check. Note: It isn't like skirmish which requires you to move a distance from your starting point, just how far you moved.
The third part is that they are thrown 10f away from you and take 2d6 damage.
The fourth (and most important) part is that for every 5 points you beat them on the check, they move and additional 5ft and take an additional 1d6 damage.
So assuming your base check (Ie, before the bonus from moving) is equal to your targets, that means you are throwing them a minimum of 490ft and dealing 98d6 damage. That is on the low end with a minimal amount of optimization.
With rmccowen's example, we have a total move of 288,000 ft (you can't run but you can double move as part of this maneuver). With that much move, you get a bonus of +576000 to your trip check. That would cause you to throw your target (again, assuming that ignoring the bonus, you match your target on the trip check) 576010ft and deal 115202d6 damage for an average of 403,207 damage. A tidy sum for a single full-round action.
Well... that was both succinct, and awesome. Wasn't the last melee damage record around 30,000 or so?? And if I remember correctly, that build made liberal use of pre-combat buffing. If this works, then it not only blows the last record out of the water, but also does it much more reliably, and with hardly any buffing time.
About Cheetah's Speed... I'm pretty sure the sprint ability only lets you move 10x on a run/charge instead of 4x (or 2x, for the charge). I don't think it actually multiplies your base speed by 10 for a round.
Now we just have to get a build that has access to 9th-level maneuvers and 3rd-level cleric spells... I'll give this a shot tonight, when I'm not AFB.
Now we just have to get a build that has access to 9th-level maneuvers and 3rd-level cleric spells... I'll give this a shot tonight, when I'm not AFB.
Not hard, man... Cleric 6/Swordsage 14.
Due to the unique nature of ToB multiclassing, the above build gets an IL of 17, allowing 9th level manoeuvres. If Swordsage doesn't gain a known manoeuvre on 14th level, then make it Cleric 5/Swordsage 15; it'll be the same effect.
EDIT - AND there's a PrC that's actually made for this stuff. Ruby Knight Vindicator gets both manoeuvres and divine spell progression. On top of that, it'll allow you to burn turn attempts to recharge your manoeuvres. Lots of nightsticks or Extra Turning feats are recommended :P
OK. So I want to say thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. Honestly, I posted this at like 4am, got about six replies and then went to bed. When I came back, r.213 thought to combine this with Tornado Throw (yay ToB) and suddenly we have a new max damage/round trick (barring infinite loops of course).
That's pretty much the recap. While I expect people to try to get this move speed even higher, remember, that the HUGE speed is coming from a Persisted spell, and any addition is likely just adding marginal amounts of fuel to an already roaring inferno. That doesn't mean we should stop. I like my fires bright... and burny!
My next idea involves magma pits, possibly from that spell in Sandstorm. Technically EACH time someone is submerged in lava they take 20d6 fire damage. So give yourself immunity to fire, and suddenly you get another 10,080,000 (average) fire damage from throwing the poor guy into and out of lava every 10ft.
Mmmmmm... extra crispy dragon wings. :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:
That would cause you to throw your target (again, assuming that ignoring the bonus, you match your target on the trip check) 576010ft and deal 115202d6 damage for an average of 403,207 damage. A tidy sum for a single full-round action.
I also just realized that this is throwing your opponent over 100 miles in 6 seconds (roughly 18 miles per second, or 28 km/s). Assuming the standard D&D physics generalization that the apogee of a thrown object is 1/4 the distance thrown, then you are also tossing that sucker over 25 miles up into the air (~40 km). Assuming the campaign world is roughly equal to Earth in terms of gravity (which must be true, since all the physics is based off of Earth physics), then this throw is more than enough to send your target outside of the planet's orbit (judging by Earth's escape velocity of ~11.2 km/s).
It's like a save-or-die, except with no SR, and no save.
Next we need to work on getting the velocity to over 40 km/s, to generate enough speed to launch them out of the solar system!!
In any case, in a setting like Eberron you might even be able to throw people at the moons as a strange method of planar travel.
I personally would throw the person at the sun if the range increment penalty wouldn't be so bad. That said, the worse off I would get is within one square of where I was aiming (as per the thrown weapon rules) and that would still hit the sun. So how much damage would that be? A lot more then immersion in lava I would believe.
Hmm... I'm curious now:
The average temperature of lava is around 950 C (about 1223 K)
The damage per round of immersion in lava is 20d6
The temperature of the Corona (the first part you would hit) is around 5 million K
So (by logical reasoning, sort of) being sent in to the sun would deal around 81766d6 damage (per round).
Which is, oddly enough, less then the damage they would take for being thrown.
EDIT: Granted, it would take the thrown enemy around 892857 rounds to reach the sun (assuming it was one AU away, like the earth).
EDIT 2: AND assuming they didn't hit anything, somehow stop themselves, and aren't already dead.
...First you have to move at least 10ft to an enemy and you can move up to twice your move speed as part of this maneuver. So base 60ft move with the cheetah sprint ability for a total of 600ft on a charge (1/day)...
Sprint (Ex)
Once per hour, a cheetah can move ten times its normal speed (500 feet) when it makes a charge.
There is no charge listed in the Tome of Battle for this maneuver. Moving twice your move speed does not equal a charge. The cheetah only gets the 500ft movement when charging.
It actually works out to...
Total distance moved - 288,000 ft
Trip check bonus - +115200
Distance thrown - ~115200 ft
Damage dealt - ~23040D6 (~80620)
Still awesome damage, and still a record, I believe, but unfortunately not enough to put someone into orbit. That requires a throwing distance of at least 221760 ft.
For theoretical optimization, the rod of Extend would be best. Since it takes a move action to draw the rod, though, it would ruin our current "no prep time" status.
I'd suggest we go with DMM: Extend. That way, the spell can still be cast Quickened+ Persisted + Extended for a 1 round kill, albeit at the cost of extra turning attempts. The Persisted + Extended trick can still be used at the beginning of the day to conserve spell slots and turning attempts (and still kill anything, ever), but if the spell ever gets dispelled, having Quicken around will be essential.
Assuming the build is Cleric 4/Contemplative 2/Swordsage 4/RKV 10...
1) Cleric domains (3) are Planning, Undeath, and the other one that grants Extra Turning as the domain power.
2) Certain feats are required, being Martial Study, Martial Stance, Quicken Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM: Persist, and DMM: Extend.
3) As a human, the build has 8 feats available to it, leaving 2 left over for Extra Turning (plus the other 2 Extra Turning effects from the domains).
Assuming a Cha of 14, that leaves us with 22 turning attempts per day, and...
Swift Action: Quickened Divine Persisted Divine Extended spell (9 Turn Attempts)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Initiate Maneuver (Quicksilver Motion)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Divine Recovery (Quicksilver Motion) (1 Turn Attempt)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Initiate Maneuver (Quicksilver Motion)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Divine Recovery (Quicksilver Motion) (1 Turn Attempt)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Initiate Maneuver (Quicksilver Motion)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Divine Recovery (Quicksilver Motion) (1 Turn Attempt)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Initiate Maneuver (Quicksilver Motion)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Divine Recovery (Quicksilver Motion) (1 Turn Attempt)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
EDIT - Swift action: Initiate Maneuver (Quicksilver Motion)
Giving double the movement speed of the original estimation (288000), and moving that speed a maximum of 7x before throwing the opponent (2016000), giving a 40% bonus on the trip check (806400), and throwing the opponent about the same distance (~806400ft), dealing 1D6 for every 5ft thrown (~161280D6, avg ~564480).
So the current calculations are 806400ft throwing distance, and 564480 damage.
Incidentally, this also generates enough velocity to defeat the sun's gravitational pull, giving you the ability to throw your opponent to another solar system!!
Also, as someone mentioned before, this is only your damage against a single target at the very end of the maneuver. When you actually initiate the maneuver, you can hit as a many targets as you want as long as you move 10ft before you hit the next target. So you get 4x move before the first target, and then you get to attack as many opponents as you can reach....
Did we just break the total damage record for multiple targets as well?
Hey guess what!!
Increase all damage calculations by 17%. We missed one Quicksilver Motion when calculating movement distances up till now.
Also, I think that from now on, calculations need to be discontinued. We already know the number are really really big. I vote we accept the old custom of never counting anything past 40, and using the number 40 to represent any arbitrarily large number.
So yeah... after doing the recalculations, I've found that the build deals 40 damage.
With regards to the name, I believe that honour falls to either rmccowen or *R*, but something with "tornado" in it would make sense, both because of the manoeuvre's name, and because of the possibility of one being created as a side effect of running in a circle :P
The Hulking Whirler?
The Ruby Vortex?
No?
How about something simple and descriptive... like... "Chuck." :D
Ruby Knight Windicator.
Hah. I like that.