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Gralamin
2007-05-17, 11:21 PM
For those of you who have copies of Complete Champion, turn to page 52 and read the Spontaneous Divination Alternate Wizard feature.

For those without:
You give up - A bonus feat.

You gain - The ability to cast spells from the divination school spontaneously.

Is this cheesy or what?

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-17, 11:25 PM
Spells of any level?

And is it a limited number of times per day or unlimited?

Does it require specialization?

I really need to get a copy of CC sometime soon.

Gralamin
2007-05-17, 11:25 PM
Spells of any level?

And is it a limited number of times per day or unlimited?

Does it require specialization?

I really need to get a copy of CC sometime soon.

Any level of spell you cast.
Unlimited
No
Yes

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-17, 11:30 PM
At the cost of a single bonus feat or all your bonus feats?

Aximili
2007-05-17, 11:37 PM
Cheesy?
Yes

Surprising?
Hardly =/

Gralamin
2007-05-17, 11:37 PM
Single (and you can cast the spell, as long as you give up a spell slot of the same level. No level limit)

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-17, 11:40 PM
Yeh gods.

I know what feat all my wizards are taking now.

Jacob Orlove
2007-05-18, 12:38 AM
It's worse than people may realize. You can give up any prepared spell to cast any spell of the divination school spontaneously instead. Note that you are in no way restricted to arcane divinations. You seriously get spontaneous access to well over a hundred spells at the cost of giving up one of your bonus feats.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-18, 12:39 AM
wait... I can get divine divination spells as well?

God, that is now one of my favorite feats.

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-18, 12:41 AM
It's worse than people may realize. You can give up any prepared spell to cast any spell of the divination school spontaneously instead. Note that you are in no way restricted to arcane divinations. You seriously get spontaneous access to well over a hundred spells at the cost of giving up one of your bonus feats.

That is absolutely, utterly ridiculous. In the parlance of the internet, I do not think they thought their cunning plan all the way through.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-18, 12:44 AM
If this was Complete Batman, or Complete Win and Ownage, I don't think I'd mind so much. But in Complete Champion? I mean really.

Jacob Orlove
2007-05-18, 12:44 AM
If it were a feat, Sorcerers could take it. Can't have that.

Also, note how much better this ability is than the capstone for that weird six-option PrC later in the same book. The 10th level ability for the arcane version of that PrC (which you get after giving up a couple caster levels) is the ability to trade out prepared spells for divination spells of a lower level, that are in your spellbook. I have no idea why both of these abilities are in the same game, much less the same book.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-18, 12:51 AM
Hooray! A new wizard feat to swing my ban hammer at!

...and then slyly work into a character when playing instead of DMing.

Renegade Paladin
2007-05-18, 12:53 AM
You know, if WotC hadn't stopped doing errata, I would say I smelled errata. However, admitting to and correcting their mistakes seems to be a thing of the distant past now.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-05-18, 02:47 AM
You know, if WotC hadn't stopped doing errata, I would say I smelled errata. However, admitting to and correcting their mistakes seems to be a thing of the distant past now.Word on the street is that the errata department is getting reinstated. Let's hope this hits the chopping block posthaste.

frasmage
2007-05-18, 06:37 AM
It's worse than people may realize. You can give up any prepared spell to cast any spell of the divination school spontaneously instead. Note that you are in no way restricted to arcane divinations. You seriously get spontaneous access to well over a hundred spells at the cost of giving up one of your bonus feats.

I don't have the book, but it sounds to me like it would be spontaneously convert any spell int oa divination spell you know.

Doesn't this make far more sense? Or am I wrong and the ability really is THAT broken.

IonizedChicken
2007-05-18, 06:46 AM
Wow. First Complete Scoundrel and now this. Wizards is going downhill.

Not that it was on a very high hill in the first place, but it definitely was on some sort of hill. And now Wizards is going down it.

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-18, 07:05 AM
I don't have the book, but it sounds to me like it would be spontaneously convert any spell int oa divination spell you know.

Doesn't this make far more sense? Or am I wrong and the ability really is THAT broken.Yeah, if that isn't actually what the rule says, it's an instantly-obvious houserule.

Morty
2007-05-18, 07:10 AM
So... you give up one bonus feat, and you can spontaneously cast divination spells? Ye gods. I though that book was for paladins, clerics and monks, not for wizards to help them own even more.

Spiryt
2007-05-18, 07:16 AM
I think there is Break it even mo, Baby competition among Wizards of the Coast writers. Bets must be pretty high.

NullAshton
2007-05-18, 07:17 AM
Aren't alternate variants optional, and thus not part of RAW? Like Unearthed Arcana variants...

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-18, 07:24 AM
Not when it coutns as a substitution level, IIRC

But I'm not sure hows its worded in CC.

Roderick_BR
2007-05-18, 07:25 AM
Spontaneous Casting of divination spells? Not that much cheesy. There are worse in some PrCs and Feats, not counting Cleric's Spontaneous Casting.
It may be considered cheese because it gives access to a lot of spell, instead of single spell choices, though, but then again, divination is important and powerful, but not game breaking.
Heh, anyone remember that race from Ravenloft, where you could leave a spell slot in blank, and then when you need to cast it, you can choose any spell you know, since it's retconned that you knew in advance what spell you was going to need, because of some mystic intuition?

And on a small note: giving up a feat? That's almost like saying you just used the feat to buy it :p
And sorcerers won't need it, since they already cast spontaneously XD

Edit:
@NullAshton: The book itself is not considered RAW, as it's not core, so, no problem in asking your DM to use any alternate rule from there.

Reinboom
2007-05-18, 07:25 AM
Wow. First Complete Scoundrel and now this. Wizards is going downhill.

Not that it was on a very high hill in the first place, but it definitely was on some sort of hill. And now Wizards is going down it.

I question the integrity of this comment, are you suggesting Complete Scoundrel is broken or bad? For the former, Fiendish Codex I should be the comparison here for a single overtly broken aspect of a book (ehrm, Pazuzu.. yeh..). For the latter, there are many that would argue if Complete Scoundrel is bad, since it did introduce skill tricks and a few great PrCs (MoM, Magical Trickster, Gray Guard, Uncanny Trickster...)


This, however, is a very blatantly broken aspect, perhaps one of the worst things wizards has done in favor of.. well.. wizards since they printed the PHB 3.5 :smallsigh:

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-18, 07:38 AM
Spontaneous Casting of divination spells? Not that much cheesy. There are worse in some PrCs and Feats, not counting Cleric's Spontaneous Casting.
No, it really is that cheesy. Especially since it doesn't require that you even know the spell to spontaneously cast it.


It may be considered cheese because it gives access to a lot of spell, instead of single spell choices, though, but then again, divination is important and powerful, but not game breaking.

No, divination is game breaking. In numerous ways. Especially with this ability.


And on a small note: giving up a feat? That's almost like saying you just used the feat to buy it :p
And sorcerers won't need it, since they already cast spontaneously XD

Sorcerers lose out on the divine spells, and on Mystic Theuge goodness with this.


Edit:
@NullAshton: The book itself is not considered RAW, as it's not core, so, no problem in asking your DM to use any alternate rule from there.

RAW means every book published by WoTC for 3.5 (and a few 3.0 books that have been updated).

RAW != Core only


Oh, with this variant you can get a CL 10 higher then normal. Mystic theuge requires second level divine spells. With this variant you can spontaneously cast them. You now meet the requirements for MT without ever multiclassing.

MT adds a level to whatever class gave you divine casting and whatever class gave you arcane casting. Since this feature makes Divine casting a class feature of the wizard it can now meet the requirements. So you get 2 wizard levels per MT level now.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-18, 07:38 AM
For the former, Fiendish Codex I should be the comparison here for a single overtly broken aspect of a book (ehrm, Pazuzu.. yeh..).

It wasn't very hard, considering much of the book was pretty lackluster. Not even 1 Prestige Class(just a list pointing to other books. Whoop de fricking doo) or substitution level in sight, and the picture of the lillitu was rather "Blech!"(read: OLD. Seriously. All she needed was for the breasts to sag a little, and she would have looked like a centrefold in Playgramps. :smallyuk: Compare it to the picture of the Radiant Sister in Malcanthet's issue of Dragon). The only crunchy highlights were the Abyssal Heritor Feats, and some of the demons(Sibriex comes to mind, for the ability to graft for free. Bulezau are also useful, for the Wield Oversized Weapon ability.)

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-18, 07:41 AM
Oh, with this variant you can get a CL 10 higher then normal. Mystic theuge requires second level divine spells. With this variant you can spontaneously cast them. You now meet the requirements for MT without ever multiclassing.

MT adds a level to whatever class gave you divine casting and whatever class gave you arcane casting. Since this feature makes Divine casting a class feature of the wizard it can now meet the requirements. So you get 2 wizard levels per MT level now.

I could be wrong about this, but you still cast the spells as Arcane spells, so no Mystic Theurge for you.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-18, 07:44 AM
I'm not sure without the actual text of the ability. You may be right about you continuing to cast them as arcane spells,

Piccamo
2007-05-18, 08:13 AM
I'd like to read it first before forming my own opinion. The exact text would be good to see; I still need to pick up Complete Champion. It seems like every time Wizards debuts a new book people cry about it. If you really don't want the stuff in it you don't have to use it (or even buy it).

Ramza00
2007-05-18, 12:03 PM
Need to see the exact text.

The Barbarian 1 Lion Totem Substitution Option though is pure broken. Give up Fast Movement, get Pounce, OUCH

Piccamo
2007-05-18, 12:08 PM
Need to see the exact text.

The Barbarian 1 Lion Totem Substitution Option though is pure broken. Give up Fast Movement, get Pounce, OUCH

Pounce is nice, but its not broken. It merely allows TWFers to dip into Barb instead of something else to get their full attacks.

Ramza00
2007-05-18, 12:21 PM
Pounce is nice, but its not broken. It merely allows TWFers to dip into Barb instead of something else to get their full attacks.

Not just TWF rogues, may I introduce you to leap attack+shock trooper feat chain for fighters and other melee classes. Now throw in frenzied berserker since it just makes sense flavor wise.

---------------

Note I didn't say pounce was broken, I said Pounce at the opportunity cost(I said expense) of Fast Movement is broken. It is literally something significant from almost nothing.

Piccamo
2007-05-18, 12:34 PM
Not just TWF rogues, may I introduce you to leap attack+shock trooper feat chain for fighters and other melee classes. Now throw in frenzied berserker since it just makes sense flavor wise.

---------------

Note I didn't say pounce was broken, I said Pounce at the opportunity cost(I said expense) of Fast Movement is broken. It is literally something significant from almost nothing.

Still only broken compared to other meleers. I really don't think its all that bad compared to all the other things in there.

----------------

The ability to destroy an opponent in a single attack chain is insignificant compared to the power of magic :smalltongue:

Sutremaine
2007-05-18, 12:43 PM
There are not enough hate kittens in the world to express my feelings on this. When you write something for the wizard class that shocks Emperor Tippy, you might have overdone it just a bit.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-18, 12:45 PM
When you write something for the wizard class that shocks Emperor Tippy, you might have overdone it just a bit.

I'll drink to that.

Ramza00
2007-05-18, 12:51 PM
The ability to destroy an opponent in a single attack chain is insignificant compared to the power of magic :smalltongue:

I didn't say magic isn't stronger, I did say giving up fast movement to get pounce is broken.


Getting 1 dollar for 2 cents effort is a economic "find". Sure 10 dollars are still more than 1 dollar.

Person_Man
2007-05-18, 01:06 PM
It's now official.
http://bp2.blogger.com/_z2kUbpKX5VI/Rk3zHtCJxyI/AAAAAAAAAEk/paj92nn6RaU/s400/WOTC+jumps+the+shark.bmp
It really burns me that Sorcerers have a slow spell progression. When they wrote it, their rationale was that spontaneous spells are just that useful and powerful. And then they turned around and hand it out like candy, to Clerics (healing, Spontaneous Domains), Druids (Spontaneous Summons), various prestige classes, and now Wizards as well. It's time to reboot. D20 is a great system, and I play it on a regular basis. But the supplements have just gotten completely out of hand. I anxiously await 4.0, which will occur shortly after 3.5 becomes unprofitable.

Piccamo
2007-05-18, 01:06 PM
I didn't say magic isn't stronger, I did say giving up fast movement to get pounce is broken.


Getting 1 dollar for 2 cents effort is a economic "find". Sure 10 dollars are still more than 1 dollar.
I agree it is an excellent trade. I was using a different definition of broken. Besides, I got to butcher a SW quote so it couldn't be all bad.

Dausuul
2007-05-18, 01:07 PM
It wasn't very hard, considering much of the book was pretty lackluster. Not even 1 Prestige Class(just a list pointing to other books. Whoop de fricking doo) or substitution level in sight, and the picture of the lillitu was rather "Blech!"(read: OLD. Seriously. All she needed was for the breasts to sag a little, and she would have looked like a centrefold in Playgramps. :smallyuk: Compare it to the picture of the Radiant Sister in Malcanthet's issue of Dragon).

Yeah, I hate that artist. Have ever since his work started showing up in the Dark Sun setting, way back in the days when Second Edition walked the earth.

Although I will give him this, at least he knows basic proportions. I swear, if I see one more picture of a guy with feet the size and shape of an elephant's and fists as big as his head...


The only crunchy highlights were the Abyssal Heritor Feats, and some of the demons(Sibriex comes to mind, for the ability to graft for free. Bulezau are also useful, for the Wield Oversized Weapon ability.)

Actually, artistic issues aside, I quite liked the first Fiendish Codex. But then, I regard it as primarily a DM resource; I got it because my games are always crawling with demons and I wanted some more material.

IonizedChicken
2007-05-18, 01:17 PM
I question the integrity of this comment, are you suggesting Complete Scoundrel is broken or bad? For the former, Fiendish Codex I should be the comparison here for a single overtly broken aspect of a book (ehrm, Pazuzu.. yeh..). For the latter, there are many that would argue if Complete Scoundrel is bad, since it did introduce skill tricks and a few great PrCs (MoM, Magical Trickster, Gray Guard, Uncanny Trickster...)


This, however, is a very blatantly broken aspect, perhaps one of the worst things wizards has done in favor of.. well.. wizards since they printed the PHB 3.5 :smallsigh:

I personally think Complete Scoundrel is pretty underpowered. Sure, it has skill tricks, which are neat. but everything else I've looked at doesn't strike me as particularly useful. More than that, it strikes me as almost entirely useless. A lot of the options presented in the book are clearly inferior to those you already have.

I guess I shouldn't compare underpowered material with overpowered material but it seems both books are badly designed.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-18, 01:24 PM
The thing that is fundamentally different about Complete Scoundrel is that it's not about power. Instead, it is about looking awesome. The book is designed with a cinematic feel in mind, instead of the traditional THOG SMASH or Elminster-clone look and feel of previous Completes.

Ramza00
2007-05-18, 01:41 PM
I personally think Complete Scoundrel is pretty underpowered. Sure, it has skill tricks, which are neat. but everything else I've looked at doesn't strike me as particularly useful. More than that, it strikes me as almost entirely useless. A lot of the options presented in the book are clearly inferior to those you already have.

I guess I shouldn't compare underpowered material with overpowered material but it seems both books are badly designed.
It really helps the scout/ranger skirmisher by allowing you to do Scout 3/Ranger 17 or Scout 4/Ranger 16 picking up BAB and allowing you to skirmish pretty much everybody. Combine with Improved Skirmish and you have a damn nice archer.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-18, 01:58 PM
That doesn't really compare to something like wizard 3/mystic theurge 10/IOTSOV 10. CL 33 anyone?

Ramza00
2007-05-18, 01:59 PM
That doesn't really compare to something like wizard 3/mystic theurge 10/IOTSOV 10. CL 33 anyone?

IotSFV (also IotSV) is a 7 lvl prc.

Second, IotSFV nor mystic theurge have anything that combine its caster levels.

Third where is your divine side?

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-18, 02:00 PM
IOTSFV is a 7 level PrC

EDIT: Dammit, what I get for not refreshing.

And I think it comes from the substitution level. If you can convince someone that the spontaneous divinations that are cleric only count as divine spells. If so then MT would give you 2 wizard levels per level.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-18, 02:01 PM
Second, IotSFV nor mystic theurge have anything that combine its caster levels.

Third where is your divine side?

Read Tippy's earlier post about what this feature could mean for Mystic Theurge.

InaVegt
2007-05-18, 02:09 PM
Read Tippy's earlier post about what this feature could mean for Mystic Theurge.

People decided it wouldn't work for the rainbow servant's 10th level class feature (which specifically states your divine spells are divine), so I doubt it'd work for this class feature.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-18, 02:13 PM
People decided it wouldn't work for the rainbow servant's 10th level class feature (which specifically states your divine spells are divine), so I doubt it'd work for this class feature.

Glad to hear it.

I was just interested in answering Ramza00's question, btw. I don't really enjoy playing wizards myself.

Ramza00
2007-05-18, 02:13 PM
Read Tippy's earlier post about what this feature could mean for Mystic Theurge.
It doesn't work for divine divinations, are not a spellcasting class. Thus you won't gain new spells per day or an increase in caster level.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-18, 02:34 PM
Well actually it woudl work, if the substitution feature actually allowed you to cast cleric divinations as divine spells.

Nothing in MT prevents the same class from giving you both Arcane and Divine spells, or stops you from benefiting twice if you can get both arcane and divine spells from a class.

Quietus
2007-05-18, 02:46 PM
Well actually it woudl work, if the substitution feature actually allowed you to cast cleric divinations as divine spells.

Nothing in MT prevents the same class from giving you both Arcane and Divine spells, or stops you from benefiting twice if you can get both arcane and divine spells from a class.

If this is the case, why not find two other classes that progress both divine and arcane (I can think of the True Necromancer off the top of my head, not sure about any others), and then go something like Wiz3/Clr3/TrueNec1/Other1/MT10. End up casting .. *Counts* 3 from wiz, 3 from Clr, 1 to both from those, carry the seven... I'm counting around caster level 24-25ish as both cleric and wizard, at level 18?

Jasdoif
2007-05-18, 02:47 PM
Nothing in MT prevents the same class from giving you both Arcane and Divine spells, or stops you from benefiting twice if you can get both arcane and divine spells from a class.If you can really do that with double-progression classes, why bother debating whether you can qualify for MT with this spontaneous casting?

Go Ultimate Magus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3), since you can spontaneously cast identify, a 1st level arcane spell, with this ability.

Ramza00
2007-05-18, 02:49 PM
With Tippy Logic you could have gone Ultimate Magus with two feats prior to complete champion

Spell Mastery and Signature Spell

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-18, 02:52 PM
If you can really do that with double-progression classes, why bother debating whether you can qualify for MT with this spontaneous casting?

Go Ultimate Magus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3), since you can spontaneously cast identify, a 1st level arcane spell, with this ability.


Your right. I didn't think of UM.

You most assuredly qualify for that with this substitution level.

Hmm. Wiz 5/UM 10 for CL 22 at level 15. Then pick up archmage for a few levels. And finish it off with any other PrC of your choice. Continue UM in epic.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-18, 02:55 PM
With Tippy Logic you could have gone Ultimate Magus with two feats prior to complete champion

Spell Mastery and Signature Spell


Incorrect.

The thing that makes this all possible is CC's thing making spontaneous divinations a class feature of the wizard.

For all purposes your wizard has that ability. If it was a feat then you wouldn't qualify. At least not for the double progression. No class is giving you the ability so you can't apply the +1 CL.

If this was a feat then it wouldn't work. But its a feature.

Jasdoif
2007-05-18, 03:03 PM
Hmm. Wiz 5/UM 10 for CL 22 at level 15. Then pick up archmage for a few levels. And finish it off with any other PrC of your choice. Continue UM in epic.Don't forget Arcane Spell Power, +4 to all arcane spell caster levels at UM 10. That makes it CL 26.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-18, 03:15 PM
Don't forget to use fast progression cheese :P.

No wait, that's really stretching it.

Jacob Orlove
2007-05-18, 03:24 PM
The PHB says "Wizards cast Arcane spells." That means that spells Wizards cast are Arcane unless something specifically says otherwise. This allows you to cast spells of the divination school, but says absolutely nothing about making them Divine. That means they default to Arcane spells, which is good, because otherwise you'd dodge ASF too.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-18, 03:45 PM
Yeah, but you do qualify for UM. Which is actually better for you really.

Gralamin
2007-05-18, 10:47 PM
I log off for one night, and find its about 20 times cheesier then I thought.
So for going into ultimate magus at level 5 (minimum due to skills),and finishing at level 15, you cast as a level 22 wizard.
So great, we have an epic caster at level 15.

Renegade Paladin
2007-05-18, 10:55 PM
It wasn't very hard, considering much of the book was pretty lackluster. Not even 1 Prestige Class(just a list pointing to other books. Whoop de fricking doo) or substitution level in sight
The Monster Manual doesn't have those either. Seriously, who cares? So the DM got a book to himself for once. :smallsigh:

Aximili
2007-05-18, 11:18 PM
The Monster Manual doesn't have those either. Seriously, who cares? So the DM got a book to himself for once. :smallsigh:
My DM has been walking around with a smile 24/7 since he got cityscape.

Dhavaer
2007-05-18, 11:52 PM
Incorrect.

The thing that makes this all possible is CC's thing making spontaneous divinations a class feature of the wizard.

For all purposes your wizard has that ability. If it was a feat then you wouldn't qualify. At least not for the double progression. No class is giving you the ability so you can't apply the +1 CL.

If this was a feat then it wouldn't work. But its a feature.

Could Magelord qualify you for UM, then?

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-19, 12:19 AM
I would have to check. What book is it in?

/To many damn caster classes to keep track of. I read them once and if I don't see any use it gets forgotten

Renegade Paladin
2007-05-19, 12:20 AM
My DM has been walking around with a smile 24/7 since he got cityscape.
I must admit that I cackled with glee upon seeing chapter 6 of Dungeonscape. :smallamused:

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-19, 12:21 AM
Which chapter is that?

And Dungeonscape was a good book.

Dhavaer
2007-05-19, 12:31 AM
I would have to check. What book is it in?

/To many damn caster classes to keep track of. I read them once and if I don't see any use it gets forgotten

Lost Empires of Faerun.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-19, 12:55 AM
Hmm. Yeah, Magelord should work. At least partially. You can't go above level 10 in a prestige class pre epic.

However you gain no benefit. UM gives you +1 CL for purposes of spells, not class features. The Magelords +1 CL is a class feature. So it would get you into ultimate magnus but it wouldn't double dip your CL's.

Renegade Paladin
2007-05-19, 01:10 AM
Which chapter is that?

And Dungeonscape was a good book.
Traps. http://www.libriumarcana.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-19, 01:12 AM
Ah. A fun chapter.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-19, 05:22 AM
What's the point argueing over an exploit no sane DM would let you do. That rule might work if DnD was a computer program but DnD has a failsafe to stop you using RAW like this.

Fhaolan
2007-05-19, 08:15 AM
What's the point argueing over an exploit no sane DM would let you do. That rule might work if DnD was a computer program but DnD has a failsafe to stop you using RAW like this.


You have a sane DM? I thought they were extinct! You should stick it in a jar of formaldehyde to preserve it for all posterity.

:smallbiggrin:

Arbitrarity
2007-05-19, 10:56 AM
What's the point argueing over an exploit no sane DM would let you do. That rule might work if DnD was a computer program but DnD has a failsafe to stop you using RAW like this.

Because it's interesting. Ever done a math problem?

It's like that. Some people have fun thinking about how to pull off things like this, even if they are always blocked. It may have no practical application, but it's fun (or funny).

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-19, 02:22 PM
Because it's interesting. Ever done a math problem?

It's like that. Some people have fun thinking about how to pull off things like this, even if they are always blocked. It may have no practical application, but it's fun (or funny).

No. I don't do maths problems.

I understand character optimisation despite the fact that few people bother with such theoretical builds.

Getting into Mystic Theurge with 1 class just seems too pointless as an excercise though. Especially since it would give you no benifit.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-19, 02:27 PM
If done with a base class and without feats then it would give you a huge benefit. It would give you 10 extra wizard levels.

If you read how everything works and interacts that is what happens.

And you can get into UM with this trick after level 5. So at level 15 you have spells per day, and spells known as a level 22 wizard. Your caster level for those spells is 26.

And it works under every interpretation of the RAW.