Is Dalamar's Lightning Lance too Powerful?

[Masakan]

I love this spell, No seriously I love this spell to no end from aesthetics to what it can do and all that....but at the same time I can't lie to myself, for a level 4 spell this looks kind of ridiculous. By caster level 15 you can basically do the same damage as a maxed out disintegrate spell, and your gonna be feeling it no matter what unless your flat out immune

Same could apply to wings of Flurry because it has no cap, I mean its a great spell to get. But i wonder if it's too good if your a pure caster?

[Flickerdart]

It's a blasting spell, so it already sucks. By level 15, your DC is still going to be for a 4th level spell, so expect everyone to save against it. It's SR: Yes, and needs a touch attack and save.

Wings of Flurry is good because it's dual threat (daze + damage).

[ZamielVanWeber]

Disintegrate is useful because of its ability to sculpt your environment, not it's damage.
Dalamar's Lightning Lance is extremely good for a 4th level damaging spells but still pales in comparison to more potent 4th level spells.
At 15th level when it it trying to sling around 9d6 + 30d6 they get three chances to reduce some of the damage and electricity resistance applies three times (ouch).
I would say the spell is good for a damaging spell, but lacks the combat ending power of spells like Solid Fog (also 4th level) or Flesh to Stone.

[Masakan]

Disintegrate is useful because of its ability to sculpt your environment, not it's damage.
Dalamar's Lightning Lance is extremely good for a 4th level damaging spells but still pales in comparison to more potent 4th level spells.
At 15th level when it it trying to sling around 9d6 + 30d6 they get three chances to reduce some of the damage and electricity resistance applies three times (ouch).
I would say the spell is good for a damaging spell, but lacks the combat ending power of spells like Solid Fog (also 4th level) or Flesh to Stone.

So it's not as good as it would look at first glance, really only super potent for wiping squishy mages of the face of the planet.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Squishy mage that didn't boost their touch AC, buy a cloak of resistance, and have no other defenses (such as Greater Mirror Image).

Consider this vs Flesh to Stone which gives the squishy mage one Fort save (so only cloak of resistance works) and has a higher save DC without other input.

[Masakan]

Squishy mage that didn't boost their touch AC, buy a cloak of resistance, and have no other defenses (such as Greater Mirror Image).

Consider this vs Flesh to Stone which gives the squishy mage one Fort save (so only cloak of resistance works) and has a higher save DC without other input.

You have to understand though, I've never been a fan of anticlimactic spells. And with someone with a vivid imagination as myself...all that spell would do is leave me wanting.

[Flickerdart]

You have to understand though, I've never been a fan of anticlimactic spells. And with someone with a vivid imagination as myself...all that spell would do is leave me wanting.
That doesn't really reflect on the potency of the spells in question.

Plus, "X damage, now you are dead" is just as climactic as "X DC, now you are dead."

[eggynack]

You have to understand though, I've never been a fan of anticlimactic spells. And with someone with a vivid imagination as myself...all that spell would do is leave me wanting.
That doesn't really have any bearing on the issue. The power of a spell doesn't care about how climactic or interesting you think the spell is. This is doubly true if you're trying to determine which effects are too powerful or not powerful enough.

[ZamielVanWeber]

You have to understand though, I've never been a fan of anticlimactic spells. And with someone with a vivid imagination as myself...all that spell would do is leave me wanting.
I use Dalamar's Lightning Lance myself. Sometimes one just wants to roll a pile of dice. It is generally useful as long as the target:
1) Lacks miss chances.
2) Lacks SR.
3) Had a low touch AC.

If all l these things are true (which tends to happen on the big bruiser types that have good Fort saves) you still drop 9d6 +15d6 (baring luck either way) at CL 15. That is a solid chunk of damage.

That being said this spell still isn't overpowered at all. Heck you could drop it to 1st and it would still probably be fine since pure damage is not an effective use of magic

[Masakan]

I use Dalamar's Lightning Lance myself. Sometimes one just wants to roll a pile of dice. It is generally useful as long as the target:
1) Lacks miss chances.
2) Lacks SR.
3) Had a low touch AC.

If all l these things are true (which tends to happen on the big bruiser types that have good Fort saves) you still drop 9d6 +15d6 (baring luck either way) at CL 15. That is a solid chunk of damage.

That being said this spell still isn't overpowered at all. Heck you could drop it to 1st and it would still probably be fine since pure damage is not an effective use of magic

So in other words don't feel too bad taking it got it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's a lot more powerful than other blasting spells of that level. ANY other blasting spell of that level, in fact. Or at least it looks that way. It certainly has the highest potential damage of all 4th level spells available without extensive CL boosts.

On the other hand doing damage isn't exactly a gamebreaker, especially easily reduced single-target damage. Sure, if
1. your target misses all saves
2. has no resistance against electricity
3. has no miss chances
4. has too low touch AC to prevent even one hit
5. has no SR

then it's about as powerful as a moderately optimized barbarian hitting at the end of a charge, but he only needs one or at most two rolls to succeed and can do it all day long.
You can certainly improve on that with metamagic, but from that perspective it's hardly as impressive as it looks on paper. It is a lot of fun with Born of Three Thunders and Mark of the Dauntless though, even if it's hardly the most effective caster strategy.

[Dondasch]

At 15th level when it it trying to sling around 9d6 + 30d6 they get three chances to reduce some of the damage and electricity resistance applies three times (ouch).

No, it doesn't (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#resistanceToEnergy).


As for the spell itself: It's definitely one of the better blasting spells for raw numbers, but it also has three points of failure (touch attacks, SR, and then Fort save). If you can pump up your to-hit, CL, and DC, it's very good (relative to other blasting spells).

[StriderITP]

Like everyone else has said before, there's just so much DLL has to go through to actually work and it's not a real instant combat ender that many more powerful spells happen to be. That being said, it is fun if you want to pretend you're playing shadowrun for a second and just roll a whole sack of d6s.

[Masakan]

No, it doesn't (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#resistanceToEnergy).


As for the spell itself: It's definitely one of the better blasting spells for raw numbers, but it also has three points of failure (touch attacks, SR, and then Fort save). If you can pump up your to-hit, CL, and DC, it's very good (relative to other blasting spells).

For a pure caster no they would only have a base attack bonus of like 7 by that point, but this spell is actually pretty decent for a gish, very easy to get twice that by then, even easier to get the CL needed with Abjurant champion's Martial arcanist feature and getting more charisma would not be too big an issue.

[Sqmach]

Too powerful? No. But its decent if you are going for blasting.

Also, best spell I've found to emulate Lightning Spears from Dark Souls.

[Seto]

That being said this spell still isn't overpowered at all. Heck you could drop it to 1st and it would still probably be fine since pure damage is not an effective use of magic.

Talk about an overstatement. Would you really be okay with a 1st-level character having that ? In most games, pure damaging magic is effective enough and Scorching Ray is a go-to spell. I know it is possible to do better things with a spell slot, I know of the creative uses high-level play sees for magic, and I completely agree this spell is not overpowered, but let's not act like high-op is the norm.

[ZamielVanWeber]

No, it doesn't (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#resistanceToEnergy).

That link says nothing about 3 instances of electricity damage from a single spell not being resisted three times. Could you elaborate?


Talk about an overstatement. Would you really be okay with a 1st-level character having that ? In most games, pure damaging magic is effective enough and Scorching Ray is a go-to spell. I know it is possible to do better things with a spell slot, I know of the creative uses high-level play sees for magic, and I completely agree this spell is not overpowered, but let's not act like high-op is the norm.

Um, sleep and color spray both have combat ending potential at level one. Not creatively either, just automatically. More creative uses of other spells exist Dalamar's Lightning Lance can knock out one person, not all of them (not to mention you have a roughly 50% miss chance against many enemies of that level). It would be a very strong 1st level spell indeed, but there is precedent for insane 1st level spells.

[Dondasch]

That link says nothing about 3 instances of electricity damage from a single spell not being resisted three times. Could you elaborate?

I've bolded the relevant portion:


A creature with resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain type each round, but it does not have total immunity.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I've bolded the relevant portion:

Wow I totally missed that. Thank you.

[Flickerdart]

I've bolded the relevant portion:
Isn't that one of those things that's only in the SRD but not in the PHB?

[Warrnan]

I'm a firm believer in practical optimization. If you love a certain playstyle, such as magical ranged damage dealer, than go for it. Cover your favorite spell's weakness and go for it. Grab some levels that increase both caster level and base attack bonus. Just because a playstyle isn't the most powerful option doesn't mean it isn't fun or viable.

Sometimes you just want to shoot people in the face and blow stuff up. Just make sure you have some scrolls and wands for the utility stuff the party needs from an arcanist, then go for some pyromaniac happy time.

Optimizing can be about making the most powerful choice every time. It can also be as simple as making your favorite playstyle as effective as possible.

[AmberVael]

Isn't that one of those things that's only in the SRD but not in the PHB?

Yes. Energy resistance applies per attack, not per round.

The exact quote from the Monster Manual is:


A creature with this special quality ignores some damage of the indicated type each time it takes damage of that kind.

The offending wording comes from the DMG, but the DMG is not the primary source, and also contradicts itself in its own example (saying 'per attack' rather than 'per round'). Given that the Monster Manual version is supported by the Rules Compendium, its very safe to say that this wording in the SRD is just wrong.

[Fouredged Sword]

It is a good spell to fill a 4th level spell slot at higher levels. It seems like a really good choice for applying the Elven Spell Lore energy substitution you picked up for the dispelling bonus on your wizard. Being able to target with sonic or some other type of damage in sufficient amounts to really hurt seems like a good idea. I suggest desiccation or something else fairly obscure.

[nedz]

Sounds like a useful spell for Ray-Sorcerers, or Rogue/Sorcerers.
A Spellwarped Lightning Bolt is a level lower and almost as much damage, if you have that PrC.

It's not overly powerful but probably quite fun.

[Blackhawk748]

I can see it on a Blaster Sorc, there are definitely worse things you can put in the slot.

[Zanos]

Its too powerful if you compare it to other 4th level spells that deal damage. It has to get through a fort save and SR, but touch attacks shouldn't be hard to make, and even if they make all the fort saves you're probably dealing more damage than you would have with another 4th level damage spell. 36d6 damage at level 15 is quite a lot from a 4th level slot, considering that disintegrate has to get through all the same defenses and deals 30d6 damage at CL 15, while being two spell levels higher.

[Vhaidara]

36d6 damage at level 15 is quite a lot from a 4th level slot, considering that disintegrate has to get through all the same defenses and deals 30d6 damage at CL 15, while being two spell levels higher.

Not quite. Disintegrate only has to go through them once. This has to go through them 3 times each. That's 9 breakdown points instead of 3

[Kelb_Panthera]

Its too powerful if you compare it to other 4th level spells that deal damage. It has to get through a fort save and SR, but touch attacks shouldn't be hard to make, and even if they make all the fort saves you're probably dealing more damage than you would have with another 4th level damage spell. 36d6 damage at level 15 is quite a lot from a 4th level slot, considering that disintegrate has to get through all the same defenses and deals 30d6 damage at CL 15, while being two spell levels higher.

Applicable defenses are part of what determines if a spell is level appropriate. Since literally every form of defense other than DR applies, the spell is acceptable at a much higher damage potential.

Even comparing to disintegrate, DLL is subject to 3 instances of energy resistance while disintegrate isn't subject to it at all. That more than makes up for both the difference in damage potential and justifies the lower level.

It's a really good blasting spell, but I wouldn't peg it as too good at all.

[Thanatosia]

That link says nothing about 3 instances of electricity damage from a single spell not being resisted three times. Could you elaborate?
The part where it says it is not subject to being reduced by Similar Spells and effects to protection from elements (electric) and sparkshield makes me wonder if electric resistance is supposed to affect it at all. I guess it depends on how broadly your DM interprets similar.

[animewatcha]

That part is referring to the impact damage portion. The 3d6 per projectile part. One can always do energy substitution to acid ( or DM permiting, sonic ).

[Flickerdart]

The part where it says it is not subject to being reduced by Similar Spells and effects to protection from elements (electric) and sparkshield makes me wonder if electric resistance is supposed to affect it at all. I guess it depends on how broadly your DM interprets similar.
It's specifically referring to spells. Innate energy resistance is not a spell.

[Thanatosia]

It's specifically referring to spells. Innate energy resistance is not a spell.
Wierd that they would say spells AND EFFECTS if it was only supposed to be refering to spells exclusively. But you could make a valid argument that a creatures innate energy resistance is not an 'effect' either. It's all pretty vague, but it sort of feels to me like the intent is that the damage is not subject to things that reduce/prevent electric damage, but it's so badly writtain that it's easy to argue.

[Zanos]

Not quite. Disintegrate only has to go through them once. This has to go through them 3 times each. That's 9 breakdown points instead of 3
That's not really an advantage or a disadvantage. It makes disintegrate more prone to highs and lows, and Dalamars more consistent, in the middle of the road. Also worth nothing that the save on dalamars is for 8d6 damage vs 13d6, which is quite a bit better than the 4d6 on disintegrate.

Also, I'm not 100% on this, but I think you only roll SR once, even for multihit spells.


Applicable defenses are part of what determines if a spell is level appropriate. Since literally every form of defense other than DR applies, the spell is acceptable at a much higher damage potential.

Even comparing to disintegrate, DLL is subject to 3 instances of energy resistance while disintegrate isn't subject to it at all. That more than makes up for both the difference in damage potential and justifies the lower level.

It's a really good blasting spell, but I wouldn't peg it as too good at all.
Its a much better blasting spell than anything really available at its level. Obviously you shouldn't use it on targets highly resistant to electricity without changing the damage type, but thats not worth the reduction in spell levels, in my opinion at least.