Pathfinder Advice: Too Many Casters

[punchbeard]

Hey all. I have a question about the redundancy of adding a wizard to my current group. I was previously the group tank, but he's gone, and I want to try a new type of class. At first I thought, "why be a tank when I can conjure tanks?", and looked at the conjuration wizard. However, we already have 3 PC casters, so I'm concerned about combat synergy and role diversity among the PCs. I don't need to be "the most powerful" among the players. I want to help the group dynamic and avoid bumping heads.

The PCs include:
- Sorcerer = Arcane damage. New player, but is quickly learning the power of elemental ranged touch attacks.
- Bard = Buffer and healer. New player who likes non-combat situations.
- Swashbuckler/Gunslinger = Party face, and ranged damage. Somehow uses charisma to boost AC, but cannot tank.
- Druid = "Swiss army knife" caster. Doesn't like getting his hands dirty, and prefers casting environmental effects from a safe distance.
- Rogue = Flanking (?). New-ish player. For story reasons, she could swap out for a new character soon, so this spot is a wildcard role.
- Barbarian = Melee tank. This was my character until now. Intended to focus on debuffs, since sorcerer and druid will eventually outrank damage.

Other things to consider:
- We're pirates (Skull & Shackles), so lawful-only classes aren't available.
- Sometimes we have access to low-level ally NPCs, including a cleric (backup healer), fighter (damage sponge w/ reach), and various disposable sailors.
- Fights usually occur on boat decks and are therefore relatively small, so AOE spells could hit allies.
- We found some pretty sweet weapons and armor, but the other PCs aren't proficient.

So, my worry is that with a druid, bard, sorcerer, and part-time cleric, throwing in a wizard might have diminishing returns. Among PCs, we would then have 4 squishy casters and 2 lightweight martial characters, and someone needs to keep them alive. On the other hand, we don't currently have any Int-based characters; I considered Summoner, but then most of us would be fighting over who gets the Charisma-boosting items. Perhaps a melee alchemist could fill both a utility and semi-tank role, although I've heard very mixed opinions on the alchemist's effectiveness. Are there any good multiclass options?

Thoughts?

[ThinkMinty]

There's a few options off the top of my head.

1) Melee-Magus. You can do the classic Scimitar+Shocking Grasp routine, plus True Strike+Combat Maneuvers can be a lot of fun. Here's a guide (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/-walter-s-lab/embedded-magus), since I know nothing about the Magus from experience.

2) Bloodrager. Pure chaotic flavor, you'll have fun with it. Extra movement can't hurt, and spells are sweet. Two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377753-CTP-s-Guide-to-the-Bloodrager) guides (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uV52XseHRUMKOM-fLF6oXwkF-bcmmPk93XR8u02-sYw/edit#) for help. Full BAB, too.

3) Brawler. An adaptable martial character with the flexibility fight with anything they can get their hands on. Guide is here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NHhkx9fkI00i2_p8WxtWlEGPRdK4L4qVlkJ-JrHxmy8/edit?usp=sharing).

4) Ninja. Hilariously, a stealth-Ninja would be great on a pirate ship. Skillmonkey your way into ocean skills, and use invisible sneak attacking to shank mother****ers at your leisure. Plus no one will expect a ninja, especially if you don't dress like one.

5) Slayer. A Rogue/Ranger hybrid more suited to combat. Standard, or Stygian if you want to blend into self-created darkness. Excellent if you fight a lot of one thing.

All of my suggestions can help your flank-Rogue, and the last two benefit a lot from mutual-flank shenanigans.

[Rainshine]

Alchemists are fun, in my opinion. OK group utility with if you take infusions and have several good variant builds -- natural weapons, mad bomber, etc.
If you're interested in being able to take a couple hits and still help out the group, let me recommend the DSP Path of War Warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder) (Or the Psionic Aegis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis), for that matter). Melee types who still gets a number of fun tools through their maneuvers/powers, both key off Int, both can take a few blows and make some miss.

[Gnaeus]

Caster is fine. You've got 3 muggles, 3 casters. You have a front liner (barb) and 3 others who can melee (rogue swashbuckler, Druid). You have ranged damage (sorc, gunslinger). Buffs (bard). Heals (bard, Druid). Skills (rogue, bard). Sounds like you have a bit of everything. Play what you want. Wizard should always find a way to be useful

[nedz]

Play what you want to play. In terms of party balance they are missing a front line, but it sounds like you have NPCs for that.

Caster is fine. You've got 3 muggles, 3 casters. You have a front liner (barb) and 3 others who can melee (rogue swashbuckler, Druid). You have ranged damage (sorc, gunslinger). Buffs (bard). Heals (bard, Druid). Skills (rogue, bard). Sounds like you have a bit of everything. Play what you want. Wizard should always find a way to be useful

The Barbarian is dead, hence the question.

[Psyren]

If you're replacing the barbarian then I agree, you would be light on melee if you do and the ranged classes would have to expend resources on keeping themselves out of harm's way instead of doing what they're made to do.

If you didn't already have a druid I'd recommend that - being the tank means fighting up close, and in a seafaring campaign, sometimes the thing you need to get close to will obligingly be on decks, while sometimes it will be in the sky or in the water. A druid can easily handle all three, and save any other classes that fall off the boat or are pulled off too. You also appear to be missing an intelligence-based class to make your knowledge and memory checks.

Based on that, I would second Rainshine's suggestions (Warder or Aegis) or, if only Paizo is allowed, I'd be a Magus or melee Alchemist.

[Vhaidara]

I recommend staying true to your name: dwarven white haired witch, punch people with your beard.

[grarrrg]

I recommend staying true to your name: dwarven white haired witch, punch people with your beard.

I seriously cannot "^THIS^" enough.

What level are you at by the way?
Low-level punch-beard Witch would be squishy, if we're talking level 8+ then we can have Eldritch Knight-type stuff going on.

[noob]

If they are level 8 and more do not forget priests can do nearly everything a wizard can do and does not needs to find the spells: they divinely have all the spells(so you can just decide that tomorrow you will build a castle with some stone walls or that it is the time to burn the forest filled with animals and plants made by a druid or that it is time to create your exterior army(it works way better with priests since the concept is that they are your Friends, Allies and employees and so the GM have less RP reasons to mess with you))

[Honest Tiefling]

If they are level 8 and more do not forget priests can do nearly everything a wizard can do and does not needs to find the spells: they divinely have all the spells(so you can just decide that tomorrow you will build a castle with some stone walls or that it is the time to burn the forest filled with animals and plants made by a druid or that it is time to create your exterior army(it works way better with priests since the concept is that they are your Friends, Allies and employees and so the GM have less RP reasons to mess with you))

Unless Skulls and Shackles is something far different then what I imagine, I doubt there are many forests or even a large amount of stone on the oceans. Also, do you mean Warpriest, or Cleric?

[frost890]

With it being Pathfinder, I would go with a Summoner or a Cleric. The Summoner would focus you on things other then blasting and your pet can be the tank. A cleric with negative energy burst on the small area of a ships deck. S/he will kill things quick. Just take the feat that lets you leave out your friends. A cleric can use most armors and still ask their god for a couple of friends to come and be the meat shields. If you still wish to be a Mage you can simply focus on things that the other wizard does not. It sounds like you are getting to the point in game that the meat shield is less of a requirement.

[ThinkMinty]

That druid needs to be using Wild Shape unless they don't have it for some reason. I'm not saying optimally, I'm just wondering why they're ignoring one of their best class features.

Anyways: Bloodrager, Brawler, Magus, Ninja, or if you're really hurting for a tank and the Druid is being a wuss about turning into a giant octopus, Warpriest.

[punchbeard]

What level are you at by the way?
About to hit level 7. We are mainly sticking to Core Rulebook, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Equipment, Advanced Player's Guide, and Advanced Class Guide. Outside of that, assume that most paizo feats are allowed, but no 3rd party stuff.


I recommend staying true to your name: dwarven white haired witch, punch people with your beard.
Funnily enough, Punchbeard was once my character from a Shadowrun campaign, with a similar concept: dwarf using an augmented beard as a 3rd arm. But that's a topic for another time.


That druid needs to be using Wild Shape unless they don't have it for some reason. I'm not saying optimally, I'm just wondering why they're ignoring one of their best class features.
Originally, we had two druids, one for tanking and one for ranged spells. However, the player with the tank druid left the group partway through the campaign. The other had already invested in a less combat-oriented build, and didn't want to retrain into a different role. So far, he uses wild shape to turn into a bird to avoid being hit.



1) Melee-Magus. You can do the classic Scimitar+Shocking Grasp routine, plus True Strike+Combat Maneuvers can be a lot of fun.
Hmm... I've heard mixed things about the magus, but it might be what I'm looking for at the moment. I skimmed over the magus spell list, and while they can't summon, I do see a variety of utility and damage spells there. There are also some forums about magus maneuvering/tank feasibility, and it seems like a viable option to me. Remember, I don't need to be the "best" PC, just something to fill a gap. This might be the way to go.

[grarrrg]

That druid needs to be using Wild Shape unless they don't have it for some reason. I'm not saying optimally, I'm just wondering why they're ignoring one of their best class features.

It's very possible the Druid tanked their physical stats, in which case Wild Shape won't help much.

[Spore]

Warpriests can replace a fully fledged tank no problem. Melee oriented clerics can as well but they require much preparation and I for one absolute love the Warpriest class. A friend of mine also made a Cleric 7 into Holy Vindicator basically replacing his own Paladin's classes. He chose Alignment Channel (Evil) because our campaign was basically composes of demons devils and undead.

I see that you have a backup healer but I for one despise having to rely on NPCs.

[punchbeard]

I see that you have a backup healer but I for one despise having to rely on NPCs.

Same here, but I also don't like relying on the NPCs for melee power. Not every battle occurs at sea, and when it's just the 6 PCs, we need role diversity. I'd rather have 1 healer than 0 serious melee tanks. As a magus, I could best use the fancy medium (and eventually heavy) armor that we occasionally find (since the druid won't wear it), combine with mirror image, and be viable as a close-range hitter.

I'm thinking of going as a half-elf. I considered elf, but I'll need constitution. Assuming I won't multiclass, I won't need the Multitalented racial trait. Should I swap that for Arcane Training or Fey Thoughts?

[ThinkMinty]

Same here, but I also don't like relying on the NPCs for melee power. Not every battle occurs at sea, and when it's just the 6 PCs, we need role diversity. I'd rather have 1 healer than 0 serious melee tanks. As a magus, I could best use the fancy medium (and eventually heavy) armor that we occasionally find (since the druid won't wear it), combine with mirror image, and be viable as a close-range hitter.

I'm thinking of going as a half-elf. I considered elf, but I'll need constitution. Assuming I won't multiclass, I won't need the Multitalented racial trait. Should I swap that for Arcane Training or Fey Thoughts?

Here's the guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus), to help that along. Arcane Mark and/or Ray of Frost up in your Spell Combat every turn.

[punchbeard]

Arcane Mark and/or Ray of Frost up in your Spell Combat every turn.

Everyone keeps touting Arcane Mark as a must-have spell for magus. Why is this? Is it good for keeping track of invisible opponents, or does it have another, more common purpose?

Also, if I go half-elf, what do you guys think about the Drow Magic alternate racial trait? It replaces adaptability (skill bonus to 1 skill) and multitalented (I'm not multiclassing. Then, I can use an arcana to get a tiny scorpion familiar, cast darkness on it, then let it sneak around in crowds of enemies. Risky but fun. There could also be a tactical advantage to casting fly on it.

[meemaas]

Everyone keeps touting Arcane Mark as a must-have spell for magus. Why is this? Is it good for keeping track of invisible opponents, or does it have another, more common purpose?

Also, if I go half-elf, what do you guys think about the Drow Magic alternate racial trait? It replaces adaptability (skill bonus to 1 skill) and multitalented (I'm not multiclassing. Then, I can use an arcana to get a tiny scorpion familiar, cast darkness on it, then let it sneak around in crowds of enemies. Risky but fun. There could also be a tactical advantage to casting fly on it.

Arcane mark is a melee touch attack when used on an enemy, thus allowing you to spellstrike with it. It's basically a free attack at your highest BAB without expending spell slots.

[punchbeard]

Arcane mark is a melee touch attack when used on an enemy, thus allowing you to spellstrike with it. It's basically a free attack at your highest BAB without expending spell slots.

Sure, I get why it works, but what's the point of using it? It doesn't inflict damage or debuffs.

[Pex]

Combat oriented Oracle, perhaps. Battle Mystery is typical but others do well if you prefer their Revelations, such as Ancestor, Dark Tapestry, or Metal. Healing on the side, choose the spells you want. Buffs, remove afflictions, attack spells. Grace and Blessing of Fervor are superb spells for Oracles to have.

[Kurald Galain]

Hmm... I've heard mixed things about the magus, but it might be what I'm looking for at the moment. I skimmed over the magus spell list, and while they can't summon, I do see a variety of utility and damage spells there. There are also some forums about magus maneuvering/tank feasibility, and it seems like a viable option to me. Remember, I don't need to be the "best" PC, just something to fill a gap. This might be the way to go.

Note that starting from level three, the Magus can add wizard spells to his list, which includes summons.

The Magus is one of the most maneuverable melee classes in the game (with pounce at level four, in-class flight and haste, and teleport pounce at level 10), and it has a decent array of defensive buffs that allow tanking (most notably Mirror Image and Displacement).

If interested, check out the guide in my signature.

[meemaas]

Sure, I get why it works, but what's the point of using it? It doesn't inflict damage or debuffs.

Your free attack still does damage and being a cantrip it is fully unlimited. It's like having a haste that stacks with haste.

[Aldrakan]

Sure, I get why it works, but what's the point of using it? It doesn't inflict damage or debuffs.

Basically it lets you Zorro people, except you actually hit them when you do it. It's a bit goofy as it's not really a conventional offensive touch spell and specifies that you have to etch it (i.e. you would actually have to write the mark out on them rather than it magically appearing on touch, which you are somehow doing in the course of a melee attack), but officially it does grant you a bonus attack. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a GM disallowing it based on "That's Stupid" grounds.
It's the only melee touch spell cantrip on the magus list, although there are ways to get others.

[grarrrg]

Basically it lets you Zorro people, except you actually hit them when you do it. It's a bit goofy as it's not really a conventional offensive touch spell and specifies that you have to etch it (i.e. you would actually have to write the mark out on them rather than it magically appearing on touch, which you are somehow doing in the course of a melee attack)

Well, you brought up Zorro, he does the 3-sword-swipe 'Z' pretty fast and efficient.
Arcane Mark doesn't specify that it has to be a "fancy" mark, sooooo...

"My mark is the letter 'I'. Sometimes it looks like a '/', sometimes it looks like a '\', and other times it looks like a '-'"

[Aldrakan]

Well, you brought up Zorro, he does the 3-sword-swipe 'Z' pretty fast and efficient.
Arcane Mark doesn't specify that it has to be a "fancy" mark, sooooo...

"My mark is the letter 'I'. Sometimes it looks like a '/', sometimes it looks like a '\', and other times it looks like a '-'"

Oh absolutely. Not saying the DM will veto (obviously I don't know them) or that they should, just that they might.
Personally I got Two-World Magic for Touch of Fatigue, but that's just because I felt it made more sense for my character (slightly grim, former wizard-in-training). Could make perfect sense for a more flamoyant pirate type.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Basically it lets you Zorro people, except you actually hit them when you do it. It's a bit goofy as it's not really a conventional offensive touch spell and specifies that you have to etch it (i.e. you would actually have to write the mark out on them rather than it magically appearing on touch, which you are somehow doing in the course of a melee attack), but officially it does grant you a bonus attack. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a GM disallowing it based on "That's Stupid" grounds.
It's the only melee touch spell cantrip on the magus list, although there are ways to get others.

Hexcrafter Magus get Brand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/brand) since it is a [Curse] spell, it is basically arcane mark, but it deals a single point of damage so if your DM rules against using Arcane Mark for the extra attack, well you have an option that is an attack spell.

[punchbeard]

If interested, check out the guide in my signature.

Thanks, that's quite the detailed guide you have there. I'll probably rely on shield, vanish, and mirror image for defense, and then shocking grasp, true strike, and frigid touch for offense. Maybe open with grease. But why Frostbite? I guess it's nice to know about, but I don't want to rely on a 1x/level spell.


It's the only melee touch spell cantrip on the magus list, although there are ways to get others.

Chances are the GM will disallow it for that reason. Also, I believe that the close range arcana only applies to rays, and limits to one ray. I'll leave the ray spells to our sorcerer, while the bard heals and buffs with haste. I'm the melee guy, so no rays for me. Probably.

Alright, here's my build so far:

Half-elf magus, level 7. All favored class bonuses into extra HP.
Ability scores, with 20 point buy: STR 16 (15+1 at level 4), DEX 14, CON 16 (14+2 from half-elf), INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 7.
Racial traits: Default except with Drow Magic. It's a meh ability, but I'm not multiclassing, and the other casters can take care of the wands.
Gear: The barbarian's +1 breastplate, and a cutlass, which is identical to scimitar but fits the campaign theme.
Campaign trait: Ship's Surgeon, for story reasons.
Level 3 arcana: Familiar, greensting scorpion (1/2 my HP, tiny w/ natural armor AC, boosts my initiative). In combat, I think that effectively gives me a sickening poison attack on/after my turn. I can also drop it and cast darkness if I'm surrounded. It has +15 stealth, so maybe it can sneak around in combat? I'm unsure how that would work.
Feats: Improved initiative. Total initiative = +2 (ability) + 4 (scorpion) +4 (feat) = +10.

So then, I need 1 more trait, 4 feats (3, 5, bonus at 5, 7), and a level 6 arcana. Power attack probably won't work with +8 CMB. I'm considering Empower Spell. What about improving combat maneuvers? I hear the magus is good at that.

[Aldrakan]

But why Frostbite? I guess it's nice to know about, but I don't want to rely on a 1x/level spell.


Well 1x/level is still going to end up being active a lot more than Shocking Grasp. It fatigues with no saving throw, if you go by the link at the bottom it's not a held charge so you can cast it without interfering with other casting and probably even use it in conjunction with another spell in spellstrike (come on, even if it never happens, you know that you want to know it's possible for you to crit on a spellstrike with Frostbite, Chill Touch, and Shocking Grasp simultaneously), and it deals nice total bonus damage, especially at higher levels. It being nonlethal damage only comes up for a few opponents or in case of in-combat healing, and makes it easier for you to take prisoners.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=513?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#25604

[punchbeard]

Well 1x/level is still going to end up being active a lot more than Shocking Grasp.... It being nonlethal damage only comes up for a few opponents or in case of in-combat healing, and makes it easier for you to take prisoners.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=513?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#25604

Maybe I should mention that the campaign only goes up to level 14. By then, it averages 17-18 nonlethal damage per hit, but Shocking Grasp already averages the same amount. Fatiguing an enemy drops their melee damage by 1, AC by 1, and CMB by 2. Also, I think we'll run into enemies with resistance or immunity versus nonlethal. I suppose it's okay for very specific situations.

By the way, I get the advantage of Magical Lineage + Intensified Spell. But everyone seems to use it for pure offense. Are there good alternatives for a defensive play style?

[Aldrakan]

Maybe I should mention that the campaign only goes up to level 14. By then, it averages 17-18 nonlethal damage per hit, but Shocking Grasp already averages the same amount. Fatiguing an enemy drops their melee damage by 1, AC by 1, and CMB by 2. Also, I think we'll run into enemies with resistance or immunity versus nonlethal. I suppose it's okay for very specific situations.

Okay but Shocking Grasp you can only use once per casting (Although by level 10+ you should probably be using it Heightened, so it deals 35 on average), whereas if you can use the whole thing at level 10 Frostbite gives you 1d6x10+100 total damage. And you can't use Grasp more than once a turn, whereas by level 14 you're attacking with Frostbite to 3-4 times a turn (2 from BAB, 1 from Haste, 1 free attack from touch spell).
It's also a very low opportunity cost: lvl 1 spell slot, you can cast it before combat, and it doesn't really interfere with anything else you're doing. You don't need to pick one or the other.

[punchbeard]

Good point.

Also, I realized that Drow Magic is kind of pointless, since maguses (magi?) can cast dancing lights and darkness anyway, and faerie fire seems too specific to be useful. The trait is better suited to a half-elf ranger rather than an arcane class. I swapped multitalented for Fey Thoughts instead, which gives me two more class skills. I'm thinking diplomacy and perception.

For other feats, I'm considering additional traits. I like Survivor (+1 initiative and sense motive is a class skill). There's also Metamagic Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/metamagic-master), although I'm not sure how it differs from Magical Lineage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage), other than being a regional trait rather than a magical trait.

[ThinkMinty]

Sure, I get why it works, but what's the point of using it? It doesn't inflict damage or debuffs.

It's an extra Full BAB attack, for free. That's the point.

[punchbeard]

It's an extra Full BAB attack, for free. That's the point.
Right. I'm not 100% sure the GM will allow it.

Feats will include improved initiative, probably extra arcana, and additional traits. For traits, I've decided on Fey Thoughts (alternate racial), Ship's Surgeon (campaign), Survivor (regional), Alert (combat), and Magical Lineage (magic). This means I get 4 more class skills, skill bonuses, and a 1x/day automatic 10+4+4+2+1=21 on initiative.

I get that maximizing the shocking grasp weapon gives 10d6 electric + 3+ 1d6 slashing per hit, which is awesome. But what about builds that favor combat maneuvers? Is taking Combat Expertise worth the feat?

[Kurald Galain]

Right. I'm not 100% sure the GM will allow it.
If so, then it's worth it to get another touch cantrip on your list, one way or another.


I get that maximizing the shocking grasp weapon gives 10d6 electric + 3+ 1d6 slashing per hit, which is awesome. But what about builds that favor combat maneuvers? Is taking Combat Expertise worth the feat?
The preferred method for a Magus is to cast True Strike to land any maneuver you want (if needed, take a wand of TS and the Wand Wielder arcana), and either use a reach weapon or avoid the OA with Vanish or Mirror Image.


Maybe I should mention that the campaign only goes up to level 14. By then, it averages 17-18 nonlethal damage per hit, but Shocking Grasp already averages the same amount. Fatiguing an enemy drops their melee damage by 1, AC by 1, and CMB by 2. Also, I think we'll run into enemies with resistance or immunity versus nonlethal. I suppose it's okay for very specific situations.
Well, at level 14 you'll have two iterative attacks per round (plus a haste attack plus the one from casting your spell) then Shocking Grasp + Intensify Spell will deal 4x weapon damage + 10d6, whereas Frostbite will deal 4x weapon damage + 4d6 + 56.

You'd be surprised how few things in the game are immune to nonlethal (except undead, obviously). On the other hand, I've found that when needing to capture or restrain someone (for interrogation) dealing a lot of nonlethal is a great method to keep them alive.

[punchbeard]

The preferred method for a Magus is to cast True Strike to land any maneuver you want (if needed, take a wand of TS and the Wand Wielder arcana), and either use a reach weapon or avoid the OA with Vanish or Mirror Image.

Oh. Right. Forgot about that.

Hey, what about using an arcana for spell blending, then grabbing summon creature or twilight knife?

[cfalcon]

In society play I've seen some Oracles set up pretty tanky too- decent melee damage, pretty solid AC. They have to self buff a bit though. Doesn't help your Charisma Clash though.

I will point out that a summoner doesn't need to chase Cha necessarily. If you focus on buff spells and non-casting actions, you will be seeking other stats and helping your Eidolon and party members stay strong.

[Kurald Galain]

Hey, what about using an arcana for spell blending, then grabbing summon creature or twilight knife?

Sounds like a good trick. Free flanking each turn is good to have.

Note that the in-class Blade Spirit's Tutor gives a similar bonus, albeit without the knife's damage.

[punchbeard]

Sounds like a good trick. Free flanking each turn is good to have.

Note that the in-class Blade Spirit's Tutor gives a similar bonus, albeit without the knife's damage.

I like the knife. With the metamagicked shocking grasp scimitar (henceforth referred to as "lightsaber"), that's gonna stack per hit. The total damage is ridiculous though. That's 10d6 electric + 1d6 slashing + 1d4 force + (level/4)d6 force. With the scimitar's critical range... wow.

On the other hand, why not use the metamagicking to boost vampiric touch instead? At level 10, it has the same dice as shocking grasp. Although I'm not 100% sure about "You gain temporary hit points equal to the damage you deal." Does that include base weapon damage?

EDIT: Vampiric Touch is level 3, Shocking Grasp is level 1. That's why.

By the way, I spoke with the GM. Sadly, no free attack from Arcane Mark.

[punchbeard]

Okay, I think I got it. With a 20-point buy, you take STR 14(+1 at 8,12,16,20), DEX 14, INT 15(+1 at 4), CON 16, WIS 12, CHA 7.

Racial traits (half-elf): Elven immunities, Keen senses, Low-light vision, Elf blood, Fey thoughts (Perception & Diplomacy), Adaptable (Spellcraft)

Other traits: Alert, [campaign trait], Additional traits: Survivor, Magical Lineage (shocking grasp).

Feats: Eschew materials (unless GM houserules otherwise), Improved initiative, Lunge/Lunging Spell Touch, Additional traits, Extra arcana, Lightning Reflexes, Lunging Spell Touch/Lunge, [bonus level 11 feat], [level 13 feat], [level 15 feat], [level 17 feat], [bonus level 17 feat], [level 19 feat].

Arcana: Familiar, Empower Spell, [Level 9 arcana], Extra arcana: Spell blending, Hasted Assault, [level 15 arcana], [level 18 arcana].

By waiting until level 11 to get spell blending, you can get 2 level 3 spells (e.g. Twilight knife, Summon monster III).

[punchbeard]

The Magus is one of the most maneuverable melee classes in the game (with pounce at level four, in-class flight and haste, and teleport pounce at level 10), and it has a decent array of defensive buffs that allow tanking (most notably Mirror Image and Displacement).

If interested, check out the guide in my signature.

You mention fly as a useful spell, but also recommend gargoyle for the monstrous physique I. If the gargoyle has a fly speed already, what's the point of the fly spell? They're both level 3; I don't see the advantage of casting a fly spell versus turning into a flying monster.

[grarrrg]

You mention fly as a useful spell, but also recommend gargoyle for the monstrous physique I. If the gargoyle has a fly speed already, what's the point of the fly spell? They're both level 3; I don't see the advantage of casting a fly spell versus turning into a flying monster.

Monstrous Physique can get you a Fly Speed of 30ft. Average Maneuverability, and can only be cast on yourself.

Fly can get you a Fly Speed of 60ft. Good Maneuverability, and can be cast on anyone.

Also, when Monstrous Physique ends, if you are in the air, you instantly plummet.
When Fly ends if you are in the air you get an automatic Feather Fall for a few rounds.


So as far as usefulness, Monstrous Physique is the better 'combat' spell, as you can get more bonuses than just flying.
But if your goal is more 'travel' then Fly wins hands down.

[punchbeard]

So as far as usefulness, Monstrous Physique is the better 'combat' spell, as you can get more bonuses than just flying.
But if your goal is more 'travel' then Fly wins hands down.

I guess I was just thinking in terms of combat scenarios. Buffing with Shield and Monstrous Physique (and/or Mirror Image) gets you +6 AC and 20% miss chance, but it takes 2(or 3) turns when spellstriking could have been used - although with lunge and spell combat, you still get the (arcana-enhanced) melee attacks.

[punchbeard]

Besides, what's cooler than becoming a group of illusory gargoyles?

[ThinkMinty]

Besides, what's cooler than becoming a group of illusory gargoyles?

Becoming a group of actual gargoyles.

[oxybe]

I cannot stress ninja 3 / sorceror 4 (going into arcane trickster) enough for someone in pathfinder looking for something different: a nice mix of stealth+social skills supplemented with magic. The ninja's stealth abilities are as good as any rogue's but the nigh-instant vanish is incredible as it can be used to either give you easy sneak attacks or a way to shake off enemies via escaping. It also works off your sorceror's charisma to get more daily uses.

With your spells, focusing on utility and illusion/enchantment you can make your own hiding places in a pinch, create a distraction or be the ultimate sneak, complimenting your bluffs with impeccable disguises and enchanting words. Silent Image is a fantastic tool for the stealthy character wanting to stay hidden in plain sight, as you can make a corner look empty while you silently observe.

You basically become the magical rogue, mixing natural magic talent with learned skills to solve problems and get yourself out of them, and with the right campaign traits (magical knack, one caster class +2 caster lvl, as long as it doesn't raise it beyond character level) or feat/gear choices your caster level can take little to no hit, keeping your spells just as potent as your teammates, if your choice of spells a bit limited.

if it comes to combat, the level 2 spell Fiery Shuriken is your new best friend : a fantastic multi-hit ranged touch spell that can have sneak attack dice applied to it. dragonblooded and orcblooded sorcs even get to add their damage bonuses to this sneak attack (not fire dragonblooded would want to get a metamagic rod to change the element), as SA deals the same type of damage as the originating hit:

"You call forth two fiery projectiles resembling shuriken, plus one more for every two caster levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of eight shuriken at 15th level), which hover in front of you. When these shuriken appear, you can launch some or all of them at the same target or different targets. Each shuriken requires a ranged touch attack roll to hit and deals 1d8 points of fire damage. You provoke no attacks of opportunity when launching them."

at Sorc 4/ninja3/arctrick7 you're looking at about 7 ranged touch attacks that deal 1d8+5d6+6 damage so 28 on average, or 196 avg damage if all attacks hit, from a single, un-metamagic'd 2nd level spell slot. If you can get to level15, arctrick8, you're looking at 8 instances of 32.5 damage, or about a potential 260.

Even at level 7, with a caster level of 7 you're looking at 4x(1d8+2d6+3) or ~58 damage with the single casting.

You also have access to various buffs that casters would have access too like mirror image, displacement, etc... to help you in combat.

So yeah: Magical Ninjas. They rock.

[Kurald Galain]

I cannot stress ninja 3 / sorceror 4 (going into arcane trickster) enough

With the recent splatbooks, make that ninja 2 / sorcerer 4 / arcane trickster, and the feat accomplished sneak attacker. :smallcool:

[Hunter Noventa]

Hexcrafter Magus get Brand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/brand) since it is a [Curse] spell, it is basically arcane mark, but it deals a single point of damage so if your DM rules against using Arcane Mark for the extra attack, well you have an option that is an attack spell.

I cannot recommend this highly enough. I played a Hexcrafter Magus and it was some of the most fun I've ever had. For almost NO cost you get access to several new spells, including Brand as above, and other fun things like Bestow Curse, and access to Witch Hexes. Like Flight, which I imagine would be very useful on a ship, and it also gives a swim bonus.

[Brion]

Combat oriented Oracle, perhaps. Battle Mystery is typical but others do well if you prefer their Revelations, such as Ancestor, Dark Tapestry, or Metal. Healing on the side, choose the spells you want. Buffs, remove afflictions, attack spells. Grace and Blessing of Fervor are superb spells for Oracles to have.

I will second this. I am currently playing a 16th level Oracle with the Battle Mystery and I absolutely love it. I feel like I have a tool for every situation, pump out massive damage, a fair number of skills (4 + Int + human). It's a really well-rounded class. If you're better at optimizing than I am, you can really steamroll some encounters.

[oxybe]

With the recent splatbooks, make that ninja 2 / sorcerer 4 / arcane trickster, and the feat accomplished sneak attacker. :smallcool:

I'm guessing that feat adds a sneak attack die? Haven't seen any of the newer books, partially because since our last campaign ended almost half a year ago, partially because it also stopped as I started working shifts that stopped me from gaming entirely.

So i haven't really seen new books yet.

Still though, I don't know how i feel about using your level 3 or 5 feat slot for an extra sneak attack die when it could go towards weapon finesse (for melee touch spells), Improved initiative (get that first round sneak attack + ninja vanish) or some other more generally useful feat early game. I can see taking it later though. considering that the one feat can potentially add up to 8d6+8 damage (avg 36) damage per casting, it's a solid feat.

[punchbeard]

There are a lot of good ideas here. So far, I'm leaning toward lunging magus, because they seem good for melee and combat maneuvers. However, I'm going to rephrase the original question here:

The party has 3 casters and 2 non-tank hitters. None of them can survive long in melee range. We tend to fight groups of enemies rather than lone bosses. Other than a barbarian, what is a good class to complement this group?

No lawful-only classes. The campaign ends at level 14. Also, I would prefer a non-charisma-dependent class, but it's okay to go with one.

[punchbeard]

if only Paizo is allowed, I'd be a Magus or melee Alchemist.

Would the melee alchemist need to be a vivisectionist? What are the tradeoffs between magus and alchemist, in terms of being the person on the front lines?

[Azoth]

You could always go Lore Warden Fighter with a generic Trip Build. D10 HD, 4+Int skills, beastly at CMBs. Sure you only get light armor prof, but decent Dex/con and you will be fine.

Basic premise is control your reach so no one can pass you. Keep them flat-backed and in pain. Another option is to go Dirty Trick focused and just keep them blind, entangled, ect so your non tanks can take them down more easily.

[punchbeard]

You could always go Lore Warden Fighter with a generic Trip Build. D10 HD, 4+Int skills, beastly at CMBs. Sure you only get light armor prof, but decent Dex/con and you will be fine.

Basic premise is control your reach so no one can pass you. Keep them flat-backed and in pain. Another option is to go Dirty Trick focused and just keep them blind, entangled, ect so your non tanks can take them down more easily.

I looked into Lore Master and I'm not sold on it. Is that good against crowds? Limiting to light armor means a drop in AC, and the Know thy Enemy thing doesn't seem that helpful in the kinds of battles against waves of medium-level enemies.

Now I'm wondering why people keep recommending alchemist, especially over magus. What makes it so special? When I compare them, I don't see a significant advantage:
Magus
+ Gets medium & heavy armors
+ Get free attack from spellstrike
+ Martial weapon proficiency
+ Can spell recall
- Poor reflex saves

Alchemist
- Extracts and mutagens require standard actions (edit: potion glutton fixes this)
- Mutagen buffs don't stack
+ Poisons are useful
- Poor will saves
+ # Bombs per day + # Extracts per day > # Magus spells per day. This is probably the only real advantage I can see.

[Azoth]

Lore Warden is good for CMB focused builds. Tripping and Dirty Trick being the two strongest combat maneuvers you can level against the widest variety of enemies.

Tripping means most enemies waste a move action to stand up from prone (provoking an AoO and thus a free hit from everyone who threatens them). You can trip in place of an attack so at lvl 8 that is two enemies prone from your full attack, and anyone who provokes an AoO from you for their actions is going down as well.

Dirty Trick is a pick your debuff style maneuver. Entangled is a go to until you get the higher end Dirty Trick feats which increase the effect with a second successful Dirty Trick. It is a move action to remove your Debuff that will eventually eat a standard action if you go far enough down the chain. There is a build that uses it to completely shut down any enemy that they use Dirty Trick on.

Lore Warden also combos nicely with several other Fighter Archetypes.

[punchbeard]

Lore Warden is good for CMB focused builds. Tripping and Dirty Trick being the two strongest combat maneuvers you can level against the widest variety of enemies.

Tripping means most enemies waste a move action to stand up from prone (provoking an AoO and thus a free hit from everyone who threatens them). You can trip in place of an attack so at lvl 8 that is two enemies prone from your full attack, and anyone who provokes an AoO from you for their actions is going down as well.

Dirty Trick is a pick your debuff style maneuver. Entangled is a go to until you get the higher end Dirty Trick feats which increase the effect with a second successful Dirty Trick. It is a move action to remove your Debuff that will eventually eat a standard action if you go far enough down the chain. There is a build that uses it to completely shut down any enemy that they use Dirty Trick on.

Lore Warden also combos nicely with several other Fighter Archetypes.

Suppose though I tried feral alchemist, then use enlarge person. I have a natural 3-hit full attack, and then can use reach to make up to 3 trip attempts. Plus, alchemist is less specialized than Lore Warden (therefore more flexible) and frost/force bombs can help with crowd control.
Now that I think about it, alchemist might be a better option than magus for what I'm trying to do.

[punchbeard]

I will point out that a summoner doesn't need to chase Cha necessarily. If you focus on buff spells and non-casting actions, you will be seeking other stats and helping your Eidolon and party members stay strong.

How would this work? I thought that the summoner would heavily rely on charisma. Low charisma means a lower level cap, and less access to party buffs.
I suppose you could have a melee or ranged weapon summoner, and just forego all of the summoner class mechanics, although you'd be compensating with a limited number of feats.

[grarrrg]

How would this work? I thought that the summoner would heavily rely on charisma. Low charisma means a lower level cap, and less access to party buffs.
I suppose you could have a melee or ranged weapon summoner, and just forego all of the summoner class mechanics, although you'd be compensating with a limited number of feats.

"doesn't need to chase Cha" and "low CHA" are different things.
Basically, you get 16 CHA, enough to cast all of your spell levels, and then ignore it.
Not blowing Point-Buy to get an 18 or better, not dumping a bunch of your gold into a +CHA item. Just putting it at the "effective" minimum and calling it good.

[Vhaidara]

How would this work? I thought that the summoner would heavily rely on charisma. Low charisma means a lower level cap, and less access to party buffs.
I suppose you could have a melee or ranged weapon summoner, and just forego all of the summoner class mechanics, although you'd be compensating with a limited number of feats.

Melee gish summoner can actually be really effective. You and your eidolon grab teamwork feats, you personally have say a 14 Cha as base (grab a +2 item if the game goes long enough to need it). Half elf alternate racial nets you proficiency with the weapon of your choice, as well as access to the half elf summoner fcb, aka one of the better fcb in the game (+1/4 an evolution point)

For spell, stick with buffs. Doesn't matter if your saves are trash when nothing you do requires one..

I'm actually doing something very similar with a spiritualist in pathfinder society.y phantom and I both have the Dirty Fighting feat, so we flank and then start tossing out multiple combat maneuvers a turn (dirty trick blind, dirty trick entangle, trip, dirty trick sicken). Ive completely shut down CR 3 bosses with this, while being level 1. My spellcasting is entirely supplemental. Mostly cure light wounds to patch us up after the fight, or to sustain myself while the phantom tanks via etheric link.

[punchbeard]

Lots of neat suggestions here. After some consideration (and some discussion with the GM), I'm going with an alchemist/fighter. It's tankier than the magus (and the rest of the party) and is still quite versatile.

Link to the character sheet: here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=580742). I'm starting at level 7, but most of the progression is planned out anyway.

I like it. What do you think?

[TimeWizard]

If you aren't committed to Magus yet (although I had a lot of fun with that class), it wouldn't be hard to import the Crusader from the 3.5 Tome of Battle over to Pathfinder. It comes with self heals, tactical party buffs, and the best melee area control in the game. In the stance Thicket of Blades (AoO on all movement, even 5' steps and disengage actions) plus the feat Stand Still (AoO's stop the target from moving until their next turn) you can be a polearm wielding one-man Hold The Line.

On the other hand, I rolled a Magus for my first PF game and I ended up as the literal Deity of Cakes (and baking, and the Harvest).

[Kurald Galain]

Lots of neat suggestions here. After some consideration (and some discussion with the GM), I'm going with an alchemist/fighter. It's tankier than the magus (and the rest of the party) and is still quite versatile.

Link to the character sheet: here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=580742). I'm starting at level 7, but most of the progression is planned out anyway.

I like it. What do you think?

I'm unclear how you consider an artillery class (i.e. bomb-tossing alchemist) to be a tank. I'm also unclear what the fighter adds here that's worth losing three caster levels (and bomb levels) over.

[punchbeard]

I'm unclear how you consider an artillery class (i.e. bomb-tossing alchemist) to be a tank. I'm also unclear what the fighter adds here that's worth losing three caster levels (and bomb levels) over.

I decided to go more martial than magical. Think Witcher instead of Dovahkiin.
Feral mutagen with beastmorph is similar to the barbarian's beast totem line. Sort of. Fighter is for the extra feats, skills, and weapon/armor proficiencies. Bombs are just an extra, as I'd spend more turns tearing up enemies with full natural attacks, rather than rely on spells. So losing bomb damage and reducing extract limits isn't a huge deal.

No, it's not optimized at all, but I still think it looks fun. I'm particularly interested in preserve organs, since the reason I lost my poor sweet barbarian was because a near-dead enemy scored a crit with (almost) max damage. Never again. Also I can boost that miss chance or get my very own mini-me simulacrum.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If that is the case, have you seen the Mutation Warrior archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/mutation-warrior)? Granted it doesn't grant bombs or extracts, but it seems that you don't really care about those that much.

[Vhaidara]

Also, if you don't care about bombs, you can grab Vivisectionist. You swap bombs for Sneak Attack and some other nice little add ons.

[punchbeard]

Also, if you don't care about bombs, you can grab Vivisectionist. You swap bombs for Sneak Attack and some other nice little add ons.

Well, bombs can be handy sometimes. They offer a bit of crowd control and the damage gets through standard DR. Or maybe I simply can't reach any nearby enemies with melee. Plus, the damage scales. My earlier point was that the "feralchemist" isn't designed for ranged support, so having slightly fewer/weaker bombs than single-classing isn't terrible.

Also, extracts are good for buffs like shield AC or stoneskin DR. Beastmorph/mutagens give ability boosts, natural armor, and maybe some animal senses, but there's still a limit.

[Vhaidara]

Perhaps, but it is worth noting that natural attacks have some of the best synergy with Sneak Attack in the game. It's like TWF, except it only costs 1 feat (Multiattack) and your attack bonuses are all high.

[punchbeard]

I'm unclear how you consider an artillery class (i.e. bomb-tossing alchemist) to be a tank. I'm also unclear what the fighter adds here that's worth losing three caster levels (and bomb levels) over.

Edited: You're right. Dipping 3 doesn't help.

In fact, I might just step away from alchemist and back to magus, like before. There are probably going to be a lot of situations where we literally go dungeon diving - go into an underwater grotto, swim around for a few hours, fight stuff. This might be an issue for an alchemist, since mutagen's duration might not be long enough for the entire dungeon crawl (this includes time in between fights), and the alchemist might be screwed without ingredients and tools.

So... about that magus, right?

[punchbeard]

I don't know if anyone is still following this. Just as an update, our campaign has taken a surprising turn and we've changed a few party members, and possibly alignment. The GM is allowing lycanthrope templates as a level offset (party level is 7). So I'm doing that, and it's kind of goofy, but I still end up with a tough frontliner who can cast some spells - lycanthropic ranger, using the natural weapons style combat feats. I think it might work. No more worrying about feats to balance arcane/melee stuff, just a control melee bruiser, who gets nice ranger spells at late levels.

Class: Level 6 Freebooter Ranger
Race: Dwarf Wereshark

Notes:

Medium-sized wereshark, with claws... shark claws, I guess.
Saltbeard alternate racial trait is fantastic in a sea-based campaign.
Water as the favored terrain (if your GM says that water doesn't include boats, then take them separately).
In lycanthrope hybrid mode, the wereshark gets: +2 str, +2 con, 10 DR/silver, swim speed, blindsense (underwater), keen scent, natural armor, and a bite attack. It keeps martial weapons, worn equipment, and spellcasting ability.
Fun fact: Reach weapon + Bite attack + Combat reflexes = 10 ft radius threatened area.


As a side note, 5 of the 6 PCs are non-human. The 6th is a draconic half-orc, who is technically human.

[Aldrakan]

Wait why do you have claws (beyond the obvious logical issue)? Weresharks don't have a claw attack in their entry.

[punchbeard]

Wait why do you have claws (beyond the obvious logical issue)? Weresharks don't have a claw attack in their entry.

The feat Aspect of the Beast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/aspect-of-the-beast) can give primary natural attack claws to lycanthropes.

I also changed to werecrocodile instead of wereshark. Because of creature subtype rules, wereshark hybrids don't get water breathing. Werecrocodile hybrids can hold their breath longer underwater, and also get a nice bite primary natural attack. Additionally, since a crocodile's base strength (without size modifiers) is 17, the hybrid form gets 17+2 = 19 strength, completely independent of the normal form's strength!