Help me build a bard?

[Nishant]

So, just a day or two ago, I posted about have a balanced party... This has all been made moot by our DM. But it's not necessarily a bad thing. Our DM pointed out that we often create characters with similar roles, and do so talking together, and making sure we'll (Usually) have all our bases covered. I always play the fighter or barbarian, my other friend played the wizard, etc. And he's right. While there's nothing wrong with that, per se, he asked us to try and use other classes, new races, and experience a different aspect of the game. Seeing he had a point, we all agreed and we'll be picking the game up Saturday. He's been a good DM, its only fair we take up his request, and it will help us understand the game better.

So, I decided I'd like to play a Tiefling bard, but I have idea where to really start outside of 'High Cha, High Dex for AC.' So, I'll give you the stats I've rolled, and What I think I want to do, and we can figure it out from there? I should note that as per the DM's request, No one is telling each other what they are building.

So, I rolled these stats, have they havn't been distributed yet. 16, 15, 18, 14, 14, 14

The bard, from what I understand, does a lot of things fairly well. I like that valor bard gets the extra attack, even if I don't know whether or not I'll be in the front lines. I like blast-y spells, but I'd prefer to use spells like dissonant whispers, polymorph, suggestion, etc. Maybe I'll take lightning bolt or something with Magical Secrets... I have no idea. I was never good at magic classes. May have to take Raise Dead as well, as a precaution... but now I'm rambling.

So, any ideas? Suggestions?

[Madfellow]

If you're used to martial classes, then I would suggest taking Valor Bard. Other than that, my advice is to just wing it. Don't expend too much mental energy on your build; let it evolve naturally.

[Nishant]

Any suggestions on spells, at the start? I'm worried about picking a poor set and troubling the party later.

[bid]

Crazy rolls, with those you can Str14 Dex16 Con15 Int15 Wis14 Cha20. This leaves Valor/Lore open for level 3, time enough to see how the others are doing.
- maybe go Dex18/Cha18 to boost your AC and rapier.
- you want Con15 because resilient (Con) will even it out.
- the only feat that could go before those is Inspiring Leader: 9 temporary hp for every battle is nice.

Beside vicious mockery, you can pick minor illusion if you are creative or mage hand. Friends is useful for a quick con.

For level 1, check dissonant whispers, faerie fire, heroism, sleep, tasha's and thunderwave. Maybe cure wounds / healing word.

Level 2: enhance ability, hold person, invisibility, silence, suggestion.

[Nishant]

Crazy rolls, with those you can Str14 Dex16 Con15 Int15 Wis14 Cha20. This leaves Valor/Lore open for level 3, time enough to see how the others are doing.
- maybe go Dex18/Cha18 to boost your AC and rapier.
- you want Con15 because resilient (Con) will even it out.
- the only feat that could go before those is Inspiring Leader: 9 temporary hp for every battle is nice.

I rolled another 18 but I chopped it to balance myself. That does sound nice... What about War Caster? Is that any good?

[busterswd]

Eeeee, bard thread.

If you're starting at level 1, you don't have to worry about picking Lore or Valor until level 3.

18 in Cha, 16 in Dex, 15 in Con. Those are absolutely fantastic stats. If this is 18 pre racial bonus, you've capped Charisma by level 1. You can also multi class into whatever class you desire. If you end up being primary healer, dip life cleric and go Lore. Bless is a fantastic buff, and the +heal feature is very good. Dipping Cleric is also a solid AC bonus.


Cantrips:

Vicious Mockery: Amazing debuff, crap damage. It's representative of the bard class in general: you are strong at some unique things, just not damage.

Minor Illusion, or something similar for utility/flavor

Spells:
Sleep: Will steamroll some encounters for you early on. Be prepared to train out by level 3 or 4. No save! Don't be afraid to whip this out early in combat if it's obvious it's going to get dicey.

Healing Word: Bonus action, ranged "pick me up" for emergencies. You can primary heal with this if need be. Buy a healer's kit if that's the case.

Dissonant Whispers: If you're melee heavy, this is 3 free opportunity attacks in one spell and some respositioning. The drawback is the Wisdom save, which overlaps with a LOT of your spells.

#4 is a flex slot: Fairy Fire if you're not sure what you want (good debuff that doesn't target Wis), or pick something that adds to your utility. I like Detect Magic if my party doesn't have it.



You can easily go valor bard with those stats, since you have a beefy con, and you can dump some ASIs into feats. (Would strongly consider War caster if you go Valor, and Resilient (Con) either way by the time you hit 12.) Lucky and Alert are also good choices.

If you choose Lore, you get two spells of your choice at level 6 that help you specialize even further. Aura of Vitality is amazing for healing, Counterspell is really satisfying utility in general, Haste is good if you have a strong physical attacker, Conjure Animals is good for general battlefield control... or just pick a level 3 spell from one of your favorite classes.



I rolled another 18 but I chopped it to balance myself. That does sound nice... What about War Caster? Is that any good?

When you need to roll concentration, it's one of the strongest features you can have to support that. If your GM is out for your blood and hits you constantly, even in the back lines, you'll love having it. If your team keeps pressure off of you, it's not as good. It's still almost never a bad choice for a caster with good concentration spells. If you decide to go Valor, it's way more important.

[bid]

What about War Caster? Is that any good?
I've never seen it in use.

I think it becomes mandatory for battle magic if you go Valor. Resilient is better for Lore if you never use your OA.

[Nishant]

Thanks for the advice!

I suppose I should pick a background as well, but I suppose that more fits into story, right? I'll figure that out, myself.

[rgrekejin]

Another thing you may want to consider is multiclassing potential when you allocate your stats and picking your spells. Want to do a ton more damage? Multiclass to Warlock for two levels to pick up Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast, and Hex. Want to be an awesome healer? Take a single level of Cleric, and pick the Life domain. Take Lore Bard at level 3, and pick up Goodberry and Aura of Vitality for a ridiculous amount of healing potential early in the game. Also, that single level of Cleric gets you medium armor and shields (and heavy armor, if you pick the right domain), so you'll be a lot less squishy than a traditional Lore Bard. Lots of options, depending on what you want your character to be able to do.

[Nishant]

Another thing you may want to consider is multiclassing potential when you allocate your stats and picking your spells. Want to do a ton more damage? Multiclass to Warlock for two levels to pick up Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast, and Hex. Want to be an awesome healer? Take a single level of Cleric, and pick the Life domain. Take Lore Bard at level 3, and pick up Goodberry and Aura of Vitality for a ridiculous amount of healing potential early in the game. Also, that single level of Cleric gets you medium armor and shields (and heavy armor, if you pick the right domain), so you'll be a lot less squishy than a traditional Lore Bard. Lots of options, depending on what you want your character to be able to do.
thanks for the advice

[Captain Panda]

Killer stats. Have you decided between Lore and Valor yet?

My suggestion would be Lore, personally. One of the greatest features bards get, and in my opinion one of the best in the game, is the ability to steal the best spells from any other class, and Lore bards can do it earlier and more. Conjure animals is outright amazing, and if your DM makes the mistake of letting -you- pick what comes out, you can select poisonous snakes and just demolish whatever encounters he set up for that day. Though he probably won't make that mistake a second time. You can also take Aura of Vitality, an amazing paladin spell, and keep a swarm of summoned creatures (not yours, sadly, concentration and all) or your party healed on the cheap. Or maybe you like fireball? Who doesn't like fireball?

[rgrekejin]

Killer stats. Have you decided between Lore and Valor yet?

My suggestion would be Lore, personally. One of the greatest features bards get, and in my opinion one of the best in the game, is the ability to steal the best spells from any other class, and Lore bards can do it earlier and more. Conjure animals is outright amazing, and if your DM makes the mistake of letting -you- pick what comes out, you can select poisonous snakes and just demolish whatever encounters he set up for that day. Though he probably won't make that mistake a second time. You can also take Aura of Vitality, an amazing paladin spell, and keep a swarm of summoned creatures (not yours, sadly, concentration and all) or your party healed on the cheap. Or maybe you like fireball? Who doesn't like fireball?

Plus, a one-level dip into Cleric gets a Lore bard most of the really good bits of Valor bard anyway, at least at lower levels.

[Nifft]

IMHO, if you want to break yourself out of playing the melee guy, go full Lore Bard.

Not only is it really fun to play as a tactical genius via Vicious Mockery and Cutting Words, but you'll also get a good understanding of the strengths & weaknesses of every other class spell list as you pore over them to fill your Magical Secrets slots.

Valor Bard is great -- no mistake about it -- but so is Lore Bard, and it's such a different experience from a melee thug.

(Obviously if your party needs another melee thug then consider Valor.)

[Corey]

Plus, a one-level dip into Cleric gets a Lore bard most of the really good bits of Valor bard anyway, at least at lower levels.

Life Cleric dip has several advantages, including:

Armor.
Bless, which for some fights will be a better choice for the concentration slot than Faerie Fire.
The healing bonus ... and by Sage Advice, it does apply to each individual goodberry, should you later get that spell.
A decent damage-dealing cantrip, which reduces the temptation to spend a precious Magical Secrets slot on some other one (presumably Eldritch Blast, which is slightly better than alternatives).
More utility cantrips

[Nishant]

We're starting at level one, so I have some time to decide what I want to do. Any other suggestions for multiclassing? The consensus seems to be Life Cleric or Warlock. Is there any patron that's real good for the dip?

As a side note, I glanced through the spell list I have, and I came across 'animate objects.' Would it be a good combo with dissonant whispers? He could carry around stones or something, animate them, and have the enemy run through the animated objects, causing attacks of opportunity..

[busterswd]

Cleric: Just go one level. Consider making it your starting level if you want to muck around with heavy armor (at the cost of a skill known, and having a Wisdom save instead of Dex). Otherwise, I'd probably eye doing this for my 7th level.

Warlock: Go 2 early on, as the point of the dip is the cantrip and the synergy with low level healing spells. I'd consider Fey or Old One, both of which have some decent spells that will free up some bard spells known. Fey will give you an extra combat option in case you're in trouble, Old One gives you telepathy, which would be fun in social settings.

Either of the two multiclasses above would probably mesh better with Lore.


Dissonant Whispers does mesh nicely with Animate Objects. However, 5th level is going to be heavily contested for you, as that's where your 1st or second helping of Magical Secrets comes into play, plus other winners such as Hold Monster.

Remember: you don't HAVE to multiclass. You'll get access to better spells and bard features faster that way. The main drawback to not multiclassing is that the last 3 levels of bard add very little for you.

[bid]

I wouldn't suggest multiclassing unless you have a good handle on playing bard, but...

- Knowledge domain is the best for a skill monkey, and you have the stats to pull it out easy.
- Life is ok, but you are better with another half-healer.
- Light offers burning hands
- Tempest offers fog cloud
You should start bard and dip cleric to get a larger choice of spells. Lore gains medium armor and Valor gets longbow proficiency with Tempest/War. This way you can skip War Caster and use battle magic from afar.

[Nishant]

I may not multiclass. I dunno. I guess I'll decide if I feel the need. I still dont know what the others are playing.

[busterswd]

I may not multiclass. I dunno. I guess I'll decide if I feel the need. I still dont know what the others are playing.

Oh, as long as you're still playing with an unknown party, 100% start with bard. It's one of the perks of the class.

[Nishant]

Oh, as long as you're still playing with an unknown party, 100% start with bard. It's one of the perks of the class.

Yeah, as per DM's request. He's been good to us, so we trust him when he asks of stuff like this.

[Citan]

So, just a day or two ago, I posted about have a balanced party...

So, I decided I'd like to play a Tiefling bard, but I have idea where to really start outside of 'High Cha, High Dex for AC.'

So, I rolled these stats, have they havn't been distributed yet. 16, 15, 18, 14, 14, 14

So, any ideas? Suggestions?
Hi!!


Eeeee, bard thread.

If you're starting at level 1, you don't have to worry about picking Lore or Valor until level 3.

18 in Cha, 16 in Dex, 15 in Con. Those are absolutely fantastic stats. If this is 18 pre racial bonus, you've capped Charisma by level 1. You can also multi class into whatever class you desire. If you end up being primary healer, dip life cleric and go Lore. Bless is a fantastic buff, and the +heal feature is very good. Dipping Cleric is also a solid AC bonus.


Cantrips:

Vicious Mockery, Minor Illusion,

Spells:
Sleep, Healing Word, Dissonant Whispers

#4 is a flex slot: Fairy Fire if you're not sure what you want (good debuff that doesn't target Wis), or pick something that adds to your utility. I like Detect Magic if my party doesn't have it.

You can easily go valor bard with those stats, since you have a beefy con, and you can dump some ASIs into feats. (Would strongly consider War caster if you go Valor, and Resilient (Con) either way by the time you hit 12.) Lucky and Alert are also good choices.

If you choose Lore, you get two spells of your choice at level 6 that help you specialize even further. Aura of Vitality is amazing for healing, Counterspell is really satisfying utility in general, Haste is good if you have a strong physical attacker, Conjure Animals is good for general battlefield control... or just pick a level 3 spell from one of your favorite classes.


I agree with 100% of this post (sorry I scrubbed a few lines to keep the post quote decent, full post n°6 just above).

I'd just add as contenders for last lvl1 spell: Unseen Servant (can be used in many ways), Bane (can be a game-changer) or Comprehend Languages (only if you know your DM actually uses languages and culture mechanisms a lot).

I also second Nyft suggestion to go Lore Bard to really break out your habits. If you really want to play a martial on occasions, you have good enough stats to attack with DEX (or you can pick up Shillelagh) and go melee weapon with Haste to get 2 attacks as usual martials. ^^
For the same reason (really good DEX), I agree with Bid that Resilient is better for you. To make use of "Warcaster Opportunity Attack", it would require either to also get Crossbow Feat (no disadvantage) or use Magic Secrets to get a good melee attack spells (not many around here).
Resilient ups up 16 and get proficiency against all Constitution saves.
>>> Warcaster is be a better choice if you plan on going one-handed weapon + shield. Otherwise, Resilient is better.

As for multiclass...
Don't bother, for now anyways. I love multiclass and you can make great builds, but since you picked Bard to get a different feeling, why not play it through?

You'll have ample time to decide later anyways if you ever get bored with pure Bard (which is highly improbable imo. ^^).

[Nishant]

Hi!!


I agree with 100% of this post (sorry I scrubbed a few lines to keep the post quote decent, full post n°6 just above).

I'd just add as contenders for last lvl1 spell: Unseen Servant (can be used in many ways), Bane (can be a game-changer) or Comprehend Languages (only if you know your DM actually uses languages and culture mechanisms a lot).

I also second Nyft suggestion to go Lore Bard to really break out your habits. If you really want to play a martial on occasions, you have good enough stats to attack with DEX (or you can pick up Shillelagh) and go melee weapon with Haste to get 2 attacks as usual martials. ^^
For the same reason (really good DEX), I agree with Bid that Resilient is better for you. To make use of "Warcaster Opportunity Attack", it would require either to also get Crossbow Feat (no disadvantage) or use Magic Secrets to get a good melee attack spells (not many around here).
Resilient ups up 16 and get proficiency against all Constitution saves.
>>> Warcaster is be a better choice if you plan on going one-handed weapon + shield. Otherwise, Resilient is better.

As for multiclass...
Don't bother, for now anyways. I love multiclass and you can make great builds, but since you picked Bard to get a different feeling, why not play it through?

You'll have ample time to decide later anyways if you ever get bored with pure Bard (which is highly improbable imo. ^^).

since I'm starting with 20 cha, I may pick up shillelagh, and I'm wondering if I could use bigby's hand or telekinesis for some fun things. (I like the idea of using bigby's hand to grapple and throw a dragon back to the ground if it tries to fly away.) Additionally, I suppose this will depend more on how the campaign goes, but am I in a position to just take feats, rather than ASI?

[bid]

since I'm starting with 20 cha, I may pick up shillelagh,
Only if you go Valor because without extra attack...

[Citan]

since I'm starting with 20 cha, I may pick up shillelagh, and I'm wondering if I could use bigby's hand or telekinesis for some fun things. (I like the idea of using bigby's hand to grapple and throw a dragon back to the ground if it tries to fly away.) Additionally, I suppose this will depend more on how the campaign goes, but am I in a position to just take feats, rather than ASI?

Only if you go Valor because without extra attack...
I tend to agree.
Not that taking Shillelagh is bad in itself for a Lore Bard, since it provides a decent last-resort melee attack or can greatly improve the potency of some multiclass builds.

But for a pure Lore Bard with good Dex, I'd say it's a bit saddening to sacrifice a Magic Secret for that.
Also, while I was pointing out the fact that you could cast Haste to get two attacks, in most situations it will be better to cast it on your weapon-focused allies anyways (or cast Slow on enemies, but this is another topic) since they will always be better than you (optimized stats, feats, class abilities etc).

So I'd advise three choices.
1) Go Lore Bard, drop the idea of Shillelagh, keep a finesse weapon on your side and go wand and shield as a basis (don't remember if there are weapons that Bard can use as focus?). Melee will be avoided unless you really have no other options (like surrounded). Although, even then, a Thunderwave will probably be better.

2) Go Valor Bard, take Shillelagh... Although, you'll take it at level 10. Seems to me that, if you managed to contribute to the team up to this point, you may as well continue without Shillelagh.

3) You really want Shillelagh at some point AND you like the Warlock class in general. > Dip Warlock for Tome Pact, grab Shillelagh, Guidance and Thorn Whips cantrips.

I'd recommend option 1 in your case, for the explained reasons in this post and previous one. :)

EDIT : As for your question about feats, considering your (über) lucky rolls and race (16, 15, 18, 14, 14, 14 and +1 INT, +2 CHA) you'll so start with...
STR 14, DEX 16, CON 15, CHA 20, INT 15...
You may very well spend all on Feats, OR spend just one ASI upping DEX to 18 if you ever feel the need (my bet is you won't).
I'd go full Feats personally (so rare to have such good stats, and so many great Feats ^^).

Warcaster if you want to go Sword and Board on a regular basis (in which case you could also take Durable to get CON to 16 and always heal for at least 6 hp when you roll hit dice). Otherwise Resilient: Constitution is the best choice.

Inspiring Leader is also great with someone with max CHA, your partners will love you. ^^

Other feats... Take what you like, you'll be great whatever happens. :)

[bid]

1) Go Lore Bard, drop the idea of Shillelagh, keep a finesse weapon on your side and go wand and shield as a basis (don't remember if there are weapons that Bard can use as focus?). Melee will be avoided unless you really have no other options (like surrounded). Although, even then, a Thunderwave will probably be better.

2) Go Valor Bard, take Shillelagh... Although, you'll take it at level 10. Seems to me that, if you managed to contribute to the team up to this point, you may as well continue without Shillelagh.

3) You really want Shillelagh at some point AND you like the Warlock class in general. > Dip Warlock for Tome Pact, grab Shillelagh, Guidance and Thorn Whips cantrips.

No shield proficiency. And if you really want shillelagh shield and medium armor, Nature Cleric is the quickest dip with those scores.

[Nifft]

Agree about skipping Shillelagh: it's a fine cantrip if you only have one good stat, but that's not your character. You can handle a Dex weapon if you need to be in melee for a little while. (Hopefully you don't need to be in melee much.)

Unsure about Charisma 20. That makes it impossible to benefit from Actor (which comes with +1 Charisma). Not a huge issue, but Actor is a really fun feat, and if you were planning to take it then maybe start with 18 Charisma instead.

[Nishant]

Alright. Scrapping shillelagh, and actually talked to a DM about possibly making a 'singing' weapon enchantment, even if I didn't go that route. Basically a weapon that resounds and acts a focus for bardic spellcasting (A tuning fork I guess?)

Also, onto more developed stuff.

Thusfar, the set up is as follows.

Throne Cambell
Lv.1 Teifling Bard

14 str, 16 dex, 15 con, 15 int, 14 wis, 20 cha

Class Proficencies; Acrobatics, Performance, Persuasion
Background; Charlatan

cantrips; Thaumaturgy, Minor illusion & vicious mockery

1st level; Dissonant whispers, Healing Word, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, and Sleep

Non mechanic stuff;
is a born gambler, and cheats at games of chance
Mentor is a criminal, and hasn't seen her in years (Plot point?)
Can't resist a pretty face

anything I should add or change? Any neat story ideas anyone has had with their bard or teifling?

[Nifft]

Looks great.

Don't forget Tieflings get the Thaumaturgy cantrip.

If you take the Warcaster feat, you won't need any special weapon to cast and stab.

You've got a 20 Charisma, so you'll never take Actor, which is a bit of a shame since you've got Deception trained, but you'll survive without it just fine.

[Nishant]

Looks great.

Don't forget Tieflings get the Thaumaturgy cantrip.

If you take the Warcaster feat, you won't need any special weapon to cast and stab.

You've got a 20 Charisma, so you'll never take Actor, which is a bit of a shame since you've got Deception trained, but you'll survive without it just fine.

right, I'll edit that in. I may take actor regardless. Just depends on what happens. This is a more role play centered group, and with the stats I rolled, I can afford to take a hit or two.

[Nifft]

right, I'll edit that in. I may take actor regardless. Just depends on what happens. This is a more role play centered group, and with the stats I rolled, I can afford to take a hit or two.

You can, of course, do exactly as you like. You'll be fine either way.

If it were me, though, I'd drop my starting Charisma to 18 (after racial bonus), and put my rolled 18 in Dexterity or Constitution. Actor at 4th, ASI (+1 Cha, +1 something else) at 8th, and then more Con & Dex or more feats.

[busterswd]

You can, of course, do exactly as you like. You'll be fine either way.

If it were me, though, I'd drop my starting Charisma to 18 (after racial bonus), and put my rolled 18 in Dexterity or Constitution. Actor at 4th, ASI (+1 Cha, +1 something else) at 8th, and then more Con & Dex or more feats.
`
The combat oriented min maxer in me screams at this (20 Charisma generally gives you a ~15 to 20% improvement making people fail their saves early on), but if you go this route, Resilient: Con is a perfect fit. Also, you're right (@OP); you could literally add 0 to stats as you level and you'd be fine for the rest of the game.

Character seems fine. Don't forget you can retrain a spell every level, and that magical secret spells generally can't be retrained to other magical secrets if you go RAW (if you can, they become way more fun).

Your next job, flavorwise: you're going to be using a LOT of insults (and possibly compliments, when you use bardic inspiration). Start thinking of or writing out some that reflect your character, if you choose to go the route of using custom insults instead of just declaring "Vicious Mockery" or "Cutting Words".

Instrument choice can matter if/when magical ones drop. Look at the DMG and see if you care about the bard instruments (they're actually all pretty powerful).



In terms of storylines:
-Bards can be reflavored as debonair, world traveled spies pretty easily.
-Bards are inherently comical characters; like Elan says, you literally sing at things for combat bonuses. You're not obligated to be funny, but it's an easy class to get in jokes with, either verbal or conceptual
-Bards are also stereotypically storytellers: if you're combining it with charlatan, you'll have a penchant for telling long, ever more unbelievable tales of things that have happened to you.
-You're also really, really pretty. That may have altered or warped your world view.
-My most recent bard's storyline: Drow Bard who is a little mentally... different, and doesn't quite understand the concept of anger; thus, while people hold terrible grudges and live out vengeful filled lives in the Underdark, he's just baffled at why people don't get along. His goal is to bring music, light, and laughter to the Underdark. He is completely unaware he is doomed to fail, and that's just fine. Also, his instrumental proficiencies are in exotic instruments and entirely assumed at this point, especially because he has 0 ranks in perform; people may be surprised to learn he can actually make music.

[Citan]

No shield proficiency. And if you really want shillelagh shield and medium armor, Nature Cleric is the quickest dip with those scores.
You're right, forgot that bit about no shield proficiency.
However, Nature Cleric would be as useless, since you would have to use Shillelagh with WIS (14). So no interest.
Better go Life Cleric 1 (for better healing), Fighter 1-2 (Fighting Style, Action Surge) or Paladin 2 (Fighting Style, Smite) to get shield proficiency.

[Yagyujubei]

does he allow MC and the use of UA? if so then lore bard (12) + swashbuckler rogue (8) is a crazy fun class to play.

super evasive and mobile, top notch skill monkey, can do dmg in melee and at range....there's so much to love here.