Brokenness of 3.5 Epic Spellcasting

[redking]

I've looked into epic spellcasting in 3.5 and the common opinion seems to be that the whole system is irreparably broken. I may be missing something but from what I can see the only thing that is broken about epic spellcasting is the ritual mitigating circumstances component. Just dump that and you have a decent system for epic spells.

Am I right or am I right? Please critique.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's certainly the worst of them but ritualizing an epic spell isn't the only significant mitigation. Extra casting time can negate up to 220 points of the spellcraft DC for the desired effect. Xp cost can negate another 200. If you can't accomplish what you're trying to do with around 500 points worth of epic seeds then you should probably try something more subtle.

Adding the ritual mitigation does outright uncap the system and allows you to do pretty much anything at all if you're willing to cheese around getting the necessary participants which, at this level, isn't terribly difficult.

[Karnith]

You are correct that epic spell DC mitigation is too easily abusable, but the other problem with epic spells is that they are by and large terrible without mitigation abuse. The DCs pre-mitigation generally start out too high, particularly for spells you might want to use in-combat. If you have some time, try replicating some nonepic spells using the epic spell system. For example, making Fireball (albeit with a higher save DC) results in a Spellcraft DC of 45 (Energy seed base 19, +20 to reduce it to a standard action casting time, +6 to increase the range to 300% to almost match a CL 21 Fireball). The biggest consequence of the high Spellcraft DCs is that epic spells are very expensive to develop - the Fireball I just mentioned would cost 405,000 gold and 16,200 experience points to develop.

Additionally, epic spells don't scale - every time you might want to add additional damage, increase the range or area, increase the duration, and so on of an epic spell, you need to develop a new epic spell with the changed property, so you'll incur all of the development expenses again.

That said, without DC mitigation abuse, epic spells still have their uses. Increasing the casting time can let you make some very effective long-duration buffs, for example, and if you're trying to do something big (and/or permanent) you can use XP or take a year off from adventuring to do it.

[NeoPhoenix0]

To top off all the mitigation you are also basing this on a skill. Skills are easy to optimize and you can get a 100+ spellcraft check by level 10, i think i need to double check that, and now you are dealing with epic items to help even more. Basically, you get the ability to cast epic spells and your epic spellcasting has already reached limitless potential.

[redking]

It's certainly the worst of them but ritualizing an epic spell isn't the only significant mitigation. Extra casting time can negate up to 220 points of the spellcraft DC for the desired effect.

That's a good critique. Actually I have wondered how someone can do 100 days worth of casting. Surely there should be some rules on disruption, or someone messing up the spell/ritual or whatever.

Given that spells have a base casting time of 1 minute, it doesn't seem right that someone could draw that out to 100 days. Would a 10 day maximum make it work?



Xp cost can negate another 200. If you can't accomplish what you're trying to do with around 500 points worth of epic seeds then you should probably try something more subtle.

Assuming that the character is willing to blow 20K XP on an epic spell, that seems like a decent trade off.

[Necroticplague]

Because instantaneous buffs are possible. Even if you don't mitigate the cost to zero, the costs are minor and the DC is easy. And Instantaneous buffs basically translate to "permanent, but can't be dispelled". So just pop a Heal seed onto some buffs, and you can keep it forever. Even ignoring infinite loops, there's nothing in the Epic rules to stop you from just slapping on ridiculous amount of broken monster abilities onto yourself permanently. For example, here's an example of a spell That's entirely legal by the rules:




Spellcraft DC: 0
Components:V, S, DF
Casting Time:10 minute
Range:Personal
Target:Self
Duration:Instantaneous
Saving Throw:Fortitude negates (see text)
Spell Resistance:Yes

This spell reduces the caster briefly into a primordial soup before re-sculpting them into a form mocking their original one, now appearing like a black hole shaped like their previous form with constant ripples moving under the surface. This restorative change neutralizes poisons in the subject’s system so that no additional damage or effects are suffered, offsets feeblemindedness, cures mental disorders caused by spells or injury to the brain, dispels all magical effects penalizing the character’s abilities, including effects caused by spells, even epic spells developed with the afflict seed, and completely cures all diseases, blindness, deafness, hit point damage, and temporary ability damage. (Note, the following are all Extraordinary abilities). The caster gains regeneration 50, is unaffected by nonlethal damage, stunning and death by massive damage, takes a a -8 penalty on any skill check that involves fine motor control or a sense of touch, such as Open Lock or Sleight of Hand checks,gains a +4 bonus on Concentration checks provoked by damage.They can now fold space around themselves (simulating the spells ethereal jaunt, dimension door, greater teleport, or plane shift) at will as a standard action. Any creature or object that comes into contact with the caster is immediately disintegrated unless it succeeds at a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 HD). A character or object that has been disintegrated by the caster disappears completely, leaving behind not even dust to mark its passing. Those who make a successful saving throw still take 5d6 points of damage from the disintegrating touch. Likewise, weapons or objects that save take a like amount of damage. The caster gain a flight speed of 90 (perfect). The caster may also assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action.Whatever its present form, the caster retains all its own special qualities. Plus, it gains the advantage of up to four extraordinary abilities from the forms it mimics (but not spell-like or supernatural powers). The assumed form can be no smaller than a flea and no larger than 200 feet in its largest dimension . Incorporeal traits can also be assumed, which counts as a single extraordinary ability. If a caster assumes a partial form that confers an extraordinary ability already possessed by the creature, only the better of the two abilities is retained. No matter its form, the caster can never make more than five attacks using a full-round action.

This spell is a ritual that requires 5 casters to use up a 3rd level spell slot, while a 6th one uses up a 4th level slot, in addition to the epic spell slot the caster uses to cast this spell.

[noob]

"Even ignoring infinite loops, there's nothing in the Epic rules to stop you from just slapping on ridiculous amount of broken monster abilities onto yourself permanently. For example, here's an example of a spell That's entirely legal by the rules: "
Nope that is false they say something like three times that each spell must be approved 21542346468R6798362375798643 thousand times by the gm before the character is able to find it.
They then insist on the fact that creating an epic spell is an artistic process and that also GMs should lead players in artistic thinking rather in creations of efficient spells.
so it means that you can create this spell only if the GM wants and anyway you can already create it as a level 0 spell if the GM allows you to.
The epic spell creation rules are only guidelines for researching spells and they say that it is the GM who choose what spell you can research
Then I insist that It is GM dependent.
so according to those rules it is true that you can create your mentioned spell but only if the gm really wants you to create it and anyway you could create it anyway since the GM wanted.
So the conclusion is that epic spell rules are not broken they are simply useless since it only says : "You can do whatever the GM wants you do do with some added limits as guidelines"

[AvatarVecna]

The problem there is that there's existing guidelines for general use that are also DM-dependent. All rules are DM dependent as it is, and without having an actual DM to consult when theory-crafting, we can only go with the rules present in the book. If Epic Spellcasting said "epic spells can do effectively anything, but must be researched; researching epic spells costs an appropriate amount of time, gp, and XP, as determined by the DM", and didn't say anything else, then yes, we'd be completely dependent on a DM's whims. But because RAW has guidelines, we can assume those guidelines are in place unless a DM rules otherwise.

The fact that a DM can Rule 0 Epic Spellcasting into being balanced doesn't mean Epic Spellcasting is balanced; if anything, the fact that Epic Spellcasting is only balanced once the DM gets involved is proof that it's imbalanced as-is.

[noob]

It is not rule 0 it is clearly written in the epic spell creation rules that each epic spell must be allowed by the GM themselves so the GM participation is a part of epic research since it is written explicitly in it.
It is clearly rules not for making mechanically efficient spells(since it is written the creation of epic spells is an artistic process and that all example epic spells are flashy and dramatic and classy) but for making spectacular spells the GM wants to see in its campaign it is a little like the crusade spells priests got in the old time when the gods wanted them to have them.
They are not to be used as a mechanic for munckining they are made so that players ask "can I create a spell creating gigantic swarms overrunning a continent and making people depressed and destroying food" and that the GM might say "No I do not want that" or "yes it would be an awesome plot to then see heroes rising to fight you and creating misery in such an epic way ought to improve my campaign"
All what happens is that here there is a +50 saw of dismemberment and disintegration and there is a children wanting to use it: it will works wrongly no child should access so much dangerous tools without an adult and it is written on the toolbox that it must not be held by an unguarded children but it is not broken it is simply a tool to use under watch because it is explicitly said on it to be this way and because it is the case.

[Necroticplague]

If the only thing that stops it from being broken is the DM saying "Hell no.", that's a pretty good indicator it's broken. To use your own chainsaw analogy, saying that Epic Magic isn't broken because it requires GM permission is like saying a +50 chainsaw of dismemberment and disintegration isn't dangerous because anyone with a brain wouldn't go anywhere near it. They don't go near it BECAUSE it's dangerous, and GM permission is required BECAUSE its broken.

The existence of anything in a campaign is subject to GM approval, so saying that Epic spells are also subject to such is redundant and useless.