How Good is Frostbite?

[Strill]

For most casters, your cantrip damage is negligible compared to the damage of martials, so it's usually much more productive to pick a cantrip with an extra effect, because the damage loss is relatively small compared to your party's overall damage.

This would make Frostbite seem really good, because Disadvantage, even on just one attack, is almost certainly worth the small amount of damage you're giving up.

But with the CON save, and the fact that it doesn't work against spell attacks, is it really all that great? I'm getting the impression that you'll eventually reach the point where your chance to hit with this cantrip is just too low to bother with, and, disadvantage or not, if it can't actually hit anything, you're better off with almost anything else.

[hymer]

I've picked it for a land druid (more for thematic reasons, really), and so far it's working out fine - though this is pretty low level still. If I want to deal damage with my action, I shoot a bow at them, but if I'm just backing up the melee, I'd rather give them a little help.
It seems to me that Frostbite can be a supplement to another, more dependable, attack cantrip. If you won't metagame with your targeting, I can see why you'd be wasting actions here. Otherwise, I think it's pretty decent as druid cantrips go (and the range is good). But I can see how people with access to better attack cantrips than the druid list offers would be hesitant to pick Frostbite.

[JellyPooga]

For me, the only damage Cantrips worth taking are those that don't require a Save. Save DC's are shockingly low in 5ed (maxed out at 19 with a 20 in your casting stat and +6 proficiency bonus), as compared to a potential +11 to hit with a spell attack, which will reliably hit AC:21. Given that the highest AC in the MM is 23 (if I'm not mistaken), your odds of getting a "hit" is greater with a spell attack than a "Save vs." spell, with none of the "save for half" that many damage dealing spells of 1st or higher have to balance it.

For instance; Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp are good damage Cantrips, because they each have a niche opponent they excel against (Undead and metal-wearers, respectively) to balance their lower damage compared to Fire Bolt or Eldritch Blast.

Acid Splash and Poison Spray, on the other hand, have little in the way of incentive; one does much less damage to multiple targets, the other slightly higher damage of a commonly resisted type. Neither does anything if your opponent makes his Save; something that likely has a greater incidence than missing with a spell attack.

As for Frostbite, the Disadvantage is nice, but it's a Con Save as you say; one of the commonly higher Saves in the game. Make the Save, nothing happens. If it granted Advantage to an ally, instead of imposing Disadvantage, I'd consider it more than a worthy Cantrip (probably too much so) for the utility of double-teaming with a Rogue or similar big-hitter. The damage is very low, too. Personally, I'd give it a miss.

[hymer]

Con is definitely one of the poorest stats to target (possibly the very poorest on average), I agree there. But we'd have to go through the monster stats and compare Con save to AC to make a clear determination. +0 con save is as easy to land as an attack vs. AC 12, +1 con as AC 13, etc. Right?* My gut math response is that Con is a stat, and advances as stats do, getting gradually higher on average as CR goes up. So does Dex. But so does contribution to AC from other sources than stats - meaning AC in total may rise faster than Con.
I know my gut isn't entirely correct here, as Dex tends to grow slower than Con (not having gone through the book, this is a guesstimation).
I have to go now, but maybe I can find some time to do a study on this later, if nobody else cares to.

Edit: Wrong. Con save +0 is equal to AC 13 14, and so on.

[Strill]

+0 con save is as easy to land as an attack vs. AC 12, +1 con as AC 13, etc. Right?At the start, hypothetically yes. But once you get your hands on a Wand of the War Mage, AC becomes much easier to target.

[TopCheese]

For me, the only damage Cantrips worth taking are those that don't require a Save. Save DC's are shockingly low in 5ed (maxed out at 19 with a 20 in your casting stat and +6 proficiency bonus), as compared to a potential +11 to hit with a spell attack, which will reliably hit AC:21. Given that the highest AC in the MM is 23 (if I'm not mistaken), your odds of getting a "hit" is greater with a spell attack than a "Save vs." spell, with none of the "save for half" that many damage dealing spells of 1st or higher have to balance it.

For instance; Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp are good damage Cantrips, because they each have a niche opponent they excel against (Undead and metal-wearers, respectively) to balance their lower damage compared to Fire Bolt or Eldritch Blast.

Acid Splash and Poison Spray, on the other hand, have little in the way of incentive; one does much less damage to multiple targets, the other slightly higher damage of a commonly resisted type. Neither does anything if your opponent makes his Save; something that likely has a greater incidence than missing with a spell attack.

As for Frostbite, the Disadvantage is nice, but it's a Con Save as you say; one of the commonly higher Saves in the game. Make the Save, nothing happens. If it granted Advantage to an ally, instead of imposing Disadvantage, I'd consider it more than a worthy Cantrip (probably too much so) for the utility of double-teaming with a Rogue or similar big-hitter. The damage is very low, too. Personally, I'd give it a miss.

This is false.

Save DCs look low, when compared to 3e, but are in fact not that low.

They start off around 13 and raise to 19, however targets dont always have A big modifier and targets dont always get their proficiency bonus. This is huge as if you have two or three attack cantrips (where the sorcerer excels I guess) you target big things with Dex save cantrips and Small things with Con save cantrips.

You can't base how big a number is without taking into account the system math. Comparing it to a number outside the system does no good.

Edit

Goblin
AC: 15
Str save: -1
Dex save: +2
Con Save: +0

With a bonus of +5 to your roll (typical average for first level) you need a 10 to hit his AC. However using thunderclap the goblin must roll a 14. With frostbite the goblin has to roll a 13.

You have a better chance of hitting with thunderclap or frostbite than you do hitting with an attack.

Now you can get advantage which helps but typically going off what you can do your saving throws will be high enough.

I'm not saying saves are always the best choice but they are a good choice.

[JellyPooga]

This is false.

Compare "Attack vs. AC" to "Save vs. Save DC"

Attack vs. AC: Attack modifiers will range anywhere from +3 to +11, depending on level and Ability Scores. Highest AC in MM is 23.

Save vs. Save DC: Saving throws have the same maximum as Attack modifiers, albeit with a lower floor, but the target caps out at 19.

"Save vs. Effect" spells have a lower chance of success if it's a Save-for-Nothing effect, assuming you target a Proficient Save. Against non-Proficient Saves, the numbers are better, but I'm not sure they're better than an Attack spell.

I might have mentioned 3ed, but my comparison was between the 5ed figures :smallwink:

[TopCheese]

Compare "Attack vs. AC" to "Save vs. Save DC"

Attack vs. AC: Attack modifiers will range anywhere from +3 to +11, depending on level and Ability Scores. Highest AC in MM is 23.

Save vs. Save DC: Saving throws have the same maximum as Attack modifiers, albeit with a lower floor, but the target caps out at 19.

"Save vs. Effect" spells have a lower chance of success if it's a Save-for-Nothing effect, assuming you target a Proficient Save. Against non-Proficient Saves, the numbers are better, but I'm not sure they're better than an Attack spell.

I might have mentioned 3ed, but my comparison was between the 5ed figures :smallwink:

Saves are harder to pass. Not only do you get to cherry pick the defense but enemies do not gain the defenses to keep up.

The only way to say your DC is low is to compare it to another game that has simular system where your DC would be low (3e).

Otherwise your DC is not low because of monster saves and cherry picking what they use.

[JellyPooga]

Saves are harder to pass. Not only do you get to cherry pick the defense but enemies do not gain the defenses to keep up.

You only get to cherry pick the defence if you've got multiple Save spells that target different Ability Scores. Frostbite, alone, only lets you target Con. Taking multiple Cantrips to be able to "cherry pick" eats into your utility slots.

[CNagy]

I don't know about you, but I always have more cantrips than, strictly speaking, I need. All full casters get 4, 5, or 6 cantrips eventually. MC-casters get so many cantrips that it is a non-issue.

And saving throws are seriously much harder to pass this time around. Casting a spell (cantrip or otherwise) won't always be the best option, but with the right target save more often than not it will be as easy to hit with or easier than an attack option.

[Strill]

I don't know about you, but I always have more cantrips than, strictly speaking, I need. All full casters get 4, 5, or 6 cantrips eventually. MC-casters get so many cantrips that it is a non-issue.

And saving throws are seriously much harder to pass this time around. Casting a spell (cantrip or otherwise) won't always be the best option, but with the right target save more often than not it will be as easy to hit with or easier than an attack option.

5 cantrips at level 10. Before then, that's only enough for two utility cantrips and two damage cantrips.

[hymer]

At the start, hypothetically yes. But once you get your hands on a Wand of the War Mage, AC becomes much easier to target.

Why only hypethetically?
As for the wand, well, that seems to be rather table specific. If you do get a staff or wand that only affects attack rolls, rather than a robe of the arch magi that affects both, sure. Or if you get both. But then you need to worry about drowning in the tears of the melee. :smalltongue:

Having looked at the first 30 stat blocks in the MM (up to and including Cockatrice), the average has to-hit at a .6 on d20 advantage over Con saves. There's something substantial to gain in picking the right choice in a few examples (Planetar Deva should have their AC targeted at 6 points advantage, and Animated Armor should have their save targeted at an advantage of 4, as two extremes). Other than that, 22 out of 30 are within 2 points of parity.

[Strill]

Why only hypethetically?Because I'm assuming that saving throws progress at the same rate as AC, but I don't really know.

As for the wand, well, that seems to be rather table specific. If you do get a staff or wand that only affects attack rolls, rather than a robe of the arch magi that affects both, sure. Or if you get both. But then you need to worry about drowning in the tears of the melee. :smalltongue:

Having looked at the first 30 stat blocks in the MM (up to and including Cockatrice), the average has to-hit at a .6 on d20 advantage over Con saves. There's something substantial to gain in picking the right choice in a few examples (Planetar Deva should have their AC targeted at 6 points advantage, and Animated Armor should have their save targeted at an advantage of 4, as two extremes). Other than that, 22 out of 30 are within 2 points of parity.Robe of the Archmagi and Rod of the Pact Keeper are the only items in the entire book that affect spell DCs.

[hymer]

Because I'm assuming that saving throws progress at the same rate as AC, but I don't really know.

Neither do I. But from the limited sample I jotted down, I see no correlation between CR and which defence is best targeted of those two. I consider that a point in favour of Frostbite (at least for druids), wands and staffs notwithstanding.


Robe of the Archmagi and Rod of the Pact Keeper are the only items in the entire book that affect spell DCs.

Interesting. There's also an Ioun Stone ('Mastery' I think) that increases Proficiency Bonus by one, which is a nice one for spellcasters, too. Though it affects attack rolls just as well as save DCs, of course.

[Strill]

Edit: Wrong. Con save +0 is equal to AC 13, and so on.

No, I just ran the numbers and +0 con save is equal to AC14.

Chance to hit = (20 - AC + 1 + proficiency + casting mod) / 20
Chance to FAIL a save = (DC - 1 - proficiency - save mod) / 20

Assuming a proficiency bonus of +2, +0 for all ability mods, and no save proficiency:

Chance to hit AC14: (20 - 14 + 1 + proficiency + casting mod) / 20 = 45%
Chance to fail DC10: (10 - 1 - proficiency - save mod) / 20 = 45%

---------------

EDIT: This is really confusing actually. The Unearthed Arcana (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA5_VariantRules.pdf) recommends that if you want to convert a saving throw bonus to an equivalent AC, you should add 11, not 14. This can't be right. Have I made a mistake here?

[Tanarii]

Your error is in assuming save mod = casting mod. I'm also assuming "proficiency" in the save line is the monster being proficient in the save, which is by no means a given.

Another way of looking at it is that Unearthed Arcana is telling you that on average, caster proficiency + stat bonus is 3 points higher than monster saves.

[Strill]

Your error is in assuming save mod = casting mod.I don't. My comparison still works even if they're different. For example, with +0 save mod, and +3 casting mod, the comparison becomes:

Chance to hit AC14: (20 - 14 + 1 + proficiency + casting mod) / 20 = 60%
Chance to fail save+0: (13(spell DC) - 1 - proficiency - save mod) / 20 = 60%

AC14 is still equivalent to a +0 save bonus.


I'm also assuming "proficiency" in the save line is the monster being proficient in the save, which is by no means a given.Exactly. Which is why I didn't include it in my calculations.

[Alerad]

I don't. My comparison still works even if they're different. For example, with +0 save mod, and +3 casting mod, the comparison becomes:

Chance to hit AC14: (20 - 14 + 1 + proficiency + casting mod) / 20 = 60%
Chance to fail save+0: (13(spell DC) - 1 - proficiency - save mod) / 20 = 60%

AC14 is still equivalent to a +0 save bonus.

Exactly. Which is why I didn't include it in my calculations.

The math is correct. Assuming a level 1 caster who can easily have +5 spell attack and spell DC 13, the chance to hit AC 14 is 60%, as is the chance to "hit" a creature which has saving throw bonus of +0. From here, since your attack and spell DC increase at the same rate we can safely assume AC 14 equals Save +0.

So an AC 20 is the same as Save +6 in terms of what are your chances to hit.

Looking at the MM, all Dragons, Demons and Devils are proficient with many Saves. Best case scenario, you have equal chances to hit a dragon's AC or Dex Save, but your chances to hit its Con Save are about 25-30% lower. With Devils it's even worse, since many have magic resistance.

Con save seems to be most common. Enemies either have high Con mod or proficiency with the Con Save. If you bet on saves, Int seems to be your best choice.

The few cases where targeting AC is worse than forcing a Save are usually goblins, kobolds and such low level enemies.

Of course enemies with proficiency in all 6 saves are rare, but even a modifier of +5 makes them as hard to hit as AC 19.

Hmm, I thought Save mechanic is better, but after seeing the math it doesn't seems so. Still, for spells Save or die (which are fewer) it's ok I think, but for simple damaging spells hitting AC seems much better mechanical choice.

[bid]

A level 1 character casting a ranged spell needs 8+ to hit {8 + 2 + 3 = 13 vs AC 13 = 10 + 3} [7/20 miss = 13/20 hit]
But it it casts a Dex save spell, the falcon will need 10+ to not be affected {10 + 0 + 3 = 13 vs DC 13 = 8 + 2 + 3} [11/20 save = 9/20 hit]

It is as if its "Dex spell AC" was 17, 4 points higher.


If you do the same with a level 20, ranged spell has 19/20 while Dex save spell has 15/20. The 4 point penalty is always there.


Instead of DM rolling saves, you could have players rolling hits vs "spell AC" of 14 + proficiency + mod.


So yeah, 14 it is.

[coredump]

If you are down to casting cantrips at an adult/ancient dragon, or some Arch-type demon.... you have bigger problems.

Cantrips are not for the Big Boss fight.

[PoeticDwarf]

Frostbite is a decent cantrip, decent damage type, under average damage but a nice effect. I'd say that it is good to have if you also have a d10 (or d8) damage cantrip. Eldritsch blast, firebolt, shocking grasp, chill touch. It all are nice damage cantrips with only eldritsch blast better than the others (even without warlock). Frostbite is just a cool and decent cantrip you can choose with another one.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I prefer Eldritch Blast to Frostbite, but I sometimes use the Elemental Bane spell (cold version) to pump up damage from other cold spells. When I'm doing that, it's sometimes worth switching to Frostbite since Elemental Bane stacks an extra 2d6 cold damage onto it.

[hymer]

No, I just ran the numbers and +0 con save is equal to AC14.

Have I made a mistake here?

No, I agree with your math, and I'll re-edit to compensate. :smallsmile:

[TopCheese]

If you are down to casting cantrips at an adult/ancient dragon, or some Arch-type demon.... you have bigger problems.

Cantrips are not for the Big Boss fight.

Against boss fights cantrips are what you rely on while waiting to set up your other spells.

4d6 + Cha (or Int) damage + Nice Rider isn't bad for an action.

Cantrips + Deception = Boss that thinks you have no spells left... ;)

[Tanarii]

I don't. My comparison still works even if they're different. For example, with +0 save mod, and +3 casting mod, the comparison becomes:

Chance to hit AC14: (20 - 14 + 1 + proficiency + casting mod) / 20 = 60%
Chance to fail save+0: (13(spell DC) - 1 - proficiency - save mod) / 20 = 60%

AC14 is still equivalent to a +0 save bonus.sorry you are exactly correct. A better way to put it would be:
%hit = 21 - AC + CasterProf + CasterMod
%hit = 7 + CasterProf + CasterMod - SaveProf - SaveMod

If you set the two equal you get
7 + CasterProf + CasterMod - SaveProf - SaveMod = 21 - AC + CasterProf + CasterMod
7 + - SaveProf - SaveMod = 21 - AC
AC = 14 + SaveProf + SaveMod

The UA variant rule is flat bad math and giving the player +3 to hit.

[SharkForce]

Robe of the Archmagi and Rod of the Pact Keeper are the only items in the entire book that affect spell DCs.

minor correction: staff of the magi, and the ioun stone that increases your proficiency bonus, and the books that increase spellcasting stat as well as the cap also increase spell DCs.

also, they're ludicrously powerful if you get them, provided you make the effort to target an enemy's weak saves. they can even put the enemy off the d20 if you can target a really bad one.

[Strill]

minor correction: staff of the magi, and the ioun stone that increases your proficiency bonus, and the books that increase spellcasting stat as well as the cap also increase spell DCs.Staff of the Magi does not increase your spell save DC.

[SharkForce]

Staff of the Magi does not increase your spell save DC.

huh. fair enough. i could've swore it did. the other things do though.

[Hawkstar]

You only get to cherry pick the defence if you've got multiple Save spells that target different Ability Scores. Frostbite, alone, only lets you target Con. Taking multiple Cantrips to be able to "cherry pick" eats into your utility slots.

Constitution is also never a Primary Attribute - it's only a secondary at best, and usually a Tertiary (Though never a dump stat). Also - while PCs tend to value con, monsters get by with lower con and extra HD.

[hymer]

monsters get by with lower con and extra HD.

Theoretically true. But looking through the MM, there is a definite dearth of low-con monsters, particularly among those who suffer from disadvantage on their weapon attack rolls. My hunch is that Con is, on average, the worst defence to target. It's probably intentional, considering how well disadvantage on attack rolls scale with what you're fighting.

[Dark Schneider]

Hi, sorry for refreshing this old topic, but we begin with D&D 5E now.

I had my doubts about Frostbite, but then noticed it can be a great cantrip under some conditions: for evocators and better with Elemental Bane spell prepared.

Evocator:
- Potent cantrip, as it is a saving throw cantrip, you always does damage, at least half.
- Empowered evocation: add you INT modifier to damage, a fixed value instead a rolling one.
Elemental Bane: add 2d6 of cold damage per turn.

Combine both:
- Evocator lvl 6: always doing half 2d6 cold damage. Very good also for disturbing other casters concentration.
- Evocator lvl 7: if affected by Elemental Bane, always doing 3d6 cold damage to target for sure, and if fails the CON saving throw, add 1d6 cold damage and 1 weapon attack with disadvantage. On each round! up to Elemental Bane duration.
- Evocator lvl 10: add INT modifier to previous.
- Evocator lvl 11: if affected by Elemental Bane, always doing (3d6 + INT) / 2 + 2d6 cold damage to target for sure, and if fails the CON saving throw, add (3d6 + INT) / 2 cold damage and 1 weapon attack with disadvantage. On each round! up to Elemental Bane duration.

There are no many evocation elemental cantrips with a decent range I think. So IMHO using d6 instead a better one is worth for evocators for the other benefits. If not evocator, you probably should go for Toll the Dead that uses d8-d12 (more d12, and uses WIS for saving throw) or acid splash to hit 2 targets when possible, or some other, or even an attack one like Ray of Frost because without potent cantrip is not sure you will hit with any cantrip. I personally would go for Toll the Dead because damage and uses WIS for saving, but with another one because against undeads probably will have resistance or even immunity against necrotic damage many of them.

With only 1 attack cantrip is not possible to avoid resistances/immunities I think. For an evocator, I would go for Fire Bolt + Frostbite combo, 1 attack and 1 saving (potent cantrip) cantrip, both evocation (empowered evocation), and opposite elements (resistance/immunity).

[Specter]

It's good, because not only you are dealing damage, but helping others keep their HP. But you need to choose your target well: against a physically strong monster, it's usually a waste.

Also it should be noted that it's a must for Evokers, since it's the only cantrip that benefita from their level 6 and 10 abilities.

[Mr.Spastic]

EDIT: This is really confusing actually. The Unearthed Arcana (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA5_VariantRules.pdf) recommends that if you want to convert a saving throw bonus to an equivalent AC, you should add 11, not 14. This can't be right. Have I made a mistake here?

You add 11 because in order for them to fail they have to get lower than the save number. If an enemy has con +3 the comparative ac is 14 because meeting a save passes, where as meeting ac hits with an attack.