Gamer Humor Succubi: Dos and Don'ts [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

ThinkMinty

2015-09-25, 07:35 AM

The Succubus is a staple of fantasy, likely due to their charms, demonic powers, and general disregard for clothing.

So...thoughts on Succubi (and Incubi, for that matter), people? Clichés, stereotypes, funny anecdotes, stuff you think is kinda cool, etc?

I'm personally wondering if pointy ears are required, or just kinda cool/cute looking. Some of the art seems to give them the elven ear, other art doesn't.

EDIT: I forgot to provide enough context to the specific nature of my inquiry, so I will do that now.

Don't blindly assume that the D&D 3.5 edition succubus is the only way to evoke playing a succubus.

I'm workin' on a Succubus character (and the setting's 'cubi as a whole) for a writin' project.

Here's the basics of how they work in-setting.

>They have a pair of flight-capable wings they can hide/unhide at-will. Mostly for design/convenience reasons.
>They have horns and a prehensile tail. They cannot hide these at will.
>Their fingernails are tough enough that they can be sharpened into claws if they want to have claws.
>They can drain the mana/life energy of others using their tongue.
>They have twice/double the strength someone of their relative musculature would naturally have. This is a supernatural ability.
>They're generally quite good-looking.
>They're Fey creatures because I don't have Demons; I just don't have Demons, or at the very least there's no Hell/Abyss or Afterlife structure of any kind in play.
>Due to the artwork of Coop being really nifty, the're RED.
>Besides their natural abilities, they gotta learn magic like anyone else.

I toned their natural abilities for...balance reasons, I guess. Any commentary on the listed stuff would be helpful.

Anonymouswizard

2015-09-25, 08:48 AM

DO remember that much of what goes for female drow goes for you.

DO remember that 'white girl with blonde hair, blue eyes, and a great rack' is not the best form for every seduction.

DO wear things that aren't a bikini or Jessica Rabbit dress.

DON'T sleep with everything you see.

DON'T send incubi after every priestess you meet.

Geddy2112

2015-09-25, 09:01 AM

DOBe professional. Succubi and incubi should carry themselves with a level of class. Even if you are trying to seduce a member of the party, remember that it is business.

DO Be mostly upfront and honest. Players and characters are going to distrust you for being a demon, succubi, etc. Gain their trust, it will be easier to get what you want.

DON'TCollect up front. Draining life, energy, stats, what have you right away is poor form, and might get you killed. Let them enjoy their "gift" before you take them for everything they have. They are mortal, you are not. Take your time.

Ninja_Prawn

2015-09-25, 09:12 AM

I'm planning to include an incubus as an NPC in a game I'm running at the moment, so I'll be paying close attention to this thread!

I'm personally wondering if pointy ears are required, or just kinda cool/cute looking. Some of the art seems to give them the elven ear, other art doesn't.

They're shapeshifters, darling. They can change their ear shape whenever they like. Personally, I imagine they'd default to human-like ears, but really it's academic.

goto124

2015-09-25, 09:15 AM

DO remember that 'white girl with blonde hair, blue eyes, and a great rack' is not the best form for every seduction.

DO wear things that aren't a bikini or Jessica Rabbit dress.

DO switch clothes and body types up every once a while, to keep things interesting. Heck, if the succubus is a shapeshifter, why not try a male body? Different races/species?

Where's the relevant OotS comic strip?

Malak'ai

2015-09-25, 09:22 AM

DO remember that Succubi are infiltrators or Overseers of lesser demons, not warriors.

DO remember you're not just a lust filled vessel, you have a mind! Use it.

DON'T stick around if you're discovered.

TheCountAlucard

2015-09-25, 09:48 AM

Don't be a misogynist or misandrist caricature.

Do put some thought into the tropes surrounding incubi and succubi and be willing to play with them.

Don't blindly assume that the D&D 3.5 edition succubus is the only way to evoke playing a succubus.

Do communicate openly with the other players to help establish firm boundaries about what's acceptable, so as to prevent accidentally setting off a trigger.

Don't be afraid to get into some sexy, zany misadventures.

Do be willing to share the spotlight, though. You don't have to be an incubus to be sexy. :smallsmile:

Solaris

2015-09-25, 09:57 AM

DON'T default to 'sex' when trying to exploit others' lust. Adventurers tend to lust far more for blood, gold, and power, and adventurers are far more valuable souls to collect than your average oversexed teenager.

DON'T be chaotic stupid. You're a lover, not a fighter, and there are entire classes/societies/religions built around eradicating your kind. Nothing draws attention like wanton murder, even if you think it'd be funny to start a wightocalypse after a record-setting... 'night on the town'.

DO have guises other than a busty porn starlet. Everyone expects that, and it's practically begging to get smited. Instead, think about a more sensibly-clothed female, male, or even child form. Cute and unassuming gets you farther than overtly sexy.

DO learn the weaknesses, drives, and desires of those around you. You're a superhumanly charismatic creature, getting people to open up to you should be ridiculously easy... unless you're looking and acting like you're in a Brazzers video, in which case most people are just going to be repelled. Pretend some vulnerability of your own, and you'll gather their secrets and weaknesses like a carcass gathers flies. Learning what they want is crucial to giving them what they want, and how are you going to harvest their souls if you don't offer them their greatest desire?

DO get in good with the forces of good.
Sometimes, you just have to take one for the team. You're a succubus, you should be used to that. In this case, however, it's decidedly less fun - doing good deeds and generally proving yourself decent and helpful, at least in public, makes it easier to do what you really want to do without the nearest paladins and clerics keeping you under a microscope. Ease their suspicions by some amateur heroics, and they'll lower their guard enough for you to have some fun.

Segev

2015-09-25, 10:48 AM

Do remember the greatest tool of corruption: making those who want to seek it think, "It's okay."

The internet is good at this; for any interest, there's a group that shares your enthusiasm, and they all say that their interests are "okay." Even really, really deplorable ones (e.g. neo-nazi sites) will provide enough comforting like-mindedness to those who share their views that they can convince themselves that acting on their dark desires is acceptable, even laudible.

You're a demon of seduction. Be not just that which appeals to the baser, more shameful desires of your prey, but also be a sympathetic and understanding ear which gives social permission to their kinks, quirks, perversions, and depredations. Organize groups devoted to these activities, and make sure that you encourage an echo chamber of permissiveness.

Bonus points if you cast yourself as the object of these lusts, and thus a victim of them when the heroes break in and discover the perverse rites being performed on your "unwilling" (or "coerced") person.

And then, once they've rescued you, find out what their secret shames are, and show understanding. Make them comfortable with their sin. And perpetuate the cycle.

Draconium

2015-09-25, 11:04 AM

Don't just kill you victims. After all, what's more useful to you? A lifeless corpse, or a living person who is utterly and completely devoted to you, willing to throw away their morality and identity just to please you? Unless you're a necromancer, the choice should be clear.

ThinkMinty

2015-09-25, 03:17 PM

I updated the original post for further context n' stuff.

DO remember that Succubi are infiltrators or Overseers of lesser demons, not warriors.

Too late, Succubus Paladin. Her personality runs much more Paladin/Superhero-y than traditional Succubus. She's one of those people who says gosh and darn in the place of profanity. She does like spicy food and funk music, though.

TheThan

2015-09-25, 05:32 PM

nedz

2015-09-25, 06:03 PM

Don't go with the fake French accent, just because ...
Or Italian.

runeghost

2015-09-25, 06:38 PM

I've always liked having non-standard succubi in settings, like Fall-From-Grace and her Brothel of Slaking Intellectual Lusts from Planescape Torment, or Eludecia, the Succubus Paladin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a). I was in one 3.5 game where a succubus became fasinated with the party's paladin to the point where she acted like a Maniac Pixie Dream Girl. We could never tell if she was sincere, or it was just a act as part of a non-standard seduction.

bulbaquil

2015-09-25, 07:19 PM

Do: Remember that (in Pathfinder, at least) you have an INT of 18. This means you're not stupid, so don't act like it. Besides, being blatant about your desires is really more of an incubus thing to do, and you certainly don't want to be mistaken for an incubus - they're a CR level lower than you, after all.

Don't: Deal in contracts. That said, if a pesky PC tries to get you to agree to one, go ahead (after sensing-motive and possibly detecting thoughts on the contract-broker). You don't have to feel bound by it, after all - it's not your fault that they get demons and devils confused.

Do: Take advantage of your Profane Gift (Su) ability. Note that there is no limit to how many profane gifts the you can have active at one time, dear succubus, other than being limited to only providing one per day - the "can only have one profane gift at a time" restriction is for your victims. You want to do this to prevent other succubi from claiming your future telepathic suggestion targets.

legomaster00156

2015-09-25, 07:30 PM

Don't fight directly. That's what Dominated bodyguards are for. It bears repeating: you are a "lover", not a fighter.

Do use your charms to get ahead. Demon lords love concubines, even ones they know are using them. A well-placed Suggestion on someone bigger than you is much easier than trying to claw your way up through the ranks yourself.

TurboGhast

2015-09-25, 08:23 PM

DO switch clothes and body types up every once a while, to keep things interesting. Heck, if the succubus is a shapeshifter, why not try a male body? Different races/species?

Where's the relevant OotS comic strip?

#365: Caught in the Act (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html)

ThinkMinty

2015-09-25, 11:20 PM

Natural flight, summoning, huge racial bonuses to spot and listen and SLAs like Ethereal jaunt make you quite the dangerous warrior. Plus with natural seduction powers like sky high charisma, shape change, and charm you actually don’t need class skills or powers to do be seductive. A paladin is a natural combo because the class’s abilities are charisma based, but it’s not your only option.

Remember the fluff and mythology, though. An unholy temptress becoming a champion of sunshine, goodness and puppyhugs is just...extremely bizarre by the standards of D&D.

Don't blindly assume that the D&D 3.5 edition succubus is the only way to evoke playing a succubus.

Luckily I'm not talkin' about 3.5 as far as the Succubus Paladin is concerned.

Part of the fun is the thematic contrast, even if the Always Chaotic Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlwaysChaoticEvil) thing is adamantly not in play. Dressing a devil-looking person in a superhero outfit has some inherent silliness to it, and I just kinda dig that, I guess?

Don't go with the fake French accent, just because ...
Or Italian.

She's American (or Pseudo-American, anyways), I just haven't narrowed the specific regionalism down. Likely accent candidates are New York or Boston, so that she can command a presence when she needs to. Unsure how much sex appeal there is to those accents, they're just good for making her assertive when she'd need to be.

Now I’m imagining a barbarian succubus. “I chipped a nail!” rage!

http://i.imgur.com/HDEyjCq.jpg

goto124

2015-09-26, 09:59 AM

MrConsideration

2015-09-26, 11:02 AM

Ninja_Prawn

2015-09-26, 11:41 AM

Well, in a kind of Christian cosmology they trick you into illicit sex in order to damn you with sin. This doesn't fit with the assumptions of most D&D cosmologies, though, which don't mark extra-marital sex as Evil in the same way.

In a more gonzo, D&D cosmology they literally take your soul/life-force by having sex with you. Or, make you obsessively lust after them in order to manipulate you towards evil acts. As demons get progressively stronger by consuming souls, the Succubi wants to gain power for herself. There are some Succubi in various D&D/Pathfinders texts that have emerged as demonic aristocracy themselves.

The 5e MM says they work for powerful fiends as... basically infernal recruitment agents, by encouraging mortals to damn themselves, thus causing their souls to go to the lower planes when they die. Once a mortal is corrupted, the succubus/incubus then kills them immediately, so as to send the unfortunate soul straight to their employer.

I kind of like that fluff. It gives you a lot of leeway with what they do on a day to day basis. Plus they're NE rather than CE, which I like. They can work for both demons and devils. And yugoloths.

TheThan

2015-09-26, 12:01 PM

I’ve always used them to seduce powerful mortals into doing their bidding. Their goal is defined by their true master (read a demon lord); their weapon, seduction. They corrupt mortals into doing their bidding; a whisper in the right ear here, a promise there and now they have what their masters want.

This is why I never “spring” them on players; that bar wench the party bard just took upstairs is not a succubus (the surprise succubus is minor leagues when screwing with players). The king’s concubine on the other hand, might just be a succubus. A wizard that’s foolish enough to summon one, only thinks he’s in charge, he’s already fallen in to the succubus's hands. their goal is control, sex is just a tool in their arsenal.

When you look at the 3.5 Succubus, you see SLAs like detect thoughts, suggestion, charm. these make them a great manipulator.

nedz

2015-09-26, 01:26 PM

That metal bikini looks uncomfortable :smalltongue:

What do succubi do anyway, besides sleep with people? What makes them evil? I often hear 'using feminine wiles to trick men to their doom', but I have no idea how that works, or what exactly happens? Any examples please?

They're a kind of Femme Fatale, and are evil because they are Evil. In a world where Lust = Evil then this is obvious, in other worlds this might be less obvious.

ThinkMinty

2015-09-26, 02:03 PM

That metal bikini looks uncomfortable :smalltongue:

I don't disagree.

What do succubi do anyway, besides sleep with people? What makes them evil? I often hear 'using feminine wiles to trick men to their doom', but I have no idea how that works, or what exactly happens? Any examples please?

Eachother?

They're evil because they're demons, and demons are made of evil. It's...kinda ****ed up when you stop and think about it, IMHO.

Falls-from-Grace was sold into slavery by her mom, so...that's pretty ****ed up, right?

Well, in a kind of Christian cosmology they trick you into illicit sex in order to damn you with sin. This doesn't fit with the assumptions of most D&D cosmologies, though, which don't mark extra-marital sex as Evil in the same way.

It's Christian cosmology; anything fun is wrong.

In a more gonzo, D&D cosmology they literally take your soul/life-force by having sex with you. Or, make you obsessively lust after them in order to manipulate you towards evil acts. As demons get progressively stronger by consuming souls, the Succubi wants to gain power for herself. There are some Succubi in various D&D/Pathfinders texts that have emerged as demonic aristocracy themselves.

Speaking of, do Succubi ever go after women? Do different Succubi have different specialties as far as illicit sex goes? Like, one of them is really good at acting all shy and vulnerable to get into people's pants, another one is like the demon queen of pegging, etc. For some reason, I like the idea of specialist succubi more than the Jill-of-all-Kinks succubi are usually presented as.

MrConsideration

2015-09-26, 03:34 PM

Anonymouswizard

2015-09-26, 03:45 PM

I guess Succubi, being able to Detect Thoughts and Shapechange, would appear as exactly what the target is into. Plus, they're mostly millenia old, so they've had a long time to practice.

They've flatter their victims ego and tastes in all the right ways. The gallant hero wants a demure maiden? The Succubus can be that. The rogue wants a breathy-voiced tavern wench? The Succubus can be that.

Incubi go after (heterosexual) women, but I imagine Succubi can cater for all tastes.

Is there not also a raison d'etre in creating more Tieflings on the Material plane? The more infernal blood on the material plane, the more likely the world is to contain Evil, the more likely souls end up in the Abyss empowering Demonkind.

With regard for the bolded part, my bisexual kook would like to speak with you. He once had to leave the interrogation room because the Incubus was about to turn him*(he wasn't even allowed in the room with the succubus). Incubi can cater for all tastes.

Later on the group had a laugh as the succubus escaped from prison but. due to not being very well educated, didn't change from a Jessica Rabbit dress despite being stuck in the form of a 50 year old nun.

* On. Turn him on.

MrConsideration

2015-09-26, 03:53 PM

I was replying to 'Do Succubi ever go after women?' - I didn't mean to imply Incubi aren't a valid alternative lifestyle!:smallsmile:

In my personal headcanon, the same being is both an Incubi and a Succubi. Whichever fits the target you're trying to seduce. Only Material Plane races are obsessed enough with gender to try and characterise them as separate.

Honest Tiefling

2015-09-26, 04:08 PM

DO Consider mental factors even if you are going for the whole seducer angle. Even if you are in a group okay with the hanky-panky, it might be worthwhile to consider other factors. Plenty of people have a physical type, but they are also attracted to personality. A scholar might be more interested in a lady who is not the prettiest but has a mind to match and challenge his own. A lady knight might want a companion who can hold his own on the battlefield and doesn't need rescuing and, oh finally, actually knows how to hold a dang sword.

DO Consider that comfort, companionship, and understanding are also valuable tools for seduction especially for the long term. Being a confidant can ensure both longevity of the affair and learning sensitive information. Think of famous mistresses of kings and the power they sometimes welded.

ThinkMinty

2015-09-26, 04:23 PM

In my personal headcanon, the same being is both an Incubi and a Succubi. Whichever fits the target you're trying to seduce. Only Material Plane races are obsessed enough with gender to try and characterise them as separate.

In the old-timey myths, that's what happened. A succubus would get wiggly with a lecherous tosser, turn into a guy, then pump his incubated seed into some trallop, thus creating cambions with three parents who had two daddies and two mommies, half of which were the same demon-person.

Oddly enough, this is (sometimes) Merlin's origin story. He was immediately baptized as larva, though, so he's allowed to use magic without being automatically evil by the fun-killing standards of the kinds of people who are bothered about Dungeons & Dragons.

I was replying to 'Do Succubi ever go after women?' - I didn't mean to imply Incubi aren't a valid alternative lifestyle!:smallsmile:

I'd chalk it up to the individual 'cubus. If they're into that kind of thing, then they would. They're still individuals, they'd have varied tastes and whatnot.

Marlowe

2015-09-26, 09:51 PM

Do remember, not only are you not great at killing, but that it really doesn't help much. Killing a Good or Neutral or even Lawful Evil person is not advancing the interest of your team. Your job is to use the tools given unto you to turn these people toward chaos and evil.

goto124

2015-09-26, 09:57 PM

make you obsessively lust after them in order to manipulate you towards evil acts

infernal recruitment agents, by encouraging mortals to damn themselves

seduce powerful mortals into doing their bidding. Their goal is defined by their true master (read a demon lord); their weapon, seduction. They corrupt mortals into doing their bidding

Does anyone have any examples of these acts please? I can't seem to quite connect 'seduction' to 'mortal doing something Evil'.

ThinkMinty

2015-09-26, 10:00 PM

Does anyone have any examples of these acts please? I can't seem to quite connect 'seduction' to 'mortal doing something Evil'.

Kick puppies, steal Paladin's secret pornography stashes, etc.

Solaris

2015-09-26, 10:22 PM

It's Christian cosmology; anything fun is wrong.

That's not entirely true, but we really can't discuss that in any kind of depth here.

Does anyone have any examples of these acts please? I can't seem to quite connect 'seduction' to 'mortal doing something Evil'.

Honeytraps, blackmail, and the fact that people are willing to do things for their lovers that they wouldn't do for anyone else, and take a lover's counsel where they wouldn't take someone else's. There's a lot of persuasion and coercion that can be helped along by sexy-times, even without relying on the succubus's more overt and supernatural powers of persuasion.

Ninja_Prawn

2015-09-27, 04:24 AM

Does anyone have any examples of these acts please? I can't seem to quite connect 'seduction' to 'mortal doing something Evil'.

What Solaris said, and moreover, it doesn't have to be seduction. As long as the mortal commits a sin, the succubus has won. So most of the time, it's just about shifting people's worldviews slightly so that they don't realise what they're doing is wrong, or they think it's a small shortcut/white lie/necessary evil that they can get away in the service of greater good/neutral.

It's like, in real life, the print media twists stories with misleading half-facts and contrived word-choice to change the way people act. Like how they keep calling the Syrian refugees "migrants". People don't sympathise with "migrants".

ShadowFighter15

2015-09-27, 07:31 AM

You could probably get some ideas for the manipulative side by watching some shows about con-artists or similar forms of deception. Hustle and Leverage probably have a few parts you could get inspiration from, moreso the former than the latter as far as directly manipulating people goes - Leverage seems to be as much about heists and gadgetry as social engineering - and there's probably a few parts of Burn Notice you could work from.

Short version is to go for their heart, not their head. Find their passion and exploit it. Con artists find something the mark would pay lots of money for and is passionate enough about to not notice his common sense or scepticism warning him away. To take a few things from Hustle; a thug of a casino owner who's passionate about classic, black-and-white films, making him want to be involved in that so much that he's willing to invest a quarter of a million into it - or convincing a huge fan of Hollywood that you can sell them the famous sign. Whether a con-artist or a succubi; you're trying to make the mark's heart rule his head. Succubi may do it to manipulate them into something that ultimately leads to their downfall while letting them think it's a great idea until it's too late for him to back out. Unless they're particularly greedy, it's a waste to appeal to a rich man's desire for money; he's surrounded by money, his desire for more may not be enough. But something he can't get with his money, something he truly desires and that only you can provide. Play it right, and he'll dance on your puppet strings.

EDIT: That being said; you could introduce succubi and incubi forming smaller cabals, operating a whole network of manipulated individuals towards much larger goals. And all of it with much the same techniques as your average grifter playing the long-con.

Arutha

2015-09-27, 02:54 PM

Another thing is that you don't alway have to seduce the target. For example, if you want to corrupt someone with anger issues, seduce someone he cares for into betraying him in some personal way. When he flies into a rage and kills that person, you have both a traitors soul and a murdrers soul that you have had a hand in.

Segev

2015-09-28, 11:13 AM

Think of a succubus's seduction like an addictive drug. They make their victims want them so badly that they'll do anything for another hit. For her smile, for her approval.

Pull out some "harridan wife" or (for incubi) "abusive boyfriend" tropes, if you like. She'll play it not as an obligation with no reward, though; she'll play it as "if only you were more assertive/wealthy/influential, you could make me happier."

And making her happy means she'll make you feel good.

The skilled manipulatrix (and succubi are very skilled) will make it seem like it's a shortcoming in you that you're NOT doing what she wants you to. All the reasons why you shouldn't are petty, foolish, or even selfish weaknesses that are holding you back. They're cowardice, or putting priorities out of order (after all, your career and her happiness should be high priorities, right?).

So when you backstab that friend of yours at work for that promotion so that your mistress will be proud of you, you're only prioritizing your career and lover appropriately. It's selfish and weak of you to think that your so-called "friend" wouldn't have done the same to you, or that his happiness should come before yours or your mistress's.

A lot of what they do is just taking real, legitimate relationship concerns and conflicting schedules to an extreme. Where a real, legitimate girlfriend or wife might want you to go to a wedding with her, but it's your Mother's birthday, so you have to work around it, the succubus will want you to go to a party with her, or will be unwilling to rework the wedding and the birthday to make both work, or will always have a conflicting engagement for you to attend that means you're letting others down.

Meanwhile, the Incubus will encourage his victim to be more enticing. To "embrace" things he claims are positive - her sexuality, new styles, new friends and interests. He'll make her want him, and make her feel wanted...and then he'll start making her feel less wanted unless she's changing herself for him. He'll encourage her to cheat on an existing boyfriend (just as the succubus will an existing girlfriend), and he'll get her obsessed with as many trivial things as he can. He'll encourage her to look down her nose at those "beneath" her, and with his "social tips," he'll make sure she thinks most people are. But at the same time, if she doesn't do exactly what he manipulates her into doing, he'll make sure she knows she'll fall hard back into who she "used to be," and that girl is one whom he's made her look down on and be ashamed of.

Regardless of whether any of the changes he encourages are in some way positive, he'll take them to extrema. By the time he's done with her, nothing healthy will be left in her life (except, maybe, healthy food and exercise, and then only to slavishly please the 'right' crowd).

The whole goal of the seductive manipulators is to get you wrapped up in your own ego and your own selfish desires, even if they're focused in part on the succubus or incubus. You become dependent on them for your ego gratification (and the gratification of other desires), and your selfish need to gratify them becomes more important than your other morals, so you start being willing to do anything for them.

And then, of course, there's the really squicky option: using their shapeshifting to be your most illicit desire, and then telling you "it's okay." Making you feel that an aberrant, even harmful behavior is perfectly fine and that anybody who says otherwise is mistreating you, being bigotted or prejudiced. This kind of action will often seek to "help" you find others on which to practice it, so that real people are victimized by your illicit selfishness, and not just the centuries-old demon.

Imagine, for example, an incubus or succubus who assumes the form of a child to seduce somebody into being a pedophile, and then helps that person seduce, gathre, and maintain a harem of real children. Bonus evil points for the ability to probably encourage greater and greater acts of evil to cover it up from the eys of authority figures who "wouldn't understand."

illyahr

2015-09-28, 11:58 AM

Look up all the things Desire Demons get into in the Dragon Age games. It's not about lust, it's about convincing the target to embrace what they secretly desire. The demon gets the victim to admit what they really want and then provides the means for them to get it. Desire demons are in the second tier as far as demon rankings go, behind only pride demons. By stoking the victim's desires (whether for fame, power, money, etc.) the desire demon leads them farther and farther down the paths of evil in order to get it.

Also: a story of a succubus NPC I ran against the party once. She made the paladin fall, not by any force of will, but by surrendering. She swore that, if the paladin spared her life, she would not use her abilities unless the paladin ordered her to. She travelled with the group for a month, using only her physical attacks to defend the party, for a month before the group encountered a social challenge that they didn't want to deal with. When the paladin ordered the succubus to spy on the proceeding and give them information, he started down the slippery slope of using demonic power to achieve his goals. He was a blackguard within the next couple weeks.

VoxRationis

2015-09-28, 12:58 PM

Look up all the things Desire Demons get into in the Dragon Age games. It's not about lust, it's about convincing the target to embrace what they secretly desire. The demon gets the victim to admit what they really want and then provides the means for them to get it. Desire demons are in the second tier as far as demon rankings go, behind only pride demons. By stoking the victim's desires (whether for fame, power, money, etc.) the desire demon leads them farther and farther down the paths of evil in order to get it.
Little bit of nitpicking here: in Dragon Age: Origins at least (I'm not sure how they changed it in later games), desire demons aren't actually attempting to lure anyone down the paths of evil per se. Rather, they are attempting to work either to a possession (by convincing the target that they desire something enough to trade their free will for it) or to psychically draining the target dry while experiencing the mortal's fantasies, both of which fill an instinctive mental need of the demon.
Edit: That said, desire demons from Dragon Age are excellent examples of how a being whose short-term goal is simply to have sex with you can be a very bad thing to capitulate to.

Telonius

2015-09-28, 01:05 PM

Do communicate openly with the other players to help establish firm boundaries about what's acceptable, so as to prevent accidentally setting off a trigger.

This x1000.
DON'T put off this conversation. Have it before you bring the character to the table, individually with each other player if possible; definitely with the DM.

Segev

2015-09-28, 01:27 PM

Also: a story of a succubus NPC I ran against the party once. She made the paladin fall, not by any force of will, but by surrendering. She swore that, if the paladin spared her life, she would not use her abilities unless the paladin ordered her to. She travelled with the group for a month, using only her physical attacks to defend the party, for a month before the group encountered a social challenge that they didn't want to deal with. When the paladin ordered the succubus to spy on the proceeding and give them information, he started down the slippery slope of using demonic power to achieve his goals. He was a blackguard within the next couple weeks.

What was his first act of overt evil? Did his player realize he was slipping, or did this come as a surprise to him? What about the character? What made the character decide "Blackguard's cool, too," rather than being horrified and seeking redemption?

illyahr

2015-09-28, 01:53 PM

What was his first act of overt evil? Did his player realize he was slipping, or did this come as a surprise to him? What about the character? What made the character decide "Blackguard's cool, too," rather than being horrified and seeking redemption?

Using demonic power wasn't an "evil" action, per se, but it opened the door. His first outright Evil action came when he ordered the succubus to make a minor villain "disappear." I took this as an assassination and he fell for it. Since the succubus had sworn to serve the "paladin," she was not bound to obey him anymore but she stuck around for a few sessions to ease him into being evil. The character grew bitter about the loss of his power since he was trying to prevent more crimes, so he turned his back on Good and grew more self-serving.

I had talked to the player away from game before this and, since this was a more neutral-leaning game and he was tired of being the leash on the other players, agreed that he would try a blackguard. It was fun all around.

Segev

2015-09-28, 02:33 PM

That sounds cool. IC, did the soon-to-be-ex-paladin mean for it to be murder?

illyahr

2015-09-28, 02:38 PM

He was very clear that he didn't want to know. :smallbiggrin:

Segev

2015-09-28, 02:41 PM

He was very clear that he didn't want to know. :smallbiggrin:

That definitely counts! Good job, succubus!

Did she decide to play like she had a thing for him after he fell, or did she just move on after he took up the Blackguard mantle?

illyahr

2015-09-28, 02:51 PM

That definitely counts! Good job, succubus!

Did she decide to play like she had a thing for him after he fell, or did she just move on after he took up the Blackguard mantle?

She played nice while a "prisoner" and acted contrite but her intent was to make him fall. She gave him his Evil membership card (and some of the perks that her race give as bonuses with it) and abandoned him after he was fully commited. Her casual indifferance put him in line as an anti-villain. The sort of "what has happened is your fault and you will pay" sort of character so he could continue to do "good" deeds with the party. His Evil tendancies only showed up when he was taking out Outsiders and Clerics. He was a vindictive SoB. :smallamused:

ThinkMinty

2015-09-28, 03:02 PM

Imagine, for example, an incubus or succubus who assumes the form of a child to seduce somebody into being a pedophile, and then helps that person seduce, gathre, and maintain a harem of real children. Bonus evil points for the ability to probably encourage greater and greater acts of evil to cover it up from the eys of authority figures who "wouldn't understand."

That is...well, disturbing. I imagine they'd take some kind of frog-boiler approach, starting by barely crossing the line and working their way down into the depths of that flavor of depravity.

Oddly enough, I had this idea in reverse, with a Succubus takin' advantage of young people because they're easier marks and they could secure an entire lifetime of misdeeds. Lower risk, higher reward, and extra evil because they're going after younglings. Brr.

Segev

2015-09-28, 03:27 PM

That is...well, disturbing. I imagine they'd take some kind of frog-boiler approach, starting by barely crossing the line and working their way down into the depths of that flavor of depravity.That would be a part of it. It's a harder sell if the mark isn't "in" to this kind of thing to begin with, though. There comes an obvious line for crossing. The reason I brought it up with the idea that the succubus is feeding them a line of "it's okay" is because the idea is to get somebody struggling with something they know is wrong to give in. Give them permission. Make them think they're NOT wrong for wanting to do the things their conscience tells them are wrong. Then, once they're convinced they're "allowed" to perform those acts, persuade them that it's okay to induct/indoctrinate others, because everybody likes feeling like they belong. "It's okay" is a horrifying thing for people to think when applied to things that are most definitely not okay. And a succubus or incubus is ideally equipped to help persuade people that it's "okay."

Oddly enough, I had this idea in reverse, with a Succubus takin' advantage of young people because they're easier marks and they could secure an entire lifetime of misdeeds. Lower risk, higher reward, and extra evil because they're going after younglings. Brr.Also doable; probably starting with something Oedipal, though.

Though of course, combining the two approaches is even more horrifying. Create and sustain the whole cycle.

Sergeantbrother

2015-09-28, 06:21 PM

I had two different ideas for succubus psychology.

One of the two ideas is that succubi are consumed with intense feelings of lust for humans, and not just lust but passion and romantic feelings, even love. When the succubus approaches a mortal, she does so out of her intense need to love and be loved. She does what she can to please her mortal lover, though her presense is inherently corrupting and so her mortal lover becomes more evil and twisted as his or her desires are continually met and exceeded. Eventually the mortal becomes totally debuacued and evil, and the succubus being madly in love, does what she can to fulfill her lover's evil wants and desires. The two become partners in crime, so to speak. Eventually the mortal dies and the succubus grows in power for having corrupted a mortal soul - though she is filled with grief for her lost love until she can find the soul of her lover in the Abyss or finds another mortal lover to win her heart.

Then I thought about it a bit and an alternative idea for the Succubus came to me. This incarnation of the Succubus doesn't have fun, it doesn't like sex at all or even its demonic existence. The Succubus hates sex, even the thought of sex or attraction fills her with complete revulsion and hatred. For her, every sexual act is an act of utter degradation and humiliation, filling her with loathing for her partner and for herself. When ever she sees someone else enjoying sex, expressing attraction or desire, or even falling in love; it fills her with disgust and bitterness, it makes her want to make those people suffer. The Succubus must, however, utilize her sensuality else her demonic power fade and she be forced back to the Abyss where her essence will be devoured by other demons or she becomes reduced to a dretch or manes. For this Succubus, her existence is hell, and she seeks to make others suffer as she does.

I'm not sure which of these ideas I like more, I maybe mix and match a little the next time I have the issue come up in a game. Maybe the first should be the Abyssal CE Succubus, while the second could be an equivalent LE sex devil from Hell.

OldTrees1

2015-09-28, 10:44 PM

I had two different ideas for succubus psychology.

Wow.
Those are good enough that now I want similar ideas for various other Devils/Demons.

Hawkstar

2015-09-29, 07:48 AM

Here's one that applies to all monsters, not just Succubi:

*Do remember that you are a monster, not a person. You are the semi-sapient (But highly intelligent and aware-of-your-environment) manifestation of a malevolent cosmic force. While your figure may be humanoid, you're more akin to a hurricane - but with a drive and motivation. You are a force of nature. You should not particularly care about yourself, except as a vessel through which you spread distrust, treachery, sorrow, and other sins through those you interact with. You have no shame, you have no dignity, you have no needs. But you do have desires, and you do have agency. You appear to be human, though... and people will project personhood upon you (Even those who technically know better), because they see your figure and your actions and assume you are like them. Use your own nonpersonhood to get others to blur the line between monster and person - treating monsters like people (and allowing them to likewise exploit others' good intentions to spread horror and misery), and treating people like monsters (inflicting horrible fates on those who do not deserve such)... and, get those who do know the nature of a monster destroyed and discredited by the ignorant.

ILM

2015-09-29, 11:11 AM

Do play the long game. You're an immortal outsider. Mortal lives go by in the blink of an eye. You've seen empires rise and fall. You're CR 7 (and ECL 12!) which makes you major potatoes to all but the most hardened adventurers. It's fun to take a paladin and make him fall, and there's something to be said for the day to day routine of turning a good man to evil. But you're so much than that. You're the ultimate con-artist, and you have all the time in the world. Why bother with the daily grind of corrupting mortals when you can seduce a noble, live in luxury, help him grow in influence through all the means at your disposal; and years or decades - hell, generations - later, cash in on the iron grip you've built to do something that even your infernal masters will notice. Why, if the chaos inherent to your kind didn't cause most of them to lose interest mid-way, the mortals would simply not stand a chance.

TheCountAlucard

2015-09-29, 11:30 AM

Here's one that applies to all monsters, not just Succubi...

...

You are the semi-sapient (But highly intelligent and aware-of-your-environment) manifestation of a malevolent cosmic force.Obviously not applicable to all monsters.

Do remember that you are... not a person.Definitely not applicable to all monsters!

"Monster" =/= "not a person," especially in the context of RPGs where "monster" is typically a shorthand for "what the PCs fight."

Hell, it's not even subject to all succubus/incubus figures, since, as has been mentioned, this isn't specifically D&D 3.5e where "succubus" refers to a 7HD cosmic clot of raw chaos and evil.

Ninja_Prawn

2015-09-29, 01:48 PM

"Monster" =/= "not a person," especially in the context of RPGs where "monster" is typically a shorthand for "what the PCs fight."

To quote OotS: "we're all in the Monster Manual somewhere" (I think that's how it goes, anyway...)

The 5e MM has 9 whole pages (342-350) devoted to creatures that are obviously people, and I would argue that anything with the 'humanoid' type has a good claim to being 'people, too'.

Hawkstar

2015-09-29, 07:05 PM

Obviously not applicable to all monsters.

Definitely not applicable to all monsters!

"Monster" =/= "not a person," especially in the context of RPGs where "monster" is typically a shorthand for "what the PCs fight."

Hell, it's not even subject to all succubus/incubus figures, since, as has been mentioned, this isn't specifically D&D 3.5e where "succubus" refers to a 7HD cosmic clot of raw chaos and evil.If they're people, they're not monsters, even if they're in a book full of monsters. And my observation applies just as much to Pathfinder, D&D 4e, D&D 5e, and 13th Age.

goto124

2015-09-29, 07:38 PM

DO check (the Monster Manual or any equivalents, if you can break the fourth wall) what 'monster' means, which kind of monster you are, and if you're capable of going good (as well as how hard it is to go against your evil nature).

Kelb_Panthera

2015-09-29, 08:15 PM

If they're people, they're not monsters, even if they're in a book full of monsters. And my observation applies just as much to Pathfinder, D&D 4e, D&D 5e, and 13th Age.

Somebody introduce this guy to politics. That should handily clear up the misconception that "monster" and "person" are mutually exclusive.

TheCountAlucard

2015-09-29, 10:25 PM

Somebody introduce this guy to politics.Not on this forum, though. :smallwink:

Cool Trash

2015-09-30, 12:09 AM

DO spread fear, whenever you can do so indirectly. There are a lot of things people would never consider "okay" but would definitely consider "justifiable given the circumstances". Create those circumstances. Murder an innocent and frame an ethnic minority, than incite a mob. Give plague to a couple people and sow paranoia-make them beat the downtrodden. Spread rumors about city guardsman seducing idle housewives, and arm their husbands. The world determines what people want. Make them want the worst of themselves.

DON'T get too caught up in mortal fancies. Remember, you're undying. That hilarious limerick rolling around town that you ask the tavern bard to recite every other night? No one will recall it in twenty years, ten if you're unlucky. Your favorite fruit? One bad plague of insects and you could be forced to go years without it. Anything you grow attached to, you'll outlive.
And let's not forget people in this equation-you're a succubus. Pleasant conversation-of mind and body-is your forte. But you don't get to do it the way mortals do. You always have an ulterior motive, even if you don't want to, because you're never not lying about yourself. Because you consume people. Because even though you're literally built for pleasure, it's never been about you-it's about your agenda. And if you let yourself enjoy their company too much, one day you might wake up and feel tired. You might feel like, just once, you want to be genuine with someone. And you might not know how to think that way. You might not even be able to think that way. And that kinda thinking can destroy you.

...okay, that was a bit melodramatic, but I hope you get my point.

Eugoraton Feiht

2015-09-30, 01:44 PM

Do remember that brothels are a legitimate form of business in most lawful or corrupt merchant, port, and large cities.

Do remember that if you out evil people in the town, others will see you as a good person and trust you.

Doremember that you live in a world of wizards and magic. Should your disguise be broken accuse the party attacking you of casting an illusion on you and attempting to murder you. Looks even better if you've settled down in a town and the town trusts you. (See above)

Do remember to have contingency plans and escape routes in case you need to flee.

Do remember that while you are an evil seductress, there do exist beings that are more vile and shrouded in darkness than you. Should you encounter a being such as this choose a different target or proceed with extreme caution, especially should they be a mortal race.

Don't rely on other demons to aid you in a pinch, especially if they owe you. Should you die, they are not beholden to a corpse.

Don't forget that if you live in a lawful community/city, and a paladin or pc attempts to attack you, that they must first have proof you have broken a law. If not, please see to your local guard outpost for assistance.

Solaris

2015-09-30, 06:29 PM

DO spread fear, whenever you can do so indirectly. There are a lot of things people would never consider "okay" but would definitely consider "justifiable given the circumstances". Create those circumstances. Murder an innocent and frame an ethnic minority, than incite a mob. Give plague to a couple people and sow paranoia-make them beat the downtrodden. Spread rumors about city guardsman seducing idle housewives, and arm their husbands. The world determines what people want. Make them want the worst of themselves.

This sounds like a good way to attract do-gooders and their smiting.

DON'T get too caught up in mortal fancies. Remember, you're undying. That hilarious limerick rolling around town that you ask the tavern bard to recite every other night? No one will recall it in twenty years, ten if you're unlucky. Your favorite fruit? One bad plague of insects and you could be forced to go years without it. Anything you grow attached to, you'll outlive.
And let's not forget people in this equation-you're a succubus. Pleasant conversation-of mind and body-is your forte. But you don't get to do it the way mortals do. You always have an ulterior motive, even if you don't want to, because you're never not lying about yourself. Because you consume people. Because even though you're literally built for pleasure, it's never been about you-it's about your agenda. And if you let yourself enjoy their company too much, one day you might wake up and feel tired. You might feel like, just once, you want to be genuine with someone. And you might not know how to think that way. You might not even be able to think that way. And that kinda thinking can destroy you.

Well, let's be fair. If you're a succubus who finds she enjoys a particular mortal's company, I'm pretty sure you have ways of ensuring you... retain their company forever.
After all, nothing says the succubus can't keep a few souls around for her own enjoyment, eh?

Eugoraton Feiht

2015-10-01, 08:12 AM

See maybe this is me just not understanding but do Succubi actually need to spread fear, destruction, and evil? Aren't they just seducers? I don't understand this whole thing of make evil and fear be known... It's not good for business. You'd get further by not doing any of these things. An intelligent succubus/incubus would become a brothel owner/worker which would then allow them free access to people. It is in their best interest to cater to the whims of the town that way because then they'll get a huge flow of customers. Spreading fear and evil do not good followers make.

Ideally, they would start a brothel, find customers that are willing, because of course there are, and then start a demonic cult while keeping it under wraps.

I say this because they are intelligent. They are also evil. Thus it is in their best interest to remain hidden for as long as possible...

nedz

2015-10-01, 01:50 PM

Eugoraton Feiht

2015-10-01, 02:20 PM

You mean like this guy ?

http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M5ed0cc819507479d342dd82dd9d98b0do1&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300
Chaos is a Ladder

Though to be fair he has levels in some Management PrCs

Yes. I approve of the reference. Evil shouldn't be some hulking brute looking to destroy everything. Leave that to the good guys. They ransack enough on their way through dungeons. We are evil. We are suave and sophisticated. Let them run to the tune that we set, like rats in a maze.

L Space

2015-10-05, 07:11 PM

Ideally, they would start a brothel, find customers that are willing, because of course there are, and then start a demonic cult while keeping it under wraps.

I say this because they are intelligent. They are also evil. Thus it is in their best interest to remain hidden for as long as possible...

DO remember that you don't have to be "in charge" to be the one in control. In the above example, instead of leading a brothel/demonic cult manipulate someone else in to doing it instead and just be their second-in-command. Make them think that all of your ideas are actually their own. That way if things ever go badly, you can declare your innocence and state you were being controlled by the evil cultist leader.

Rockphed

2015-10-05, 08:50 PM

Not on this forum, though. :smallwink:

That people are often monsters when politics are involved is why we have that rule here.

DO remember that you don't have to be "in charge" to be the one in control. In the above example, instead of leading a brothel/demonic cult manipulate someone else in to doing it instead and just be their second-in-command. Make them think that all of your ideas are actually their own. That way if things ever go badly, you can declare your innocence and state you were being controlled by the evil cultist leader.

This, I think, cannot be emphasized often enough. Being the favored concubine or lieutenant of someone and feeding them nefarious plans both allows you to corrupt a soul and to have plausible deniability when the paladins come a-smiting. Just remember to slip away before they start thinking too hard. Also to try to get a new face after every palavasion. You never know when an immortal elf is going to show up and wonder why the tyrant's concubine is the spitting image, right down to the birthmark and tatoo, of the waif he rescued from a similar tyrant 500 years ago.

More pertinently, this is how a succubus should show up in most campaigns. Sometimes there will be a Sabine, who openly assists one of the antagonists, but more often they are going to be the shrowded (or scantily clad as the case may be) figure behind (or, again, as the case may be, draped in front of) the throne.

Crake

2015-10-05, 11:36 PM

Do communicate openly with the other players to help establish firm boundaries about what's acceptable, so as to prevent accidentally setting off a trigger.

If you're playing in a group with people who can get triggered, then then answer is just don't.

You can't do a succubus character justice if you have to embrace boundaries of any kind, because succubi don't give a damn about boundaries. In fact, they are all about breaking boundaries. They will make you feel uncomfortable, nervous, on edge and all around uneasy, and they will take advantage of it. They will use overt sexualization if it makes you stammer and freeze up unexpectedly, and they will take advantage of that. If you show weakness, they will exploit it, and they will do it cruelly, and with great satisfaction. Too many of the posts in this thread are forgetting that succubi are viscious, and bloodthirsty at times. While maybe adventurers are better served being exploited and turned for the forces of evil, ritualistic sacrifice serves the same purpose for the masses of commoners out there, and sometimes the succubus just wants to rip open a new hole in someone and do ungodly things with it.

If the only difference with OP's succubus from standard lore is that she's fey not outsider, but is otherwise just as viscious and evil as demons in other games are, all I can say is you need to have players who are able to separate themselves from the game, and understand that this is just a character being portrayed. Honestly, if they even hint at being "triggered", just don't. If you do, then you won't really be playing a succubus.

Segev

2015-10-06, 12:14 PM

Too many of the posts in this thread are forgetting that succubi are viscious, and bloodthirsty at times.

I have to disagree with the sentiment, here. The whole point of the succubus is the alluring seduction of evil. The temptation, the corruption. She may take delight in cruelty, but she should rarely seem to be cruel to you, not while you're the object of her ... designs.

She should disturb when observed from the outside, but those working with/for/over her should believably find her attractive, interesting, desirable.

Her viciousness centers on that of the Evil Cheerleader in high school, the popular girl who snubs you and engages in bullying tactics which humiliate you in public without QUITE overtly getting her hands dirty. She'll get her jock boyfriend (whether a bigger, stronger, more overtly brutal demon, or some sap she's seducing to the dark side) to do the physical cruelty. She'll order/ask/manipulate minions into being cruel. Rarely should she be engaged in it directly, herself, and even then, only in a way designed to emphasize a conflict between wanting her and being terrified of her.

Any demon can be a torture fiend with a bloodlust for violence. The whole point of the succubus is to put the pretty face on evil and show why people are tempted towards it.

Crake

2015-10-06, 12:36 PM

I have to disagree with the sentiment, here. The whole point of the succubus is the alluring seduction of evil. The temptation, the corruption. She may take delight in cruelty, but she should rarely seem to be cruel to you, not while you're the object of her ... designs.

She should disturb when observed from the outside, but those working with/for/over her should believably find her attractive, interesting, desirable.

Her viciousness centers on that of the Evil Cheerleader in high school, the popular girl who snubs you and engages in bullying tactics which humiliate you in public without QUITE overtly getting her hands dirty. She'll get her jock boyfriend (whether a bigger, stronger, more overtly brutal demon, or some sap she's seducing to the dark side) to do the physical cruelty. She'll order/ask/manipulate minions into being cruel. Rarely should she be engaged in it directly, herself, and even then, only in a way designed to emphasize a conflict between wanting her and being terrified of her.

Any demon can be a torture fiend with a bloodlust for violence. The whole point of the succubus is to put the pretty face on evil and show why people are tempted towards it.

You're right, to a degree. A succubus will use those tactics as her primary arsenal, which is why I mentioned that she would do those sorts of things to adventurers, to people who she can't otherwise subjugate.

But most people, she could rip their throat out with a single swipe. To her, those people are not worth the time to seduce. To her, those people are toys to be played with, objects of curiosity to be torn apart and inspected, food to be tasted, and of course, souls to be torn asunder.

Remember, succubi are demons, they have little need for souls beyond use as a currency, of which most normal plebs would barely be copper pieces. Unlike devils who actually use souls to make more devils, demons are sprung forth from the abyss, so demons hardly care for them at all. Demons don't do evil for a greater purpose, they do evil because to them, its FUN. Succubi come home to their cult from a long day of seduction to maim, rape and torture their cultists, all the while making them believe they enjoy it (which eventually becomes a reality). Again, succubi only seduce as a means of getting their way with those more powerful than them. If they're already more powerful than their victims (CR be damned, given the right arsenal a succubus can be terrifying even to a level 13 character) then they have no need for seduction, and instead veer to domination (and i don't mean the spell), and what a brutal and cruel domination it would be.

People seem all too eager to pretend that succubi end their evils at seduction, but their evil runs so much deeper. Seduction is merely the tool they use for their ends.

Now, that's not to say succubi are single minded bloodthirsty monsters, they can certainly be multi faceted and deep NPCs, just never forget that they're demons, and given the chance, they would do unimaginably horrible things to you.

JusticeZero

2015-10-06, 06:57 PM

Rockphed

2015-10-07, 08:42 PM

Succubi probably aren't "freaky slutty demons trying to make people kinky" because that's a poor return on investment. Plus, it's silly to have a major class of demons that asexual people can just ignore. I see them as more associated with the scene here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html) than anything else - "Look, we both know you're going to a bad place, but let me help you make it worth your while and get you in the back door with my boss in return for a few favors.."

Honestly, I think that Miko's response to Sabine is one of the best responses possible to a demon.

Solaris

2015-10-07, 11:33 PM

Succubi probably aren't "freaky slutty demons trying to make people kinky" because that's a poor return on investment. Plus, it's silly to have a major class of demons that asexual people can just ignore. I see them as more associated with the scene here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html) than anything else - "Look, we both know you're going to a bad place, but let me help you make it worth your while and get you in the back door with my boss in return for a few favors.."

Except most people aren't asexual, and there are other demons who specialize in other forms of temptation (D&D has the glabrezu tempting people with greed, for example). If you've infinite fiends, not specializing is silly.

Weirdlet

2015-10-08, 02:20 AM

I think one way to go about this is think of them not necessarily as purely about Lust, but about Desire. In Dragon Age: Origins, demons are spirits that try, and fail, to comprehend the material world, and they're themed along the lines of the Deadly Sins- Pride, Wrath, Sloth, etc. Desire demons look like succubi, and are often all about the lusty temptation- but what they glom onto primarily is what you want, and use that to grab hold of your body and mind.

One example had a bewitched warrior turn and attack the protagonist while the demon cried out that they were here to attack their family, that the children were in danger. He was sworn to a celibate order- but what the Desire demon used to enslave him was his desire for a family and a life outside of his vows, not the immediate desire for sex- though what he wanted and the illusion the demon sold to him were in the realm of sex and its wider implications and applications, access to and results from.

(An entirely different Desire demon possesses a young boy who is terrified he's going to lose a parent, and wishes desperately for the power to save him. The resulting chaos is really quite spectacular. But while the MO is good, generally D&D-type succubi tend to be a bit smarter about the execution of their plans.)

Be sneaky. Use your wiles, your information network, your spells and your skill-checks to get a good cold-read on people and tailor your methods to your preferred victims. Or, to follow the words of another manipulative dark enchantress, Winnowill from ElfQuest- "Find out what he wants, and give it to him. Then create another need, and fulfill that. And so on, and so on..."

Edit- D'oh. It has been too long since I read this thread through, I duplicated earlier poster talking about DA:O Desire demons. My apologies.

Segev

2015-10-08, 11:28 AM

Crake

2015-10-08, 11:47 AM

I don't think there are people who are "not worth their time" just because they're individually weak or uninfluential. The succubus's powers are perfect for turning such weak-minded tools to her own use. Sure, they're not useful individually, but when she has the entire town swooning for her merest smile, that town is far more dangerous to those do-gooding adventurers than an empty town full of corpses would be.

You can be sure that there will be people who are not worth their time, it's simple supply mechanics, she has a limited amount of attention she can provide at any given moment, so she will use that attention seduce the juiciest target she can. If she has better, more important people to seduce into ruin, she's not going to waste her time with them. Sure if she's seducing the town due to a focus on someone else, that's a different story. Realistically though, she's less seducing them and more just mentally enslaving them, which again is really just subjugation. A simple charm or dominate thrown about the place and easy peasy.

"Useful". That's something a devil would say about someone, you need to remember that succubi are demons, not devils (at least in 3.5e and earlier), meaning that they are chaotic by nature, they do what pleases them, not necessarily what's the most forward thinking thing. Sure that pleb might be more "useful" as part of a collective, but she really feels like ripping his guts out right now and hearing him scream, all the while she's riding him like a cowgirl as she drains his life force away, all in front of his family who are terrified and letting out delightful screams of terror. Of course, now the family's seen her for what she really is, so she needs to take care of them now, and so on.

It's not about what's useful, it's about what's fun.

TheCountAlucard

2015-10-08, 12:59 PM

As has been said, repeatedly, we're not strictly limiting ourselves to D&D 3.5 when talking about succubi. So please cut it with the No True Scotsman bit.

Segev

2015-10-08, 03:00 PM

I'm mostly objecting to the notion that succubi are inherently sadistic in a blood-thirsty, physical-torture sort of way. It's just not they're typical paradigm. If she's ripping somebody's throat out with her demon-claws, she's probably venting frustration more than sating a constant urge. The succubus is set apart from other sorts of demon in part by the fact that physical brutality just isn't her thing. She can do it, but she has other ways of having her fun with her victims.

For instance, if she really does love hearing those peasants scream in agony, it's more fun still to have somebody else do it for her while she watches. After all, that's what thralls are for! (And it's a bonus point of getting another person to corrupt themselves with murder.)

Crake

2015-10-08, 10:29 PM

As has been said, repeatedly, we're not strictly limiting ourselves to D&D 3.5 when talking about succubi. So please cut it with the No True Scotsman bit.

I said 3.5 and earlier. 4e and 5e took a shift away from the normal, but they can't seem to decide on something and stick with it, with 4e making them devils, and 5e just making them generic fiends with no consistent lore carrying on, as opposed to everything before that which carried along a similar vein of lore, which is generally in keeping with historical lore of some kind. So if I have to base my ideas of how succubi will act, i'll take the most consistent lore behind them to do so.

I'm mostly objecting to the notion that succubi are inherently sadistic in a blood-thirsty, physical-torture sort of way. It's just not they're typical paradigm. If she's ripping somebody's throat out with her demon-claws, she's probably venting frustration more than sating a constant urge. The succubus is set apart from other sorts of demon in part by the fact that physical brutality just isn't her thing. She can do it, but she has other ways of having her fun with her victims.

For instance, if she really does love hearing those peasants scream in agony, it's more fun still to have somebody else do it for her while she watches. After all, that's what thralls are for! (And it's a bonus point of getting another person to corrupt themselves with murder.)

It's not savage, there's a finesse to it, a finesse that mortals simply don't have, and yes, all demons are inherently sadistic and blood-thirsty. What you're talking about is the notion that succubi dislike combat, but that's not because hurting people isnt her thing, it's because GETTING hurt isn't her thing (unless it is).

I mean, this honestly just comes down to a difference of opinion, and if you want to play your succubi as civil people who would never personally hurt a single soul, then so be it, but the way I run succubi, that kind of thing would be the exception, not the rule. Demons will be demons after all, just because they have a different appearance, doesn't make them any less carnal and bloodthirsty. They do what they want, and what they typically want is to see mortals suffer and be brought to ruin. The easiest way to see a mortal suffer is to inflict that suffering yourself.

But since there's no use arguing a difference of opinion, I'll just leave it at that. Demons are pure evil, but I suppose if you can't imagine pure evil, it's hard to play pure evil.

I suppose think about it this way: Would a glabrezu, when faced with a worthless wretched commoner, tempt the commoner to ruin with greed? Or would he just chop him in two with a pincer? It's the same circumstance, just different MO.

nedz

2015-10-09, 04:03 AM

I do view them as being much more likely to prefer to cause psychological distress rather than physical distress in their victims. This is certainly what they have the skills and abilities for.

Hawkstar

2015-10-10, 12:37 AM

It's not savage, there's a finesse to it, a finesse that mortals simply don't have, and yes, all demons are inherently sadistic and blood-thirsty. No, they're inherently Chaotic and Evil. They're rather suck the soul out of a person, or damn it to the abyss.

I mean, this honestly just comes down to a difference of opinion, and if you want to play your succubi as civil people who would never personally hurt a single soul, then so be it, but the way I run succubi, that kind of thing would be the exception, not the rule."Not brutally violent"=/= "Won't hurt a soul". They just happen to enjoy hurting, draining, and destroying souls directly, without mangling the body it's attached to.

But since there's no use arguing a difference of opinion, I'll just leave it at that. Demons are pure evil, but I suppose if you can't imagine pure evil, it's hard to play pure evil.There's more to "Pure Evil" than Violent Bloodbaths.

I suppose think about it this way: Would a glabrezu, when faced with a worthless wretched commoner, tempt the commoner to ruin with greed? Or would he just chop him in two with a pincer? It's the same circumstance, just different MO.Tempt him first, if he has nothing better to do. (Cutting him in half is not something better to do, unless it's a demonstration of his power).

goto124

2015-10-10, 02:27 AM

DO figure out how demons, devils, and succubi work in your setting.

Closet_Skeleton

2015-10-10, 05:37 PM

Actual folkloric Succubi are night-time sleep rapists and have nothing seductive about them. The myth of the Succubus is associated with sleep, dreams and particularly sleep paralysis and panic attacks. The key theme is a fear of loss of self-control against an overwhelming malevolent supernatural force, its 100% about rape, not temptation. As a powerful female rapist, the Succubus also represents a reversal of social norms. The whole "lust is a sin" thing never had anything to do with the Succubus as a figure in folklore. So "Succubi must be seductive" doesn't have any logic to it outside of a certain context since the seductive Succubus is basically a DnD invention anyway but the traditional mind control and charm powers of the DnD Succubus are perfectly in keeping with the folklore version.

So DO be consistent with the setting or your character if the character has already been stated to be atypical.

Don't assume stuff based on erotic art.

Don't confuse ends with means. Abilities are weapons with multiple potential uses, not objectives that need to be used.