[Challenge] Sneaky Rager!

[TopCheese]

I'm away from book but I thought up a silly build that I would love to see created.

Using at most 10 levels I would like to see a build that optimizes Rage + Halfling Racial Hiding Trait. As long as you mix in these two features anything else goes.

Say Hello To My Little Friend
Tactic: Hide in the wizard's robe with racial trait, rage, assasinate.

Build: Barbarian 4/ Rogue 6

Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 9
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

Stealth: +11
Initiative: +3

Idea: I'm hidden by my ally almost all the time, the Wizard has presdigitation "old spice" so I don't choke to death. The wizard has small holes in their robes so I can see out of it. I should be able to surprise most people with this, who the he'll expects a raging Halfling to be summoned by the wizard's crotch/robes?*

I would love to see what others come up with :)

Also, assume your own rules on stealth and don't worry about what other people think stealth does. This isn't about arguing stealth.

Edited for clarity

[Malifice]

How do you intend to get surprise on the first round of the encounter.

The Wizard will give the game away right?

Youll start hidden for sure though.

[TopCheese]

How do you intend to get surprise on the first round of the encounter.

The Wizard will give the game away right?

Youll start hidden for sure though.

The wizard may not be surprising but the Hidden Raging Halfling can be.

Like being in battle and a new enemy shows up and surprised you from your flank.

Also, this isn't the place to argue stealth/hidden/whatever rules so please don't

[Malifice]

The wizard may not be surprising but the Hidden Raging Halfling can be.

Like being in battle and a new enemy shows up and surprised you from your flank.

Also, this isn't the place to argue stealth/hidden/whatever rules so please don't

I'm not talking about stealth bro. Im talking about the rules for surprise. From my reading once the monster sees the wizard, then neither side is surprised (although the Halfling could sure be hidden).

[TopCheese]

I'm not talking about stealth bro. Im talking about the rules for surprise. From my reading once the monster sees the wizard, then neither side is surprised (although the Halfling could sure be hidden).

Surprise is part of stealth, could you please just stop with your...

You know Whatcom just going to block you. I don't need to be dragged into this crap.

[Malifice]

Surprise is part of stealth, could you please just stop with your...

What? No it's not. This has nothing to do with interpretation of the stealth rules. I havent talked about the stealth rules, hide checks, halflings, or hiding.

Im just curious as to how you are going to get surprise when the Wizard isnt hiding so to trigger your assasinate ability?

The PHB seems to say that once the monster sees the wizard, initative is rolled and there is no surprise. Have a read.

[NewbieDMaster]

The PHB seems to say that once the monster sees the wizard, initative is rolled and there is no surprise. Have a read.

I got a different interpretation from the PHB...

...the DM compares the Dexterity(Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom(Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

So when the enemy decides that it is going to attack the Wizard, surprise is determined before initiative is rolled. The enemy is surprised by the Halfling. Then initiative is rolled, and the Halfling acts in the surprise round.

That is my interpretation...

[manny2510]

I think this would be better with a bag of holding, because the wizard would suck at hiding a halfling, and might get stuck in melee. Two weapons would be ideal to make sure at least one attack gets sneak attack.

[Malifice]

I got a different interpretation from the PHB...


So when the enemy decides that it is going to attack the Wizard, surprise is determined before initiative is rolled. The enemy is surprised by the Halfling. Then initiative is rolled, and the Halfling acts in the surprise round.

That is my interpretation...

There isnt a 'surprise round' anymore.

If you're surprised, you cant act in the first turn. You just stand there drooling.

If the monsters see the Wizard, then they are not surprised, and can act normally in the 1st round of the combat.

[TopCheese]

I think this would be better with a bag of holding, because the wizard would suck at hiding a halfling, and might get stuck in melee. Two weapons would be ideal to make sure at least one attack gets sneak attack.

Halflings can hide behind allies, well the cha one can at least. The wizard's ability to hide the Halfling doesn't matter, just the halfling's hiding ability :).

With advantage on attack with rapier the chances of hitting is pretty good, also rolling a 1 isn't that big of a deal.

Bag of holding would probably kill the Halfling or the Halfling could poke a hole it in.

Edit: plus with reckless attack I don't need to gain advantage through surprise, I just have to act before they do to get the crit.

[Malifice]

Halflings can hide behind allies, well the cha one can at least. The wizard's ability to hide the Halfling doesn't matter, just the halfling's hiding ability :).

With advantage on attack with rapier the chances of hitting is pretty good, also rolling a 1 isn't that big of a deal.

Bag of holding would probably kill the Halfling or the Halfling could poke a hole it in.

Edit: plus with reckless attack I don't need to gain advantage through surprise, I just have to act before they do to get the crit.

You still need to surprise them though. If they see the wizard, they wont be surprised on round 1, even if they dont see you.

[JoeJ]

Is that a halfling under your robe, or are you just happy to see me?

Even under the wizard's robe, I'd imagine it would be a lot easier to remain concealed behind the wizard than in front, although that might present visibility problems.

Also, how would you deal with the problem of two characters walking that closely without getting tangled up in each other, especially if one of them has limited vision?

[TopCheese]

Is that a halfling under your robe, or are you just happy to see me?

Even under the wizard's robe, I'd imagine it would be a lot easier to remain concealed behind the wizard than in front, although that might present visibility problems.

Also, how would you deal with the problem of two characters walking that closely without getting tangled up in each other, especially if one of them has limited vision?

Fantasy game, the Halfling is just that damn good.

Practice makes perfect. By second level this would have been figured out ages ago.

The mage friend would ideally be a diviner but not really needed. Also any mage friend could work, actually, a cleric with heavy armor and a large robe would work best.

I just find the idea of a wizard shooting raging halflings out of her or his crotch to be immensely funny.

[Malifice]

Is that a halfling under your robe, or are you just happy to see me?

Even under the wizard's robe, I'd imagine it would be a lot easier to remain concealed behind the wizard than in front, although that might present visibility problems.

Also, how would you deal with the problem of two characters walking that closely without getting tangled up in each other, especially if one of them has limited vision?

There is no argument that a Halfling can hide behind a medium creature. They can.

The issue is that the Wizard gets spotted, ruining the surprise. There arent 'surprise rounds' anymore. If the monster spot even the one PC, then they arent surprised on round 1.

This foils assasinate.

[NewbieDMaster]

There isnt a 'surprise round' anymore.

If you're surprised, you cant act in the first turn. You just stand there drooling.

If the monsters see the Wizard, then they are not surprised, and can act normally in the 1st round of the combat.

I am aware that there isn't a 'surprise round' technically, but in essence there is, as there is a round of combat where only non surprised characters can act.
I don't know if it fits the RAW perfectly, as the RAW is very vague on surprise rounds, but it seems to fit that any character that is hiding when combat starts, gets a chance to surprise the enemy. Meaning that the enemy would be surprised when combat started.

Sorry OP for off topic... Regarding the Sneaky Rager build. I would go this route, assuming UA is allowed...
Rogue 3 (Assassin)

Expertise (Stealth)
Sneak Attack 2d6
Assassinate


Barbarian 5 (Berserker)

Rage
Reckless Attack
Extra Attack
Fast Movement (To help close the distance)


UA Ranger Variant 2

Ambuscade (An extra round of attacks before combat starts)
Fighting Style (Dualist)
Skirmisher's Stealth (Return to the Wizard's robes before the enemy ever sees you)


Feat

Polearm master (keep a quarterstaff held in your off-hand to sneak attack with your main hand when someone approaches)


This guy can jump out of the Wizard's robes to surprise the enemy. Gets an extra round of attacks thanks to ambuscade and all of the attacks are critical. Then he ends up back in the Wizard's robes when he is done, and the enemy never saw him. When the enemy approaches the wizard, he gets another sneak attack thanks to Polearm Master!

[CNagy]

I am aware that there isn't a 'surprise round' technically, but in essence there is, as there is a round of combat where only non surprised characters can act.

And the precondition for being one of those non-surprised characters is to notice "a threat." If they explicitly required you to notice all threats, then having hidden characters among allies who are out in the open would work but, as written, because the creature notices a threat (the wizard), it is sufficiently alerted to impending combat and is not surprised on the first round.

[JoeJ]

Fantasy game, the Halfling is just that damn good.

Being that damn good doesn't make him that damn small. To hide he has to be obscured by a creature. Behind the wizard that's clearly the case. In front of and just under a robe? I'm not so sure.


Practice makes perfect. By second level this would have been figured out ages ago.

The mage friend would ideally be a diviner but not really needed. Also any mage friend could work, actually, a cleric with heavy armor and a large robe would work best.

I just find the idea of a wizard shooting raging halflings out of her or his crotch to be immensely funny.

Rule of funny I'll give you. But it could also be very funny if the two kept tripping over each other, or if the halfling was completely obvious except to very stupid creatures and the wizard kept having to come up with lies to explain his apparent deformity.

[Malifice]

I am aware that there isn't a 'surprise round' technically, but in essence there is, as there is a round of combat where only non surprised characters can act.
I don't know if it fits the RAW perfectly, as the RAW is very vague on surprise rounds, but it seems to fit that any character that is hiding when combat starts, gets a chance to surprise the enemy. Meaning that the enemy would be surprised when combat started.

Sorry OP for off topic... Regarding the Sneaky Rager build. I would go this route, assuming UA is allowed...
Rogue 3 (Assassin)

Expertise (Stealth)
Sneak Attack 2d6
Assassinate


Barbarian 5 (Berserker)

Rage
Reckless Attack
Extra Attack
Fast Movement (To help close the distance)


UA Ranger Variant 2

Ambuscade (An extra round of attacks before combat starts)
Fighting Style (Dualist)
Skirmisher's Stealth (Return to the Wizard's robes before the enemy ever sees you)


Feat

Polearm master (keep a quarterstaff held in your off-hand to sneak attack with your main hand when someone approaches)


This guy can jump out of the Wizard's robes to surprise the enemy. Gets an extra round of attacks thanks to ambuscade and all of the attacks are critical. Then he ends up back in the Wizard's robes when he is done, and the enemy never saw him. When the enemy approaches the wizard, he gets another sneak attack thanks to Polearm Master!

It doesnt work that way mate. Have a close read of the PHB page 189. Either the whole party is surprised, or none of them are.

Assume the party approach 5 Orcs (one hidden and four in the open). They fail to notice the hidden Orc, but can clearly spot the four Orcs in the open.

Are you saying the failure to spot one Orc, renders the party surprised (and unable to take actions during thier turn 1) against all the orcs?

They changed how surprise works in 5E. Seriously; read the section. You have to be unaware of the entire other side to be surprised (and miss your first turn).

I tried to explain this to the OP but he somehow thought I was talking about the Hiding rules, ragequit and blocked me. Now he's going to cheerfully discuss a character build using rules that dont work the way he thinks they do.

[TopCheese]

I am aware that there isn't a 'surprise round' technically, but in essence there is, as there is a round of combat where only non surprised characters can act.
I don't know if it fits the RAW perfectly, as the RAW is very vague on surprise rounds, but it seems to fit that any character that is hiding when combat starts, gets a chance to surprise the enemy. Meaning that the enemy would be surprised when combat started.

Sorry OP for off topic... Regarding the Sneaky Rager build. I would go this route, assuming UA is allowed...
Rogue 3 (Assassin)

Expertise (Stealth)
Sneak Attack 2d6
Assassinate


Barbarian 5 (Berserker)

Rage
Reckless Attack
Extra Attack
Fast Movement (To help close the distance)


UA Ranger Variant 2

Ambuscade (An extra round of attacks before combat starts)
Fighting Style (Dualist)
Skirmisher's Stealth (Return to the Wizard's robes before the enemy ever sees you)


Feat

Polearm master (keep a quarterstaff held in your off-hand to sneak attack with your main hand when someone approaches)


This guy can jump out of the Wizard's robes to surprise the enemy. Gets an extra round of attacks thanks to ambuscade and all of the attacks are critical. Then he ends up back in the Wizard's robes when he is done, and the enemy never saw him. When the enemy approaches the wizard, he gets another sneak attack thanks to Polearm Master!
Nice, I forgot about UA actually haha. But yeah that works insanely well.

Oh and I didn't mean to make the Wizard robes thing a requirement of the build, I just thought it was cool/funny enough.

Sadly though polearm master only works with the polearm and not with other weapons (by dev tweet).

But holy crao, using UA is a great idea.


Being that damn good doesn't make him that damn small. To hide he has to be obscured by a creature. Behind the wizard that's clearly the case. In front of and just under a robe? I'm not so sure.



Rule of funny I'll give you. But it could also be very funny if the two kept tripping over each other, or if the halfling was completely obvious except to very stupid creatures and the wizard kept having to come up with lies to explain his apparent deformity.

So a Halfling can't use their racial feature because they are halfling's?

Sorry but halfling's can use their racial feature to hide, I'm not sure how you can get anything else out of their feature other than "can hide behind larger creatures".

Stop trying to make the Halfling into something it isn't. This isn't LotR or 1978. Read the Halfling ability and then tell me why they can't use it.

Edit:

You know what. No, sorry that is getting off topic. I don't want to hear about it.

[Malifice]

Nice, I forgot about UA actually haha. But yeah that works insanely well.

Oh and I didn't mean to make the Wizard robes thing a requirement of the build, I just thought it was cool/funny enough.

Sadly though polearm master only works with the polearm and not with other weapons (by dev tweet).

But holy crao, using UA is a great idea.



So a Halfling can't use their racial feature because they are halfling's?

Sorry but halfling's can use their racial feature to hide, I'm not sure how you can get anything else out of their feature other than "can hide behind larger creatures".

Stop trying to make the Halfling into something it isn't. This isn't LotR or 1978. Read the Halfling ability and then tell me why they can't use it.

Edit:

You know what. No, sorry that is getting off topic. I don't want to hear about it.

Its not that the Halfling cant hide - its that as soon as the enemy see the Wizard (who isnt hiding), they are not surprised on round 1 of the combat.

The halfling doesnt get a special round all to himself. He cant assasinate anyone.

[JoeJ]

So a Halfling can't use their racial feature because they are halfling's?

Sorry but halfling's can use their racial feature to hide, I'm not sure how you can get anything else out of their feature other than "can hide behind larger creatures".

Stop trying to make the Halfling into something it isn't. This isn't LotR or 1978. Read the Halfling ability and then tell me why they can't use it.

What are you talking about? I explicitly said the halfling can hide behind the wizard.


You know what. No, sorry that is getting off topic. I don't want to hear about it.

If you don't want people to comment, why are you posting about it?

[Malifice]

What are you talking about? I explicitly said the halfling can hide behind the wizard.



If you don't want people to comment, why are you posting about it?

Do you want to explain to him about the surprise problem?

He blocked me in an earlier ragequit.

[coredump]

So here is the problem. The target is either surprised, or he isn't. The rules do not allow for the target to be surprised by the halfling and not surprised by the Wizard. If you are aware of *any* threat, you are not surprised.

Now, its possible, I suppose, for the target to not realize the wizard is a threat.... and could then be surprised by the halfling.... but that seems a bit contrived and kind of unlikely.

Surprise basically means that you have no idea that you are even going to be involved in *any* combat at all. If you are aware of even one of the attackers....then you are not surprised, and no attacking Assassins will get auto-crits.

[JoeJ]

So here is the problem. The target is either surprised, or he isn't. The rules do not allow for the target to be surprised by the halfling and not surprised by the Wizard. If you are aware of *any* threat, you are not surprised.

Now, its possible, I suppose, for the target to not realize the wizard is a threat.... and could then be surprised by the halfling.... but that seems a bit contrived and kind of unlikely.

Surprise basically means that you have no idea that you are even going to be involved in *any* combat at all. If you are aware of even one of the attackers....then you are not surprised, and no attacking Assassins will get auto-crits.

Because of this, if you allow surprise after combat has started you're giving every character on the surprising side an extra round of actions. What if half the monsters start out invisible and hidden? One of them becomes visible every round, gains surprise, and the PCs lose all their actions for that round. Keep that up and there's a good chance of a TPK before any PC gets to even act at all.

[NewbieDMaster]

It doesnt work that way mate. Have a close read of the PHB page 189. Either the whole party is surprised, or none of them are.

Re-reading the rules, it seems you are correct Malifice. I occasionally have trouble with the 5e rules, as I am coming from 3.x and naturally try to use the old rules as a chassis for the new 5e rules.
Anyways, while I agree that RAW says this doesn't work, my group is currently using a surprise system that is very similar to 3.x, and with our houserule, this hiding rager sounds quite fun, if not completely ridiculous.


Nice, I forgot about UA actually haha. But yeah that works insanely well.

Oh and I didn't mean to make the Wizard robes thing a requirement of the build, I just thought it was cool/funny enough.

Sadly though polearm master only works with the polearm and not with other weapons (by dev tweet).
Thinking about it further, the Barbarian levels really aren't doing anything for this build. You would get a lot more benefit by replacing them with fighter levels.
Pickup Fighting Style (Protection) to help defend the Wizard when the enemy approaches (assuming you can't use Polearm Master to attack with your reaction), and use action surge to get yet another round of attacks in the surprise round for critical damage!
Throw in Battle Master for another 4d8 (which becomes 8d8 with auto-crits) and some fun rider effects, and not many people are gonna survive a round with this "little friend".

As for Polearm Master not working, while I agree that it is definitely not RAI, it definitely works in RAW, and I take dev tweets with a grain of salt, as they frequently contradict themselves... While I would never allow Polearm Master to work this way in my games, in a RAW discussion, it is fair game IMO until a fix is put into official errata.

So, assuming enemy AC=17 (Average for CR 10 monster according to DMG pg. 274) and Dex mod of 3 (best Halfling can get without using ASI on it), the Halfling would do an average of 127.68 damage before the enemy got the chance to attack! This is a ton... but unfortunately not enough to drop a CR 10 monster in 1 shot (HP 206-220).

Ambuscade round

1st attack (1d8[Rapier]+2d6[Sneak Attack]+1d8[Superiority Die]+5[+3Dex+2Dualist]) with auto critical and advantage. {29.5075 average}
2nd attack (1d8[Rapier]+1d8[Superiority Die]+5[+3Dex+2Dualist]) with auto critical and advantage. {18.3425 average}


Surprise Round

1st attack - (1d8[Rapier]+2d6[Sneak Attack]+1d8[Superiority Die]+5[+3Dex+2Dualist]) with auto critical and advantage. {29.5075 average}
2nd attack (1d8[Rapier]+1d8[Superiority Die]+5[+3Dex+2Dualist]) with auto critical and advantage. {18.3425 average}
1st Action Surge attack (1d8[Rapier]+5[+3Dex+2Dualist]) with auto critical and advantage. {11.165 average}
2nd Action Surge attack (1d8[Rapier]+5[+3Dex+2Dualist]) with auto critical and advantage. {11.165 average}


Reaction on Approach

Reaction attack (1d8[Rapier]+2d6[Sneak Attack]+5[+3Dex+2Dualist]) no advantage, only crit on Natural 20. {9.65 average}


29.5075+18.3425+29.5075+18.3425+11.165+11.165+9.65 =127.68
* Damage will actually be a tiny bit higher than this, because the math used here assumes Sneak Attack can only apply to the first attack every round, and if that attack misses, then Sneak Attack does not apply for the round...

[Malifice]

Yeah, its weird. Youre only surprised if you notice no-one.

In 3.x the 'surprisers' got a free half round, and 'the surprised' couldnt act until real round 1.

In 5e, the surprised are only surprised (and miss turn 1) if they notice no enemies at all.

It's really important for assassins. In this case, no-one is surprised (the monsters can see the Wizard) so there is no assassinate.