Locating metal

[Kaiten]

Background: Playing in a campaign where modern day people have been tossed into a fantasy world, currently with no other humanoids around. Unfortunately while they are surviving, they are pretty much stuck in the stone age until they can find better materials than clay, wood, and mud. All the metal they have to them is perhaps a pound or two of cans that had been brought with them.

The party in this camp of people(Well now Gray Elves to their surprise) consists of my Artificer and a fellow players monk, others are yet to be determined by the DM npcs, though some hints are that spellcasters are among them. Being from modern times they are well aware of the existence of metals and other such materials and would much prefer to find it within their lifetimes instead of generations down the road.

What options are available to our characters? I am aware of the Rod of Metal and mineral detection but even if my character can make that it would only lead to that which is within 30 feet right? Divination based spells seem to lead more to learning where specific things or people are as opposed to"Where's some iron?".

I am going to be a boring artificer if I am stuck making things out of rocks and bitter tears.

[Nifft]

What classes exist?

Can you call in Elementals and Outsiders?

Can you use lesser planar binding to bargain with Azer tribes for access to elemental ores?

How long until wall of iron + fabricate are options?

[Kaiten]

All 3.5 classes exist other than the Tome of Battle related ones.

Calling but difficult since while this DM will accept the idea of innately knowing/learning spells based on the class, trying to sell the idea that my, or any of these characters would know of such outsiders is more difficult.

Both Iron Wall and Fabricate are a few levels off, though I was hoping for something that would eventually be shifted more to a larger scale operation than a couple mages making iron appear. Preferably mining, or yes bargaining.

[frost890]

Knowledge nature will let you know how to find different types of metal. Many of the gold and silver mines during the gold rush were literally found by stumbling across them. Creating an Item to mimic the spell locate object or cast the spell(2ed LVL spell). Craft armor or weapon would still be needed to make it. Now as a Artificer you can make magic weapons that are magically stronger then iron. Your main focus is probably best sighted on what you can find. I had a Cleric that shocked the GM because we killed something they thought we would have to run from. He then took its leg bone and the shoulder blades and made a great axe for the Barbarian. A wooden dart will work fine if it tries to worm its way deeper in to the victim. A large rock will make a good shield if you animate it. just remember do not think inside the box. Set it on fire and go to the supply store... witch for your class is everything around you.

[Jowgen]

There are rules for knowing what resources of the different types of resources (plant, vegetable, mineral) there are in a given area. It's a Knowledge(Nature) check with varying degrees of success. See Dragon Magazine issue 333 p. 91. Hope that helps. :smallsmile:

[Kaiten]

I hadn't know there was an article for using Knowledge Nature in that way. That will actually prove to be very helpful, even if it means some cross class training.

And to Frost890, I of course intend to make things out of other materials we find. The gear of the PCs was less a concern for me as the tools of the commoners. I didn't explain well enough though that the plot of this campaign also involves a village worth NPCs who are essentially accustom to our modern conveniences. I can support the needs of the party in making magic items and using infusions, but from a character perspective the goal is also to help a displaced people flourish in this very foreign land.

I hope to at least get them to the point of using metal tools instead of infusing their farm implements to +1s daily or even relying on a few artificer-made magic items. Based on how this DM runs things(Not to say it hasn't been enjoyable) I fear the settlement will otherwise quickly wind up dead if the the PCs ever leave for more than a few weeks.

[Kaiten]

After glancing over the Dragon Magazine article it looks like that should help me a lot, even if the DCs I am looking at will be a little difficult at the lower levels. Thank you very much for that.

That said, if anyone has more leads I could look into it'd definitely be appreciated. I realize I am putting a lot of restrictions on it so I wouldn't be surprised if Knowledge: Nature checks are my best bet.

[Nifft]

Did that article cover bog iron?

What about magical wood types that are as strong as steel? Those could be used to bootstrap heavier industry (i.e. make mining implements from duskwood or whatever it's called).

[Flickerdart]

If there are no other humanoids, then metals should be readily available from meteors or surface deposits. All such resources have been long exhausted in our times because we consumed all of them, but if nobody has, they'll be around.

Since "find the deposit of metal" is a super-boring minigame, you could always just have the players make Profession: Miner and say that the profession check involves finding metals as well as mining them.

[The Viscount]

You can always use transmute rock to mud in the likely area, then go through it with sieves and water.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is a god of metal. Cast a little divination and simply ask. Commune likely works. He can give short answers.

What direction is the nearest iron deposit? Cool, how far? What landmark should I look for to find it? Thanks bud, I'll make sure that this backwards tribe learns to worship you!

[Telonius]

I'd suggest watching Gilligan's Island for some inspiration. If your artificer can't make a working robot out of coconuts and bamboo, he's not really trying. :smallbiggrin:

[Kaiten]

Did that article cover bog iron?

What about magical wood types that are as strong as steel? Those could be used to bootstrap heavier industry (i.e. make mining implements from duskwood or whatever it's called).

I believe that the article covered having the knowledge to see the signs of any natural resources in the area so I think I can consider bog iron part of that. It also covers knowing the useful properties, mundane and magical of plants and animals.


If there are no other humanoids, then metals should be readily available from meteors or surface deposits. All such resources have been long exhausted in our times because we consumed all of them, but if nobody has, they'll be around.

The surface deposit argument might be difficult for me unless I find something to support this claim, so I might have to do a little out of game research to find articles that mention this to show to him.(And hope he would let land in a D&D world be the same as real life.)


You can always use transmute rock to mud in the likely area, then go through it with sieves and water.

No doubt very useful for us once we get nearer a sure source of metal. While the PCs won't be overseeing the gathering of metals all the time, it would help speed things along when they were.


There is a god of metal. Cast a little divination and simply ask. Commune likely works. He can give short answers.

What direction is the nearest iron deposit? Cool, how far? What landmark should I look for to find it? Thanks bud, I'll make sure that this backwards tribe learns to worship you!

There is an issue in our characters and our settlement have no idea there even are gods in this setting. I am on board with the idea if I can figure some way to stumble upon the realization of deities existing. I just can't figure out how to do so without it sounding shoehorned in, something our DM definitely won't take kindly to.


I'd suggest watching Gilligan's Island for some inspiration. If your artificer can't make a working robot out of coconuts and bamboo, he's not really trying.

This one made me chuckle. Nothing to say that isn't still on the table too. I'm sure my DM might make that cheap for me too just because it amuses him.

[Flickerdart]

The surface deposit argument might be difficult for me unless I find something to support this claim, so I might have to do a little out of game research to find articles that mention this to show to him.(And hope he would let land in a D&D world be the same as real life.)
Why wouldn't land in a D&D world be the same as in real life? D&D has no rules for geological processes that create metal ore deposits. There's nothing special or sacred about the surface of the Earth to decree that metals can only appear X metres underground.

[Kaiten]

Why wouldn't land in a D&D world be the same as in real life? D&D has no rules for geological processes that create metal ore deposits. There's nothing special or sacred about the surface of the Earth to decree that metals can only appear X metres underground.

Well, while a game I DM might allow it. This DM, and others I have played with tend to go with the "If the book doesn't describe it then it is as I envision it". I just feel I'd have less trouble by showing him a few things related to it, and perhaps doing a good real life diplomacy check. I certainly like the idea, I just feel I can't just get it accepted without a little effort on my part.

[Curmudgeon]

Why wouldn't land in a D&D world be the same as in real life? D&D has no rules for geological processes that create metal ore deposits. There's nothing special or sacred about the surface of the Earth to decree that metals can only appear X metres underground.
Yes, land in D&D on the Material Plane works like in real life. In real life, denser materials get covered by lighter stuff naturally. People pan for gold in streambeds because the water carries the lighter material downstream, leaving the gold behind. On dry ground exposed metal ore is quite rare.

[Nifft]

Yes, land in D&D on the Material Plane works like in real life. In real life, denser materials get covered by lighter stuff naturally. People pan for gold in streambeds because the water carries the lighter material downstream, leaving the gold behind. On dry ground exposed metal ore is quite rare.

Indeed.

And that's before the herd of rust monsters trundle through.

[Kaiten]

Indeed.

And that's before the herd of rust monsters trundle through.

And now I must hope my DM never visits this site. That's just cruel.

[P.F.]

Knowledge: Nature; Profession: Prospecting; Profession: Mining; Profession: Smelting; Craft: Bronzesmithing; Craft: Blacksmithing; will get you started. You'll probably want to get Craft: Weaponsmithing; and Craft: Armorsmithing online as soon after that as possible.

The DCs for finding iron ore will probably be lower than that for other base metals, at least on Earth iron ore is extremely common. Conversely, the DC for smelting may be higher for iron.

You'll want to start training more spellcasters right away too.

[unseenmage]

In my sig you'll find a list of useful plants. Among them is the Orevine a plant that draws metals up from the ground and bears them as fruit.

There's also a high-ish level druid spell that let's one scry the landscape across a broad distance. It only shows natural features though.

I also suggest the Dwarf Fortress approach to this problem; that goblinite is plentiful when local populuses are properly provoked.
Harvesting the metal from fallen foes is sure to lead to DF style *FUN* regardless.

[Kaiten]

You'll want to start training more spellcasters right away too.

Definitely something I intend to do once the characters and npcs have a more firm grasp of what is going on in this setting they found themselves in.


In my sig you'll find a list of useful plants. Among them is the Orevine a plant that draws metals up from the ground and bears them as fruit.

I could see a lot of use in that. Thank you. Hah, and of course loot is always ideal, sadly we have only come across aggressive woodland critters so far.

[unseenmage]

...

I could see a lot of use in that. Thank you. Hah, and of course loot is always ideal, sadly we have only come across aggressive woodland critters so far.

The druid spell I was thinking of was Lay of the Land from Spell Compendium by the way.

[Seginus]

The book isn't out yet, but in my upcoming Path of Iron supplement for Pathfinder I made a spell for this purpose. The tricky part would be getting the focus component (a bit of iron ore) to cast the spell in the first place:

DETECT METALS AND ORES
School divination [metal]; Level alchemist 1, ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, vanguard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a small bit of iron ore)
Range 60 ft. or long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level), see text
Area cone-shaped emanation
Duration concentration, up to 1 min./level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
This spell allows you to detect metal within its area, either worked or unrefined. When you cast detect metals and ores, you must designate whether you want to find either metal or metal ore. The spell functions differently depending on your choice.
If you choose to detect metal, the spell detects all worked metal in a 60-foot cone. This includes weapons, armor, doors, tools, constructs, and so on that are made of a refined metal or metal alloy. This version of the spell can penetrate barriers, but 3 feet of wood or dirt or 1 foot of stone blocks it.
If you choose to detect ores, the spell detects all unrefined metal within a long range (400 ft. + 40 ft./level). This version is not blocked by barriers, wood, dirt, or stone, but can only detect unrefined ore, whether it has been mined or is still in the ground. Metal that has been smelted down or refined in any way is not detected by this version of the spell.
With either choice, you can choose to only detect a specific form of metal (such as iron, mithral, or adamantine), in which case the spell only shows you the location of that specific metal.

[Bronk]

It could be that success won't be possible for story reasons... You might want to check out the metal-less 'Dark Sun' rules from Dragon 319 p39 to see if there's anything there you want to make.

[Cirrylius]

I'm not sure if you can expand it beyond the range of summoning, but my group once used elementals to earth glide around and look for ore concentrations. Our DM's pretty lose, so he let the elemental apply earth glide selectively and handwaved it bringing stuff back to us.

In that case it turned out to be a diamond the literal size of an SUV because The DM Giveth And The DM Trolleth Away, but you might be able to argue a case for an earth elemental sifting various concentrations of ores or metals with its hands as it goes.

[Flickerdart]

In that case it turned out to be a diamond the literal size of an SUV because The DM Giveth And The DM Trolleth Away, but you might be able to argue a case for an earth elemental sifting various concentrations of ores or metals with its hands as it goes.
Diamonds are crystals. Crystalline weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/specialMaterials.htm) are a thing in 3.5.

[Bronk]

I'm not sure if you can expand it beyond the range of summoning, but my group once used elementals to earth glide around and look for ore concentrations. Our DM's pretty lose, so he let the elemental apply earth glide selectively and handwaved it bringing stuff back to us.


I noticed that the OP might have some spellcaster NPCs as part of the party... If you can convince them to take the 'improved familiar' feat, they can choose a small earth elemental as their familiar, which would last indefinitely instead of a few rounds at a time with the 'summon monster' spells.

[Vizzerdrix]

I read the title as Lactating Metal and was all like :smallbiggrin:

Then I looked again and was like :smallfrown:

[Kaiten]

The druid spell I was thinking of was Lay of the Land from Spell Compendium by the way.

Very helpful, and from what I can see, I can cheat and use the the spell level 1 version ranger has access to.


The book isn't out yet, but in my upcoming Path of Iron supplement for Pathfinder I made a spell for this purpose. The tricky part would be getting the focus component (a bit of iron ore) to cast the spell in the first place:

I definitely appreciate it, though I am still in the process of sweet talking my DM into opening up to involving pathfinder material in our games. If I can manage that though I spell that does all the work for me is fantastic.


It could be that success won't be possible for story reasons... You might want to check out the metal-less 'Dark Sun' rules from Dragon 319 p39 to see if there's anything there you want to make.

I'll have to look over that as well. While he hasn't done his usual hinting that metal is unavailable, if such is the case, or if it turns out to be too difficult, alternatives are great to have.


I'm not sure if you can expand it beyond the range of summoning, but my group once used elementals to earth glide around and look for ore concentrations. Our DM's pretty lose, so he let the elemental apply earth glide selectively and handwaved it bringing stuff back to us.

I could float the idea with him. An elemental sifting through for some materials would make for a much easier start for us.


Diamonds are crystals. Crystalline weapons are a thing in 3.5.

I completely forgot about crystalline weapons and the like. Alternative materials are just as wonderful to me as metal, perhaps even more so perhaps when it comes to the flavor of a society using crystal.


I noticed that the OP might have some spellcaster NPCs as part of the party... If you can convince them to take the 'improved familiar' feat, they can choose a small earth elemental as their familiar, which would last indefinitely instead of a few rounds at a time with the 'summon monster' spells.

My character does have a pretty decent amount of charisma to him, and as the settlements head crafter perhaps he could give a good argument to convince an up and coming mage how useful a familiar of that sort could be. I do like the idea of the elemental sticking around instead of poofing out.


I read the title as Lactating Metal and was all like

Then I looked again and was like

With all the wonderful help I have already perceived in this thread, perhaps I'll craft an iron golem wetnurse sometime down the line.

[elonin]

Your character and another are aware of iron and the others aren't aware of it. Do the characters who are aware of it know what iron ore looks like? Do they know how to heat it to a high enough temperature to remove the impurities? Or the understanding of how much carbon to add? It would be difficult enough for people today trying it with direct access to the internet.

[Kaiten]

Your character and another are aware of iron and the others aren't aware of it. Do the characters who are aware of it know what iron ore looks like? Do they know how to heat it to a high enough temperature to remove the impurities? Or the understanding of how much carbon to add? It would be difficult enough for people today trying it with direct access to the internet.

Both PCs and all the npcs are aware of what iron is. My character had enough knowledge to have a hint at it and through skill training amid leveling up might be allowed a better idea. I believe the DM is allowing for some of this knowledge to just be acquired as my character levels as an artificer, from there it can be shared with the others.

[Cirrylius]

With all the wonderful help I have already perceived in this thread, perhaps I'll craft an iron golem wetnurse sometime down the line.

"SLEEP, LITTLE DUMPLING- I HAVE REPLACED YOUR MOTHER."

*retractable bottle extends*

[Azoth]

Your character and another are aware of iron and the others aren't aware of it. Do the characters who are aware of it know what iron ore looks like? Do they know how to heat it to a high enough temperature to remove the impurities? Or the understanding of how much carbon to add? It would be difficult enough for people today trying it with direct access to the internet.

The thought of building a vertical charcoal forge to smealt the ore into a bloom would be annoying. Harvesting the bloom, spark testing it, breaking it apart, and then restacking the fragments into a good arrangement to forge weld the mess into a workable billet...would be maddening. Then, finally being able to heat the billet up so you can start forging your intended item manually is soul crushing. No power hammer, no precision controlled forges for heating/tempering, no belt sanders for smoothing/removing scale/setting bevels or fullers, no easy access oils for quenching...it makes me want to cry.

[Kaiten]

"SLEEP, LITTLE DUMPLING- I HAVE REPLACED YOUR MOTHER."

*retractable bottle extends*

And that's actually the dialogue I had in mind if I did end up getting away with nannybot.

[Coidzor]

Well, there's always the old fashioned way of looking for surface deposits of either native copper or iron ore, which is going to involve scouting or just moving through the woods until you find a place that's hilly or rocky nearby to look in. If there's been no other humanoids around, then it's quite possible that such surface deposits haven't been depleted... if they're in an area that has copper deposits.

Iron ore is a fair bit more common, but there area also areas that just wouldn't have any either. If they can manage a good kiln I think they can probably smelt down even just a hematite boulder into some amount of usable iron, though.

Native copper being incredibly easy to work is and was a good first start on having metal tools at all. Fairly unlikely to find copper and tin in the same area though from what I recall of geology, so it's quite likely that they'd want to move straight to acquiring iron ore and assembling furnaces hot enough to smelt it using charcoal after acquiring copper if they don't just give up on copper in the first place.


Yes, land in D&D on the Material Plane works like in real life. In real life, denser materials get covered by lighter stuff naturally. People pan for gold in streambeds because the water carries the lighter material downstream, leaving the gold behind. On dry ground exposed metal ore is quite rare.

Which also means that unless entities have destroyed, covered over, or otherwise exploited surface deposits of native metals and minerals, those should exist in D&D land. IIRC areas that were previously covered by the sea, especially creek beds in such areas, are the most common places to find iron ores without having to dig or be in a mountainous region, though.

So scouting along creeks and streams and following rivers upstream to find the mountains and the tributaries they come from would be one tactic, I suppose, though it would be a lot of hoofing it.


And that's before the herd of rust monsters trundle through.

Can Rust monsters effect ores? ...What happens if they try to rust rust for that matter? :smallconfused: Or do they just eat natural rust? IIRC Banded iron is basically just layers of natural rust wedged between other sedimentary stone layers. Hematite seems like it would be too much of a true stone for rust monsters to eat unless they explicitly eat ores and stones too.

If they can eat the rust that's in banded iron ore, they still wouldn't be able to get at all of the iron ore of a banded iron deposit just due to physics, unless I've forgotten that they're also good at burrowing through solid rock or something. And the signs of rust monsters having dug into a rock face might be an even more obvious clue that there's some kind of ore in there than just visually recognizing banded iron from a distance.


Did that article cover bog iron?

What about magical wood types that are as strong as steel? Those could be used to bootstrap heavier industry (i.e. make mining implements from duskwood or whatever it's called).

Bronzewood is the wood that's of most interest, I believe. There's probably a few others between various sources and all, but that's the one from Eberron. Darkwood is just lighter than normal wood but otherwise has basically the same durability. Soarwood is even lighter, of course. And then live wood would be a bit like a self-repairing wooden tool that was alive and thus immune to disintegrate, IIRC.