Feats: Where do we go from here?

[AstralFire]

Feats are one of those things that I've always appreciated in concept for making characters of the same class feel more different. And as we continue the very slow process of moving our gaming group over from our heavily homebrewed 3E, it's something that I see the other players want a little more of. We like 5E, but we like customizing.

For both homebrew and future splatbooks -- what makes an acceptable feat in this more structurally limited system? I think feat chains should remain forever banished, but is picking up another class's feature acceptable in a minor way, like a limited version of Expertise, or using a feat to gain another class's spell? What about class-specific feats -- more ki points, more metamagic points, etc.

We (as in, my gaming group) find these questions a bit more difficult to answer for 5E because the skills are so open-ended that we don't want to step on their toes and restrict characters, but we also want to eventually see a little more wiggle room in design.

[TopCheese]

Feats are one of those things that I've always appreciated in concept for making characters of the same class feel more different. And as we continue the very slow process of moving our gaming group over from our heavily homebrewed 3E, it's something that I see the other players want a little more of. We like 5E, but we like customizing.

For both homebrew and future splatbooks -- what makes an acceptable feat in this more structurally limited system? I think feat chains should remain forever banished, but is picking up another class's feature acceptable in a minor way, like a limited version of Expertise, or using a feat to gain another class's spell? What about class-specific feats -- more ki points, more metamagic points, etc.

We (as in, my gaming group) find these questions a bit more difficult to answer for 5E because the skills are so open-ended that we don't want to step on their toes and restrict characters, but we also want to eventually see a little more wiggle room in design.

4e to the rescue!..

No but seriously multiclassing via feats was pretty awesome in 4e. I would love to see that set up placed in 5e.

Start with a low level ability from a class (give stat boost or whatever to balance) and then with later feats you could pick up more features from that class, but have them be sub class features.

[erradin]

So the battle's done and we kinda won, so we sound our victory cheer!... Ahem, sorry, just finished watching Buffy.

Anyway, looking at the kinds of feats available, this system clearly has a different vision: feats are major apects of training. They represent significant bonuses, up from 3.5 minor conveniences that you could add up. The tradeoff, of course, is that you have to sacrifice an opportunity to inncrease your ability scores to get one. My analysis-and admitedly not a super deep analysis- is that they come in two varieties of different power levels.

1) feats which boost an ability score by 1 and give you some small benefit- like improved social mobility, or little improvements to things you can already do. I would say a feat that gives you +1 wisdom (or dex?) and a ki point might be at this level- though it shouldn't give you maneuvers to use the ki-point on.

The second type gives you NO ability score increase, but provides what might be described as a class feature-albeit one that doesn't get much stronger over time. Ritual Casting, for example, gives you a Non-main wizard class feature. I would say that a feat that gives you a single ki point and a minor ability (like attacking an extra time at the cost of a ki point, or dashing as a bonus action- or both) might go here. Options are important for these feats, but you have to be careful not to give out major class features, or the ability to ignore important limitations on such features.

[pwykersotz]

I've considered grabbing a complete list of 3.5 prestige classes, filtering down the concepts, and making feats for them. In my opinion, any ability that the game hasn't introduced its fair game, though I shy away from pluses to hit and damage. To me a feat fills a similar role to a magic item in that regard.

[AstralFire]

4e to the rescue!..

No but seriously multiclassing via feats was pretty awesome in 4e. I would love to see that set up placed in 5e.

Start with a low level ability from a class (give stat boost or whatever to balance) and then with later feats you could pick up more features from that class, but have them be sub class features.

4E multiclassing feats was one of the things I had in mind! Multiclass feats were a neat idea that I thought were not well-suited to that system but would work nicely in this one.

One thing especially near to my heart is flying -- at first that seemed to be a very high level ability, but they brought the Aarakocra out of the box with no level adjustment, so that tells me that flight is a high level ability more for flavor reasons than for power reasons, I think.


So the battle's done and we kinda won, so we sound our victory cheer!... Ahem, sorry, just finished watching Buffy.

Anyway, looking at the kinds of feats available, this system clearly has a different vision: feats are major apects of training. They represent significant bonuses, up from 3.5 minor conveniences that you could add up. The tradeoff, of course, is that you have to sacrifice an opportunity to inncrease your ability scores to get one. My analysis-and admitedly not a super deep analysis- is that they come in two varieties of different power levels.

1) feats which boost an ability score by 1 and give you some small benefit- like improved social mobility, or little improvements to things you can already do. I would say a feat that gives you +1 wisdom (or dex?) and a ki point might be at this level- though it shouldn't give you maneuvers to use the ki-point on.

The second type gives you NO ability score increase, but provides what might be described as a class feature-albeit one that doesn't get much stronger over time. Ritual Casting, for example, gives you a Non-main wizard class feature. I would say that a feat that gives you a single ki point and a minor ability (like attacking an extra time at the cost of a ki point, or dashing as a bonus action- or both) might go here. Options are important for these feats, but you have to be careful not to give out major class features, or the ability to ignore important limitations on such features.

This is pretty much how we see existing feats, yes. We bumped up a few of the less impressive feats in minor ways to keep to this schema -- Athlete can jump better, Skilled gets an ability score boost, etc.


I've considered grabbing a complete list of 3.5 prestige classes, filtering down the concepts, and making feats for them. In my opinion, any ability that the game hasn't introduced its fair game, though I shy away from pluses to hit and damage. To me a feat fills a similar role to a magic item in that regard.

That would actually be a really neat idea. Including some of the more flavorful base classes (Binder, Swordsage, Truenamer) would be cool, too.

[mephnick]

One thing especially near to my heart is flying -- at first that seemed to be a very high level ability, but they brought the Aarakocra out of the box with no level adjustment, so that tells me that flight is a high level ability more for flavor reasons than for power reasons, I think.

To be fair, it also came out with a warning saying that allowing them could significantly unbalance the game at lower levels, so it's not just flavour. I don't allow them and I think that's a pretty popular stance from what I've read.

[Theodoxus]

We have some examples already - Martial Adept, for instance. Having a feat grant a core subclass ability that doesn't improve if you're not that (sub)class, should be acceptable. Likewise, WotC has given their blessing to creating new subclasses by manipulating the abilities in different classes, mixing and mashing them to your hearts content, provided the abilities are the same or lower level (arguably, things like Favored Soul Sorcerer subclass is stronger than the core Sorcerer subclasses, but I think that's more of the free spells you get and less the fact that non-sorc spells are provided).

I'd be fine with adapting a feat that gave a 1d6 sneak, but maximizes at 1d6 per odd character level - a MC rogue would receive benefit (Fighter 2/Rogue X would be quite formidable), but a pure rogue wouldn't.

I'd be wary of granting spell levels, it throws the MC spell slots into disarray, but offering a new spell or spells, based on your class, I could see - even a feat chain "Can be taken multiple times, but the new spell must be one level higher than the previous, and you must have a spell slot of the appropriate level to cast." kind of thing.

I'd also be wary of making feats from anything that recharges on a short rest. Depending on what they are, they're probably better on a long rest recharge; you don't want your wizard to be just as good at Flurry as your monk... ;)

But go nuts, more options tend to be more fun - and finding/fixing broken options is fun too :)

[MaxWilson]

To be fair, it also came out with a warning saying that allowing them could significantly unbalance the game at lower levels, so it's not just flavour. I don't allow them and I think that's a pretty popular stance from what I've read.

Flying unbalances the game about as much as the Mobile feat or the Spike Growth spell, which is to say that it can be awesome against melee-centric monsters, but you need the party to cooperate with your kiting strategy or the damage just gets shifted elsewhere.

[Kryx]

Flying unbalances the game about as much as the Mobile feat or the Spike Growth spell, which is to say that it can be awesome against melee-centric monsters, but you need the party to cooperate with your kiting strategy or the damage just gets shifted elsewhere.
And yet flying by any other means is heavily limited by concentration or another mechanic. Many people find it unbalanced. Many choose to ignore that factor.

Either way we shouldn't let this descend into an Aarakocra debate.

[Shining Wrath]

It's possible to build new feats by mixing features from existing feats. One of my players just requested a feat which combined Observant and Keen Mind - no ASI, gets the +5 passive skills, the remember things that happened within the last month, and the lip reading. I let him have it.

[TopCheese]

And yet flying by any other means is heavily limited by concentration or another mechanic. Many people find it unbalanced. Many choose to ignore that factor.

Either way we shouldn't let this descend into an Aarakocra debate.

This makes me think... Racial feats that gives you abilities of those races to another race.

Like if you are a human and take the Aarakocra feat, you learn to make wings (steam punk or good old wax and feathers) that work like the Aarakocra.

If you are a human and choose Wild Elf feat, you learn to hide while in lightly obscurement and +5 bonus to speed.

This could be an interesting thing to do.

Mimic (Aarakocra)
Prerequisite: Level 8
You have learned to mimic the Aarakocra and have designed your own set of wings that work identical to the Aarakocra (can't wear higher than medium armor, etc).

Your fly speed is equal to your walking speed.

[Mjolnirbear]

Feat: Metamagic

You gain the ability to turn spell slots into spell points for the purposes of metamagic. You do not gain any spellpoints from this feat.

Choose one metamagic option (not Quickened Spell) from the Sorcerer class ability. When you take the Cast A Spell action, you may use a bonus action to modify your spell with metamagic.

Reasons: no other class has metamagic. It is not unreasonable that some casters would research this ability to unlock it; but since it is not an inborn talent, it costs a bonus action. (Or perhaps a reaction?)

(Edit: in case it's not clear: you only get one metamagic, the one you chose when you took the feat)

[Strill]

Feat: Metamagic

You gain the ability to turn spell slots into spell points for the purposes of metamagic. You do not gain any spellpoints from this feat.

Choose one metamagic option (not Quickened Spell) from the Sorcerer class ability. When you take the Cast A Spell action, you may use a bonus action to modify your spell with metamagic.

Reasons: no other class has metamagic. It is not unreasonable that some casters would research this ability to unlock it; but since it is not an inborn talent, it costs a bonus action. (Or perhaps a reaction?)

This would make Sorcerers obsolete. Wizards with this feat would be tremendously overpowered.

[TopCheese]

Feat: Metamagic

You gain the ability to turn spell slots into spell points for the purposes of metamagic. You do not gain any spellpoints from this feat.

Choose one metamagic option (not Quickened Spell) from the Sorcerer class ability. When you take the Cast A Spell action, you may use a bonus action to modify your spell with metamagic.

Reasons: no other class has metamagic. It is not unreasonable that some casters would research this ability to unlock it; but since it is not an inborn talent, it costs a bonus action. (Or perhaps a reaction?)

Yeah way too powerful/invasive.

How about this.

Metamagic Spell
Prerequisite: Ability to cast a 1st level or higher spell.

Benefit: Choose one metamagic effect from the Sorcerer list. You may apply that metamagic to a spell of your choice once per short rest by giving up a first level or higher spell as a bonus action. Once you have chosen your metamagic effect you can"t change it.

I'm debating between short rest and long rest. If I go short rests then technically someone may be better than the Sorcerer at applying a specific metamagic (can do it more often) however per long rest may not be worth a feat... +shrug*

Another one that would be worth a feat...

Advance Tutelage
Prerequisite: Fighter (AK) or Rogue (AT) level 4
Benefit: You may learn spells from one additional wizard school. Additionally your spellcasting DC is always at least 15 when you cast EK or AT spells.

[Mjolnirbear]

This would make Sorcerers obsolete. Wizards with this feat would be tremendously overpowered.

Obsolete? Hardly. Powerful? Possibly. You get no points, so to use it at all you need to sacrifice spell slots. It costs a bonus action. And you only get one choice. Quickened is out. For the power metas that leaves Heightened (quite expensive) and Twin (also expensive). And for a meta like Subtle Spell, the power gained is minimal.

But I'm not opposed to making it once per (long/short) rest. The reason i didn't do so originally is because a feat, a precious feat slot, must be worth taking or it's pointless. Taking a feat to use a meta that you can only use once per rest, *and* costs a bonus action, *and* costs an extra spell slot, might not be seen as worth it.

[Strill]

Obsolete? Hardly. Powerful? Possibly. You get no points, so to use it at all you need to sacrifice spell slots.As do Sorcerers. They get Spell Points instead of Arcane Recovery.

It costs a bonus action.Not a big deal.
And you only get one choice.Sorcerers only get two choices until level 10.
Quickened is out.Quickened isn't even a big deal. Twinned is way more powerful, since it's the only thing in the game that can bypass Concentration.


But I'm not opposed to making it once per (long/short) rest. The reason i didn't do so originally is because a feat, a precious feat slot, must be worth taking or it's pointless. Taking a feat to use a meta that you can only use once per rest, *and* costs a bonus action, *and* costs an extra spell slot, might not be seen as worth it.

Have you compared Sorcerer to Bard? They're pretty similar, and it's easy to compare what makes each of them unique. While Bard gets tons of skills, expertise, jack of all trades, bardic inspiration, song of rest, countercharm, and magical secrets, all the Sorcerer gets instead is metamagic. That's it. If you think that giving away half of what makes the Sorcerer unique is justified, you've got things really mixed up.

In other words, YES, a feat that is only usable once per long rest, costs a bonus action, and additional spell slots, is ABSOLUTELY worth getting Twinned Spell. Twinned Spell is just that good.

[unwise]

Flying unbalances the game about as much as the Mobile feat or the Spike Growth spell, which is to say that it can be awesome against melee-centric monsters, but you need the party to cooperate with your kiting strategy or the damage just gets shifted elsewhere.

This is true. I think a group should seldom if ever be less effective by having every player be involved in a combat. I had a kiting/stealth specialist character once and I could solo kill almost any encounter, it would be quicker if other ranged folks helped, but was not necessary. The fact is that the group would get bored though and run in to fight, despite it being tactically unsound. They knew they were really making things worse by doing what their PC was built around, but did it anyway. That is not an ideal situation to put people in.

I agree with the above that flying is not much worse than the other options listed, I however don't much like how some of those options play out in practice, so certainly would not want to add another always-on power like that to the game mix.

[Theodoxus]

As do Sorcerers. They get Spell Points instead of Arcane Recovery.
Not a big deal. Sorcerers only get two choices until level 10. Quickened isn't even a big deal. Twinned is way more powerful, since it's the only thing in the game that can bypass Concentration.



Have you compared Sorcerer to Bard? They're pretty similar, and it's easy to compare what makes each of them unique. While Bard gets tons of skills, expertise, jack of all trades, bardic inspiration, song of rest, countercharm, and magical secrets, all the Sorcerer gets instead is metamagic. That's it. If you think that giving away half of what makes the Sorcerer unique is justified, you've got things really mixed up.

In other words, YES, a feat that is only usable once per long rest, costs a bonus action, and additional spell slots, is ABSOLUTELY worth getting Twinned Spell. Twinned Spell is just that good.

You're kidding, right? If you think the only thing that differentiates a sorc from other casters is just metamagic, you obviously haven't read sorcerer. Sure, sorcery points and metamagic are the only things the base sorc gets, but you do get access to bloodlines - not exactly something to sneeze at, and at times, better than the bard abilities. Also, I'm not of the opinion that 1 skill equals tons; nor that expertise equals tons. Inspiration is nifty, but generally guidance is sufficient. Jack of all trades is antithesis to 'tons of skills'. Song of rest is meh, countercharm is niche. Magical secrets are sweet... though I guess going 18 Bard / 2 Sorc gets you everything you could need, right?