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View Full Version : Rules Q&A Just another "Would a Paladin fall for this..." thread.



Yael
2015-09-27, 02:28 AM
So, last night we had a nice session by playing one of WotC's modules, and the party was resting from their first raid to the "main dungeon" or so we think, of the adventure. Anyway, we had rested on a raided by drow small town, with a leftovers of population of at most 50 (including 5 guards).

My party was composed of a Paladin, a Rogue (ninja/gunslinger), a Bard, and a Fighter, all on a NG/LG alignment. Things go as follows:

Two sessions ago, our party lost a fight against a mounted drow, the terrain was unfavourable, but we certainly asked for it, as we just had fought a Vrock, and didn't rest after that, we just healed HP. Our party bard died for a lot of circumstances, and the fighter didn't go on that session, so we had to retreat. I (the paladin), tried to resurrect the bard, but I had no luck on such task. Our friend told us he would take the role of an arcane caster, and come up with a concept next session, we were "cool", so he did. But our rogue character (ninja/gunslinger), had other plans. My character couldn't really do that much to investigate, as she (as my character) was worried about the death of our friend. We gave him a burrial (along with all his equipment), and I need to talk a bit about our rogue friend. See, this guy loves playing Chaotic Evil, and he loves playing that alignment (slaughter, rape, unnecesary bloodshed, etc), and this is the first time he plays a "good" character, so he used the bard's death as an excuse to become twisted and evil, so she started (she as his character) to murder at town. Firstly, he desecrated our fallen comrade's tomb to retrieve the equipment to sell it, and so he did; with that money, he bought a ring of mind shielding, to conceal its alignment (as I like to prepare Detect Lies/Violence/Chaos as paladin spells, and have detect evil). And then proceeded to kill the city's priest and his girlfriend, then she killed a guard. Our party was concerned about the serial murder, and we thought those would be drow, until we captured a drow alive, but he told us he hadn't anything to do with such acts, the priests wasn't elf, so they have nothing to do with that, which was true; only elves were being murdered or abducted by drow. To make it short, our rogue friend killed a total of seven people at the city, including four out of five guards of the town, a gravedigger, the priest, and its girlfriend. We figured out (which wasn't hard at all, there wasn't anyone anywhere close using firearms) that our friend had been the culprit after we found the bodies, so when she was asleep after her final murder at the barracks, I manacled her, and forced her into the prison.

In the end, the sentence of senseless murder was death, I asked if there wasn't any other way, like to move her to a bigger prison, but our fighter friend (this is now happening on yesterday's session) reminded me that she has skills to get out of prison and the like, as she is an expert disabling and opening locks. The guard told us that because of the drow riders, and other bandits, it is impossible to move her to another prison, such as Greyhawk's (which is the biggest city and closest city). So my final request was to excecute her myself, as I felt it was my responsibility that she had killed those people, and I should've known before to stop her on her tracks. I was granted my request, and he followed me. His character went nuts and told us that they deserved that, because how could they be happy and our bard friend just died, and they didn't deserve to be happy. Our DM told us that it was a valid point to swich from CG to CE, I still think that's odd, but who am I to start lawyering against the DM. So that afternoon, Vanessa Towers, on tears, smited a vile murderer.

After that, my paladin gave her sword to the guard, so she wouldn't become as vile as her friend, and decided to stay and protect the townsfolk, as they had only one guard, and they cannot move or request for help without consequences. Note to say that the weapon is a special weapon made with the rules for a Holy Avenger (from a 3rd party source), that my character was attached to, but she still thinks that's correct. She would leave the party, and assist them if something was needed from her.

I would come up with a new character next session.

Is that a reason for falling? Our party had been together from years (backstory wise), did I overreact my alignment? It is the first time I play a paladin, so I acted on the Good First, Lawful after, following what's correct and the place's rules and their proccedures. Would I fall for this?

TheCrowing1432
2015-09-27, 02:43 AM
I do not see why you would fall after executing a murderer.

Or are you asking if you would fall when asking to defend the town?

Kelb_Panthera
2015-09-27, 03:18 AM
You lawfully executed a convicted serial murderer. Where's the question here, again?

Btw, I'd think the rogue player always going stupid evil would be a serious problem. Isn't it?

SangoProduction
2015-09-27, 03:28 AM
I'm sorry but no. That is not Chaotic Evil, that's Stupid Evil, and Chaotic Stupid rolled in to one.

I play as a chaotic evil (arguably true neutral, at best, or neutral evil), and have a paladin in my group. How does this work? I don't kill someone for no reason. My character doesn't want to face backlash from the party, but still wants to be with it, so even if my character was a raging psychopath, he limits himself, and makes damned sure when he kills in a way that is unlawful, or disagreeable with the party, they he leaves no evidence, and no one see him.

Your "friend" had it coming when he played Chaotic stupid in a group where either or all of the following is true: a) he didn't get his DM's explicit permission that going murderhobo is OK in his game, and b) his character idea didn't fit the party.

MyrPsychologist
2015-09-27, 03:52 AM
Your character went to great lengths to uphold the law and the concepts of morality. You made personal sacrifices and even put these concepts above personal feelings.

This is an absolutely great example of Lawful Good behavior and I really feel like your DM should have rewarded you for navigating such a difficult situation instead of changing your alignment and making your fall.

Yael
2015-09-27, 03:59 AM
Well, the question would actually be, if I had not killed her, for example, freeing her because of her friendship on our years together, would I have fallen?

My friend didn't get mad, he actually said that he deserved that, and he would have not stopped doing that, he just got caught early. I am kind of new to roleplaying (few years of experience), and it is the first time I roleplay a character with a CoC. I am just asking this because I need some feedback on how to play such a heavy-RP requiring class as the pally.

PersonMan
2015-09-27, 04:04 AM
Freeing her would be fall-worthy, I'd say, as it goes against both the L and G of your alignment. Letting someone kill more people because you like them is Evil.

MyrPsychologist
2015-09-27, 04:06 AM
I don't think I would make you fall purely because of a single action but that is a pretty horrible one. You can't just circumvent the law and actively assist an evil individual in continuing to kill innocent people just because you have some good memories with the evil person.

SangoProduction
2015-09-27, 04:08 AM
Freeing her would be fall-worthy, I'd say, as it goes against both the L and G of your alignment. Letting someone kill more people because you like them is Evil.

If she said to the paladin's face, then yes, it would be fall-worthy. It's also why Batman is decidedly a wizard, not a paladin.

However, if you saw a chance of redemption (although damned if you could convince the guy who lost their wife that you did), even if you saw it to her face, then it would be an entirely good act, but you are now responsible for her.

Kelb_Panthera
2015-09-27, 04:23 AM
Well, the question would actually be, if I had not killed her, for example, freeing her because of her friendship on our years together, would I have fallen?

..... Maybe. It's a pretty serious violation of the code; ignoring legitimate authority, deliberately setting an evil lose in the world, I'd even hazard there's some dishonorable behavior in deceiving or disabling guards for the break. It's not a directly evil act though.

A lenient DM might give you a warning that you're now responsible for the rogue's actions (dream vision from your deity or some such) and you fall if he commits an evil act while in your charge. A strict DM would probably fall you right to the friggin' bedrock on the spot.

SangoProduction
2015-09-27, 04:34 AM
Not neccesarily, if we use Book of Vile Darkness, which lays out all evil things:

Lying is evil. (Though I'd argue it's much less evil than letting loose Evil itself.)

Cheating is evil. Depending on interpretation, getting the rogue out would cheat the system.

Betrayal. Depends on exactly how much the guards trusted you, but letting the rogue go free and go on to kill, when you were given the freedom to let her out...yeah.

Murder. Indirect, but you are a co-conspirator to her crimes.

Consorting with Fiends. Aside from not having extraplanar subtype, she is most definitely a fiend.

Bringing Despair. Indirect, again...potentially. If you pay someone to terrorize a town, are you not responsible? Likewise, if you are the reason that she can do so, are you not responsible?

Killer Angel
2015-09-27, 04:37 AM
Your actions, were perfect for a paladin. Kudos to you.


Well, the question would actually be, if I had not killed her, for example, freeing her because of her friendship on our years together, would I have fallen?

Highly probable, given her clear intentions to murder again for the fun of it.

Kelb_Panthera
2015-09-27, 07:47 AM
Not neccesarily, if we use Book of Vile Darkness, which lays out all evil things:

It's a shame how often this and it's opposite get misinterpretted.


Lying is evil. (Though I'd argue it's much less evil than letting loose Evil itself.)

If you read a tad more closely, you'll see that lying is a common tool of evil, but is not called out as evil in and of itself. Good, even exalted, characters can lie but should do so very carefully so as to avoid it leading to unnecessary harm.


Cheating is evil. Depending on interpretation, getting the rogue out would cheat the system.

Ditto to this one. This is exactly the kind of thing that gets these two books such a bad name. Just because villains do these things doesn't mean they are, themselves, evil.


Betrayal. Depends on exactly how much the guards trusted you, but letting the rogue go free and go on to kill, when you were given the freedom to let her out...yeah.

This one's pretty spot on.


Murder. Indirect, but you are a co-conspirator to her crimes.

Only under the most extreme or unusual circumstances should one character be held responsible for the actions of another. The paladin also isn't a "co-conspirator." For that to be true he would have to have conspired with the ninja to kill those people but he knew nothing about it and turned the ninja over to the authorities as soon as he found out. This one is a total non-starter, at least until after the pally busts the ninja out of jail.


Consorting with Fiends. Aside from not having extraplanar subtype, she is most definitely a fiend.

Hells no. That section is very plainly talking about trucking with demons, devils, yugoloths and the like.


Bringing Despair. Indirect, again...potentially. If you pay someone to terrorize a town, are you not responsible? Likewise, if you are the reason that she can do so, are you not responsible?

More likely outrage than despair. That said, this particular extreme situation might warrant the paladin taking responsibility for the ninja's actions but normally a character should only be held responsible for his own actions. Enacting a plan that is intended to bring harm to others is an evil act in itself, regardless of the outcome. Doing something that may, or even likely will, result in bad things happening with the best of intentions to prevent that harm is not, even if you fail.

ericgrau
2015-09-27, 09:46 AM
Nope, not falling for killing a murderer when there is no legal recourse. That's nearly the definition of a paladin adventurer.

Btw a rogue or etc. still needs improvised tools to escape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#thievesTools), but you didn't know that so it's moot. Heck I doubt your DM knew that.

OldTrees1
2015-09-27, 12:28 PM
After that, my paladin gave her sword to the guard, so she wouldn't become as vile as her friend, and decided to stay and protect the townsfolk, as they had only one guard, and they cannot move or request for help without consequences. Note to say that the weapon is a special weapon made with the rules for a Holy Avenger (from a 3rd party source), that my character was attached to, but she still thinks that's correct. She would leave the party, and assist them if something was needed from her.

Is that a reason for falling? Our party had been together from years (backstory wise), did I overreact my alignment? It is the first time I play a paladin, so I acted on the Good First, Lawful after, following what's correct and the place's rules and their proccedures. Would I fall for this?

No you would not fall, at my table, from this.
1) The action of lawful and justified execution is at the minimum morally permissible.
2) Your Paladin made a serious effort to find any better option(better than morally permissible = morally supererogatory).
3) Your Paladin reacted with disappointment to outright shame at failing to find a better option.
With 3/3 your Paladin is a good example of how a Paladin would react to this scenario.

Now, I do think your Paladin is having a greater than average feeling of shame over this incident (giving up your Holy Avenger, leaving the party, and staying to protect these townfolk as penitence). However it is not an unreasonable excess. Personally I would expect the Paladin might rejoin the party after some time away.

Now you also wonder about hat if you had let the murderer free. In the basic case that would be wildly irresponsible and enabling of more evil. So the basic case would have been a stain on your Paladin code (different DM's require different amounts of stain before a fall). However if you could have figured out a way to give the murderer a chance at redemption without risking the lives of others, then that would have been a better solution(no stain or disappointment). However your Paladin had not succeeded in figuring out such a better solution.

Geddy2112
2015-09-27, 01:00 PM
Absolutely not.

Your friend became a deranged murderhobo, and even then you tried to have them imprisoned instead of killed. You also lawfully executed a murderhobo, who was quite literally asking for it. You would have fallen if you did not stand up to this kind of stupid evil/chaotic stupid murderhobo nonsense. Yet even then, you tried to spare his life, and then bore the burden of having to end it. This is pretty freaking LG.

I don't think you need to leave the party-you did nothing wrong. It is a paladin thing to do, to stay and protect what is left of the village. Don't feel that you have to because of what you did, though.