Advices for a druid? (without a nature spell!)

[Daozi]

Hi there,

We're about to start a new campaign. Some rules come from Pathfinder, most from 3.5e (DM is mixing them in his own way). To make a long story short: I'm going to play as a druid - for the first time in my life; I've been always choosing melee fighters before.
Now: do you have any advices as to a good build?
Important in here is that: Nature spell feat is banned and there are no dinosaurs; I'm fully ok with the last, frankly.
My preferences (for a druid; in a private life it would be my wife): Animal companion: Tiger; race: Dwarf; Alignment: neutral good or true neutral. IF this is a good idea I was thinking to have a good-fighting companion - Tiger - and focus on some spells. Our wizard will be, most probably, a buffer by the way. Weapon - quarterstaff or scimitar (I prefer the first one).
Any advice would be nice :)

Thanks.

[Bullet06320]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook

start with this

[Albions_Angel]

To be fair, he said no nature spell, which the handbook STRONGLY disagrees with.

Will your DM allow variant druids? If so, ditch the companion and go Shapeshifter. So useful. At low levels you are tanky as hell. Mid levels you begin to slow down, but oh look! You can go into Warshaper for 4 levels! Then back to Druid. Grab improved natural attack, stuff like that. Improved initiative as well. Combat starts, throw down an entangle (or similar area effect control spell) as your standard, morph into a wolf/panther/something cool as a swift, run in to combat as your move.

Or build towards a mobility build. There is a feat somewhere that allows you to make an AoO every time someone attacks you and misses. Works really well with a Shapeshifter as you snag mobility and run in circles around a group of enemies. They all get AoOs, which will miss, and you get AoOs back.

Also reserve feats. Call lightning on a shape shifter is really good.

Template it up. Be a dragonborn. Now you are either a dog that breaths fire, or a dog that flies.

[Daozi]

Well, as to shapeshifting - here we have Pathfinder rules which, correct me if I'm wrong, are way "weaker" than original 3.5 ones. What I mean is, that original statistics are not changing that much, while shapeshifting, as in 3.5. So e.g.: there is some increase in str, but the character doesn't have full str of a creature he's shifting to. Anyway, I'll check the Warshaper possibility, thanks.
I agree - nature spell should be here, but you know - DM is usually right. If you say he's not, then you can always encounter red dragon wyrm on your way accidentally.

@Bullet06320 - I must admit - I have missed these... Thanks.
Although most of such handbooks state something like: "take a nature spell...", "you only need a nature spell..." etc. ;)

[zergling.exe]

Well, as to shapeshifting - here we have Pathfinder rules which, correct me if I'm wrong, are way "weaker" than original 3.5 ones. What I mean is, that original statistics are not changing that much, while shapeshifting, as in 3.5. So e.g.: there is some increase in str, but the character doesn't have full str of a creature he's shifting to. Anyway, I'll check the Warshaper possibility, thanks.

I believe they are referring to the Shapeshift ACF for druids in the PHB2. You lose both your animal companion and wild shape, but you gain a few specific forms with stat boosts similar to Pathfinder's.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Will your DM allow variant druids? If so, ditch the companion and go Shapeshifter. So useful. At low levels you are tanky as hell. Mid levels you begin to slow down, but oh look! You can go into Warshaper for 4 levels! Then back to Druid. Grab improved natural attack, stuff like that. Improved initiative as well. Combat starts, throw down an entangle (or similar area effect control spell) as your standard, morph into a wolf/panther/something cool as a swift, run in to combat as your move.

Or build towards a mobility build. There is a feat somewhere that allows you to make an AoO every time someone attacks you and misses. Works really well with a Shapeshifter as you snag mobility and run in circles around a group of enemies. They all get AoOs, which will miss, and you get AoOs back.

Also reserve feats. Call lightning on a shape shifter is really good.

Why would you do this to yourself? Shapeshifting ACF sucks, even without losing your companion. If you don't want to bother with Wild Shape then don't bother, but don't replace it with something that's pretty much the same, just worse in every aspect.

One method would be to replace Wild Shape with the Swift Hunter ACF. You get some ranger and monk abilities and can ignore wildshaping while keeping your animal companion, and this opens up some options for PrC's that the standard druid never takes because the standard druid trifecta is just too good.


OP, you said you always play melee otherwise, so why not try a caster?
Something like a Dream Dwarf Druid 5/Runecaster 2/Earth Dreamer 5/Runecaster 6/X 2 is a pretty decent casting druid, with the Urban Companion and Swift Hunter ACF's.

You wanted a dwarf, so lets make him a Dream Dwarf (RoS). Let's say we take the opportunity to multiclass, because druids so rarely do.
But that means the animal companion doesn't progress after level 5. That sucks, so we replace it with Urban Companion (CS) for a better familiar that's far less reliant on class level.
Earth Dreamer (RoS) is a pretty decent caster PrC, and the ability to earth glide and see through stone are useful as hell for a squishier character. It also fits the dwarf flavor. Note that it needs Spellcraft 10, so you can only enter at ECL 8.
That's 10 levels filled. Personally i'd fill up the rest with 8 levels of Runecaster (PGtF), because it's an awesome class and fits the dwarf, but any full-casting PrC will do.

[Rebel7284]

Is Surrogate Spellcasting also banned? You can take that plus Eschew Materials to effectively get Natural Spell for the cost of two feats. Not sure if getting around your DM's restriction in that way is what you want to do, just pointing it out. :)

[eggynack]

To be fair, he said no nature spell, which the handbook STRONGLY disagrees with.
Well, yeah, but most things operate fine without it. The wild shape section winds up a lot different, I think, and there are some slight changes you'd want to spells (like ditching enhance wild shape and upping the value of spells replaced by forms), but the rest of it holds up in that environment. In any case, I'd advise prioritizing a mantle of the beast (CC, 140), which grants swift action wild shape. It's not perfect, but it definitely improves your ability to use spells and forms in concert, especially if you want to go the buff and beat down route.

[Albions_Angel]

Why would you do this to yourself? Shapeshifting ACF sucks, even without losing your companion. If you don't want to bother with Wild Shape then don't bother, but don't replace it with something that's pretty much the same, just worse in every aspect.


I wouldnt say it sucks. Its not to everyones taste, but it DOES give you shapeshift at level 1, unlimited times a day, a huge speed and power boost, natural armor, and while you cant cast spells in shapechanged form, given OP's restrictions, that doesnt actually matter. You are no worse of a casters as a shapeshifting druid, but you end up prioritizing strength and dex as well as wis. You just build the char differently to make them melee focused. Combined with the right starting race (and template), they can hold their own quiet well at low and mid levels. I understand that is basically stripping out the utility of a druid (which is what makes a druid tier 1), but honestly, when do people ever play fully optimized characters in a fully optimized way in a fully optimized campaign. Lots of people pick flavor and doing 1 or 2 things well over versatility in most games.

I, for one, have played a shapeshifer druid with the spontaneous healing variant very successfully (after our party, built for land combat in open terrain, got dumped on a jungle filled island string and my knight, built for city combat and battlefield control, got eaten by a dragon along with the cleric, depriving our party of a front line and a healer).

[Theodred theOld]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook
Everything anyone could ever want including ways to get around no natural spell. If the DM thinks natural spell is too much maybe you should take versatile spellcaster instead. Lets you cast spontaneously off the entire druid list. Add invisible spell on top of that for all sorts of fun. Thanks Eggy.

[Greenish]

Why would you do this to yourself? Shapeshifting ACF sucks, even without losing your companion.Less book diving, less book keeping, less power. I can see why you'd want any or all of the three.

[eggynack]

Less book diving, less book keeping, less power. I can see why you'd want any or all of the three.
Fair in and of itself, but it's not the sorta thing I'd recommend to someone not explicitly seeking one of those things. And, honestly, it's not even something I tend to recommend in one of those cases. Shapeshift just doesn't interact all that well with stuff. It doesn't work well with spells, it doesn't work well with items, and it cuts off a lot of interesting options without providing new ones. Typically, I prefer to just point towards personally limiting your forms to a couple of great ones, or a couple of really good ones if power is the concern. Because, in the end, possibly the only really interesting thing you can say about shapeshift specific optimization is that you're going to wind up picking a lot more summoning and casting feats, because you're losing that whole swath of wild shape and animal companion feats without getting anything in return.

[Troacctid]

Shapeshift does go up in value when Natural Spell is unavailable, since you can easily switch forms, and it has the advantage of coming online at level 1, which is pretty relevant if you're starting at a lower level. And losing your items isn't actually THAT big a deal, since most of your items will be boosting your casting anyway, so you obviously won't need them in animal form.

Losing your animal companion is a pretty nasty drawback, though, and the fact that you need to actually care about your physical stats means you've suddenly gone from SAD to MAD. Furthermore, while you can switch back to human form at will, you can still only do it once per round, and you can't really do it from Aerial form unless your base form also has wings.

I played a one-shot as an 8th level shapeshifter. It was nice being able to switch between Ferocious Slayer and Aerial forms at will, but I spent a lot of time thinking "My spells are so great and I have so many of them. Why am I bothering with claw and bite attacks instead of casting a spell every round? This would be so much better if I just had Natural Spell, stayed in bat form the whole time, and had an animal companion to do the clawing and biting for me." (These thoughts were usually followed by, "And wow, I'm STILL carrying the entire party. Druids OP, nerf plz.")

[Psyren]

Do you know which rules are from PF and which are from 3.5? Many are the same, but some (like shapeshifting, and animal companions, and natural weapons, and several druid spells) are radically different.

[eggynack]

It was nice being able to switch between Ferocious Slayer and Aerial forms at will, but I spent a lot of time thinking "My spells are so great and I have so many of them. Why am I bothering with claw and bite attacks instead of casting a spell every round? This would be so much better if I just had Natural Spell, stayed in bat form the whole time, and had an animal companion to do the clawing and biting for me." (These thoughts were usually followed by, "And wow, I'm STILL carrying the entire party. Druids OP, nerf plz.")
I think this is a big part of the problem, that the things you're doing in a halfway efficient manner through the speedy nature of shapeshift aren't all that exciting. The primary reason aerial forms are sweet is because you can cast spells while you keep your distance, which obviates some of the advantage of pulling the same thing with shapeshift. And, the reason combat forms are sweet is because you can consume your opponent's face when you run low on spell resources, which means that you weren't gaining that big of an edge by being able to swap anyway.

So, they're on roughly the same plane in this natural spell lacking environment, with the defensive forms working mainly for utility and the combat forms coming online when spells run low, except standard wild shape does that combat thing a lot better. It's just significantly higher stats and better combat maneuvers for your ability dollar. And then you factor in the animal companion, and it feels like not-shapeshift shoots way ahead. It's definitely a more interesting comparison, pitting them against each other without natural spell, but I think standard druid still pulls ahead.

Incidentally, one option that might work better is aspect of the dragon (DrM, 11), which I think is still my favorite wild shape ACF. It gives abilities that are actually halfway unique, lasts longer than the similar aspect of nature, and seems to work fine with spells and items alike. It's not perfect by any means, but it's pretty good for these purposes. All this talk makes me kinda want to add a little "Living Without Natural Spell" section to the handbook, because the topic is rather complex.

[Troacctid]

In that game, if Natural Spell weren't an option and the animal companion weren't a factor, I would have been happier with shapeshift than with standard wildshape. Switching between forms tactically from round to round did actually come up. I could carry the party on my back as a bear, swift-action demorph to human and cast a spell, next round cast a spell and swift-action morph to eagle and fly to a higher elevation, etc. That wouldn't have been an option without shapeshifting, what with wild shape's standard-action activation time and limited daily uses.

[Daozi]

Is Surrogate Spellcasting also banned? You can take that plus Eschew Materials to effectively get Natural Spell for the cost of two feats. Not sure if getting around your DM's restriction in that way is what you want to do, just pointing it out. :)

As to eschew materials - this part is changed, and I think that for the better. So the idea is, that the party members can "buy" such ability (for XP) and put the components into a special focus - e.g.: amulet, staff, hat - even underwear, so there will be no material components anymore. IF this "focus" (this works like a typical spell focus but it's not exactly the same) is lost, then the character will be able to cast only using materials, unless he'd like to prepare new "focus".
Regular focuses (like mirror for scrying) will remain in place - these new "focuses" will work somehow like eschew materials.
In general - nature spell is banned so that it will be impossible to stay in a different form and cast any spells. Either you are a spellcater or a brown bear - but not both at the same time :)

[Daozi]

Do you know which rules are from PF and which are from 3.5? Many are the same, but some (like shapeshifting, and animal companions, and natural weapons, and several druid spells) are radically different.

So: spells (luckily) will be from 3.5 - few are banned though. Like venomfire from Serpent Kingdoms. Pity.
Shapeshifting comes from Pathfinder - so there is no possibility to be mega-tank when the druid regularly has like str. 14 and con 13 (for example).
Animal companions - as well, from pathfinder. That's why I'm almost sure that Tiger (Lion) would be quite fine here.
Also there is one important difference - DM told me yesterday about it - spells don't need to be prepared. It means, that the druid has the full list and can cast them like a sorcerer. Quite potent I assume. However - there are no clerics in the setting (atheism ftw :P), so druid needs to be a healer, at lest to some extent. Few unique clerics spell will be treated as arcane, also available for mages with limited access.
You see - DM has like 15 years of experience so he's experimetning a lot, guess that regular 3.5 is kinda boring for him yet :D

By the way - I'm not really convinced to scimitar or quarterstaff. Also armor - I'm not sure here what would be the best option. It means: shall I use a tiger as my "damage dealer" and stay away from the front; or invest in AC and buffs and attack as well?
You see - there is sort of hidden potential in feats / options / spells which, for a person who was before melee fighting only, is not easy to be found.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Shapeshift does go up in value when Natural Spell is unavailable, since you can easily switch forms, and it has the advantage of coming online at level 1, which is pretty relevant if you're starting at a lower level. And losing your items isn't actually THAT big a deal, since most of your items will be boosting your casting anyway, so you obviously won't need them in animal form.

Losing your animal companion is a pretty nasty drawback, though, and the fact that you need to actually care about your physical stats means you've suddenly gone from SAD to MAD. Furthermore, while you can switch back to human form at will, you can still only do it once per round, and you can't really do it from Aerial form unless your base form also has wings.

The problem is that losing your items is very much a big deal. Shapeshifter forms don't make up for losing your armor, your +Con item, your save increasers, your Necklace of Natural Attacks or your Monk's Belt. Basically the whole of the "List of necessary magic items" is stuff you can't use. No immunities that don't come from spells, no miss chances, no tactical teleportation.

And since you're not replacing your physical scores anymore you could greatly benefit from items that increase your strength and other items for melee characters, but you can't use them, ever. You also don't get iterative attacks, and any additional attacks you do get come later than usual and are limited to 3 at most.
You'd be a better melee combatant just swinging a quarterstaff around, and you're obviously not much of a spellcaster if you can't cast while using one of your primary features.
That only leaves utility, and you get that fine from normal WS while still retaining the ability to use Wilding Clasps.


Shapeshift takes one of the druids greatest strenghts, the synergy between its various aspects, and not only destroys it utterly, it also makes you worse at the only role that feature can perform (melee) than you'd be if you just gave up on Wild Shape without replacement. If you gave up the same features for the Druidic Avenger and Swift Hunter ACFs you'd actually be better at melee while still retaining unhindered casting.

The Shapeshifter ACF is like playing with Vow of Poverty, only without the bonuses that grants. In fact that's the only time i could see it actually being an option.
If it didn't also give up your animal companion that is.


So: spells (luckily) will be from 3.5.
Shapeshifting comes from Pathfinder
Animal companions - as well, from pathfinder.
druid has the full list and can cast them like a sorcerer.


From the way the options are laid out it seems quite clear that you'd benefit greatly from focusing on casting.
PF shapeshifting makes melee worse than in 3.5, and the animal companion becomes a little weaker too but it will still serve as a meat shield.
On the other hand the complete spontaneous access to the whole 3.5 druid list is incredibly powerful. Sure, you'll need to go through the spell list and pick out a few "go-to" spells, so it's more work than melee. But the payoff should be worth it.

[Psyren]

The problem is that losing your items is very much a big deal. Shapeshifter forms don't make up for losing your armor, your +Con item, your save increasers, your Necklace of Natural Attacks or your Monk's Belt. Basically the whole of the "List of necessary magic items" is stuff you can't use. No immunities that don't come from spells, no miss chances, no tactical teleportation.

And since you're not replacing your physical scores anymore you could greatly benefit from items that increase your strength and other items for melee characters, but you can't use them, ever. You also don't get iterative attacks, and any additional attacks you do get come later than usual and are limited to 3 at most.
You'd be a better melee combatant just swinging a quarterstaff around, and you're obviously not much of a spellcaster if you can't cast while using one of your primary features.
That only leaves utility, and you get that fine from normal WS while still retaining the ability to use Wilding Clasps.

PF shapeshifting is nerfed but it has its advantages too. For starters, almost all the items you listed will remain effective while he is shapeshifted in PF - his Con item, his save cloak, his necklace, his monk's belt etc. The only thing that will shut off is his armor; that's the only item he would need a clasp for. So there's no need to worry so much.



From the way the options are laid out it seems quite clear that you'd benefit greatly from focusing on casting.
PF shapeshifting makes melee worse than in 3.5, and the animal companion becomes a little weaker too but it will still serve as a meat shield.
On the other hand the complete spontaneous access to the whole 3.5 druid list is incredibly powerful. Sure, you'll need to go through the spell list and pick out a few "go-to" spells, so it's more work than melee. But the payoff should be worth it.

I definitely agree here, if you have spontaneous access to the entire druid list then being a primary caster is the way to go.


So: spells (luckily) will be from 3.5 - few are banned though. Like venomfire from Serpent Kingdoms. Pity.
Shapeshifting comes from Pathfinder - so there is no possibility to be mega-tank when the druid regularly has like str. 14 and con 13 (for example).
Animal companions - as well, from pathfinder. That's why I'm almost sure that Tiger (Lion) would be quite fine here.
Also there is one important difference - DM told me yesterday about it - spells don't need to be prepared. It means, that the druid has the full list and can cast them like a sorcerer. Quite potent I assume. However - there are no clerics in the setting (atheism ftw :P), so druid needs to be a healer, at lest to some extent. Few unique clerics spell will be treated as arcane, also available for mages with limited access.

There's still a lot of unanswered variables here though. Which rules for natural attacks are you using, 3.5 or PF? It matters a great deal, not just for your own feats but those of your animal companion. Can your druid get a domain like the PF one, and if so can you spontaneously cast from that? Can you take 3.5 ACFs or PF archetypes? Can you PrC? (The only ones likely to be worth it are Planar Shepherd and Evangelist, but still.) Which edition are items coming from/



By the way - I'm not really convinced to scimitar or quarterstaff. Also armor - I'm not sure here what would be the best option. It means: shall I use a tiger as my "damage dealer" and stay away from the front; or invest in AC and buffs and attack as well?
You see - there is sort of hidden potential in feats / options / spells which, for a person who was before melee fighting only, is not easy to be found.

This is entirely up to you and how you feel like playing - both routes are viable so you have to make the decision on your own.

[sleepyphoenixx]

PF shapeshifting is nerfed but it has its advantages too. For starters, almost all the items you listed will remain effective while he is shapeshifted in PF - his Con item, his save cloak, his necklace, his monk's belt etc. The only thing that will shut off is his armor; that's the only item he would need a clasp for. So there's no need to worry so much.
The quoted section refers entirely to the 3.5 Shapeshifter ACF from PHB 2.

I'm honestly pretty neutral towards PF Wild Shape. It's not as strong as the 3.5 version, but it's also not hugely crippling (unlike the ACF).
They were trying to improve balance, and starting there is better than nerfing casting imo. They just didn't follow through for the rest of the T1 crowd, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.



There's still a lot of unanswered variables here though. Which rules for natural attacks are you using, 3.5 or PF? It matters a great deal, not just for your own feats but those of your animal companion. Can your druid get a domain like the PF one, and if so can you spontaneously cast from that? Can you take 3.5 ACFs or PF archetypes? Can you PrC? (The only ones likely to be worth it are Planar Shepherd and Evangelist, but still.) Which edition are items coming from?

Some good points here, though i'd say that Lion of Talisid is worth taking too if you want to get Exalted Companion anyway. IIRC PF has a feat that lets you make up the loss of 2 wild shape levels, and that's pretty much the only downside aside from the alignment requirement.
Losing Venom Immunity, A thousand faces and Timeless Body in exchange for Fear Immunity, Scent, Pounce and no-action Haste is a pretty decent trade.

Still, the way the editions are mixed hugely favors the casting side. The only reason not to focus on that is if you're afraid to overshadow the rest of the party, which isn't unlikely with the full might of the 3.5 druid list at your fingertips.
If wizards function the same way going for Arcane Hierophant may actually be the best option, especially if you're allowed early entry (and so lose only a single druid level in exchange for, at least, 6th level wizard spells).

[Psyren]

The quoted section refers entirely to the 3.5 Shapeshifter ACF from PHB 2.

Right, but he's using PF shapeshifting rules underneath that, which mean his "constant-effect" items don't get suppressed.

This is one of the issues with 3.P games, they can vary so widely in terms of how things work that you need specifics to give any meaningful advice.

[Daozi]

There's still a lot of unanswered variables here though. Which rules for natural attacks are you using, 3.5 or PF? It matters a great deal, not just for your own feats but those of your animal companion. Can your druid get a domain like the PF one, and if so can you spontaneously cast from that? Can you take 3.5 ACFs or PF archetypes? Can you PrC? (The only ones likely to be worth it are Planar Shepherd and Evangelist, but still.) Which edition are items coming from/.

So: natural attacks will be as in PF. Domain can be taken and knowing the DM's approach, they will be cast spontaneously as the rest of spells. E.g.: wizard is casting spontaneously as well, but all her new spells are pretty expensive and there are some limitations for some schools. For a wizard there are enough limits here, so that she will struggle :) For a druid - even though I'm not experienced spellcaster - I see, that potential is huge.
Anyway; domain costs the animal companion. As yet, there is only one frontman (warrior) so I think, that meatshield (companion) might be useful.
PrC - yes, available. When I was a DM plane shepherd was banned because you can do insane things with it, here it is allowed but... I don't want to be a munchkin for the other party members. It is still a fun-game after all ;)
Personally I'm not a big PrC fan. That's also why I wan't to play as a druid - I assume, that without PrC he can be good enough character to play. And that's quite important as the campaign may take even 2 years...
Oh, and for the items - MiC mostly. So 3.5 edition, but I guess few items can be changed or banned - which will be individually decided by DM.
Racial traits comes from PF.