Monk WoS travelling speed during night

[quantumhound]

A level 6 Way of shadow monk can teleport 60 feet as a bonus action. So one could assume they can teleport once per turn, and a turn is 6 seconds. Doesn't that mean that during night they can travel at a speed of 36000 feet per hour? If 6s=60 feet, 1min=600 feet and 1h=36000 feet. They can teleport in dim light and darkness and on a dark night they should be able to teleport anywhere.
So in 4h they could move 27.27 miles with an average speed for 6.81mph.

How would you rule on this interpretation of the rules? They can be a fast stealthy scout, might never need a horse.

[busterswd]

A level 6 Way of shadow monk can teleport 60 feet as a bonus action. So one could assume they can teleport once per turn, and a turn is 6 seconds. Doesn't that mean that during night they can travel at a speed of 36000 feet per hour? If 6s=60 feet, 1min=600 feet and 1h=36000 feet. They can teleport in dim light and darkness and on a dark night they should be able to teleport anywhere.
So in 4h they could move 27.27 miles with an average speed for 6.81mph.

How would you rule on this interpretation of the rules? They can be a fast stealthy scout, might never need a horse.

They can actually move even faster. Bonus actions can be used in conjunction with their natural move speed and dash, which means with their passive and the mobile feat, they can actually go 2*(35 + 30 + 10) + 60, which is 210 per round. Let's say they need 30 feet to navigate obstacles, it's still 3 times faster than you calculated.

Yes, monks are really, really zippy; horses only move at 60 feet/round. There's the slight drawback of exhaustion from not sleeping, though.

[quantumhound]

Not much of a drawback considering that even with breaks for sleep they can still cover ground faster than someone on horseback.
Hadn't even considered their basic move + dash. Though I'd see dashing as extra tiring and not easily sustainable for prolonged travel. But a trained monk should be able to upkeep their extra fast basic move with teleports every 6 seconds.
Great for hunting down targets on horseback even with a days headstart. Should also be able to travel fast through forests during the day through the shadows of trees.

[Capac Amaru]

They can actually move even faster. Bonus actions can be used in conjunction with their natural move speed and dash, which means with their passive and the mobile feat, they can actually go 2*(35 + 30 + 10) + 60, which is 210 per round. Let's say they need 30 feet to navigate obstacles, it's still 3 times faster than you calculated.

Yes, monks are really, really zippy; horses only move at 60 feet/round. There's the slight drawback of exhaustion from not sleeping, though.

210ft per round

3 feet in a metre.

700m per minute

42km/h.

[UXLZ]

Well, slightly slower than that. The feet:meter ratio is 10:3, not 3:1.

[Dimolyth]

Standard move (which equivalent Dash Action + Move with 30ft speed) equals 3.6 km/h. Or 1 m/sec.
Speed of 210ft/round - that is 12.6 km/h. That is not "that fast", if DM is not calculating speed pace not round by round, but by real-world speed of a human and horse.

[busterswd]

Standard move (which equivalent Dash Action + Move with 30ft speed) equals 3.6 km/h. Or 1 m/sec.
Speed of 210ft/round - that is 12.6 km/h. That is not "that fast", if DM is not calculating speed pace not round by round, but by real-world speed of a human and horse.

Might want to recheck your math. You're getting a lot of units mixed up.

[UXLZ]

210 ft/round

210/6 ft/s

35 ft/s

35/(100/30) m/s

10.5 m/s

10.5*3.6 = 37.8 km/h

Might be some math issues or whatever, but that should be a closer number.

[Daishain]

Many DMs, myself included, are going to be quite reluctant to allow combat maneuvers to be applied to long range overland movement.

A simple and realistic ruling is that speed shenanigans like that can be maintained for minutes, or even something approaching an hour, but trying it for a whole day would kill or cripple even the superhuman D&D monks.

[INDYSTAR188]

Many DMs, myself included, are going to be quite reluctant to allow combat maneuvers to be applied to long range overland movement.

A simple and realistic ruling is that speed shenanigans like that can be maintained for minutes, or even something approaching an hour, but trying it for a whole day would kill or cripple even the superhuman D&D monks.

I had to do something similar in our 4E game. The guys were using travel rituals a lot and wanted the effects to last thru combat but I thought it was just too much. So in our game it was actually the opposite.

[PoeticDwarf]

A level 6 Way of shadow monk can teleport 60 feet as a bonus action. So one could assume they can teleport once per turn, and a turn is 6 seconds. Doesn't that mean that during night they can travel at a speed of 36000 feet per hour? If 6s=60 feet, 1min=600 feet and 1h=36000 feet. They can teleport in dim light and darkness and on a dark night they should be able to teleport anywhere.
So in 4h they could move 27.27 miles with an average speed for 6.81mph.

How would you rule on this interpretation of the rules? They can be a fast stealthy scout, might never need a horse.
There isn't a high level monk who needs a horse at all. A ordinary human monk without feats already has 60ft later and twenty times dash as a bonus action.

[coredump]

Combat speed and overland travel speed are two different things, with two different calculations.

Even regular human can travel 60' per round, which is almost 7 miles an hour. Yet can only overland 3 miles an hour.

Otherwise every Rogue will be able to 'walk' 50% faster than anybody else. It just doesn't work that way.

Plus, as mentioned, rules like Cunning Action and Shadow Jump are written and designed for combat.... their rules are not fleshed out for out of combat, let alone long term repetitive use. Assuming they work as normal for minutes (let alone hours) on end is making some big assumptions.

[TopCheese]

This is why you keep the belt of giant str (one of the larger str boost ones) for the monk and be an elf.

You carry the horse most of the time and then when you need to trance you let the horse carry you for 4 hours...

Edit: I now want to make a mounted monk...

Can you take creatures with you when you shadow jaunt? If not then get a custom magic item "horseshoes of shadowy transport" that lets you ttake horses when your shadow jump.

[Demonic Spoon]

Your maximum speed in combat is not the same as your sustainable speed over a long period of time. Basic rules pg. 63:


Every character and monster has a speed, which is the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round. This number assumes short bursts of energetic movement in the midst of a life-threatening situation.
The following rules determine how far a character or monster can move in a minute, an hour, or a day.

See the bold. You cannot simply extrapolate out in-combat speed over a longer period of time to get long term travel speed.

There are guidelines in the DMG for modifying a party's travel speed based on their actual speed. Whether or not a WoS monk can continually use their shadow step (i.e. if it's considered strenuous or not) is entirely up to DM fiat. I'd probably allow it (since it seems cool and thematic that a WoS monk could cover vast distances at night) but that is absolutely not RAW.

[Dimolyth]

Might want to recheck your math. You're getting a lot of units mixed up.

That`s a problem of a guy counting in metric system.
I`ll try recalculate more carefull:

Speed 30 ft per round means 30ft/6sec. That means 5ft/1sec.

5 feet are 1.5 meter. So, we have speed 1.5m/sec => 90m/min => 5400m/hour => 5,4 km/h.
That is fast walk of modern people.
If we count Dash Action - that will be 10,8 km/h. That`s what call "run". And, yes, in real life it is exhausting to run more than 50 km even for a sportsman.

If we add another dash from rogue that would be 16,6 km/h.

If we are taking shadow steping monk with 40ft speed (40+40+60 ft/round) that would be 25,2 km/h.

If my players will ever want to move with such speed for a traveling day, I personnally shall rule that there are Constitution saves against exhaustion. Maraphon`s rule (not about sport - about historical event). For either physical exhaustion or exhaustion invoked by negative energy of Shadow Plane (visit every round during an hour? that is 60 times). If you will force your horse to Dash - that would be exhaustion of the horse. Unless it is an undead or construct or whatever - with immunity to exhaustion.

[Dimolyth]

Might want to recheck your math. You're getting a lot of units mixed up.

That`s a problem of a guy counting in metric system.
I`ll try recalculate more carefull:

Speed 30 ft per round means 30ft/6sec. That means 5ft/1sec.

5 feet are 1.5 meter. So, we have speed 1.5m/sec => 90m/min => 5400m/hour => 5,4 km/h.
That is fast walk of modern people.
If we count Dash Action - that will be 10,8 km/h. That`s what call "run". And, yes, in real life it is exhausting to run more than 50 km even for a sportsman.

If we add another dash from rogue that would be 16,6 km/h.

If we are taking shadow steping monk with 40ft speed (40+40+60 ft/round) that would be 25,2 km/h.

If my players will ever want to move with such speed for a traveling day, I personnally shall rule that there are Constitution saves against exhaustion. Maraphon`s rule (not about sport - about historical event). For either physical exhaustion or exhaustion invoked by negative energy of Shadow Plane (visit every round during an hour? that is 60 times). If you will force your horse to Dash - that would be exhaustion of the horse. Unless it is an undead or construct or whatever - with immunity to exhaustion.

[Ruslan]

I'm glad that no one is bothered by the fact the monk can literally teleport through shadows. But, traveling 25 km overland in one hour, that part is unrealistic. Riiiiiight ....

[TopCheese]

I'm glad that no one is bothered by the fact the monk can literally teleport through shadows. But, traveling 25 km overland in one hour, that part is unrealistic. Riiiiiight ....

This is my main issue with the 3e and 5e mindset, magic gets hand waved but martial abilities can only do things a commoner could do (but more damage or higher chance).

One of the funniest things is when someone says "well I/normal humans can't do that so fighters shouldn't be able to" when that is exactly where the fighter should start.

If we applied the same philosophy to magic then the wizards would all be Rogue (Thiefs) with Sleight of Hand -_-.

It's depressing how uninspiring fantasy has become stayed over the past few decades.

[Mr.Moron]

I'm glad that no one is bothered by the fact the monk can literally teleport through shadows. But, traveling 25 km overland in one hour, that part is unrealistic. Riiiiiight ....

The issue is that both the ability to teleport through shadows, and the rules for dashing are written with a combat perspective in mind. We're given rules that are intended (or at least in all ways read to me like they are), to be used in short bursts of 6 second rounds no longer than 2 minutes consecutive at the most extreme.

It doesn't consider how they might be used over the long term and how much if any exertion they require. "Dash" is an action like any other but it represents Sprinting something which in both real life and most fantasy media takes extra effort.

In a case like this I'd be inclined to allow the full speed overland travel but probably say that being able to maintain it isn't a sure fire thing. I'd ask for checks to maintain the effort, either CON or WIS depending on if the effort is being fluffed as mental or physical.


After 5 Minutes: DC 5
After 30 Minutes: DC 8
After 1 Hour: DC 10
After 3 Hours: DC 13
After 5 Hours: DC 15
After 8 Hours: DC 17
After 12 Hours, and every 4 thereafter: DC 20


Where a failure results in a level of exhaustion. Keep in mind this isn't a carefully considered difficulty chart I made it up off the top of my head like the kind of thing I'd give at an in table-ruling.

Keep in mind at the "1 Hour" mark we're 580 rounds beyond the normal 5-20 round window within which the ability is normally used.

I think there is some space to be had between "We must take the implications of all combat abilities to their extreme" and "Combat abilities shut off outside combat".

It's like spells that might have really odd implications about the world when taken out of the context of momentary action scene in a dungeon. The game is an abstraction and isn't giving an exhaustive view of all the elements, so where they might behave strangely outside their intended use you need to build on them.

[Demonic Spoon]

In a case like this I'd be inclined to allow the full speed overland travel but probably say that being able to maintain it isn't a sure fire thing. I'd ask for checks to maintain the effort, either CON or WIS depending on if the effort is being fluffed as mental or physical.

After 5 Minutes: DC 5
After 30 Minutes: DC 8
After 1 Hour: DC 10
After 3 Hours: DC 13
After 5 Hours: DC 15
After 8 Hours: DC 17
After 12 Hours, and every 4 thereafter: DC 20


To clarify, is this intended as a series of successive checks or one? e.g. A party wants to run for 3 hours, so they make four checks (DC 5, 8, 10, and 13)? If so, then dashing for a solid hour would be quite difficult, and dashing for any more than that nigh impossible.

Also, how does this interact with rogues' bonus action dash? Do they just run 50% faster than everyone else?


I'd be inclined to lessen the extremes - create a travel pace that is faster than "fast" but not quite double normal walking speed - with less extreme DCs to avoid exhaustion.


This is my main issue with the 3e and 5e mindset, magic gets hand waved but martial abilities can only do things a commoner could do (but more damage or higher chance).

One of the funniest things is when someone says "well I/normal humans can't do that so fighters shouldn't be able to" when that is exactly where the fighter should start.

If we applied the same philosophy to magic then the wizards would all be Rogue (Thiefs) with Sleight of Hand -_-.

It's depressing how uninspiring fantasy has become stayed over the past few decades.


Stop derailing the thread with the martial v caster crusade. If you want another threadnaught on the topic, start one. This has nothing to do with the topic.

[TopCheese]

To clarify, is this intended as a series of successive checks or one? e.g. A party wants to run for 3 hours, so they make four checks (DC 5, 8, 10, and 13)? If so, then dashing for a solid hour would be quite difficult, and dashing for any more than that nigh impossible.

Also, how does this interact with rogues' bonus action dash? Do they just run 50% faster than everyone else?


I'd be inclined to lessen the extremes - create a travel pace that is faster than "fast" but not quite double normal walking speed - with less extreme DCs to avoid exhaustion.



Stop derailing the thread with the martial v caster crusade. If you want another threadnaught on the topic, start one. This has nothing to do with the topic.

I'm not derailing anything, if you hate that someone is bringing up a point then don't respond to it.

Another poster brought up a point and I replied to that poster, sorry for using the forum as a means to have discussions with others. I'll try to learn my lesson from this.

Anyways,

I don't think they put a lot of thought into the battle/not-in-battle relationship of abilities. The exploration part of this game is quite bad.

What bugs me is that it is within the realm of possibilities that a high level caster can burn all their spells in a row (9th to 1st) and have no exhaustion effects but my high Level martial/partial caster/caster still would need to roll against a DC... If we are hand waving we should treat the entire game the same way and just hand wave.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is my main issue with the 3e and 5e mindset ... It's depressing how uninspiring fantasy has become stayed over the past few decades. Complaint noted. Now, back to the topic at hand ...

Sprint versus distance running has already been covered. Nobody chose to bring up the Exhaustion mechanic, but that could be applied if the Monk just kept sprinting through loopholes whenever possible.

EDIT: oops, looks like you brought it up while I was figuring out what to post. +1 points for raising the exhaustion point, even if not for the Monk in question. It should apply to "too much sprinting for too short a time."

The Haste spell leads to a briefly exhausted state.


When the spell ends, the target can’t move or take actions until after its next turn, as a wave of lethargy sweeps over it.

@Demonic Spoon

If you want another threadnaught on the topic, start one. Love the neologism. :smallbiggrin:

[TopCheese]

I find it funny that people complain that others derail threads or talk about X, but when they stop or try to talk about the topic, the ones who did the complaining (or another) brings it back up yet again and again. Real nice.

As a DM I don't think I would allow concentration effects to continue if you are fighting off exhaustion/performing an action that results in exhaustion. Exhaustion takes your physical and mental energy and focus. So if you already have exhaustion you could keep a concentration spell up, but if you gain a level of exhaustion concentration is broken.

So haste works until you fight off exhaustion. Gaining exhaustion or not you can cast another concentration spell until you fight off another exhaustion effect.

I've never looked into specific rules on this (as exhaustion is a bad blurb) but I'll need to check the DMG for any rules on this.

[Mr.Moron]

To clarify, is this intended as a series of successive checks or one? e.g. A party wants to run for 3 hours, so they make four checks (DC 5, 8, 10, and 13)? If so, then dashing for a solid hour would be quite difficult, and dashing for any more than that nigh impossible.


Successive checks, but like I said the numbers were top of my head and more focus on the teleportation aspect than the dashing aspect. . I think numbers for plain dashing would be more forgiving. I'd tend to agree on a second examination the intervals are too close for the extended numbers to be relevant.

It's not something I've carefully examined at all. It was really meant more as hypothetical example (however poor it may have been) of a general principle than anything else:

We can assume player powers function broadly, but don't need to assume that the strict combat/dungeon context in which power descriptions were written apply universally.

If there exists a low level wizard spell which if we take at face RAW value would allow the first interested wizard to destroy the world's economy, the fact the setting as a functioning economy is clear evidence something is going on beyond the rules. Something beyond contrivances about everyone beating the first interested wizard to death for daring to abuse the RAW.

Just because monks are given a quick-combat teleport doesn't mean we necessarily have either accept that RAW numbers work across long distances without drawbacks, or take issue with using the teleport outside of combat on principle. We also don't have to apply the same rulings, solutions across all tables for all games regardless of their intent or tone.

I guess what I'm trying to say is we needn't deal with things in this manner:
http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2305

Unless you really want to.

[jkat718]

Just to take a moment and refer back to a previous post...


There isn't a high level monk who needs a horse at all. A ordinary human monk without feats already has 60ft later and twenty times dash as a bonus action.

It's kinda hard to run without feets. :smallbiggrin: