Player Build: Can We Go Supersonic?

[Glue Styx]

Some backstory: A couple years back I was playing a third edition game with a handful of buddies at school. I was always really into building and rebuilding different characters just for fun. Infrequently I looked around Giantitp to see what the pro's were doing, and (as I'm sure you know), it was some pretty broken stuff. One day I came up with an idea, what if a character could be built to exceed the speed of sound? It would be pretty simple, wouldn't it? Assuming they only have to do it in a single round (six seconds), it couldn't be that hard. I pulled out my 3 and 3.5 stuff and took a whack at it.

I, however, never had the skills nor knowledge to make this happen. So now I present it to you, the geniuses of the interwebs, the challenge to make a supersonic character.

Some math stuff:

Speed of Sound: 1,127 ft/s (343.59 m/s)

Speed of Sound (per round): 6762 ft/6 seconds (2061.0576 m/6 seconds)

Squares per Round (just in case): 1352.4 squares/6 seconds

That's about it. One last note, as I'm sure you can tell, I'm something of a n00b, so if I've made a fatal error somewhere please refrain from roasting me. Now go at it!

[OldTrees1]

Mercury dragon, wyrmling: 3RHD, +2LA, for Fly 200ft(40 squares)
Shadow Creature: +2LA for +50%
Run feat: *5 during Run action
40*1.5*5=300 closer but still short by a factor of roughly 4.5

Blade Dancer 10 [OA] can triple our speed (presuming the table is extended) although it does not explicitly call out Fly speeds.

Cheetah's Speed feat grants a *10 Charge(up from *2) 1/hour (incompatible with Run feat).

Mercury dragon, wyrmling: 3RHD, +2LA, for Fly 200ft(40 squares)
Shadow Creature: +2LA for +50%
Blade Dancer 10 [OA]: *3
Wildshape Ranger 5 + Cheetah's Speed feat: *10 during a Charge 1/day
40*1.5*3*10=1800 squares per that round
However this ends up as an ECL 22 (+4 LA, 3RHD/Ranger 5/Blade Dancer 10)

Edit:
Mercury dragon, wyrmling: 3RHD, +2LA, for Fly 200ft(40 squares)
Shadow Creature: +2LA for +50%
Blade Dancer 10 [OA]: *3
Run Feat: *5 during a Run
Belt of Battle: *2 Runs 1/day
40*1.5*3*5*2=1800 squares per that round
Now it is an ECL 21 (+4LA, 17HD)

Item worth noting:
Feathered Wings[FF]: Fly speed = 2* Land Speed (pales in comparison to Mercury Dragon)
Rapid Wrath[Ghostwalk]: *2 speed (could be used to cut Blade Dancer out to drop the ECL dramatically)

Edit:
I only used multiplicative boosts. Obviously there are some additive boosts(like Haste) that would apply.

[Glue Styx]

Edit:
Mercury dragon, wyrmling: 3RHD, +2LA, for Fly 200ft(40 squares)
Shadow Creature: +2LA for +50%
Blade Dancer 10 [OA]: *3
Run Feat: *5 during a Run
Belt of Battle: *2 Runs 1/day
40*1.5*3*5*2=1800 squares per that round
Now it is an ECL 21 (+4LA, 17HD)

Edit:
I only used multiplicative boosts. Obviously there are some additive boosts(like Haste) that would apply.

Wow <whistles> that was faster than I could have imagined. Both in speed of reply, and in actual results. Now we just need to decide what sort of damage a sonic boom would do :smallbiggrin:

[OldTrees1]

Let's drop that ECL! (trading the x3 from Blade Dancer 10 in for the x2 from the carried spear)


Mercury dragon, wyrmling: 3RHD, +2LA, for Fly 200ft(40 squares)

Shadow Creature: +2LA for +50%
Run Feat: *5 during a Run
Belt of Battle: *2 Runs 1/day
Rapid Wrath[Ghostwalk]: *2 speed when carried
Total multiplier: *30

Since RoundUp(1352.4/30)=46 and we start with 40, we need merely a +30ft bonus to speed.

Mercury dragon, wyrmling: 3RHD, +2LA, for Fly 200ft(40 squares)
Air Heritage feat: +30ft to racial flight(230ft, 46 squares)
Shadow Creature: +2LA for +50%(345ft, 69 squares)
Rapid Wrath[Ghostwalk]: *2 speed when carried(690ft, 138 squares)
Run Feat: *5 during a Run(1380ft, 690 squares)
Belt of Battle: *2 Runs 1/day(6900ft, 1380 squares)
ECL 7(3RHD, +4LA) but WBL of 7-8th level (although a 25% WBL cap per item would mean 10th level WBL)

[Jowgen]

Alright, I am so getting in on this; and certainly want to avoid using the Mercury Dragon.

A flying creature descending intentionally only has to expend 1 square of movement per 2 squares descended. In short, going down the whole way doubles your speed.

Second, as an alternative to the feathered wings graft, the Half-Fey Template gives a fly speed up to double the base creature's "fastest mode of movement". There are probably ways to get a swim/climb speed greater than you land-speed, although the only one I know is the Swiftness Draconic aura . On the other hand, adding Shadow creature onto this for a +4 LA might not be too good, so I'll leave this out.

I'll work backwards from the goal:

6762 ft / 2 for going downwards = 3.381 ft

3.381 ft / 2 from Rapid Wrath doubling = 1690.5 ft

1690.5 ft / 5 from Run feat = 338.1 ft

338.1 ft / 1.5 from Shadow Creature template = 225.4 ft

225.4 ft - 30 ft from Haste (its fly-speed enhancement bonus) = 195.4

195.4 ft / 2 from Fly Speed at double land speed = 97.7 ft

97.7 ft - 30 from Haste (Land-speed enhancement bonus) = 67.7 ft

So based on this, the goal is a land-speed of 70, not including an enhancement bonus.

Easiest option that comes to mind? One level of Barbarian for the untyped +10 speed on a Varag (MMIV) for it racial 60 base.

So a Shadow Varag (LA +4, 3 RHD) with one level of Barbarian (ECL 8) under the effect of Haste with a Feathered Wings Graft, carrying a Rapid Wrath spear can break Mach 1 when it takes the Run action and flies straight down from about 7000 ft in the air. It's exact speed would be:

[(60 +10 + 30) x 2 + 30] x 1.5 x 5 x 2 x 2 = 6900 ft

That's 1150 ft/second, which exceeds the 1116.43701 ft/second that sound moves at.

This relies on Haste multiplying the way I've written, but it doesn't involve any shenanigans such as trying to apply the Rapid Wrath's doubling to all speeds separately. Also, as a bonus, we have the world's fastest goblinoid. :smalltongue:

Things that weren't used but could be: Belt of Battle as mentioned above, Chronocharm of the Horizon walker, Untyped speed enhancement items, Draconic Aura of Swiftness (could combo with half-fey by increasing Swim, Climb & Burrow), the Cheetah's speed option mentioned above, Air Heritage (would work with Half-Fey)... there is sure to be more.

[Darrin]

In Iron Chef LIX (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?364667), my Zahnik Boohm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17943699&postcount=115) build can break Mach 2 on foot. There's also a Swanmay variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18076139&postcount=300) that uses Roof-Walker to drop on your opponent from above... only Mach 1.48, but does 449d6 damage (1571 average) on the downstroke.

Recently I've been fiddling around with reworking the build so it's a little more functional by using Geomancer 9's "move like a cheetah" ability (Drift 5), but it hasn't quite come together yet.

[Glue Styx]

This is some amazing stuff. How fast can we go, I wonder? <looks off into middle distance> Could time travel be possible? Yeah, no. But seriously, I'm loving what I'm seeing.

Just a physics note. For those of you using descent rules to double flight speed, you're actually doing a little bit more.

Assuming this character is only moving on a two dimensional plane (y-axis = height, x-axis = distance from start) we can use vectors to determine how the character's relative speed.

Since for every "square" down you move (5 feet) you move two squares (10 feet) over, we put 1 (5ft) on the vertical vector, and 2 (10ft) on the horizontal.

```| . \
1``| . . \
(5ft)| . . . \
```| . . . . \ S (unknown speed)
```| . . . .. .\
```| . . . . . .\
```v ----------->
``````2 (10 ft)

Then, using Pythag. (a^2+b^2=c^2) we know that the actual speed is . . .

Squares: sqrt(5), or about 2.236 squares
or
Feet: sqrt(125), or about 11.180 feet

Haven't run that through the flying calculations, but that ups our top speed.

[AvatarVecna]

There used to be a build (Chuck E. Cheese, IIRC) that, until Wizards errata'd the base spell, could reach somewhere in the millions. Of course, that build was only possible because of this spell that you could end early for a speed boost (+10 ft per round left in the spell's duration); because you could dismiss the spell, and it wasn't officially marked as Dismissable, it could be persisted, extended...and then canceled for +288000 to your speed...before running, and all that other nonsense. Of course, then Wizards saw stuff like that, said "yeah, it was supposed to be officially Dismissable", and the build became illegal, but at one point, it was legal, and it was awesome. I think somebody figured out how to turn speed into damage and gave cheesed out Hulking Hurlers a run for their money.

[Glue Styx]

I think somebody figured out how to turn speed into damage and gave cheesed out Hulking Hurlers a run for their money.

Do you remember how they did that? It would really add some value to what's getting done here.

[Deophaun]

One day I came up with an idea, what if a character could be built to exceed the speed of sound?

Any character can exceed the speed of sound if they have an ally one size category larger with the Fling Ally feat. They also exceed the speed of light. But, this is an arcane consequence of the attack rules, not a function of the distance traveled.

[AvatarVecna]

Do you remember how they did that? It would really add some value to what's getting done here.

I think it's from some ToB maneuver that lets you attack people when you run past them or something. Screw it, here's the build (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1164211); Chuck E. Cheese can (pre-errata) break c. I'm gonna see if I can figure out how their damage is getting up that high.

EDIt: Found it: it's Tornado Throw. Basically, the maneuver is "move up to foe, throw them, move up to them again, throw them again, etc" until you either run out of movement for the round or fail to throw them; this assumes that, if you run past them, you can't turn around and run back to throw them again; if instead, you just circle the globe to throw them again, you can throw them again. Oh and BTW, for every 5ft you move prior to a throw, you gain a +2 to the check...and for every 5 points you beat them on the opposed check, the further you throw them and the more damage you deal to them.

As you can see from that page, it gets ridiculous when your running speed is faster than c.

[Vhaidara]

We should save that thread since WotC is deleting their forums

[Jowgen]

I'mma have a crack at going the Half-fey route. In this, I want to avoid using Shadow creature, any grafts and any class levels. The idea is to take advantage of Half-fey's "fastest movement mode" clause to get more benefit multiplication.

I'll start with a Half-Fey Nezumi (OA, any race with land min 40 would do) with the Quick trait for a base land of 50, and flight at twice fastest movement mode.

I give it finned gauntlets (MIC) for a swim speed equal to land, and the Water Heritage feat for an extra 20 ft, giving it Swim 70. Flight is up to 140.

Next, I have it go Dragonborn (any other source of Dragonblood would do tbh) and have it take the draconic aura feat for swiftness aura for +5 to all speeds (goes up with more HD). This makes land 55, swim 80, and Fly 160.

I buy it a pair of Shadahkar's Swift Wind sandals (Dragon 324 75) for untyped +10 to base speed (apply once), as well as endurance and run. This makes L 65, S 90 and F 185.

Now we get to spells, all of which will be cast by a Paragnostic Apostle who took the Spatial Awareness feature. First, wings of the sea for a + 40 untyped to swim, making our array L 65, S 130, F 265. Second, we get haste, which now applies 40 to each one, so: L 105, S 200, F 445.

Now, we apply the doubling from rapid wrath to Fly for 890 ft.

If we run at this speed, we get to 4450 ft. Using the doubling from descending, we get 8900 ft.


Expenditure: 2 feats, -1 HP/level, -4 dex, 2 LA, 22000-ish GP, 2 spells cast by specific PrC caster


EDIT: Note, Dragonborn or any source of Dragonblood isn't actually needed for this, it just makes it so that if the character hits 7/14/20 HD, the aura bonus increases by 5/10/15; potentially allowing more speed in the long-run.

[Glue Styx]

Turns out the SRD has other ideas about flight.

Down Speed
A flying creature can fly down at twice its normal flying speed.

Okay, so this screws with my mathematics. But we just found another issue with RAW. The Down Speed is the speed that the creature goes when flying at it's "Down Angle". But the Down Angle can, at maneuverabilities above poor, be a straight dive. So descending gives the creature just a flat x2 bonus to speed? Or is it meant to only apply to speed relative to the ground? If it's the latter, then we just cracked open a whole new can of math to fiddle with, but I'm not sure. Can anyone clear this out before my mind breaks?

Here's the srd's movement section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm).

[Jowgen]

Turns out the SRD has other ideas about flight.

Down Speed
A flying creature can fly down at twice its normal flying speed.

Okay, so this screws with my mathematics. But we just found another issue with RAW. The Down Speed is the speed that the creature goes when flying at it's "Down Angle". But the Down Angle can, at maneuverabilities above poor, be a straight dive. So descending gives the creature just a flat x2 bonus to speed? Or is it meant to only apply to speed relative to the ground? If it's the latter, then we just cracked open a whole new can of math to fiddle with, but I'm not sure. Can anyone clear this out before my mind breaks?

Here's the srd's movement section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm).

Skip puts it quite eloquently here: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040629a

[ShurikVch]

1. Tauric centipede
2. Graft on fiendish Fast Legs
3. Half-Fey for x2 Fly speed

There used to be a build (Chuck E. Cheese, IIRC) that, until Wizards errata'd the base spell, could reach somewhere in the millions. Of course, that build was only possible because of this spell that you could end early for a speed boost (+10 ft per round left in the spell's duration); because you could dismiss the spell, and it wasn't officially marked as Dismissable, it could be persisted, extended...and then canceled for +288000 to your speed...before running, and all that other nonsense. Of course, then Wizards saw stuff like that, said "yeah, it was supposed to be officially Dismissable", and the build became illegal, but at one point, it was legal, and it was awesome. I think somebody figured out how to turn speed into damage and gave cheesed out Hulking Hurlers a run for their money.Actually, it's still usable, just nowhere that awesome as before.
(And it's "Dischargeable", not "Dismissable" - Dismissable can be persisted)
Circle Magic FotD up to CL 40, GCF to 60, Extend up to 120 turns, discharge = +1250'

[AvatarVecna]

If we're using caster level shenanigans, we can bust out hiveminds and Reserves of Strength'd Consumptive Fields. A beekeeper farm contains about 1.5 million bees (150 swarms); nuke it from point blank range (make sure to buff/ward yourself first), and add their body count to your Caster Level. That should get you some good speed.

[Glue Styx]

Down Speed:Any flying creature can fly down at twice its normal flying speed. An easy way to track diving movement is to allow it 5 feet of bonus movement for every 5 feet it descends, to a maximum of twice its normal flying speed. The creature can use the extra movement for any kind flying movement it normally could perform, except for hovering.

Downward movement in a stall or freefall does not increase a creature's speed. Instead, the creature falls straight down at a fixed rate.

So is the idea meant to make downward movement free? So no energy is spent in descent, only in the forward movement?

[ShurikVch]

If we're using caster level shenanigans, we can bust out hiveminds and Reserves of Strength'd Consumptive Fields. A beekeeper farm contains about 1.5 million bees (150 swarms); nuke it from point blank range (make sure to buff/ward yourself first), and add their body count to your Caster Level. That should get you some good speed.1) I think it will be kinda difficult to destroy all 150 swarms at once
2) Why bother? Just use Reserves of Strength with Footsteps of the Divine - one full day of being stunned give you 14400 turns to work with, thus about +28850'

[Jowgen]

So is the idea meant to make downward movement free? So no energy is spent in descent, only in the forward movement?

Nah, it's simply x2 like you originally inferred. The "fixed rate" refers to how fast a creature can fall when it stalls or intentionally stops flying: 150 ft on first round, 300 ft from second round onwards. I think there used to be a rule where it was 500 and then 1000 for non-flyers, but that's been scrapped for 3.5e (at least I've never seen it outside the articles). Part 5 of the all about movement series also talks about "fast free-falls", but I don't think they're RAW, and even if, can't be combined with the run action by the looks of it.

I suppose one could argue that a creature could full round run all the way down and then freefall for an extra 150 ft movement, but that is questionable and not really all that useful for the current project.

[AvatarVecna]

1) I think it will be kinda difficult to destroy all 150 swarms at once
2) Why bother? Just use Reserves of Strength with Footsteps of the Divine - one full day of being stunned give you 14400 turns to work with, thus about +28850'

1) We're already pulling out RoS'd GCF shenanigans, stacking metamagic abuse onto blasting spells shouldn't be that difficult. Hell, a single Apocalypse from the Sky could probably do the job even without metamagic, although there's other issues if you go that route. Furthermore, Greater Consumptive Field doesn't require that we kill them all at once, just that we kill them while the spell is active...and GCF can be Persisted.

2) Reserves of Strength doesn't do anything to Footsteps of the Divine, at least not to that level. RoS gives you +3 to Caster Level and removes Caster Level limits, in exchange for stunning you for three rounds/dealing nonlethal damage. Since you still only have a normal caster level, RoS doesn't make the spell last all day, just 3 rounds longer. The reason we use RoS on GCF is that it increases your CL by 1 for every creature whose life the spell absorbs on your behalf, up to 1.5 times your normal CL; RoS removes that limit, letting us increase our CL infinitely, assuming we kill enough stuff.

[ShurikVch]

1) We're already pulling out RoS'd GCF shenanigans, stacking metamagic abuse onto blasting spells shouldn't be that difficult. Hell, a single Apocalypse from the Sky could probably do the job even without metamagic, although there's other issues if you go that route. Furthermore, Greater Consumptive Field doesn't require that we kill them all at once, just that we kill them while the spell is active...and GCF can be Persisted.1) How much place take those 150 swarms, and which spell can kill them at once?
2) Apocalypse from the Sky take a lot of time to cast, and need artefact
3) No, actually, it does require that we kill them all at once. GCF doesn't stack; every new kill not add to your CL, but reset it - for better or worse


2) Reserves of Strength doesn't do anything to Footsteps of the Divine, at least not to that level. RoS gives you +3 to Caster Level and removes Caster Level limits, in exchange for stunning you for three rounds/dealing nonlethal damage. Since you still only have a normal caster level, RoS doesn't make the spell last all day, just 3 rounds longer. The reason we use RoS on GCF is that it increases your CL by 1 for every creature whose life the spell absorbs on your behalf, up to 1.5 times your normal CL; RoS removes that limit, letting us increase our CL infinitely, assuming we kill enough stuff.Ah, I see...
Sorry! :smalleek:
I initially misread it

[AvatarVecna]

1) How much place take those 150 swarms, and which spell can kill them at once?
2) Apocalypse from the Sky take a lot of time to cast, and need artefact
3) No, actually, it does require that we kill them all at once. GCF doesn't stack; every new kill not add to your CL, but reset it - for better or worse

The relevant part of the spell says "All creatures in the area with fewer than 0 hit points that fail their saving throws die, and you gain 1d8 temporary hit points per death caused by this spell and +2 Strength until the spell's duration expires. Additionally, your effective caster level goes up by 1 per death caused by this spell, to a maximum of 1/2 your original caster level, improving spell effects that are dependent on caster level." The emanation caused by the spell lasts for the spell's whole duration, and the caster level increase isn't a bonus, but an actual change in caster level, otherwise it would be labelled as a bonus of some kind; if it was labelled an untyped bonus, I'd agree with you, but it doesn't, so later deaths also change your caster level.

But let's assume you're right. How could we kill 150 swarms? Well, swarms are unique in that they can share their space with other creatures, including other swarms. However, any creature a swarm is sharing its space with takes swarm damage, which swarms aren't immune to. So the one spell that can take out 150 swarms while keeping them all within the area of Greater Consumptive Field? Sympathy. That object right over there is attracting bees, and all the bee swarms fly over to it and kill each other by invading the other swarms' personal space. Well, maybe. Sympathy's effect is kind of...vague on what area the creatures have to be in to be affected, and it's unlikely that it refers to all creatures everywhere of that particular kind of creature. So let's find something else!

How about Meteor Swarm? According to the 3.5 Fiend Folio pg 172, a Wasp Swarm has 22 hp and Reflex +4; Wasp Swarm is close enough to Bee Swarm to use as an equivalent. Each of the four meteors should be able to target 44 swarms, assuming they're evenly spread on the map without invading each other's spaces; I believe that should be sufficient to target every swarm. Pop a charge from a Greater Rod of Metamagic (Widen). That makes each of the four target 144 swarms (possibly more), which means you can basically layer them all on top of each other. The odds of any individual swarm surviving is...low, to put it lightly.

There's probably a better spell/metamagic combo than Widen Spell (well-known as terrible) and Meteor Swarm (a terrible blasting spell, and blasting is terrible anyway). But that's assuming you have to kill them all at once...which you don't, because the spell indicates the change in caster level as an actual change, rather than a bonus of any kind.

EDIT: Also, since artifacts don't have a cost, there's certain...people who insist that, by RAW, they're included in a spell component pouch (since they're a material component with no cost), but I think that's pedantic bull****, so I'm not going to make that argument. Still, if you're this powerful of a caster, I doubt getting ahold of an artifact will be that difficult, but I digress.

[ShurikVch]

The emanation caused by the spell lasts for the spell's whole duration, and the caster level increase isn't a bonus, but an actual change in caster level, otherwise it would be labelled as a bonus of some kind; if it was labelled an untyped bonus, I'd agree with you, but it doesn't, so later deaths also change your caster level.If such thing was possible at all, then why not just to use a wand of Death Knell?
Sympathy.Vermins are Immune to [Mind-Affecting]
and blasting is terrible anywayMailman disagree...
EDIT: Also, since artifacts don't have a cost, there's certain...people who insist that, by RAW, they're included in a spell component pouch (since they're a material component with no cost), but I think that's pedantic bull****, so I'm not going to make that argument. Still, if you're this powerful of a caster, I doubt getting ahold of an artifact will be that difficult, but I digress.Another pressing problem for the AftS is a "Casting Time: 1 day". Bees will go to sleep, thus got a cover against AftS

Also, GCF limited
to a maximum of 1/2 your original caster levelEven with Reserves of Strength it will be what?
33 (assuming pre-[Epic])?
Circle Magic gives you flat 40.

And if it still not enough, get a Vermin Lord and use Hivemind, which maximal CL limited only by Rule 0.
For example, aforementioned Bee Farm will net CL about of 29989

[AvatarVecna]

If such thing was possible at all, then why not just to use a wand of Death Knell?

Vermins are Immune to [Mind-Affecting]

Another pressing problem for the AftS is a "Casting Time: 1 day". Bees will go to sleep, thus got a cover against AftS

Also, GCF limited

Even with Reserves of Strength it will be what?
33 (assuming pre-[Epic])?
Circle Magic gives you flat 40.

And if it still not enough, get a Vermin Lord and use Hivemind, which maximal CL limited only by Rule 0.
For example, aforementioned Bee Farm will net CL about of 29989

Fair enough about Vermin, I forgot about that. But last I checked, being asleep meant you auto-failed saves, and I don't think it grants cover.

Reserves of Strength grants a +3 to Caster Level for casting that spell...but it also removes any limits the spell has on maximum applicable caster level. In the case of Greater Consumptive Field, it removes the limit on how much Caster Level you gain from killing things with GCF. That's why we use it.

And you're lecturing the wrong person on what kind of shenanigans a Vermin Lord beekeeper can get up to. *points at signature*

EDIT:

Also, about Death Knell: it targets a single creature. You could do that...if you're willing to touch each individual creature. 10000 bees have a single stat block, but there's still 10000 of them, and using Death Knell, you have to touch each one. It's easier to use the area effect.

EDIT 2:

Blasting is more effective than non-magic combat, but using magic to deal HP damage is directly worse than stacking on debuffs. It's not "terrible" per say, but it's worse than other kinds of magic combat.

[Jowgen]

But last I checked, being asleep meant you auto-failed saves, and I don't think it grants cover.

You're thinking Unconscious. It is Unconscious creatures that are always considered willing, which depending on your reading means they auto-fail saves. Here, have a whole discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426681-Unconscious-Willing-Choosing-to-fail-a-save-rules-and-opinions) I started (and would like to think won; but really, who ever "wins" one these things?) on the topic.

[AvatarVecna]

You're thinking Unconscious. It is Unconscious creatures that are always considered willing, which depending on your reading means they auto-fail saves. Here, have a whole discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426681-Unconscious-Willing-Choosing-to-fail-a-save-rules-and-opinions) I started (and would like to think won; but really, who ever "wins" one these things?) on the topic.

Yeah, I remembered it being a bit of a mechanical mess. Regardless of whether you auto-fail or not, you definitely don't auto-succeed (which is what the person I was responding to seemed to be implying).

[ShurikVch]

Fair enough about Vermin, I forgot about that. But last I checked, being asleep meant you auto-failed savesSRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm):
Sleeping creatures are helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless).Being helpless don't make you auto-fail saves
and I don't think it grants cover.But beehouse grants...

Reserves of Strength grants a +3 to Caster Level for casting that spell...but it also removes any limits the spell has on maximum applicable caster level. In the case of Greater Consumptive Field, it removes the limit on how much Caster Level you gain from killing things with GCF.And where exactly it says so?
Also, specific thrums general: GCF says "no more than +50%", so I doubt there is any way around it

EDIT:

Also, about Death Knell: it targets a single creature. You could do that...if you're willing to touch each individual creature. 10000 bees have a single stat block, but there's still 10000 of them, and using Death Knell, you have to touch each one. It's easier to use the area effect.Generally, effects from the same spell don't stack, and GCF don't provide exception to the rule

[AvatarVecna]

But beehouse grants...

And where exactly it says so?

Also, specific thrums general: GCF says "no more than +50%", so I doubt there is any way around it

Generally, effects from the same spell don't stack, and GCF don't provide exception to the rule

No, that's how the spell generally works. Some things (like certain feats) can alter how the spell generally works, making the spell work differently. Unless you're arguing that metamagic doesn't do anything, because it's a general rule that gets overridden by the specific nature of the spell.

Here's the exact text for Reserves of Strength:


When you cast a spell, you can decide to increase your caster level with that spell by 1, 2, or 3, but you are stunned for an equal number of rounds immediately after doing so. Your increased caster level affects all level-based variables of the spell, including range, area of effect, spell penetration, and the difficulty of dispelling the spell. You can exceed the normal level-fixed limits of a spell with this feat, so a 9th-level wizard could use Reserves of Strength to cast a Fireball as a 12th-level wizard and deal 12d6 fire damage.
If you are not subject to stunning effects, you instead suffer 1d6, 3d6, or 5d6 points of damage when you call upon your Reserves of Strength feat.

The bolded part is what I'm talking about; if you use Reserves of Strength to alter a spell, it removes that spell's Caster Level limits. The underlined portion gives a specific example: normally, Fireball deals 1d6 per Caster Level, to a maximum of 10d6, but Reserves of Strength specifically lets you bypass that limit. Greater Consumptive Field generally limits the maximum Caster Level increase to half your original Caster Level; if you use Reserves of Strength with Greater Consumptive Field, it removes that limit, allowing you to increase your Caster Level.

You seem to be confused about how the stacking rules work: stacking is about bonuses of the same type (or if the bonus is untyped, then of the same source). Neither of these spells give a bonus; they're actually increasing your Caster Level for the duration of the spell. It's not a bonus, so it can stack. That's how the stacking rules work.

[Glue Styx]

Nah, it's simply x2 like you originally inferred.

But is it a x2 to speed relative to the ground, or is the creature itself moving 2x as fast? I'm probably overthinking this, but I suppose here is the place to do it.

[ShurikVch]

The bolded part is what I'm talking about; if you use Reserves of Strength to alter a spell, it removes that spell's Caster Level limits. The underlined portion gives a specific example: normally, Fireball deals 1d6 per Caster Level, to a maximum of 10d6, but Reserves of Strength specifically lets you bypass that limit. Greater Consumptive Field generally limits the maximum Caster Level increase to half your original Caster Level; if you use Reserves of Strength with Greater Consumptive Field, it removes that limit, allowing you to increase your Caster Level."Generally"... or "specifically"?
Who will decide which is more specific?
And yes, Reserves of Strength allow to exceed the normal level-fixed limits... for 1, 2, or 3 - nothing more

You seem to be confused about how the stacking rules work: stacking is about bonuses of the same type (or if the bonus is untyped, then of the same source). Neither of these spells give a bonus; they're actually increasing your Caster Level for the duration of the spell. It's not a bonus, so it can stack. That's how the stacking rules work.Depend on how you look at it...
Shape-changing spell just give you another form, which can grant you a different size, yet people say something about the size bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases)...

[AvatarVecna]

"Generally"... or "specifically"?
Who will decide which is more specific?

And yes, Reserves of Strength allow to exceed the normal level-fixed limits... for 1, 2, or 3 - nothing more

Depend on how you look at it...

Shape-changing spell just give you another form, which can grant you a different size, yet people say something about the size bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases)...

1) Reserves of Strength is considered more specific than Greater Consumptive Field because it explicitly alters the spell: if a spell is considered more specific than Reserves of Strength, then Reserves of Strength doesn't do anything when applied to that spell, including raise your Caster Level. If Reserves of Strength is considered more specific than the spell, then it does the things it specifies that it does. RoS is more specific than the spell because, if the spell was more specific, RoS would never do anything, because spells are always more specific.

2) Yes, the RAI is that Reserves of Strength removed the level-fixed limit only for the RoS effect, but that's not the RAW on the matter. The way it's written, using RoS in conjunction with a spell removes all the level-fixed limits. This was certainly not the intention, and it DMs should make rulings otherwise to fix it, but by RAW that's what it does.

3) Size-changing is certainly a giant mess of mechanics, but it's all centered around bonuses, and those bonuses don't stack with each other. However, you notice how most every single source of size-changing has a note saying it doesn't stack with other size-changers? That's because, if that note wasn't there, you could stack them, because they're not bonuses. Things that change the base instead of granting a bonus stack unless they're explicitly called out as not stacking; as an example (from Core), look at attribute increases: every four levels, you can put another point into one of your stats. Because this is increasing the actual score, rather than modifying it (as most things do), it stacks with other things that alter the actual score, such as age bonuses/penalties. Incidentally, this is why Reincarnation/Awaken loops are broken, but that's a whole different story.

Even without taking Reserves of Strength'd Greater Consumptive Fields into account, there's other ways of getting ridiculously high Caster Levels, which means there's other ways of getting this to work without Persisting Footsteps of the Divine.

[Glue Styx]

We may be getting a bit off-track. To bring it back to the target, our current fastest land speed is approx. Mach 2, courtesy of Zahnik, and our fastest air is Mach 4, also courtesy of Zahnik. Can anyone beat that? I personally don't object to a little infinite loop abuse, but only if it is somewhat directly related to movement. CL abuse is fun and all, but it's been done and redone, let's dig deep here.

(BTW, supreme kudos to anyone who can get us near c)

[AvatarVecna]

We may be getting a bit off-track. To bring it back to the target, our current fastest land speed is approx. Mach 2, courtesy of Zahnik, and our fastest air is Mach 4, also courtesy of Zahnik. Can anyone beat that? I personally don't object to a little infinite loop abuse, but only if it is somewhat directly related to movement. CL abuse is fun and all, but it's been done and redone, let's dig deep here.

(BTW, supreme kudos to anyone who can get us near c)

The CL abuse is relevant because if you have NI CL when you caster an Extended Footsteps of the Divine, the spell lasts 2*NI rounds...and then you can end the spell prematurely for a +(20*NI) ft boost to your speed.

Take, for example, a H.I.V.E. (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/12/hive.html) (let's not use my Khepri build because it requires a couple of generous DM rulings in order to work): rather than torturing my build to squeeze every last point of UMD out of it, I'm just going to do things the simple (if long) way, and have a Druid 10/Vermin Lord 10 with a Druid 7/Vermin Lord 10 cohort. The two of them will wait until they hit venerable, and then kill/reincarnate each other, gaining +3 Int/Wis/Cha every time they do so. They do this until they each have...let's say 100k Int/Wis/Cha.

Have your apprentice UMD a Gate scroll to summon up 24995 swarms; have your apprentice form a hivemind with this group, giving them all the casting of a Sorcerer 4998982 (and Cha 4998999). Have the junior hivemind cast Gate to summon up more wasp swarms (624873 of them, to be exact). Have your main character hivemind those swarms, for a sweet Caster Level of 124974582. Wild Shape into a cheetah and then, using your new Hivemind casting, cast Limited Wish to replicate Footsteps of the Divine; at the beginning of your next turn, end FotD and charge using the cheetah's sprint ability.

Using this method, you travel 12497458600 ft in 6 seconds. Mach 2? Try Warp 2.

With this build, you're racing the Enterprise, and you can basically do it whenever you want. Sure, the build-up time takes awhile, but you can shorten it through Leadership abuse; instead of your cohort being Druid 7/Vermin Lord 10, go Wilder 7/Thrallherd 10 for the cohort; have them (and their Thrallherd Thralls) each take Undead Leadership and Psicrystal Affinity (and have their Psicrystals take Leadership and Undead Leadership, since they gain feats by RAW). Your cohort should have 5 "cohorts" of their own (thrall, second thrall, undead leadership, psicrystal's leadership, psycrystal's undead leadership), and each of those guys should have 5 of their own. At that point, you make them all Vermin Lords (using early entry shenanigans to avoid level issues), which is more than enough for each of them to Gate in some swarms (through UMD if necessary), and have their hiveminds Gate in swarms for the next guy. By the time it's your main character's turn to form a hivemind, he should be measuring his swarms in powers of googol, which should be more than sufficient to theoretically fly across the universe in a single round using this method (if you take a fly speed instead of a ground speed, of course). Remaining alive in space might be a problem, but you're a 20th level character with 16th/NI'th level casting, so I'm sure you can figure something out.

[ben-zayb]

It's not technically movespeed-based, but can I cheat by using Lightning Thief (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?142080-3-5-The-Lightning-Thief-Epic-Sleight-of-Hand-Abuse) for Night Infinite movement? Could be done at low levels by being an Imp with Mark of Cania + Moment of Perfect Mind), and either Trickery Devotion or Leadership

[Glue Styx]

The CL abuse is relevant because . . . more than sufficient to theoretically fly across the universe in a single round using this method (if you take a fly speed instead of a ground speed, of course). Remaining alive in space might be a problem, but you're a 20th level character with 16th/NI'th level casting, so I'm sure you can figure something out.

I stand corrected <slow clap>. But I just meant that I would prefer tactics that weren't already popular modes of infinite cycle abuse, but since this isn't even an infinite cycle, much less a popular one, I'm totally cool with it. I only wanted to encourage original concepts for builds.

[Darrin]

It's not technically movespeed-based, but can I cheat by using Lightning Thief (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?142080-3-5-The-Lightning-Thief-Epic-Sleight-of-Hand-Abuse) for Night Infinite movement? Could be done at low levels by being an Imp with Mark of Cania + Moment of Perfect Mind), and either Trickery Devotion or Leadership

Huh. Did not know about the Imp/Mark of Cania thing. Clever.

There's another movement trick where you have N creatures grapple each other (which, oddly enough, allows them to all occupy the same square, regardless of size), and then each creature in the grapple uses the "Move" option to move the entire group up to half their speed. Helps if everybody else in the grapple voluntarily loses the opposed grapple check. Assuming average speed = 30, total speed for a round is 15' x N. I'm not sure if this had a name before, but if it didn't, then I'd like to call it the Moshpit Express.

[Fouredged Sword]

If I remember right, there are the goblin lightning thief pair build. You get two people with high enough slight of hand rolls and they can move each other 10ft as a free action.

AS A FREE ACTION.

They can move any distance and steal any number of unattended objects in zero time.