Instant Death: Is it a good idea?

[Scorponok]

I was reading an entry on sea monsters on Wikipedia tonight, and the Aspidochelone kinda struck me as an interesting monster that could be put into a campaign. For those who don't want to look it up, it's a giant turtle/whale whose back appears to be an island. When sailors go ashore and start a campfire, it submerges, pulling them and their ship into a watery grave.

This got me thinking is such a scenario is a good idea if your players aren't of a high enough level that they can do anything about it, such as teleport away, or fly. On one hand, they are the ones who took the 'trap', but on the other hand, it feels like a jerk thing to put into a campaign because the wrong decision basically wipes out the entire party.

What are your thoughts on instant death scenarios? Do you put them in your game?

[Greenish]

How would the PCs identify such a trap, or know how to avoid it? If you just give them hints (or not even that), the goal of the game becomes "guess what the DM is thinking". If you let them potentially learn of the danger via knowledge or spot checks (say), you're basing whether the party survives or wipes on RNG. I don't see either of those options conductive to fun, at least if the players are committed to their PCs. (If you all agreed on "stones fall, you die, pull out the next character sheet from that binder I asked you to bring", well, the more power to you.)

[LordAlabast]

Oh, hey, that's the monster that made Sinbad the Sailor end up in an awful state of affairs!

I have to agree with the guy above me except for on the last part. It would be really douchey to just drop the players onto a potentially dangerous ground with no warning, but if you drop hints, or give them multiple times that they could find out the danger, it would be fine. If you give them those chances and they pass them up, it's their own fault, not yours.

[Necroticplague]

How is tht instant death? If they can swim, there's no real reason that would kill them (unless it dropped so quickly that the incoming tide from such acted like a tsunami).

[Jack_Simth]

I was reading an entry on sea monsters on Wikipedia tonight, and the Aspidochelone kinda struck me as an interesting monster that could be put into a campaign. For those who don't want to look it up, it's a giant turtle/whale whose back appears to be an island. When sailors go ashore and start a campfire, it submerges, pulling them and their ship into a watery grave.PC's should get:
1) Knowledge(Geography) to know there really shouldn't be an island there (probably DC 15-ish)
2) Knowledge ([appropriate to the beast, however you stat it, probably nature]) to recognize it for what it is.
3) Profession(Sailor) to detect it (it's a sea hazard, after all)
4) Heal to recognize that the island is in fact a living thing (DC 15-ish, again)
5) Swim to get to something that breaks off from the ship as it submerges (like, say, a supply chest that wasn't 100% tied down, and was light enough to float)

[FocusWolf413]

How is tht instant death? If they can swim, there's no real reason that would kill them (unless it dropped so quickly that the incoming tide from such acted like a tsunami).

When it moves, water needs to constantly fill up the space ot previously occupied. This generally means that the water flows towards the center and downwards. This would suck any players downwards quite quickly. It's the same reason why people jump off of a ship before it sinks. You just can't fight the force of that much water pushing you down.

Plus, if the ship goes down too (which it almost certainly would), they can't tread water forever. Eventually, they'd black out and drown.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In a general sense, I don't mind instant death effects within the RAW. The OP's suggested circumstance, however, seems to me a bit much. At the very least it would require most/all of jack smith's suggestions to make it remotely fair and, even then, it amounts to make the check(s) or game over unless you deus ex a rescue in there on failure.

I might use something like this as a plot device but probably not as an encounter.

[BowStreetRunner]

When it moves, water needs to constantly fill up the space ot previously occupied. This generally means that the water flows towards the center and downwards. This would suck any players downwards quite quickly. It's the same reason why people jump off of a ship before it sinks. You just can't fight the force of that much water pushing you down.
The key difference here is that a ship generally sinks quickly. There is no reason a giant whale-turtle has to descend that quickly. So you could as DM rule that it goes down much more slowly. It is a controlled-dive after all.

[Scorponok]

Yes, yes, of course I would give them all the knowledge checks they need to make sure they have a fair chance at avoiding it, if possible. However, a few bad rolls and it could be game over for the entire party. I dunno, as a DM, I just hate killing PCs but the alternative is to just NOT put in that monster - which is a missed opportunity for a pretty cool story. Also remember usually the melee people would be wearing medium to heavy armor which means their swim checks will have a penalty. And don't anchors work in such a way that you drag that large piece of metal along the ocean floor until it HOOKS into a piece of rock or something? If it hooks onto the turtle's shell, wouldn't the ship get dragged down with it?

If the party fails this, I think I'll deus ex machina it by having them get rescued and captured by pirates.

[jiriku]

Why not think of some interesting and non-TPK outcome ahead of time?

[Red Fel]

Older editions of D&D were designed around the idea that everything could kill you. Literally, everything. There was a monster that impersonated a wall, a monster that impersonated the ceiling, a monster that impersonated the floor; throw a mimic in there, and you have a treasure chest in the middle of a room and the room itself wants to eat you. Even those, you could theoretically fight, although high lethality was the name of the game.

The game has changed. Players expect dangers, but not all players have the same level of paranoia necessary to traverse, say, the Tomb of Horrors. Players expect, for instance, that they might fight an enemy who uses save-or-suck or save-or-die abilities, or an encounter involving overwhelming numbers. But they should also expect that they could roll well enough to survive, or be creative enough to get out of a fix.

What you're describing really comes across as a classic-style "gotcha" moment, in the old school. If the party is foolish enough to remain on the "island" for more than a certain amount of time, it sinks and in all likelihood they all die. Worse, you basically force them all into it - if one or two PCs disembark, the rest of the PCs can either sit on the ship doing nothing or join in on the adventure. Which do you think they should pick?

And therein lies the problem. They're not expecting the island itself to suddenly try to kill them. Face an enemy spellcaster, expect lethal spells. Find a lone treasure chest, expect that it might be trapped. Face a Banshee, expect her to scream. All reasonable outcomes if they go south. But as a rule, you don't expect the land itself to rise against you, particularly at low levels when you lack the tools to deal with it.

I don't like save-or-die abilities generally. I feel that destroying a character based on a single unlucky roll is a bit harsh. That said, they are a part of the game - particularly if the PCs are willing to employ them - so I'll bring them around on occasion. But this isn't that. This isn't a case of, "Well, yeah, I could see an enemy spellcaster using that spell." This is a case of "Hey, guys, the wall you just checked for traps is a stun jelly, and it's now digesting you." It requires them to make checks they don't know they need to make in order to read the DM's mind.

No, I'm not a fan.

[martixy]

Short answer is: Yes.

But very carefully.
Only after you set up the right expectations.

Which starts even before the game.

I remember coming across a table somewhere, but I don't know where exactly. I have it in my documents:


#
Lethality
Expectation


0
None
Characters may be rendered unconscious or disabled, but won't ever actually die, and won't suffer permanent injury. I love my characters and never want anything bad to happen to them. A TPK will result in the characters being rescued in some fashion.


1
Very Low
Characters who "die" can come back with a permanent penalty of some kind, but won't actually die. This does not include obviously suicidal actions (swimming in lava, etc.). I like my character, and want to play them for a long time, but I'm okay with them taking a few hits along the way. A TPK will result in something bad happening to the characters, such as being captured or robbed, but the consequences won't be permanently crippling.


2
Low
Enemies will not actively attempt to kill disabled characters, but may kill the character while attempting to disable them. Enemies will not coup de grace anyone already unconcious. I like my character, and I'd rather not die. TPKs may result in players bleeding out or naturally recovering; it will fall entirely to the rolls of the dice.


3
Normal
Enemies will attempt to kill disabled characters when the opportunity arises, but will typically focus on important threats first. I like my character, but death is a part of the game. TPKs will have varying results depending on the nature of the enemies; players may be killed or captured.


4
High
Enemies will target easy targets, and will make a concerted effort to kill as many players as possible. Death will be a serious concern. Character death is a thing; I won't let it ruin the game for me. TPKs will have varying results depending on the nature of the enemies; players may be killed or captured, but are more likely to be killed.


5
Very High
Someone will probably die every session. Encounters will be above average difficulty for your level. Combat will be fast and brutal. F**k my character, I'll roll a new one. TPKs will have varying results depending on the nature of the enemies; players may be killed or captured, but are more likely to be killed.


As Fel already mention old school D&D ranked about 4-5(maybe 6 for ToH - expect a party wipe every sesh).
The majority of today's players are probably at about 2-3.

But if everyone is on the same page and you don't deviate - sure, it's just another tool for drama in your arsenal.

As for your specific situation - well, firstly it's not instant death by any stretch of the imagination. Second - even mid-levels are likely to have ways to deal with it personally. For low-levels you just have to make sure you have a good reason(well that's true in every case, but in the later case you might actually need it to avoid being booked to death).

I personally like 3-4. No pulling punches and some enemies will be both ruthless, intelligent and efficient.
5 seems like it's going outside the game and lower levels feel weird.

[Jack_Simth]

Yes, yes, of course I would give them all the knowledge checks they need to make sure they have a fair chance at avoiding it, if possible. However, a few bad rolls and it could be game over for the entire party. I dunno, as a DM, I just hate killing PCs but the alternative is to just NOT put in that monster - which is a missed opportunity for a pretty cool story. Also remember usually the melee people would be wearing medium to heavy armor which means their swim checks will have a penalty. And don't anchors work in such a way that you drag that large piece of metal along the ocean floor until it HOOKS into a piece of rock or something? If it hooks onto the turtle's shell, wouldn't the ship get dragged down with it?Yes and no. Yes, it generally hooks onto something... but no, not really all that well (otherwise, they'd have to cut the anchor every time they decided to resume travel). Additionally, the anchor is really only intended to deal with normal drifting and currents. It takes a very unusual anchor, anchor line, and mount point on the ship to deal with the amount of stress needed to actually pull the ship under. The single most likely case is that yes, the ship will tilt, but them something will give - the anchor will bend, the rope will snap, the moorings will rip out, or some combination of the above. The ship will be damaged, but largely OK.

Oh yes, and Mythbusters did an episode on the 'getting sucked under' thing. It used to be on Netflix, doesn't seem to be anymore.

[Strigon]

Let me ask you this: what do you expect the players to enjoy about this encounter?
Your players are there to have fun, and they've let you DM because they think you can offer them that fun.
Now, let me run down the list of possibilities here.


Your players see the island, but ignore it. Nothing interesting happens.
Your players see the island, and approach. A few might go on, but they leave before the island sinks. Best case, they see the island sink, and get a bit of a rush from knowing how close death was.
Your players stick around on the island and die.


Which of those sound fun to you? Personally, I don't think any of them are fun, but maybe your group likes high-lethality RNG like that.
Another possibility is to make something happen if it sinks; they find an underwater cave with an air pocket, and they can explore it. They've got to try to make it to their ship while fending off sharks. Anything, really, because (in my opinion) there is nothing fun or interesting about this encounter as it stands. If you use this as a starting point for further development, however, it certainly has potential.

[TIPOT]

Just make it not kill them instantly? If it just dumps them in the ocean then rather than an instant party wipe you have an interesting combat encounter where the party desperately tries to get to the ship before it drifts too far away and try not to drown. All while fighting whatever smaller aquatic creatures that hang around it for easy meals.

[DrMotives]

I wouldn't use it as a TPK, instead the worse case would be that some intelligent aquatic slave-taking race (kraken, koa-toa, morkoth, something appropriate challenge level to the party) might control and hang out under the monster to come in and capture those who get trapped by the sinking island. If the PCs are fortunate enough to not be on the island when it sinks, they can plan an attack against the same aquatic enemy at a big advantage compared to the capture scenario, or just move along and let it be someone else's problem.

[ksbsnowowl]

I was reading an entry on sea monsters on Wikipedia tonight, and the Aspidochelone kinda struck me as an interesting monster that could be put into a campaign. For those who don't want to look it up, it's a giant turtle/whale whose back appears to be an island. When sailors go ashore and start a campfire, it submerges, pulling them and their ship into a watery grave.
Since no one has mentioned it yet, D&D has this monster. It is called a Zaratan, and can be found on page 88 of the Arms and Equipment Guide.

FYI, it is listed as CR 20.