Bullet06320
2015-09-25, 02:32 AM
as originally posted on the WOTC boards by julescarv on May 16, 2007
http://community.wizards.com/comment/50133776#comment-50133776
Minimizing caster level: why would anyone want to do such a thing? The idea is that an artificer's item-creation abilities are caster-level based. As such, an artificer who goes by the minimum caster level of a cleric can't scribe a scroll of miracle until level 15 -- but going by other classes, they might get it sooner. Here's what I've come up with so far.
Cleric spells -- accessible to an ur-priest. Caster level = spell level, if the ur-priest has no spellcasting before entering the prestige class, or cleric spellcasting. (5th level spells have minimum caster level 5, etc).
Domain spells -- accessible to a divine crusader. One again, Caster level = spell level.
Sorcerer/Wizard spells -- here, things get a bit more confusing. There are two ways of getting high spell-level/low caster-level spells here.
A bard/sublime chord gets accelerated casting. Since this is a silly theoretical optimization exercise, we might as well push it as far as we can: let's take an illumian bard 1/rogue 9 with precocious apprentice and improved sigil (krau). She becomes a bard 1/rogue 9/sublime chord 1, able to cast 4th and 5th level bard and sorcerer spells with a caster level of two. From then on, progression is a bit more normal: 6th level spells require a caster level of 4, 7th require 6, 8th require 8, and 9th require 10.
Level 2 sorcerer/wizard spells also are accessible with a CL of 1, via precocious apprentice.
Level 3 sor/wiz spells still require a caster level of 5, as far as I can tell. It's a bit odd: you can cast level 0, 1, and 2 arcane spells at CL 1, then you need CL 5 to cast level 3 arcane spells, then you go back down to CL 2 to cast 4th and 5th level arcane spells.
Bard spells -- well, I think this is mostly covered by the bard/sublime chord combination for bard spells of level 4 or higher. Bard has another weird "hump" in CL: level 0 spells have minimum CL 1, level 1 spells have minimum CL 2, then level 2 spells go back to minimum CL 1 thanks to precocious apprentice. Spell level 3 -- well, the best I can come up with is CL 6, which is barely better than the default of CL 7. That's the caster level at which a chameleon can cast level 3 arcane spells.
Depending on whether aptitude focuses are usable for item creation, the chameleon provides a bit of help for both arcane and divine spellcasting CL minimization for level 2 spells: they can cast them at chameleon level 1 with a CL of 2. From then on, chameleon spellcasting quickly becomes a worse and worse deal for CL minimization: level 3 spells at CL 6, level 4 spells at CL 10, level 5 spells at CL 14, and level 6 spells at CL 18.
The blighter could be addressed, but in truth, I don't feel like bothering. Its spell list is so thoroughly mediocre that the divine crusader, ur-priest, bard/sublime chord, and such probably make it completely obsolete.
So... for an artificer, this means that 9th level cleric and domain spells can be scribed onto scrolls at level 7, since artificers can meet item creation prerequisites two caster levels higher than they are, and can scribe 9th level sorcerer/wizard spells at level 8. Furthermore, polymorph is available at level 1 for an artificer.
Update: I failed to take into account the feats Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, and Pierce Magical Protection. With those, every spell, I believe, is accessible with a caster level of 1, when combined with other tricks (ur-priests, etc).
Commoner 1 Proxies are casting Domain spells at caster level 11, and that's even on the 7s 8s and 9s.
Presumably an item of X can be made from said castings.
Efreet and Noble Djinn are spell-like-ing Wish at caster level 12.
Ardent 2 / Caster 1 with tricks / Cerebremancer or Psychic Theurge 10,
with Psiotheurgist feat from Dragon #349, gets 3rd level powers at 3rd, 4s at 4th, etc.
but then you take ExpandedKnowledge and pick a power that is not part of the Psiotheurgist double count, and EK works with any power and 'surprise' your manifester level on that power is just your Ardent manifester level.
EK at 6th level would give you a 5th level power, but only 5ML if it's not on the Psiotheurgist feat.
Lost Empires of Faerun web enhancement has Monastic Servant of Auppenser.http://candlekeep.com/library/articles/leof_msoa.htm
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20050216a
So that lets almost all psionic powers be turned into cleric divine spells.
The exception being you : "Can never have cast a spell or used a magic or psionic item to dominate or control the mind of another being."
Effectively you trade a small group of enchantment spells for psionics.
Result - psionics follows the cleric/divine pattern on post #1 above, and are now effected by post #2.
Psionic Discipline (Sp): The monastic servant chooses one of the six disciplines available to the psion class. The powers from that discipline are now on the monastic servant's cleric spell list meaning that the monastic servant can prepare and cast powers from that discipline as if they were divine spells of the same level.These powers detect as both divine and psionics although they are divinely powered. A monastic servant does not expend power points when casting these spells and cannot augment them by expending power points. If a monastic servant is or becomes a psion, she must choose the same discipline.
Sublime Transference (Ex): At 1st level, a monastic servant's class levels stack with any of her psionic class levels for purposes of determining caster level dependent variables of a manifested power (such as range, duration, etc.) and for purposes of meeting feat requirements. Additionally, a monastic servant with a psionic item creation feat can make psionic items using any psionic powers she knows (either from a psionic class or from psionic powers that she can prepare as divine spells). A monastic servant without any psionic class levels uses her monastic servant class level as her manifestor level when crafting psionic items.
I'm curious as to how you resolve what the underlining above does. The MSoA is not manifesting a psionic power, nor expending power points,
rather it's as a divine spell in one location and as ifa divine spell in the other location.
editors note: while technically 3rd party source by a WOTC author posted on Candle Keep, it is an interesting class and offers interesting options should you decide to use this
Magic of Eberron has the feat Psychic Rush.
For 1 action point, it reduces the cost of a power by d6 powerpoints.
Combined with Psiotheurgist, and a very specific build,
that reduces the cost of all up to 8th level powers to 1 pp.
Limited Wish, Wish, and Miracle open up any power up to 7th level
to non-psi for just 1 pp; so that's about the same ball park.
MSoA if allowed, puts most 9s onto the Cleric reduction.
That would just leave Charming/Mind Control Psi- 9s.
Metapower and Midnight Augmentation combined with Psychic Rush (above)
would reduce augmentation costs to 1pp for any augment up to (8+PowerLevel of PP)pp total cost.
The CPsi powerstone nerf could be two-wayed. First to make a cheap powerstone.
Then use it, via the 3 feats above for augmenting, to make a new powerstone, with the cheapened augmentation.
Lastly, Chameleon Crafting feat in Dragon #349 can make psi powers into an arcane or divine item; and vice versa.
All for the cost of *1.5 exp of normal.
Scrolls of Psi powers can be made, and then Wizards or Archivists can run them through the loop.
That feat is totally borkny.
CONCLUSION:
Psionics is hard to do this way, but all in all, every spell and power can be 1 CL or ML.
Psi-powers can also be augmented by bunches for just 1 more pp.
Druid spells can now be treated as Arcane.
P.30 of Dragons of Eberron, has a dragon religion called Child of Eberron.
It adds Druid spells to the arcane list, for the dragon.
For everybody else:
Locate said dragon ; Charm said dragon ; You start making a scroll ; The dragon supplies the spell.
Then stick it through JulesCARV's loop.
What makes it ... s ... l ... o ... w ... ,
is which-ever dragon only knows a Sorcerer's # of spells,
so the total known Druid=arcane spells,
will be limited one dragon, to one other dragon, to the next dragon, etc.
http://community.wizards.com/comment/50133776#comment-50133776
Minimizing caster level: why would anyone want to do such a thing? The idea is that an artificer's item-creation abilities are caster-level based. As such, an artificer who goes by the minimum caster level of a cleric can't scribe a scroll of miracle until level 15 -- but going by other classes, they might get it sooner. Here's what I've come up with so far.
Cleric spells -- accessible to an ur-priest. Caster level = spell level, if the ur-priest has no spellcasting before entering the prestige class, or cleric spellcasting. (5th level spells have minimum caster level 5, etc).
Domain spells -- accessible to a divine crusader. One again, Caster level = spell level.
Sorcerer/Wizard spells -- here, things get a bit more confusing. There are two ways of getting high spell-level/low caster-level spells here.
A bard/sublime chord gets accelerated casting. Since this is a silly theoretical optimization exercise, we might as well push it as far as we can: let's take an illumian bard 1/rogue 9 with precocious apprentice and improved sigil (krau). She becomes a bard 1/rogue 9/sublime chord 1, able to cast 4th and 5th level bard and sorcerer spells with a caster level of two. From then on, progression is a bit more normal: 6th level spells require a caster level of 4, 7th require 6, 8th require 8, and 9th require 10.
Level 2 sorcerer/wizard spells also are accessible with a CL of 1, via precocious apprentice.
Level 3 sor/wiz spells still require a caster level of 5, as far as I can tell. It's a bit odd: you can cast level 0, 1, and 2 arcane spells at CL 1, then you need CL 5 to cast level 3 arcane spells, then you go back down to CL 2 to cast 4th and 5th level arcane spells.
Bard spells -- well, I think this is mostly covered by the bard/sublime chord combination for bard spells of level 4 or higher. Bard has another weird "hump" in CL: level 0 spells have minimum CL 1, level 1 spells have minimum CL 2, then level 2 spells go back to minimum CL 1 thanks to precocious apprentice. Spell level 3 -- well, the best I can come up with is CL 6, which is barely better than the default of CL 7. That's the caster level at which a chameleon can cast level 3 arcane spells.
Depending on whether aptitude focuses are usable for item creation, the chameleon provides a bit of help for both arcane and divine spellcasting CL minimization for level 2 spells: they can cast them at chameleon level 1 with a CL of 2. From then on, chameleon spellcasting quickly becomes a worse and worse deal for CL minimization: level 3 spells at CL 6, level 4 spells at CL 10, level 5 spells at CL 14, and level 6 spells at CL 18.
The blighter could be addressed, but in truth, I don't feel like bothering. Its spell list is so thoroughly mediocre that the divine crusader, ur-priest, bard/sublime chord, and such probably make it completely obsolete.
So... for an artificer, this means that 9th level cleric and domain spells can be scribed onto scrolls at level 7, since artificers can meet item creation prerequisites two caster levels higher than they are, and can scribe 9th level sorcerer/wizard spells at level 8. Furthermore, polymorph is available at level 1 for an artificer.
Update: I failed to take into account the feats Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, and Pierce Magical Protection. With those, every spell, I believe, is accessible with a caster level of 1, when combined with other tricks (ur-priests, etc).
Commoner 1 Proxies are casting Domain spells at caster level 11, and that's even on the 7s 8s and 9s.
Presumably an item of X can be made from said castings.
Efreet and Noble Djinn are spell-like-ing Wish at caster level 12.
Ardent 2 / Caster 1 with tricks / Cerebremancer or Psychic Theurge 10,
with Psiotheurgist feat from Dragon #349, gets 3rd level powers at 3rd, 4s at 4th, etc.
but then you take ExpandedKnowledge and pick a power that is not part of the Psiotheurgist double count, and EK works with any power and 'surprise' your manifester level on that power is just your Ardent manifester level.
EK at 6th level would give you a 5th level power, but only 5ML if it's not on the Psiotheurgist feat.
Lost Empires of Faerun web enhancement has Monastic Servant of Auppenser.http://candlekeep.com/library/articles/leof_msoa.htm
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20050216a
So that lets almost all psionic powers be turned into cleric divine spells.
The exception being you : "Can never have cast a spell or used a magic or psionic item to dominate or control the mind of another being."
Effectively you trade a small group of enchantment spells for psionics.
Result - psionics follows the cleric/divine pattern on post #1 above, and are now effected by post #2.
Psionic Discipline (Sp): The monastic servant chooses one of the six disciplines available to the psion class. The powers from that discipline are now on the monastic servant's cleric spell list meaning that the monastic servant can prepare and cast powers from that discipline as if they were divine spells of the same level.These powers detect as both divine and psionics although they are divinely powered. A monastic servant does not expend power points when casting these spells and cannot augment them by expending power points. If a monastic servant is or becomes a psion, she must choose the same discipline.
Sublime Transference (Ex): At 1st level, a monastic servant's class levels stack with any of her psionic class levels for purposes of determining caster level dependent variables of a manifested power (such as range, duration, etc.) and for purposes of meeting feat requirements. Additionally, a monastic servant with a psionic item creation feat can make psionic items using any psionic powers she knows (either from a psionic class or from psionic powers that she can prepare as divine spells). A monastic servant without any psionic class levels uses her monastic servant class level as her manifestor level when crafting psionic items.
I'm curious as to how you resolve what the underlining above does. The MSoA is not manifesting a psionic power, nor expending power points,
rather it's as a divine spell in one location and as ifa divine spell in the other location.
editors note: while technically 3rd party source by a WOTC author posted on Candle Keep, it is an interesting class and offers interesting options should you decide to use this
Magic of Eberron has the feat Psychic Rush.
For 1 action point, it reduces the cost of a power by d6 powerpoints.
Combined with Psiotheurgist, and a very specific build,
that reduces the cost of all up to 8th level powers to 1 pp.
Limited Wish, Wish, and Miracle open up any power up to 7th level
to non-psi for just 1 pp; so that's about the same ball park.
MSoA if allowed, puts most 9s onto the Cleric reduction.
That would just leave Charming/Mind Control Psi- 9s.
Metapower and Midnight Augmentation combined with Psychic Rush (above)
would reduce augmentation costs to 1pp for any augment up to (8+PowerLevel of PP)pp total cost.
The CPsi powerstone nerf could be two-wayed. First to make a cheap powerstone.
Then use it, via the 3 feats above for augmenting, to make a new powerstone, with the cheapened augmentation.
Lastly, Chameleon Crafting feat in Dragon #349 can make psi powers into an arcane or divine item; and vice versa.
All for the cost of *1.5 exp of normal.
Scrolls of Psi powers can be made, and then Wizards or Archivists can run them through the loop.
That feat is totally borkny.
CONCLUSION:
Psionics is hard to do this way, but all in all, every spell and power can be 1 CL or ML.
Psi-powers can also be augmented by bunches for just 1 more pp.
Druid spells can now be treated as Arcane.
P.30 of Dragons of Eberron, has a dragon religion called Child of Eberron.
It adds Druid spells to the arcane list, for the dragon.
For everybody else:
Locate said dragon ; Charm said dragon ; You start making a scroll ; The dragon supplies the spell.
Then stick it through JulesCARV's loop.
What makes it ... s ... l ... o ... w ... ,
is which-ever dragon only knows a Sorcerer's # of spells,
so the total known Druid=arcane spells,
will be limited one dragon, to one other dragon, to the next dragon, etc.