Disciple of the sun rebuke variant

[Crake]

So disciple of the sun requires that you can "turn or rebuke" undead, and have a good alignment. Normally this would be impossible for a cleric to achieve, rebuking and being good, however a dread necromancer can have both. Since rebuking says "those that would be destroyed are commanded" does this mean that a dread necromancer using this ability to rebuke would instead command the undead? No longer a topic of this thread.

What about removing the alignment requirement and letting evil clerics use it to command undead in a similar manner? For argument's sake, assume that the feat would function for rebuking as it does for turning, allowing them to command.

[DarkOne-Rob]

Unless you discard alignment requirements for base classes, I do not think the Dread Necromancer can be good-aligned. I am away from books so I cannot check right now, but that would prevent this from working.

[Crake]

Unless you discard alignment requirements for base classes, I do not think the Dread Necromancer can be good-aligned. I am away from books so I cannot check right now, but that would prevent this from working.

There's the alignment section that says "No dread necromancer can have a good alignment", however that isn't actually listed as a class requirement like it is for other classes, more just a statement that creating undead is evil. However, you can be a dread necromancer and simply utilize negative energy (which in and of itself is not inherently evil), without performing the evil acts it says, so it seems more like the authors personal interpretation of "what is evil" rather than a hard and fast requirement. There's also no rules for later becoming good, no falling rules, no ex-dread necromancers, so it's clearly not a requirement of the class, just the assumption that the dread necromancer cannot be good because it's class features are evil.

But in a world where creating undead in and of itself is not evil, or a dread necromancer who does not utilize the evil parts of the class, most definitely could be good.

That aside, what about removing the alignment requirement and allowing the feat to function for all kinds of clerics?

[zergling.exe]

You would destroy the undead regardless of whether you qualify by having turning or rebuking. There is no allowance by RAW to allow you to command them.

Getting rid of the Good requirement would help Clerics of the Burning Hate.

Disciple of the Sun: For when the Sun domains granted power just isn't enough, burn those undead with righteous Light!

[Crake]

You would destroy the undead regardless of whether you qualify by having turning or rebuking. There is no allowance by RAW to allow you to command them.

Getting rid of the Good requirement would help Clerics of the Burning Hate.

Disciple of the Sun: For when the Sun domains granted power just isn't enough, burn those undead with righteous Light!

for argument's sake, let's assume that using this new hypothetical feat would allow a cleric using rebuke to command the undead.

[Blackhawk748]

for argument's sake, let's assume that using this new hypothetical feat would allow a cleric using rebuke to command the undead.

It would be an Auto Include in any DN build i make from now on. Seriously that would be awesome.

[Fouredged Sword]

I don't think it works. The text of Disciple of the Sun specifies Turn Undead specifically. As a Dread Necro, you rebuke undead. This is a different thing. You cannot spend two rebuke undead attempts because the feat makes no reference to rebuke undead. You can take the feat as a good dread necro, but it does not function in combination with rebuke undead.

Text of the feat
"You may spend two turn undead attempts when you turn undead instead of one. If you do then you get destroy the undead instead of turning them."

[Crake]

I don't think it works. The text of Disciple of the Sun specifies Turn Undead specifically. As a Dread Necro, you rebuke undead. This is a different thing. You cannot spend two rebuke undead attempts because the feat makes no reference to rebuke undead. You can take the feat as a good dread necro, but it does not function in combination with rebuke undead.

Text of the feat
"You may spend two turn undead attempts when you turn undead instead of one. If you do then you get destroy the undead instead of turning them."

The thread has left the argument of whether or not it would work, and onto whether homebrewing a version that works for both sides would be too powerful or not. Please keep on topic thanks

[weckar]

The thread has left the argument of whether or not it would work, and onto whether homebrewing a version that works for both sides would be too powerful or not. Please keep on topic thanksSays the guy who changed the topic.

As to allowing Rebuke to become Command.... I always felt that was what it was meant to be anyway....

[Fouredged Sword]

Eh, there are tricks to allow you to rebuke higher HD targets anyway. It would keep rebuke useful for high levels. Beware of leadership like silliness of templates like Lich and Vampire, basically allowing you to rebuke yourself into having two characters. Restricting them to half HD prevented this.

[Crake]

Says the guy who changed the topic.

As to allowing Rebuke to become Command.... I always felt that was what it was meant to be anyway....

To be fair, anyone who read the unchanged line in the OP that was changed before he posted it that said "For argument's sake, assume that the feat would function for rebuking as it does for turning, allowing them to command" or all the posts up to that point would have known that already. I edited the OP to prevent more people popping in and posting before properly reading the whole thing.


Eh, there are tricks to allow you to rebuke higher HD targets anyway. It would keep rebuke useful for high levels. Beware of leadership like silliness of templates like Lich and Vampire, basically allowing you to rebuke yourself into having two characters. Restricting them to half HD prevented this.

Most vampires and liches (at least the ones I run) have turn resistance out the ass to prevent themselves just being dusted (or commanded in this case) by high level clerics. And as it would seem, many items out there that apply to turning do not also apply to rebuking, which is a balancing factor in and of itself.

Perhaps adding a clause to this feat saying that controlling undead with class levels is limited to cleric level -2? (only when using this feat to control, if you're able to rebuke and control it normally then that still works)

[Fouredged Sword]

To be fair, anyone who read the unchanged line in the OP that was changed before he posted it that said "For argument's sake, assume that the feat would function for rebuking as it does for turning, allowing them to command" or all the posts up to that point would have known that already. I edited the OP to prevent more people popping in and posting before properly reading the whole thing.



Most vampires and liches (at least the ones I run) have turn resistance out the ass to prevent themselves just being dusted (or commanded in this case) by high level clerics. And as it would seem, many items out there that apply to turning do not also apply to rebuking, which is a balancing factor in and of itself.

Perhaps adding a clause to this feat saying that controlling undead with class levels is limited to cleric level -2? (only when using this feat to control, if you're able to rebuke and control it normally then that still works)

I would think a feat doing the following would do closer to what you want without it being a crazy overpowered feat.


Feat - Grave Resonance

Requirements - Rebuke Undead, non-good.

You resonate with mindless undead when rebuking. You can rebuke mindless undead as if they had half their HD. Mindless undead count as half their HD when determining the total number of undead you can control at once.