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Amphimir Míriel
2007-05-18, 01:14 PM
A proposed solution to the Sword and Board and Two-Weapon Fighting problems

Problem Number 1: There is almost no incentive for a character to use a shield. This is awfully different from real life, where shields were used by a variety of cultures with great effectiveness.

Diagnosis: With the rules as written, if a character wants to boost her Armor Class, she must use the Combat Expertise feat or use the Total Defense option, rendering her attacks almost completely ineffective.

Proposed solution: Two extra feats, one to boost a shield’s effectiveness and one to add a shield bash to a full attack sequence.

SHIELD SPECIALIZATION [GENERAL]
You have had extensive training in order to use a shield to protect your body more efficiently.

Prerequisite: Shield proficiency, BAB +3

Benefit: When using a shield, your shield bonus to AC improves as follows: When using a buckler, your shield bonus improves by 1; when using a light shield, heavy shield or tower shield, your shield bonus improves by 2. This bonus is cumulative to any magical enhancement bonuses the shield might have.

This bonus is not applicable if the character uses an animated shield, since this feat assumes expert handling and angling of the shield by the bearer, beyond what’s capable by an animate object spell.

Special: A fighter may select Shield Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Edit: I have been told there is a feat called Shield Specialization in a splatbook (Players Handbook 2, apparently)… I don’t buy WotC splatbooks, so I don’t have access to it. Still, I don’t think it is as good as this one, or people would not complain as much about sword and board useless ; )

GREATER SHIELD BASH [GENERAL]
You can add a shield strike to your full attack combination.

Prerequisite: Shield proficiency, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, Fighter level 8

Benefit: When using a shield, and using the full attack option, you can perform an extra attack per turn, at your highest attack bonus. This attack must be a shield bash.

Special: A fighter may select Greater Shield Bash as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Results: Apparently satisfactory. Now a character with Full Plate Armor, Heavy Steel Shield and the Shield Specialization feat can get up to AC 22 (before any magical bonuses), without sacrificing attack bonuses… He will not be the damage dealing ace of the group, but he will be able to hold up a dungeon corridor more effectively (especially if he uses the Stand Still feat from the psionic section of the SRD), while his allies rain arrows/spells to the enemy

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Problem Number 2: The Two-Weapon style is heavily penalized. This probably has its root on the two-weapon fighting rules of the second edition of AD&D, where there were almost no penalties to it, and a lot of melee characters had the Ambidexterity non-weapon proficiency. There are also problems with characters not being able to attack more than once and move as well.

Diagnosis: With the rules as written, a character must spend 3-5 feats to fight with two weapons, and still she is attacking with penalties. According to WotC, if a character could attack at full attack bonus with two weapons, it would be overpowered compared to other melee characters.

Proposed solution: I disagree with WotC’s analysis, yet I accept that the Two-Weapon style should require multiple feats to master, since Real Life two-weapon fighting was (according to many sources) an exotic and difficult option, used only by few. I have found the Two Weapon fighting rules from Monte Cook’s Arcana Evolved very useful, and since they are Open Game Content, I post them here, along with my modifications to the Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting feats. I also include a “Two Weapon Charge” feat.


AMBIDEXTERITY [TALENT*]
You can use your right and left hands equally well.

Prerequisites: Dex 15, character level 1st only

Benefit: The character ignores all penalties for using an off-hand. She is neither left handed nor right handed.

Normal: Without this talent, a character using her off hand suffers a –4 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks, and skill checks. For example, a right-handed character wielding a weapon with her left hand suffers a –4 penalty to attack rolls with that weapon.

Special: A 1st-level ranger is treated as having Ambidexterity, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor. Talents are feats that can only be taken at first character level.
(This feat is from Monte Cook’s Arcana Evolved, a variant PHB published by Malhavoc Press)


TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL] (modified!)
You can fight with a weapon in each hand, with reduced penalties.

Prerequisite: Dex 15

Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced by 4.

Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

Special: A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.
A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.


TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING, IMPROVED [GENERAL] (modified!)
You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon for every attack you can make with your primary weapon.

Prerequisites: Dex 17, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +9.

Benefit: When using the full attack option, for each attack you can do with your primary weapon, you can make an additional attack with your secondary weapon, albeit at a cumulative –5 penalty for each extra attack after the first.

Normal: Without this feat, you can only get a single extra attack with an off-hand weapon.

Special: A fighter may select Improved Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING, MASSIVE [GENERAL]
You can use heavier than normal weapons in each hand.

Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Strength 17, base attack bonus +7

Benefit: The character can use any one-handed weapon in her off hand as though it were a light weapon.

Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.
(This feat is from Monte Cook’s Arcana Evolved, a variant PHB published by Malhavoc Press)

TWO-WEAPON POUNCE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 19, Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +11

Benefit: When wielding two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you can make a full attack as part of a charge. You do not get the +2 bonus on the attack roll you get on a regular charge, and you take a -4 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

Special: A 11th-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Pounce, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor. A fighter may select Two-Weapon Pounce as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Now, with these feats, the Two Weapon Fighting table becomes as follows:

{table=head]Condition | Primary Hand | Off Hand
Normal |-6 |-10
Off-hand weapon is light |-4 |-8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat |-2 |-6
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat |+0 |-4
Ambidexterity talent |-6 |-6
Off-hand weapon is light and Ambidexterity talent |-4 |-4
Two-Weapon Fighting feat and Ambidexterity talent |-2 |-2
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat and Ambidexterity talent |+0 |+0
Massive Two-Weapon Fighting feat |+0 |-4
Massive Two-Weapon Fighting feat and Ambidexterity talent |+0 |+0
[/table]
(This table is from Monte Cook’s Arcana Evolved, a variant PHB published by Malhavoc Press)


Results: It is found that even with these feats (that seem “overpowered” at first sight), the two-handed fighter still dishes out a lot more damage (and has more free feats!) than a two weapon ranger.

Example 1: A 7th level ranger with STR 15 and two long swords can make the following attacks

Attack sequence (2 long swords) +9 (1d8+2), +9 (1d8+2), +4 (1d8+2), +4 (1d8+2) =

26 average damage (12-40), assuming all 4 hit; or 13 average assuming only two hit

While a 7th level fighter with STR 19 and a great sword and the power attack feat

Attack sequence: (great sword) +6 (2d6+16), +1 (2d6+16) =

46 average damage (36-56) assuming both hit; or 23 average (18-28) assuming only one hits


Example 2: An 11th level ranger with STR 17 and two long swords can make the following attacks:

Attack sequence (2 long swords) +14 (1d8+3), +9 (1d8+3), +4 (1d8+3), +14 (1d8+3), +9 (1d8+3), +4 (1d8+3) =

45 average damage (24-66), assuming all 6 hit; or 22 average assuming only 3 hit.

While an 11th level fighter with STR 20 and a great sword and the power attack feat

Attack sequence: (great sword) +11 (2d6+17), +6 (2d6+17), +1 (2d6+17) =

72 average damage (57-87) assuming all 3 hit; or 24 average (19-29) assuming only one hits

These examples assume better strength for the fighter since they don’t have the multiple ability dependency of rangers. Other factors that haven’t been taken into account (and that someone else might add) include: The probabilities of hitting with 4 attacks vs. 2 attacks, magical weapons or strength boosting items, etc.)

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So, in conclusion: while these modifications improve the two-weapon fighting and sword and board styles, the two handed fighter remains the king of damage dealing. This is intentional, as it keeps up with realism.

However, this does fulfill my goal of making the Sword and Board Paladin in full plate and large shield now being a more effective meatshield and the Two-Weapon Ranger becoming more effective at cutting his way through lots of smaller enemies, one 5ft step at a time, Belkar style.

And yes, the wizard is still Batman… but that’s a whole other thread

Matthew
2007-05-18, 01:44 PM
Is this for 3.0 or something? You know Ambidexterity has been rolled into two Weapon Fighting now?

Anywho, there are already a string of Shield Feats available in the PHB2, including Shield Specialisation. These look okay to me, but they don't really address the central problem, which isn't really AC related. Level 1-3 Characters should already be using shields fairly regularly. Their opponents don't have the Hit Points to make it worth using a Two Handed Weapon and the Characetrs don't have the BAB to spare either.

The core problem is that Power Attack is way overpowered (compared to other Feats, not Full Spell Casters) and bringing anything into line with it marginalises everything else.

By far the easiest way to make Two Weapon Fighting viable is tear down the Feat Wall and get rid of Off Hand penalties to Strength DB and allow Power attack to work with Light Weapons, as well as making the first Off Hand Attack part of a Standard Attack Action.

Here's, for reference, a bunch of Feats I proposed:

Even Handed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1793539#post1793539)
Mobile Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1798151#post1798151)
Two Weapon Defence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31338)
Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31337)
Skilful Defence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34241)
Shield Block (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43960)

The above are Feat intensive, to say the least, but they are really intended as Rules Mods, rather than actual Feat Trees. I would grant Even Handed and Mobile Two Weapon Fighting to all Melee Classes (maybe all Classes) for free. Two Weapon Defence and Two Weapon Fighting I would combine into one Feat Tree, requiring four Feats altogether.
Skilful Defence is probably too silly, increased Armour Class is not really the answer in my opinion, but it is a possibility. Shield Block is my favoured solution to Shield problems at the moment...

...but here's a link to the latest Opposed Attack Roll Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44108), which is one of the best ways of modelling the advantages of having a Shield.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-18, 03:32 PM
Why exactly are shields underpowered, and what do they have to do with full defense or combat expertise?

The main bonus of shields is the fact that they can be enchanted seperately from Armor, and therefore for significantly less cost.

+1 Shield/+1 Armor: 2000 vs. +2 Armor: 4000
+1 Shield/+2 Armor: 6000 vs. +3 Armor: 9000
+2 Shield/+2 Armor: 8000 vs. +4 Armor: 16000
+3 Shield/+2 Armor: 13000 vs. +5 Armor: 25000

Not to mention the potential for Shield maneuvers such as bashing, or the feats from Comp Warrior or PHB2.

I don't think your feat here is overpowered by any means, but it does suffer from the fact that you're spending one of your precious few feats for a static +1/+2 to AC. Ideally, feats should give you flexibility and combat options.

Reptilius
2007-05-18, 03:37 PM
The Massive Two-Weapon Fighting Feat is pretty bad. The Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting from Comp. Adv. has the same benefits, but only needs Str 13 and Two-Weapon Fighting.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-05-18, 03:38 PM
Is this for 3.0 or something? You know Ambidexterity has been rolled into two Weapon Fighting now?


Yes, I know... but I decided to bring it back in order to have a way to reduce the penalties on TWF (both on Attack Bonus and on Strenght bonuses), while keeping it a tad feat intensive.

I didnt want to give everything on one feat... Fighting with two weapons should be still difficult.



Anywho, there are already a string of Shield Feats available in the PHB2, including Shield Specialisation.


Yeah, but PHB2 is not core and not OGL, so many groups (like mine) can't use it



These look okay to me, but they don't really address the central problem, which isn't really AC related. Level 1-3 Characters should already be using shields fairly regularly. Their opponents don't have the Hit Points to make it worth using a Two Handed Weapon and the Characetrs don't have the BAB to spare either.

The core problem is that Power Attack is way overpowered (compared to other Feats, not Full Spell Casters) and bringing anything into line with it marginalises everything else.


I agree. Another way to deal with this problem would be to return Power Attack to its 3.0 status, but this only serves to make the Melee classes even less powerful than the casters. So I look for ways to make melee characters more powerful without resorting to giving them "spells" (like Tome of Battle seems to do)



By far the easiest way to make Two Weapon Fighting viable is tear down the Feat Wall and get rid of Off Hand penalties to Strength DB and allow Power attack to work with Light Weapons, as well as making the first Off Hand Attack part of a Standard Attack Action.

[snip]...I would grant Even Handed and Mobile Two Weapon Fighting to all Melee Classes (maybe all Classes) for free. Two Weapon Defence and Two Weapon Fighting I would combine into one Feat Tree, requiring four Feats altogether.
Skilful Defence is probably too silly, increased Armour Class is not really the answer in my opinion, but it is a possibility. Shield Block is my favoured solution to Shield problems at the moment...


Yeah, but if you do that, suddenly everyone will be fighting with two weapons (just like everyone seems to use greatswords nowadays).



...but here's a link to the latest Opposed Attack Roll Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44108), which is one of the best ways of modelling the advantages of having a Shield.

Thank you, this is interesting

Amphimir Míriel
2007-05-18, 04:31 PM
The Massive Two-Weapon Fighting Feat is pretty bad. The Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting from Comp. Adv. has the same benefits, but only needs Str 13 and Two-Weapon Fighting.

Thanks for the info, I don't have this book and didn't know... I wanted to err in the side of caution and avoid overpowering the feats. I will think about it and see if I can tone down the requirements


Why exactly are shields underpowered, and what do they have to do with full defense or combat expertise?

The main bonus of shields is the fact that they can be enchanted seperately from Armor, and therefore for significantly less cost.


Actually, you just described what is wrong with them... Shields, as per your comment, are not desirable by themselves... but only as a metagaming way to save on gp when getting AC enchantments.

I actually find that the "opposed attack roll to parry with your shield" mechanic Matthew linked to is what I was looking for (at least on regards to Sword and Board)