Arcane Ward: Abuse or Functioning as Intended?

[Santra]

There are a few ways to charge your arcane ward that dont require you losing spell slots. Casting alarm as a ritual, multiclassing warlock, and (as I realized recently) casting nondetection through the Svirfneblin Magic feat. These methods are all a bit cheesy (I am sure most will agree with this) but is it REALLY abusing Arcane ward?

Does the bonus gained by doing these really give enough of a bonus to count as abuse? Not even counting that each of these comes at a cost (multiclassing, time, and an ASI respectively).

[JoeJ]

I wouldn't call them abusive. All any of them can do is recharge the ward after it's been damaged; the number of hit points in it can't be increased about the starting value.

[Kryx]

It definitely feels cheesy, no matter if the number of hp absorbed is broken or not.

If it's not unbalanced I'd rather the ward recovered a certain amount every hour than having to spam cast alarm to fill it.

[Vogonjeltz]

There are a few ways to charge your arcane ward that dont require you losing spell slots. Casting alarm as a ritual, multiclassing warlock, and (as I realized recently) casting nondetection through the Svirfneblin Magic feat. These methods are all a bit cheesy (I am sure most will agree with this) but is it REALLY abusing Arcane ward?

Does the bonus gained by doing these really give enough of a bonus to count as abuse? Not even counting that each of these comes at a cost (multiclassing, time, and an ASI respectively).

I'd say no, it is casting a spell of that level or higher, plus it requires an additional 10 minutes per casting.

What's unclear is if the ward can even gain points when it's not at 0. Relevant text with bolded phrasing:

"While the ward has 0 points, it can't absorb damage, but its magic remains. Whenever you cast an abjuration spell of 1st level or higher, the ward regains a number of hit points equal to twice the level of the spell."

So... it should be noted that the these two sentences are specifically set aside in their own paragraph, but the question is, does the Whenever actually mean anytime the ward is at 0 hit points?

[TopCheese]

I'd say no, it is casting a spell of that level or higher, plus it requires an additional 10 minutes per casting.

What's unclear is if the ward can even gain points when it's not at 0. Relevant text with bolded phrasing:

"While the ward has 0 points, it can't absorb damage, but its magic remains. Whenever you cast an abjuration spell of 1st level or higher, the ward regains a number of hit points equal to twice the level of the spell."

So... it should be noted that the these two sentences are specifically set aside in their own paragraph, but the question is, does the Whenever actually mean anytime the ward is at 0 hit points?

Eh, Wotc is not know for their editing ability or their mastery of the English language.

We should probably just take it at face value.

1: While the ward has 0 points, it can't absorb damage, but its magic remains.

2: Whenever you cast an abjuration spell of 1st level or higher, the ward regains a number of hit points equal to twice the level of the spell.

They could have said "Additionally when the ward has 0 points and you cast an abjuration spell of 1st level or higher...etc..." but they didn't and they did use that wording in other places in the book when they had additional stuff to add to a specific part of the rules.

I would also just use the stacking rules like with temp HP. The points won't add up but the highest number replaces any other number.

*shrug*

[bid]

If the "its magic remains" wasn't there, a level 20 wizard could recreate it to 45 thp with any level 1 abjuration spell. As it stands, that level 1 spell would only bump it by 2 thp.

And yes, as it stands you can cast it 10 times to regain 20 thp.

[MaxWilson]

Spamming Nondetection as a Svirfneblin is, IMO, cheesey. I would not disallow it as a DM because it's not that strong but I would roll my eyes at the player because it is indeed cheesey and ridiculous.

"Really? You're going to sit there casting Nondetection on yourself over and over because it happens to strengthen your Arcane Ward as a side-effect?"
"Yup. It's not crazy if it works."
"Everybody will think you're paranoid."
"I'll just tell them it's a svirfneblin thing. They wouldn't understand."

BTW, when I say it isn't that strong, I don't mean it's balanced. Clearly it isn't, and it makes the Svirfneblin an extremely strong choice for any abjuror, to the point where you'd probably never play an abjuror who wasn't a Svirfneblin, and you might never play a gnome who wasn't a Svirfneblin either. Svirfneblins already have lots of tasty abilities including improved darkvision, +2 to Int, Stone Camouflage, and semi-Magic Resistance, and letting them have rechargeable Arcane Ward probably does break the abjuror's design constraints in a way it wasn't intended to be broken, hence "cheesey." What I do mean when I say it isn't that strong is that it is a minor force multiplier, making the party perhaps 20% more efficient but still leaving them on roughly the same tier of power, unlike things like Wall of Force, Conjure Animals, Animate Dead, and Planar Binding, which completely break the party out of the box. Compare Arcane Ward to Animate Dead (4 AC 18 armored zombies with close to 40 effective HP, for a single 3rd level spell slot and no concentration requirement) and a free 16 HP per distinct combat at level 6 via Arcane Ward looks pretty mild. It's barely better than the Inspired Leader feat, which at the same level would be giving 11 HP per short rest to everyone in your party, or 132-ish HP per day. Strong and worthwhile, but not a game-changer or a game-breaker.

[JakOfAllTirades]

IMHO, using an at-will Warlock Invocation (Armor of Shadows) to recharge Arcane Ward might be considered extremely cheesy. That's a lot of HP which are effectively free. (Along with all the other goodies that come from a 2-level dip into the Warlock class.)

[Kryx]

If a svirfneblin spamming nondetection or a warlock spamming mage armor is cheesy, wouldn't a normal caster spamming alarm be cheesy?

It's definitely less effective, but the concept isn't any less cheesy imo.

[Silavor]

A lot of these issues were discussed in a Sage Advice column a while back. I'm surprised no one has brought it up already.


Is an abjurer’s Arcane Ward healed only when the ward has 0 hit points?
The ward regains hit points whenever the abjurer casts an abjuration spell of 1st level or higher, not just when the ward has 0 hit points.




Does casting alarm as a ritual heal Arcane Ward?
Any abjuration spell of 1st level or higher cast by an abjurer can restore hit points to his or her Arcane Ward. As is normal for healing, the ward can’t regain more hit points than its hit point maximum: twice the wizard’s level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.




How does Arcane Ward interact with temporary hit points and damage resistance that an abjurer might have?
An Arcane Ward is not an extension of the wizard who creates it. It is a magical effect with its own hit points. Any temporary hit points, immunities, or resistances that the wizard has don’t apply to the ward.
The ward takes damage first. Any leftover damage is taken by the wizard and goes through the following game elements in order: (1) any relevant damage immunity, (2) any relevant damage resistance, (3) any temporary hit points, and (4) real hit points.

[Kryx]

Ya, it's good to clear up what is RAW.

The debate that is being had now is related to the recharge. The item being discussed is the cheesy feel of spamming spells for a secondary benefit. Cheese is a dirty feeling that borders on feeling like cheating. It is not always related to RAW or RAI (though can be).

[TopCheese]

"Really? You're going to sit there casting Nondetection on yourself over and over because it happens to strengthen your Arcane Ward as a side-effect?"
"Yup. It's not crazy if it works."
"Everybody will think you're paranoid."
"I'll just tell them it's a svirfneblin thing. They wouldn't understand."


Being paranoid keeps you alive in D&D, this has been true since the beginning. We should encourage more players to be paranoid, in increases the likelihood of them doing cool/interesting things.

Anyways, with so many ways to deal with PCs that don't go through HP, I'm under the impression that it isn't as broken as many may believe. If you can't find a way to mess over or challenger a wizard that has an HP buffer... Then you aren't trying hard enough.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Being paranoid keeps you alive in D&D, this has been true since the beginning. We should encourage more players to be paranoid, in increases the likelihood of them doing cool/interesting things.

Anyways, with so many ways to deal with PCs that don't go through HP, I'm under the impression that it isn't as broken as many may believe. If you can't find a way to mess over or challenger a wizard that has an HP buffer... Then you aren't trying hard enough.

Actually, I think paranoia in d&d is a little overrated, fun-wise (and I say this as traditionally one of the most paranoid players I know - a sad symptom of over-DMing), for that way lies routine, standard operating procedures and repetitiveness.

Regardless, I wouldn't treat people using rituals or at-will abilities to recharge the ward as abusive. It makes perfect sense in character (they're a freaking wizard. They know how their spells and abilities work, and recharging your defences is a perfectly reasonable thing to do), and it requires either takes a freaking long time (a ritual casting takes 10 minutes, and I believe alarm is the only abjuration ritual barring forbiddance, which has a 1000gp price tag - so 5 minutes per hit point of the ward), being a specific race and blowing a feat, or dipping a level in warlock. Overall free recharging is either rather inconvenient or expensive.

[djreynolds]

Spamming Nondetection as a Svirfneblin is, IMO, cheesey. I would not disallow it as a DM because it's not that strong but I would roll my eyes at the player because it is indeed cheesey and ridiculous.

"Really? You're going to sit there casting Nondetection on yourself over and over because it happens to strengthen your Arcane Ward as a side-effect?"
"Yup. It's not crazy if it works."
"Everybody will think you're paranoid."
"I'll just tell them it's a svirfneblin thing. They wouldn't understand."

BTW, when I say it isn't that strong, I don't mean it's balanced. Clearly it isn't, and it makes the Svirfneblin an extremely strong choice for any abjuror, to the point where you'd probably never play an abjuror who wasn't a Svirfneblin, and you might never play a gnome who wasn't a Svirfneblin either. Svirfneblins already have lots of tasty abilities including improved darkvision, +2 to Int, Stone Camouflage, and semi-Magic Resistance, and letting them have rechargeable Arcane Ward probably does break the abjuror's design constraints in a way it wasn't intended to be broken, hence "cheesey." What I do mean when I say it isn't that strong is that it is a minor force multiplier, making the party perhaps 20% more efficient but still leaving them on roughly the same tier of power, unlike things like Wall of Force, Conjure Animals, Animate Dead, and Planar Binding, which completely break the party out of the box. Compare Arcane Ward to Animate Dead (4 AC 18 armored zombies with close to 40 effective HP, for a single 3rd level spell slot and no concentration requirement) and a free 16 HP per distinct combat at level 6 via Arcane Ward looks pretty mild. It's barely better than the Inspired Leader feat, which at the same level would be giving 11 HP per short rest to everyone in your party, or 132-ish HP per day. Strong and worthwhile, but not a game-changer or a game-breaker.

Don't blame them, blame their Drow neighbors for making them this way. Now if they fudge casting non-detectable fireballs recharge their arcane ward... well that would be cool to

[TopCheese]

Actually, I think paranoia in d&d is a little overrated, fun-wise (and I say this as traditionally one of the most paranoid players I know - a sad symptom of over-DMing), for that way lies routine, standard operating procedures and repetitiveness.

Regardless, I wouldn't treat people using rituals or at-will abilities to recharge the ward as abusive. It makes perfect sense in character (they're a freaking wizard. They know how their spells and abilities work, and recharging your defences is a perfectly reasonable thing to do), and it requires either takes a freaking long time (a ritual casting takes 10 minutes, and I believe alarm is the only abjuration ritual barring forbiddance, which has a 1000gp price tag - so 5 minutes per hit point of the ward), being a specific race and blowing a feat, or dipping a level in warlock. Overall free recharging is either rather inconvenient or expensive.

When it comes to abuse/cheese you need to ask yourself one thing and only one thing.

Does it break the game?

Recharging arcane ward with a ritual doesn't break the game. Does it break the game?

The answer is no.

And to punish a player for being crafty, without breaking the game, is a horrible precedent to set.

[Kryx]

When it comes to abuse/cheese you need to ask yourself one thing and only one thing.
Does it break the game?
Breaking the game is a question to ask and would indeed cause problems, but people can be opposed to cheese without that cheese breaking the game.

For instance I would allow an abjurer Wizard to recharge his ward by spending time in a ritual to do so, but without the requirement that he now has 10 Alarms around him.

[TopCheese]

Breaking the game is a question to ask and would indeed cause problems, but people can be opposed to cheese without that cheese breaking the game.

For instance I would allow an abjurer Wizard to recharge his ward by spending time in a ritual to do so, but without the requirement that he now has 10 Alarms around him.

Calling "being crafty" cheese is derogatory and pushes for people to limit player creativity. Cheese only comes into play when you are breaking the game. (ha, being crafty cheese)

If a player out up 10 Alarms, then why wouldn't they have 10 alarms around them?

[pwykersotz]

Calling "being crafty" cheese is derogatory and pushes for people to limit player creativity. Cheese only comes into play when you are breaking the game. (ha, being crafty cheese)

If a player out up 10 Alarms, then why wouldn't they have 10 alarms around them?

I agree it's not really "cheese" per se, but it turns the game into Looney Toons to a certain extent when certain types of shenanigans come into play. The Real World™ often has diminishing returns for things like this, where only the most obsessive compulsive person would do them. For example, your house is valuable, why not put ten deadbolts on your door? They're cheap, and opening 10 deadbolts each with different keys every time you come home is a small price to pay compared to the security of the stuff inside. But we don't do that, because it's silly.

D&D doesn't model diminishing returns well though, which leads to "no consequence" spamming of at-wills (like keeping Guidance up all day). It's perfectly reasonable to quash that, as it fails to model most quintessential fantasy books/movies/tropes. In my opinion charging Arcane Ward with at-wills is perfectly fine, because it doesn't reach the level of absurdity for me, it feels more like charging your smartphone back to 100% every time you use it because you have Bluetooth, Wireless, Location Tracking, and about 100 apps running all at once and you don't want it to die. Sure you'll forget sometimes, but you really want that thing to stay charged. But I can see where it would be seen as kinda dumb.

[Kryx]

It would be like charging your smart phone by throwing it into the air and doing a performance dance 10 times.

Charging your smartphone isn't bad. Doing an entirely unrelated performance dance 10 times to do so feels incredibly silly and cheesy.


Cheesy definitions:
Urban Dicitonary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cheeser):
"in the gaming world, a person who repeatedly performs the same moves in fighting games (such as in Soul Caliber, Street Fighter, etc) in order to win"
"'Cheeser' and 'Cheesing' are terms meaning someone in gaming who spams imbalanced attacks or uses lame methods for a quick win."

It may not be game breaking, but it definitely fits the criteria for cheesy though so does much of D&D (cantrips or attacks). The difference here is they are spammed for their purpose. Arcane Ward spam spams something else that provides no benefit to get this seemingly inadvertent bonus.

[manny2510]

Casting spells that kill creatures prevents more damage. Yes, you can distribute points away from con with this, but to invest in this gimmick beyond ritual casting alarm is foolish. Also any DM worth his salt should know if they look at you too hard you will die.

[TopCheese]

It would be like charging your smart phone by throwing it into the air and doing a performance dance 10 times.

Charging your smartphone isn't bad. Doing an entirely unrelated performance dance 10 times to do so feels incredibly silly and cheesy.


Cheesy definitions:
Urban Dicitonary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cheeser):
"in the gaming world, a person who repeatedly performs the same moves in fighting games (such as in Soul Caliber, Street Fighter, etc) in order to win"
"'Cheeser' and 'Cheesing' are terms meaning someone in gaming who spams imbalanced attacks or uses lame methods for a quick win."

It may not be game breaking, but it definitely fits the criteria for cheesy though so does much of D&D (cantrips or attacks). The difference here is they are spammed for their purpose. Arcane Ward spam spams something else that provides no benefit to get this seemingly inadvertent bonus.

Sorry but arcane ward refresh via ritual isn't imbalanced (broken) or used for a quick win.

It isn't cheesy by your own definition. It isn't like a person can do this with an action, it takes at least 10 minutes to perform a ritual. Even if it was an action, your ward has a maximum number of HP it can give you. If you are wasting your action to refresh it (in battle) you are doing the least effective action to win the battle. Look at healing, very inefficient so they changed it up in 4e and took that ideology and applied it (somewhat) to 5e.

[pwykersotz]

It would be like charging your smart phone by throwing it into the air and doing a performance dance 10 times.

Charging your smartphone isn't bad. Doing an entirely unrelated performance dance 10 times to do so feels incredibly silly and cheesy.


Cheesy definitions:
Urban Dicitonary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cheeser):
"in the gaming world, a person who repeatedly performs the same moves in fighting games (such as in Soul Caliber, Street Fighter, etc) in order to win"
"'Cheeser' and 'Cheesing' are terms meaning someone in gaming who spams imbalanced attacks or uses lame methods for a quick win."

It may not be game breaking, but it definitely fits the criteria for cheesy though so does much of D&D (cantrips or attacks). The difference here is they are spammed for their purpose. Arcane Ward spam spams something else that provides no benefit to get this seemingly inadvertent bonus.

Fair points.

[coredump]

Charging your smartphone isn't bad. Doing an entirely unrelated performance dance 10 times to do so feels incredibly silly and cheesy.
but is Not unrelated. You are an ABJURATION WIZARD. Everytime you cast an ABJURATION spell you are trained to use part of that power to protect yourself with an ABJURATION ward. If you were smart enough to learn an abjure toon ritual, why wouldn't you use it whenever you could?
For you, the spell does two things, creates an alarmed space, and recharges your ward. There are lots of spells that are used for only one of their effects. Is it cheesy to cast absorb elements even if you don't do melee attacks?

[Citan]

Hi all!

Thanks for (re?)opening this debate.

My own contribution.

1. Does spell cast as ritual recharge?
RAW: YES.
Argument? The difference of formulation between this ability and the Divination lvl 6 feature which makes you regain a slot "when you cast a Divination spell of 2nd level or higher using a spell slot".
My take is that, if they needed to be explicite about it to put ritual cast outside scope, then by negation, if it's not precised it works.

2. Is it cheesy?
Well, imo, taking 10 mn to regain 2 hit points is not the best way to spend time.

The only cheese I see is the one reported by JakOfAllTirades

IMHO, using an at-will Warlock Invocation (Armor of Shadows) to recharge Arcane Ward might be considered extremely cheesy. That's a lot of HP which are effectively free. (Along with all the other goodies that come from a 2-level dip into the Warlock class.)
Didn't notice it. Imo, there is 100% chance it's not RAI.
I'd personally houserule (whatever the good RAW is) that spamming Warlock invocation does not work, and I would justify it fluff-wise by telling that since it comes from a pact, the source of the protective energy is spectral or whatever, but not arcanic, so it cannot recharge.
(I would obviously tell this to players beforehand, so that one who wanted to dip Warlock just for this may reconsider).

[JakOfAllTirades]

If a svirfneblin spamming nondetection or a warlock spamming mage armor is cheesy, wouldn't a normal caster spamming alarm be cheesy?

It's definitely less effective, but the concept isn't any less cheesy imo.

You're comparing single-action at-will abilities to a 10-minute ritual here.

[Kryx]

You're comparing single-action at-will abilities to a 10-minute ritual here.
I wasn't talking about the time - just the concept.

Time doesn't really make it any less silly - it's the spamming concept that is silly.

[coredump]

Yeah spamming is stupid. That's why I only let players use 1 healing potion a day, and only get 1 healing spell a day.
And if using can trips, you can't cast one twice, until you have cast them all at least once.

To be fair, I don't let fighters use the same weapon every turn either, they need to swap weapons or grapple.
Archers complained a bit, but I explained that using more than 5 arrows a day is just more stupid spam.... And nobody likes a spammer.


Sheesh people, that wizard is giving up two levels just to have a few more 'hit points', which means they are always a full spell level behind.
Plus they are basically wasting an invocation on Mage armor, and MCing between two classes with different spell casting attributes.

I often find that people assume something is cheesy when they didn't think of it and it had to be pointed out to them.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Charging your smartphone isn't bad. Doing an entirely unrelated performance dance 10 times to do so feels incredibly silly and cheesy.


Not if that's the only way to charge smartphones, it ain't.

If it makes it seem less silly, think of it like a dynamo torch. Casting nondetectionnondetectionnondection or whatever is the equivalent of moving your arm around in circles repeatedly to charge it up. (Though, to be fair, charging a dynamo torch does look rather silly.)

[Kryx]

Omg someone has a different opinion than you! Shame and admonish them! Everyone must have the same opinion in D&D!

Please stop.

[Santra]

Yeah spamming is stupid. That's why I only let players use 1 healing potion a day, and only get 1 healing spell a day.
And if using can trips, you can't cast one twice, until you have cast them all at least once.

To be fair, I don't let fighters use the same weapon every turn either, they need to swap weapons or grapple.
Archers complained a bit, but I explained that using more than 5 arrows a day is just more stupid spam.... And nobody likes a spammer.


Sheesh people, that wizard is giving up two levels just to have a few more 'hit points', which means they are always a full spell level behind.
Plus they are basically wasting an invocation on Mage armor, and MCing between two classes with different spell casting attributes.

I often find that people assume something is cheesy when they didn't think of it and it had to be pointed out to them.

Fine. Compare that to a Deep Gnome spamming nondetection. That deep gnome can cast a level 3 abjuration spell at will without components all for the price of one ASI on a class that is SAD. You have to admit that this is at least a little cheesy.

[TopCheese]

Fine. Compare that to a Deep Gnome spamming nondetection. That deep gnome can cast a level 3 abjuration spell at will without components all for the price of one ASI on a class that is SAD. You have to admit that this is at least a little cheesy.

Yes and that race is completely optional. It isn't something you go in automatically expecting to be able to play unless you specifically get DM permission.

Bad example.

[Ruslan]

When it comes to abuse/cheese you need to ask yourself one thing and only one thing.

Does it break the game?
Well, I'd also ask myself another thing.

Does it make the game stupid and unfun?



Yes and that race is completely optional. It isn't something you go in automatically expecting to be able to play unless you specifically get DM permission.

Bad example. Bad answer. If A and B create a (seemingly) unintended combo, the answer "well, A is optional" is, while technically correct, not very useful. Perhaps a player wants to have both A and B in his game. Perhaps the game is richer when both A and B are allowed. It's just the particular seemingly unintended combo he's bothered by.

[TopCheese]

Well, I'd also ask myself another thing.

Does it make the game stupid and unfun?


Bad answer. If A and B create a (seemingly) unintended combo, the answer "well, A is optional" is, while technically correct, not very useful. Perhaps a player wants to have both A and B in his game. Perhaps the game is richer when both A and B are allowed. It's just the particular seemingly unintended combo he's bothered by.

Since the option isn't broken...

If my fun is contingent on another player not having fun then I would question if D&D is the game for me.

As a DM, if my fun is contingent on a player not having fun, I would question if D&D is the game for me.

5e is created to be very DM dependant. You don't even go into a game saying you will take feats (unless AL) because even feats are optional. So for the Nondetection to work there has to be three questions asked to the DM.

1: Can I use Deep gnome?
2: Can I take the feat that gives me nondetect?
3: You do know I'm playing an abjuration deep gnome wizard right?.

If a DM doesn't want it because they think it breaks the game then that is one thing and fine. But to use such a specific example of a build and then call the whole thing cheesy? The option of using rituals isn't cheesy that one build may be though.

And even with deep gnome the trick doesn't become cheesy because it neither breaks the game nor is a spammable "I win" button.

[coredump]

Omg someone has a different opinion than you! Shame and admonish them! Everyone must have the same opinion in D&D!

Please stop.When people disagree with you, you call their actions 'cheesy', and even try and prove it with definitions etc. Is that somehow morally superior??

And I am not pointing out that people disagree, I am pointing out the hypocrisy in how people pick and choose what they declare as 'cheesy'. Somehow an Abjuration wizard using an Abjuration ritual to power theit Abjuration ward is 'cheesy' because 'spam'?? But no problem spamming dozens of other actions/spells/attacks, etc.
Grapple builds spam grapple attacks, etc.


Fine. Compare that to a Deep Gnome spamming nondetection. That deep gnome can cast a level 3 abjuration spell at will without components all for the price of one ASI on a class that is SAD. You have to admit that this is at least a little cheesy.
Not quite, a Deep Gnome with a specific feat can do that. And the feat is pretty weak otherwise, plus it means you can't pump your Int, so lower attacks and lower spell DCs and a weaker abjuration ward.
And it doesn't really make a difference. You aren't going to be doing this during combat....that is a waste. Out of combat it doesn't make much difference if it takes you 1 minute or 3 minutes to recharge the ward.

And is it really any more resilient than playing a dwarf and wearing half-plate? Or grabbing a level of cleric and wearing full plate?

Being an abjuration wizard gives you affinity with abjuration spells..... all abjuration spells.

[Kryx]

When people disagree with you, you call their actions 'cheesy'
The OP literally asked for opinions on the topic of it being cheesy or not, even saying it feels cheesy to him:
These methods are all a bit cheesy (I am sure most will agree with this) but is it REALLY abusing Arcane ward?

I'm stating my opinion on the topic just like the OP asked for.


And I am not pointing out that people disagree, I am pointing out the hypocrisy
No, you're just unnecessarily harassing me like you have in the last few threads. Just yesterday you came into one, made wild accusations trying to discredit my work and then left without substantiating them.

Again, I ask you to please stop harassing me. Seriously.

[Vogonjeltz]

A lot of these issues were discussed in a Sage Advice column a while back. I'm surprised no one has brought it up already.

Thank you, I'm glad there's a source to clarify that.


If a svirfneblin spamming nondetection or a warlock spamming mage armor is cheesy, wouldn't a normal caster spamming alarm be cheesy?

It's definitely less effective, but the concept isn't any less cheesy imo.

Isn't svirfneblin not an available subrace for PCs by default? That would seem to make the question a bit of a red herring.

That being said, I don't think it's problematic for the PC to be going through time-consuming rituals in order to reinforce their arcane ward. If you simply reframe it as time spent focusing their arcane energies back into their ward, then it's no big deal. Besides, any Abjuration Wizard can do that at level 18 with Spell Mastery. Sure, a partial warlock can do that earlier...but it also costs them a level of Wizard, which is a pretty painful setback for the return.

[Kryx]

If you simply reframe it as time spent focusing their arcane energies back into their ward, then it's no big deal.
100% agreed as mentioned above. My only complaint is the fluff.

[Santra]

Not quite, a Deep Gnome with a specific feat can do that.
Gnomes are quite common wizards due to the racial int buff. The OotA adventure makes deep gnomes even more common since it is quite popular right now.


And the feat is pretty weak otherwise, plus it means you can't pump your Int, so lower attacks and lower spell DCs and a weaker abjuration ward.
Blindness/deafness, blur, and disguise self each once a day (and keying off the wizards primary stat) plus nondetection at will is a pretty potent feat without any cheesing. Seeing as Deep Gnomes get a +2 int and a +1 dex they will most likely need only two ASI's to max out their only attribute that matters. That puts the wizard from getting the spell at level 12 at the latest.


And is it really any more resilient than playing a dwarf and wearing half-plate? Or grabbing a level of cleric and wearing full plate?
A couple of notes here. A Dwarf would require an additional ASI to make up for starting with 15 int (assuming point buy). As for taking a level of cleric? After that Deep gnome wizard grabbed that feat there is nothing stopping him from grabbing a level of cleric.

The entire point of this thread is discussing Arcane ward to see if these things are actually abuse.

[Coidzor]

You can have things which were not initially intended which are not abuse as well.

[JoeJ]

Whether used to recharge an Arcane Ward or not, isn't allowing a PC to cast a 3rd level spell at will without any material components just a bit OP?

Not to mention the fact that having a feat available to only one race doesn't seem to fit very well with the spirit of the game.

[Flashy]

Whether used to recharge an Arcane Ward or not, isn't allowing a PC to cast a 3rd level spell at will without any material components just a bit OP?

Eh, it's such a furiously niche spell that it's probably not going to do anything to the balance. If it was fireball, fly, or even something like phantom steed it would be way too much, but how many applications of nondetection does a party really need most days?

[JoeJ]

Eh, it's such a furiously niche spell that it's probably not going to do anything to the balance. If it was fireball, fly, or even something like phantom steed it would be way too much, but how many applications of nondetection does a party really need most days?

Once they get to the medium levels, I'd assume that their enemies are routinely using divination magic to keep track of them. At high levels, every other high level character, enemy or not, is probably doing that just in the interest of general preparedness. Being able to become immune to that at will would be extremely useful.

[Santra]

Well it is worth noting they can only cast it on themselves (it says so in the feat description) so they will just have to scry another person in the party.

[coredump]

The OP literally asked for opinions on the topic of it being cheesy or not, even saying it feels cheesy to him:

I'm stating my opinion on the topic just like the OP asked for. Do you really not see your hypocrisy?

You call other people 'cheesy', but get butthurt when your 'spamming' issue is shown to be a hypocritical stance.



No, you're just unnecessarily harassing me like you have in the last few threads. Just yesterday you came into one, made wild accusations trying to discredit my work and then left without substantiating them.

Again, I ask you to please stop harassing me. Seriously.Dude, you need to get over yourself. No one is 'harrassing' or 'stalking' you. You say things I disagree with, so I comment. This is a discussion board, we are discussing topics.

I find it comment worthy that some people (including yourself) have a problem with an abjuration wizard using abjuration spells to power his abjuration ward, when that is precisely how the Feature is designed to work.

Further, I find it hypocritical when people get all 'ooh, spam is so cheesy' for one thing, but are just hunky dory with Eldritch Blast, or Healing, or Grappling, etc.

[Starsinger]

For instance I would allow an abjurer Wizard to recharge his ward by spending time in a ritual to do so, but without the requirement that he now has 10 Alarms around him.

Am I the only one who thinks "Recharge Arcane Ward" as a ritual is what Kryx was suggesting here? Which, is an awesome idea by the way.

[Kryx]

Well, since you can't be a respectful human being I guess it's time to use the block feature.
If only people could discuss topics while allowing others to have differing opinions..



Am I the only one who thinks "Recharge Arcane Ward" as a ritual is what Kryx was suggesting here? Which, is an awesome idea by the way.
Indeed that is what I was suggesting for anyone like myself who finds the current fluff to be silly.