3.5 warblade/wujen/jpm

[brys]

I have been trawling forums on this topic for ages and it is making my brain bleed. Many that I have seen dance around my idea but don't hit it directly. I like the synergy between wujen and jpm and I went warblade because I wanted to try out storm guard warrior. The basic idea was wujen 5/warblade 1/abj.cha.4/jpm 10 combined with aura of chaos stance at jpm5. I can't get it to fit. If i change any levels i either miss out on 9th level spells or can't finish jpm to level 10. Can anyone either tell me what I am missing to make this work or help me decide which component is least useful to the others. I was looking to abjurant champion4 to fill out the character it seemed to fit Ok but is the part I am least bothered to lose unless I missed a trick.

[ekarney]

I believe you can qualify for the martial side of JPM with feats, which is a total of 3 feats, take 2 flaws and play human and you're set.

That being said, most gish builds mean losing out on a few caster levels.

The Wu Jen itself is pretty gishy already, and Abjurant Champion won't really help that much.
Swap it out for like Mage of the Arcane order for bonus spells, or Incantatrix/Archmage.

I'd probably do something along the lines of Wu Jen 6/Incantatrix 3/JPM 10/Archmage 1 with either Spell Power or SLA. Just metamagic and defensive buff yourself before battle, smash on Giant Size, animate some Terra Cotta warriors for support and you're ready to go.
Alternatively, Wu Jen 5/Incantatrix 3/JPM 10/Archmage 2 (SLA x2)

Just don't be too abusive with the Wu Jen, because despite being less broken than the wizard, it's broken much more easily, and it's not too hard to get crazy high Spellcraft bonuses.

Using feats and dumping Abjurant Champion frees up 5 levels for you.

And remember, Wu Jen only needs 17 full casting levels in order to get 9th level spells, meaning you can waste 3 levels on non casting classes.

Edit: I can't help you with gaining martial moves, since I've never read through ToB too much. Anything Wu-Jen related however...

Other than that the only other advice I can give you is look through the early entry handbook.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The only way i can see it working is if you're allowed to use a bloodline level. The math just doesn't work otherwise.
You have 5 IL (Warblade 1 & JPM 4). You need to gain 5 IL in 9 levels (or less) to get Aura of Chaos at JPM 5 and still have room to finish JPM, and the only way to do that is to take a martial adept class. But the only one of those that advances arcane casting is JPM.

That means you either need to give up on 9th level spells or you need to suck it up and spend a feat on martial stance to get Aura of Chaos.
Both just aren't happening unless you can magically pull another initiator level out of your hat.

[brys]

I did ask about flaws, and got the 'maybe next time' line. I did think about the different priorities, and finally decided that full caster had to come first, so with JPM 10 dropping 2CL and Warblade 1 dropping the other 1CL I am at my limit for 9th level spells. I think I looked at all the full casting PrC's and the only one that really fit was Abj.Cha. in part due to the nearly full BAB that I end up with, I don't really need the last level. I also considered going the feat route for JPM, but then I would have no combat recovery method.

FYI to qualify to become a Jade Phoenix Mage, a character must have:

Alignment: Any nonevil - no problem.

Skills: Concentration 9 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 2 ranks, Knowledge (history) 2 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks, - so minimum ECL 6 before qualifying.

Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells, - minimum CL3, but the only level other than Wu-Jen that I can take is Warblade and if I take that before IL3 it limits my starting maneuvers to 1st level. I could maybe qualify for 'another' full caster Prc for 2 levels but I don't really think that would help.

Martial Maneuvers: Must know at least two martial maneuvers, including one strike - 2 feats.

Martial Stances: Must know at least one martial stance - 1 feat, needs to be an Iron Heart stance>Iron Heart Aura>Stormguard Warrior.

I don't remember how bloodlines work, vaguely remember something about cheating IL, so that might work if they are an official source. If not then yes, Martial Stance feat is the best fall back, in which case what shold I take at JPM 5?

Feats:

1 Knowledge Devotion (human), Combat Casting (req. for Abj.Cha.)
3
6 Ironheart Aura (req. for SGW)
9 Stormguard Warrior
12
15
18

I have 4 open feat slots, but I prefer tactical combat, if I can't buff beforehand and have no useful spells, then I have a lot of options for turning spells into combat effects.

I will cast the 4 'heart' spells every morning ( immunity to criticals and various secondary triggered effects), and wear the Fleer Warriors Array ( various movement effects ) and Twighlight Serpent Armour ( Combat Reflexes + 0% ASF ). Also thinking of creating an Abjuration version of mage armour, for synergy with Abj. Cha. abilities, and probably have shield prepared too.

I will be able to cast Permanency and have all those compatible spells too, as magic fang is an option I might even take Imp. Unarmed Strike.

My preference on spells is versatility, so EXT. Alter Self, and then other polymorph effects as I gain those CL's. Spirit Binding, in it's various forms seems like the way to go too. What other strategies should a Wu-Jen use?

Weapons, I was thinking Spiked Chain for reach and flavour, but not married to it. I can change any specific weapon feats with Warblade ability if something else comes along. If I am using Aura of Chaos stance, more dice = more chance to roll max.

Maneuvers, any that give lots of dice work well with AoC stance, but I will take good utility effects over damage, also I will aim to get as many maneuver granting items as i can get my hands on, for a good range of extra effects, i could even use them to 'step' to higher level maneuvers that require 1 'known' maneuver, use a martial study feat, and then change it again.

[Taveena]

Wu Jen gets 9ths with an effective level of 17, so the two lost levels from JPM and one lost level from Warblade still results in 9ths. Abjurant Champion isn't BAD, but it's hard to fit into a build like this, and ultimately trying tends to hurt more than it helps. Wu Jen 9/Warblade 1/JPM 10 is simple and effective with an eventual IL of 15, getting you 8ths. If you wanna go higher than that, you're gonna lose 9th level spells.

EDIT: Okay, technically that's not true, fast progression casting PrCs can pull it off, but Ur-Priest and RKV are fluff-incompatible. Still, Crusader 8/Divine Crusader 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 manages an IL of 19, provided you can cheese Turn from somewhere.

[Solaris]

On the down side, you can't take Knowledge Devotion at 1st level - it has a prerequisite of 5 ranks in a Knowledge skill.
On the plus side, I think I figured out what your 3rd-level feat's going to be.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There is already an abjuration version of Mage Armor - Luminous Armor and its greater version. It can be cast by any prepared caster. You have to be good though.

You should also get Power Attack. You can boost your hit with Arcane Wrath and Knowledge Devotion, and while Wraithstrike isn't on your list Lightning Blade does effectively the same thing.

[brys]

Ok. I suppose the only down side to the much simpler build WJ9/WB1/JPM10, is the lower BAB, one less hit on a full attack and lower HP, and in return I get an elemental mastery and another spell secret. I have no idea what would be best though.

Yup, forgot about the K.ranks, but as you say not a huge problem.

Power Attack is a good call too. Although when I went looking for Luminous Armour, I got side tracked by Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Dunno why I didn't look at it before, and I probably won't do it, this time, but if I burnt my first 3 feats to qualify for JPM, whilst taking WJ3, I could then qualify for IotSV, whilst levelling JPM and round out the character with that!

WJ3/JPM10/IotSV7!!! Kaleidoscopic Doom and Emerald Immolation FTW!

EDIT: I would need martial weapon proficiency too, I couldn't do it without flaws.

[Ruethgar]

As to bloodlines, they are an official source, they give you class levels that don't alter your ECL/HD/Skills but do advance class level dependent effects such as IL and CL. IL is particularly potent by RAW since bloodlines aren't an initiator class they grant the 0.5/lvl IL in addition to their class feature of 1/lvl. If you don't take them as your first level classes, they cost 1k XP each at minimum.
A Major Bloodline 3/Wu Jen 3/Warblade 1 is an ECL 4 character with a caster level of 6 and an initiator level of 7. You can also take multiple bloodlines by RAW, but one is typically more than enough. If you want to combine the flavor, I suggest Welknair's mudblood bloodline, despite bein homebrew it is far more balanced than taking 2-4 bloodlines.
Example: I wanted a playable Hellfire Wyrm so I took Mudblood: Intermediate Devil/Intermediate Fire Elemental on a Red Dragon Hatchling getting(the admittedly horrible) Dragonscale Husk ACF picking Hellfire Wyrm as the dragons scales to emulate. Fluffy fiery goodness!

[brys]

I think we are starting at level 12, but no home brew allowed so one of the metallic dragon bloodlines? Can I take all 3 levels at the beginning, or should I take at least one level Wujen to get the x4 skills. Also if the group is all ecl12, do I start at 12 including 3 bloodline levels or in addition to them?

[Ruethgar]

You can technically take all three at the beginning for 0xp, but I would suggest taking a level of Wu Jen first because at least then you pay 3000xp for the bloodlines instead of them being free. You would, in the suggested case, start at ECL 11 with 63000xp and 3 bloodline levels. For the most part, none of the bloodlines differ enough for you to pick one over another, so just go with a major one you like the flavor of. Silver and Gold dragons are the only major metallic, Red the only chromatic. Also note that with a lower ECL you get more XP/encounter.

[brys]

Ok. So I have approval for my character so far, and spells are not really an issue as I can change/learn new ones and research to fill any gaps. That said if there is a good spell/maneuver combo that I might have missed, please feel free to mention it.
What I really need some help with now, is combat routines, which maneuvers and stances to go for, and I also plan to buy, borrow or build most if not all of the maneuver granting items as I level.

Originally I was trying to figure a way to engineer a 5th level stance as my pick at JPM 5, now that I have done that, using bloodlines to up my IL without increasing my ECL, I wonder if I didn't have the wrong goal in mind.

Major Bloodline 3/ Wu-Jen 5/ Warblade 1/ Jade Pheonix Mage 10/ Abjurant Champion 4.

We are planning to take this group into Epic levels, and the other members made a good case for starting at ECL 15, I kept quiet and went along. This means, if I have understood all your advice so far, that I will have already paid off the XP cost for the bloodline, ( I thought silver dragon fit best, as there were no oriental dragons without using homebrew, a big no-no with this group, but may there is a better case for Storm Giant or Titan)?

I figure the party will not notice my extra abilities unless I start throwing off 'cone of cold' every other round, (I will actually try not to use the obvious effects, like breath weapon unless I have to, concealing my heritage as long as possible). I did look at Gold Dragon, Djinni, Fey, Storm Giant, and Titan, still not sure I have the right one. Getting Immunity/ (element), seems a better choice than DR, and I was trying to avoid any that give resistance to fire damage as this elemental type is the easiest to deal with in other ways, especially spell effects, but the other benefits might out weigh that choice.

My Warblade maneuvers need to include Punishing Stance, to qualify for Iron Heart Aura and then Stormguard Warrior, the others would be 3rd level, at IL 6, (BL 2/WJ 5/ WB1), or 4th level, at IL 8, (BL 3/WJ 5/ WB 1)?
I like Iron Heart Surge for its utility, and later Rallying Strike, Castigating Strike and Salamander Charge, (how does the wall form if I cast Giant Growth first)?

Skills I am thinking Max Balance, Concentration, Jump, Tumble, a few ranks in each of the knowledge skills to make Knowledge Devotion worthwhile, after that not sure.

Spells maybe:

0: prestidigitation, ghost sound, mage hand, meassage.
1: magic weapon, protection from evil, silent image, ghost sound, abjurant mage armour.
2: heart of air, alterself (WJ extended), lightning blade.
3: heart of water, firewings, dispel magic, magnetism.
4: heart of earth, poison needles, greater invisibility, polymorph, lesser spirit binding.
5: heart of fire, vitriolic sphere, arc of lightning, stoneshape.
6: spirit binding?
7: body outside body, or giant size, (depending on expected surroundings).

NB: still a little unsure around what to call with spirit binding, but I have been reading various posts about it, any good links?

Hell of a lot to think about, sometimes I wish I could stand to play a simple character......but I can't!!

[Kelb_Panthera]

I do believe lung dragons have the spirit subtype. If the DM goes with their default fluff, they're also members of the celestial bureaucracy so, beyond their creature abilities, they might be able to pull some strings for you if you offer a sweet deal. At the same time, they're powerful far beyond their CR for the same reason. Tread carefully in binding them.