One Shot Damage

[Anukan]

My apologies if this is in the class and level geekery thread somewhere

I'm going to assume that last hit was a critical on Count Durkon. With~15 HD he should have around 85 hit points. With Roy's strength, feats and +5 from the sword, I'd estimate he could easily do 90 points of damage in a single shot with a critical. Seem like something is wrong with this calculation. This does not even include the green undead proc which is probably another multiplier or a power attack.

Greatsword = 7 avg.
Enhancement= +5
BAB= +15
24 Str (from belt) = +12 * 1.5 (2-hand bonus) = 18
Weapon Spec = +2
Critical = x2

(7+5+15+18+2)*2=92?

Minus 10 DR for vampire. Durkon just ate 82 damage?

[Jasdoif]

Three things look off.


BAB= +15
Base Attack Bonus doesn't normally add to damage (you already said you weren't considering a power attack, which is the typical way to accomplish that).


24 Str (from belt) = +12 * 1.5 (2-hand bonus) = 1824 Str is a +7 modifier (and times 1.5 would make it +10); modifiers are +0 at 10/11 in the ability, not at 0.


Critical = x2Undead aren't subject to critical damage multipliers.

[Bulldog Psion]

So in other words, we're looking at more like 24 damage, and that's before DR.

[theasl]

Undead aren't subject to critical damage multipliers.

Unless one of the properties of starmetal (which IIRC is invented by Rich) enables that.

[Bulldog Psion]

Unless one of the properties of starmetal (which IIRC is invented by Rich) enables that.

My personal opinion is that's what the green glow is all about.

[theasl]

My personal opinion is that's what the green glow is all about.

Yeah, I think that's the general consensus around here. But, you never know!

[monomer]

Let's say he was using a +5 power attack, though, this would up his approximate damage to 34 (+10 damage with a two-handed sword).

This is why I don't understand why everyone in the #1006 discussion thread is saying the fight is over. Roy is at 1 HP and has one more round left in him. With three +5 Power attacks at his disposal, if two connect, that is likely enough to take out an already damaged Durkon.

[theasl]

Because if HPOH so much as pokes him with his finger (probably an exaggeration but still) he's negative and dropping.

[monomer]

Because if HPOH so much as pokes him with his finger (probably an exaggeration but still) he's negative and dropping.

But he still needs to close to make the poke attack, at which point Roy gets his shots in.

[Emperordaniel]

But he still needs to close to make the poke attack, at which point Roy gets his shots in.

Roy is currently prone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#prone), and as such would be subject to an Attack of Opportunity at -4 AC from the High Priest of Hel should he try to get up; attacking from his prone position on the other hand would add -4 to his attack rolls, on top of the -4 he already has from all the negative levels the High Priest already laid on him.

EDIT: Oh, and since the High Priest of Hel is a vampire - and thus, bestows two negative levels with each hit, each of which comes with a painful -5 hit points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) - a single poke would literally kill Roy, putting him at -9 hit points.

[ChillerInstinct]

But he still needs to close to make the poke attack, at which point Roy gets his shots in.

Literally speaking, yes. But assuming that he IS at 1 HP, any of Durkon's ranged spells will do him in, and he's really in no condition to do much about that. At this point Durkon could literally throw a pebble-ish piece of rubble and knock him stone dead without even trying.

He probably WON'T, of course, because the HPoH is a cocky, arrogant little weasel who, dollars to donuts, will want Roy to witness his epic, planet destroying failure while telling him to his face that he'll personally torture the real Durkon for the rest of eternity and also probably eat a puppy without milk and maybe kick a crying baby for good measure, because that's the type of mustache-twirling evil that the HPoH is. (Sidebar: I'd love to see Xykon and the HPoH locked together in Xykon's soul gem once this is all wrapped up, just for the hilarity of them trading notes for the rest of eternity)

I suppose, technically, if the HPoH celebrates prematurely and offers Roy cruel mercy by forcing him to watch, Roy COULD just shiv him in the back through the heart, assuming that he's stupid enough to not take his sword away (it wouldn't SURPRISE me, but I'm not counting on it), and that's game. At this point, though, I think it's fairly safe to assume that Roy's out of the fight pending some sort of outside intervention.

[Jelly d6]

Roy is currently prone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#prone), and as such would be subject to an Attack of Opportunity at -4 AC from the High Priest of Hel should he try to get up; attacking from his prone position on the other hand would add -4 to his attack rolls, on top of the -4 he already has from all the negative levels the High Priest already laid on him.

EDIT: Oh, and since the High Priest of Hel is a vampire - and thus, bestows two negative levels with each hit, each of which comes with a painful -5 hit points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) - a single poke would literally kill Roy, putting him at -9 hit points.

Not to mention that Roy cannot even grab his sword without provoking an Attack of opportunity. And attacking Durkula with bare hands would hardly do anything because of high AC and damage reduction.

[Rodin]

Also, people are saying the fight is over because OOTS runs on Rule of Drama, not Rule of RAW. Durkula just downed Roy and gets to stand over him cackling - ain't no way Roy is going to suddenly win that fight on his own. Get saved by a last minute field goal from Belkar, or from some other outside influence...sure. But Roy standing up saying "I've got 1 HP left!" and shish-kebabing Durkula is extremely unlikely.

[TheMiningDwarf]

Also, people are saying the fight is over because OOTS runs on Rule of Drama, not Rule of RAW. Durkula just downed Roy and gets to stand over him cackling - ain't no way Roy is going to suddenly win that fight on his own. Get saved by a last minute field goal from Belkar, or from some other outside influence...sure. But Roy standing up saying "I've got 1 HP left!" and shish-kebabing Durkula is extremely unlikely.

Okay then how about this Durkula spends his obligatory comic and a half gloating about his victory, tipping Roy off to the fact that he's not Durkon turns his back to Roy, thinking he's so little a threat at this point to address the audience of clerics for one last good "In Your Faces!" before killing Roy and then we see Roy's greatsword being jammed through Durkon, green glow and all. And then we see Roy behind him breathing heavy "I- still- have- 1 HP!" And then he cleaves Durkula in two and finishes him off. Is that Dramatic enough for you? :smallbiggrin:

[AlurenDarkfire]

Okay then how about this Durkula spends his obligatory comic and a half gloating about his victory, tipping Roy off to the fact that he's not Durkon turns his back to Roy, thinking he's so little a threat at this point to address the audience of clerics for one last good "In Your Faces!" before killing Roy and then we see Roy's greatsword being jammed through Durkon, green glow and all. And then we see Roy behind him breathing heavy "I- still- have- 1 HP!" And then he cleaves Durkula in two and finishes him off. Is that Dramatic enough for you? :smallbiggrin:

Yes. Yes, it is.
*slow clap*

[ChillerInstinct]

Okay then how about this Durkula spends his obligatory comic and a half gloating about his victory, tipping Roy off to the fact that he's not Durkon turns his back to Roy, thinking he's so little a threat at this point to address the audience of clerics for one last good "In Your Faces!" before killing Roy and then we see Roy's greatsword being jammed through Durkon, green glow and all. And then we see Roy behind him breathing heavy "I- still- have- 1 HP!" And then he cleaves Durkula in two and finishes him off. Is that Dramatic enough for you? :smallbiggrin:

I've got no objections. Heck, I'd take it without the bisection, just have him dramatically yank the sword out of him, let the HPoH stagger a few seconds as it processes what just happened, then collapse in an undignified heap.

Although... if this WERE how it plays out, I think I'd prefer Belkar to make a dramatic entrance in order to flank him, so that Roy can say those three little words that we all love to hear so very much... Not to mention that SHOULD negate the Attack of Opportunity mentioned above, right?

[Fey]

Unless one of the properties of starmetal (which IIRC is invented by Rich) enables that.


My personal opinion is that's what the green glow is all about.

Rich didn't invent Starmetal. It's in the Complete Arcana, pg 141:


Starmetal: This superior alloy is made from meteoric iron--specifically, ore refined from meteors that fall during the rare appearances of the comet Alhazarde. Starmetal is extraordinarily hard, and is equal to adamantine for all purposes (see page 283 of the Dungeon Master's Guide, including overcoming damage reduction or granting damage reduction when used in armor construction. Starmetal also possesses an inherent magical connection to the Material Plane, meaning that weapons made of the alloy are especially effective against creatures from other planes. Weapons made of starmetal deal an extra 1d6 points of damage to any extraplanar creatures while they are on the Material Plane.

Rich presumably extended the extra 1d6 damage effect to undead as a house rule, since it makes more sense story-wise for Roy to have an undead-slaying sword than a fiend-slaying sword. But the starmetal still did bonus damage against Sabine when Roy fought her, so the basic premise still seems to be the same.

[Kish]

^The green glow also appeared for Miko, so I would say no, the basic premise appears very much to have been thrown out the window in favor of something Rich made up which is much less type-dependent. Because the blacksmith said so it is likely the energy is particularly damaging to undead, but there's no in-comic indication that it matters one way or another if the enemy is a fiend or a mortal.



This is why I don't understand why everyone in the #1006 discussion thread is saying the fight is over.
Because people on this forum do that whenever a strip ends with one side having an advantage. You get used to it.

(The discussion threads when Durkon was fighting Malack largely alternated, "Now that Durkon's won..." [next strip went up] "Now that Malack's won..." [next strip went up] "Now that Durkon's won...")

[factotum]

As well as the excellent points already made, shouldn't Durkula have more than 85 hit points anyway? As an undead he gets d12 hit dice, so with an average 7 hit points per level (plus 12 for the first level) he should have 110 hit points, not 85. Unless I'm misunderstanding something?

[SaintRidley]

As well as the excellent points already made, shouldn't Durkula have more than 85 hit points anyway? As an undead he gets d12 hit dice, so with an average 7 hit points per level (plus 12 for the first level) he should have 110 hit points, not 85. Unless I'm misunderstanding something?

Durkon's roughly level 14, which means 12 HP plus 13 levels of d12, averaging roughly 97 hp (d12 average is 6.5, not 7).

[DeliaP]

Literally speaking, yes. But assuming that he IS at 1 HP, any of Durkon's ranged spells will do him in, and he's really in no condition to do much about that.

One of the funny things about the D&D rules is that having taken lots of damage doesn't in anyway impair your actual ability to do anything. In one group I played, "He's 100% effective" was code for "He has 1HP left").

[Doctor_Cthulwho]

One of the funny things about the D&D rules is that having taken lots of damage doesn't in anyway impair your actual ability to do anything. In one group I played, "He's 100% effective" was code for "He has 1HP left").

It hasn't really worked like that in the comic though. We've seen in the past that being reduced to very low amounts of HP tends to be pretty incapacitating. As one would expect.

It'd be a pretty epic feat for Roy to go from barely conscious on the ground, completely disarmed, to being in a position to to slay Durkula in a single round. But who knows? Maybe that's what we'll see because it would be epic.

[factotum]

Durkon's roughly level 14, which means 12 HP plus 13 levels of d12, averaging roughly 97 hp (d12 average is 6.5, not 7).

D'oh. For some reason (probably stupidity and/or advancing age) I was thinking of 2d6 rather than d12. I used level 15 as my estimate because the OP did, though, so him saying Durkula would have only 85 HP at level 15 is just as incorrect as I was...

[rodneyAnonymous]

One of the funny things about the D&D rules is that having taken lots of damage doesn't in anyway impair your actual ability to do anything. In one group I played, "He's 100% effective" was code for "He has 1HP left").

There is a similar running joke among my gaming friends. (There is no difference in effectiveness between full health and barely any health, but if you go from 1 to 0, you suddenly drop to the ground unconscious.)

[Bulldog Psion]

One of the funny things about the D&D rules is that having taken lots of damage doesn't in anyway impair your actual ability to do anything. In one group I played, "He's 100% effective" was code for "He has 1HP left").

I've read that's a deliberate design choice. Otherwise, a character's death becomes more and more foregone as they get damaged, meaning that once someone is hit, they are almost certain to lose and die.

Which might be realistic, but makes for a really, really, really lousy game of heroic adventuring. Most people wouldn't play if the first hit or two meant they were almost certain to see their character spiral inexorably to death, becoming less and and less effective as they did so.

That's no fun. In that case, I doubt I would play, either; or I would just ask the DM to rule that my character died on the first hit, so that I didn't have to go through the painful and unavoidable death spiral of a bleeding, pathetic cripple thrashing around futilely. I get enough futility and helplessness in real life to want it in my escapist entertainment.

(I always cite the duel between Achilles and Hector in Troy for this, too. Up to the point where Hector is actually fatally stabbed, he suffers only extremely light injuries. But he gets progressively more tired out and put at a disadvantage. He's reduced to 1 HP without taking a wound, and is in a way just as dangerous as when he started; but he has been reduced to 1 HP because Achilles set him up for the death-stroke. Then the next stroke actually hits him, reducing him to about -8 HP and dropping.)

[factotum]

Isn't there a rule in D&D 3.5 that people can be stunned or otherwise temporarily disabled if they're hit with a large enough chunk of damage in a single hit?

[Skaven]

Don't forget that Roy is using an undead bane sword.

[Jasdoif]

Isn't there a rule in D&D 3.5 that people can be stunned or otherwise temporarily disabled if they're hit with a large enough chunk of damage in a single hit?There's a variant rule in the DMG where if you take a hit that does at least at least as damage as half your current hit points at the time, you lose a move action on your next turn. It's not a standard rule, though.


Don't forget that Roy is using an undead bane sword.Since an undead bane sword would do extra damage to undead all the time, not just when it's glowing with green energy, I don't think it's an undead bane sword.

[Anukan]

It's been a long time (20+years) since I played D&D thanks for clearing that up.

[Noodz]

I already ran the math on Roy's attack, and yes, he can do awesome damage by dumping his whole bab on power attack. Around 50-ish damage per slash without counting on the green glow and on crit multipliers. Unfortunately, HPoH's AC is probably around 35, so dumping the whole BAB is unwise. A more reasonable attack would do 30-ish damage, reduced to 20 by DR.

And don't forget fast healing 5. It can really add up on a banter-heavy fight, and since it is an extraordinary ability, it works while in gaseous form.

[AlurenDarkfire]

One would think a +5 Starmetal Great sword would overcome a vampire's DR.

[Kish]

Do you mean overcome or ignore?

There's no question of it not overcoming the DR; the sword was clearly able to injure the High Priest of Hel. As far as it ignoring the DR (not removing anything from the damage of each swing), however, "+5" means no more than "+1" would and "Greatsword" isn't relevant at all. The only question is whether a starmetal sword counts as silver, because Durkon has damage reduction 10/silver and magic, meaning that Roy's sword ignores his DR only if it's both magic (which it obviously is) and silver (which it may well not be).

[AlurenDarkfire]

Do you mean overcome or ignore?

There's no question of it not overcoming the DR; the sword was clearly able to injure the High Priest of Hel. As far as it ignoring the DR (not removing anything from the damage of each swing), however, "+5" means no more than "+1" would and "Greatsword" isn't relevant at all. The only question is whether a starmetal sword counts as silver, because Durkon has damage reduction 10/silver and magic, meaning that Roy's sword ignores his DR only if it's both magic (which it obviously is) and silver (which it may well not be).

Yes, I did mean Ignore. Oops.

I was operating under Pathfinder rules as far as the +5 goes. The more powerful the enhancement bonus, the more types you DR you can overcome (silver, cold iron, magic, adamantine, and, I think, alignment). Can't remember if this rules of existed in 3.5, and I'm honestly too tired to look it up.

[Emperordaniel]

Yes, I did mean Ignore. Oops.

I was operating under Pathfinder rules as far as the +5 goes. The more powerful the enhancement bonus, the more types you DR you can overcome (silver, cold iron, magic, adamantine, and, I think, alignment). Can't remember if this rules of existed in 3.5, and I'm honestly too tired to look it up.

That doesn't sound like any 3.5 rule I'm familiar with, so I'm guessing it's a Pathfinder exclusive (I could be wrong, though).

[Hamste]

Isn't there a rule in D&D 3.5 that people can be stunned or otherwise temporarily disabled if they're hit with a large enough chunk of damage in a single hit?

There is a "massive" damage rule in d&d 3.5 and pathfinder (though the pathfinder one has been changed to be a variant). In 3.5 if you take more than 50 damage you have to make a DC 15 fort save or die...unsurprisingly considering how easy 50 damage an attack is, it is usually ignored. Even if it was recognized in the OOTS world though, undead are immune.

[Souhiro]

I think that Durkula will KILL Roy (His usual strategy of fighting is "receive a lot of damage, and pray that the enemy falls before I do")
Durkon will laugh. He has won. His goddess will reign supreme...

Then he get stabbed and exploded

Because he gets impaled, with a greatsword made of starmetal. BY A GOD

A SEXY GOD
A SHOELESS GOD

[Emperordaniel]

There is a "massive" damage rule in d&d 3.5 and pathfinder (though the pathfinder one has been changed to be a variant). In 3.5 if you take more than 50 damage you have to make a DC 15 fort save or die...unsurprisingly considering how easy 50 damage an attack is, it is usually ignored. Even if it was recognized in the OOTS world though, undead are immune.

I believe there was a bonus strip in the second book where, while they were clearing out Xykon's tower, a Good-aligned ancient silver dragon was killed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) by a level one hobgoblin (named Shelby (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0824.html)) due to the Massive Damage rules. Said dragon was later reanimated to serve as Xykon's zombie mount. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html)

I might be mistaken here, since I have yet to get NCftPB. :smallfrown:

[Kish]

Yes, I did mean Ignore. Oops.

I was operating under Pathfinder rules as far as the +5 goes. The more powerful the enhancement bonus, the more types you DR you can overcome (silver, cold iron, magic, adamantine, and, I think, alignment). Can't remember if this rules of existed in 3.5, and I'm honestly too tired to look it up.
It does not. As I said, a +5 sword ignores DR/magic, because it's magic. Only. It doesn't also count as cold iron, silver, adamantine, and every alignment simultaneously for overcoming DR, the way it would in Pathfinder.

[factotum]

Even if it was recognized in the OOTS world though, undead are immune.

Roy isn't undead, though, and it was him I was thinking about considering the pummeling he just got from Durkula. He's clearly not dead, though, so guess that rule is not in effect here.

[Doug Lampert]

Roy isn't undead, though, and it was him I was thinking about considering the pummeling he just got from Durkula. He's clearly not dead, though, so guess that rule is not in effect here.

The massive damage rule is optional in third edition (it's in the DMG and listed there as optional), and the rule is a DC15 fort save to survive.

Roy's fort save is +9 from levels, probably +2-4 from Con, anywhere from +0 to +7 or so from feats and items, and -4 from negative levels. So something from +7 to +16.

In other words, with a -4 from negative levels (included above), Roy may well fail a DC 15 fort save only on a 1. So him living doesn't tell us whether the rule is in use or not.

[Jasdoif]

The massive damage rule is optional in third edition (it's in the DMG and listed there as optional), and the rule is a DC15 fort save to survive.It's in the 3.5 PHB (page 145), and certainly isn't optional there.

[littlebum2002]

There are two massive damage rules in 3.5.

The mandatory rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm) (at least, as mandatory as any rule in 3.5 can be) is that any time you receive at least 50 damage in one attack, you must make a DC 15 fortitude save or die.

Then, there are optional variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/massaveDamageThresholdsAndResults.htm) on this rule which can be used to customize your game.

[theasl]

And don't forget fast healing 5. It can really add up on a banter-heavy fight, and since it is an extraordinary ability, it works while in gaseous form.

Isn't speaking a free action?

[Emperordaniel]

Isn't speaking a free action?

Within reason. There are very few, if any, DMs out there who will allow you to recite Hamlet in the span of six in-game seconds.

[littlebum2002]

Remember, V wasted a round talking before disintegrating the Young Adult Black Dragon.

[factotum]

I always interpreted the whole "speaking is a free action" thing as meaning you can talk without interrupting whatever else you happen to be doing, whether that be casting spells, hitting enemies with sharp objects, or trying to pick a DC 30 lock, not that you could do as much of it as you liked without time restrictions.

[Quild]

I believe there was a bonus strip in the second book where, while they were clearing out Xykon's tower, a Good-aligned ancient silver dragon was killed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) by a level one hobgoblin (named Shelby (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0824.html)) due to the Massive Damage rules. Said dragon was later reanimated to serve as Xykon's zombie mount. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html)

I might be mistaken here, since I have yet to get NCftPB. :smallfrown:

IIRC, the explanation given in the strip is that Shelby did a x3 critical hit with his axe. "Right into the jugular" I believe.
I don't remember that the dragon was specifically hurt by RC and Xykon, so the massive damage rules or rule of fun may be the only explanation here.
Shelby went really lucky to deal those 50 damage though. Or not.

Without the green glow, Roy however, just can't inflict 50 damages to HPoH. His max damage is:
2d6+5 => 17
24 STR => +7
Power attack => +28
Weapon Specialization => +2
HPoH's DR => -10
That's a total of 44.

I was under the impression that it was impossible to sacrifice more than 5 bab for Power Attack when I begun my calculation, but I read something different now O_o.