Dire Humans?

[ThinkMinty]

Did Pathfinder (or D&D, for that matter) ever do anything akin to a Dire Human?

[legomaster00156]

Well, there is the Dire Creature template, but that can explicitly only be applied to animals. The closest you'll get is an Advanced template human.

[Nifft]

Dire animals are larger, tougher, meaner versions of ordinary animals.

The dire human is usually just called "an adventurer".

[TheifofZ]

The dire human is usually just called "an adventurer".

The Wandering Murderhobos, dire humans?
Yeah, sounds about right to me.

[Doc_Maynot]

Or, depending on alignment a more fearsome template becomes available, the "Murderhobo"*

Edit: Stalker'd

[Greenish]

Eberron's Empty Vessel, arguably. It's Humanoid (Human) with the bonus feat, bonus skill points, but also with bonus power points and various skill bonuses (or something, I forget).

PF has the Pureblooded Azlanti from Golarion, who are basically identical to other humans except they gain +2 to all stats instead of picking one.

[Arbane]

It's not a legal template for them, since humans are Dire Halflings.

[Eldonauran]

Bigger, meaner and more feral looking humans?

Did you mean Giants?

:smallcool:

[ThinkMinty]

PF has the Pureblooded Azlanti from Golarion, who are basically identical to other humans except they gain +2 to all stats instead of picking one.

...can they be PCs? Equal parts curiosity and "+2 to all stats makes me want to know if I can"

[Vhaidara]

Not without GM fiat, on account of being extinct*

*: IIRC, there's like 3 still alive throughout Golarion. And the Runelords all use it for their base race, I think.

[atemu1234]

...can they be PCs? Equal parts curiosity and "+2 to all stats makes me want to know if I can"

Probably. They'd just have a higher than average amount of RP.

[Flickerdart]

There's a Feral template in Savage Species that works for the concept (although not specifically Dire).

[Nifft]

Probably. They'd just have a higher than average amount of RP.

So the punishment for having more power is that you also get more attention?

[atemu1234]

So the punishment for having more power is that you also get more attention?

(Wrong RP, or possibly wrong acronym. I don't play pathfinder a lot)

[Greenish]

"Such powerful humans can become player characters only with the permission of the GM", according to Inner Sea World Guide.

If you were to build a race like that (humanoid with selectable bonus feat, skill points and +2 to all scores), it'd come at 26 RP. Though you could make one with the same stats except +4 instead of +2 in one stat for just 25 points, which should tell you how well balanced the system is.

[Vhaidara]

So the punishment for having more power is that you also get more attention?

Race Points, not Roleplay. A rather poorly thought out system that Paizo published as the guidelines they use for making races. Also to demonstrate how they clearly give no ****s about internal consistency, since the elemental planetouched are all 7-8 RP compared to the human's 10, and could all easily have been brought up to snuff. Say, Oreads either getting Dwarven Step or a 30ft move speed. Because Medium with 20 and needing to spend a feat to avoid reduction in heavy armor is just stupid.

[Greenish]

Race Points, not Roleplay. A rather poorly thought out system that Paizo published as the guidelines they use for making races. Also to demonstrate how they clearly give no ****s about internal consistency, since the elemental planetouched are all 7-8 RP compared to the human's 10, and could all easily have been brought up to snuff. Say, Oreads either getting Dwarven Step or a 30ft move speed. Because Medium with 20 and needing to spend a feat to avoid reduction in heavy armor is just stupid.It's worse than that: if you were to make a race exactly like oreads, except actually following the rules of the Race Builder, they wouldn't have their movement speed reduced by heavy armour (because that's innate to having slow movement speed as a medium creature*).


*If dwarves actually had to pay for that ability, they'd go over even their current lofty 11 points.

[atemu1234]

"Such powerful humans can become player characters only with the permission of the GM", according to Inner Sea World Guide.

If you were to build a race like that (humanoid with selectable bonus feat, skill points and +2 to all scores), it'd come at 26 RP. Though you could make one with the same stats except +4 instead of +2 in one stat for just 25 points, which should tell you how well balanced the system is.

Yeah, the system sucks. But dura lex, sed lex.

Okay, more like fatuus lex, sed lex.

That should be D&D's slogan:
Fatuus Lex, Sed Lex (The law is stupid, but it is the law)

[Nifft]

Race Points, not Roleplay.
A-ha! Thanks.


(Wrong RP, or possibly wrong acronym. I don't play pathfinder a lot)
Apparently I play even less than you. :smallcool:

[Psyren]

There's a lot of races you could consider to be "Dire Humans." It all depends on what you consider makes someone "dire."

Pureblood Azlanti
Elans
Aasimar(/Lesser Aasimar/Scion of Humanity Aasimar)
Azurins
Silverbrow Humans

Even Human Paragon might qualify.

[Greenish]

One of the features of dire animals is that they have spikes all over (for whatever reason), so maybe Skarns are actually dire humans?

They also tend to have "a feral, prehistoric, or even demonic appearance", so the aforementioned Feral template probably has a good claim, as do Neanderthals.

[Flickerdart]

They also tend to have "a feral, prehistoric, or even demonic appearance", so the aforementioned Feral template probably has a good claim, as do Neanderthals.
Neanderthals are actually pretty decent as dire humans - they were bigger and stronger, had larger brains, better eyesight, etc. Unfortunately for them, all those goodies came with much higher energy requirements, so we were able to out-breed and out-starve them. :smallamused:

[ThinkMinty]

Neanderthals are actually pretty decent as dire humans - they were bigger and stronger, had larger brains, better eyesight, etc. Unfortunately for them, all those goodies came with much higher energy requirements, so we were able to out-breed and out-starve them. :smallamused:

So humans beat out Neanderthal with the power of anorexia and porking?

[Psyren]

So humans beat out Neanderthal with the power of anorexia and porking?

We had lower LA so we leveled up faster. We then put more points into Int and our offspring came out with more of that. Repeat for ni generations and voila

[EisenKreutzer]

Neanderthals are actually pretty decent as dire humans - they were bigger and stronger, had larger brains, better eyesight, etc. Unfortunately for them, all those goodies came with much higher energy requirements, so we were able to out-breed and out-starve them. :smallamused:

Isn't the current accepted theory that homo sapiens and homo neanderthalensis interbred, causing the neanderthal population to be subsumed into the human population rather than going extinct?

[Vhaidara]

So humans beat out Neanderthal with the power of anorexia and porking?

This is like, the only thing humans should have going for them.

I just got a really funny image of a version of human who works on Fire Emblem logic. Instead of leveling up, you pork someone, the kid shows up, and you retire while he takes over for you.

[Flickerdart]

Isn't the current accepted theory that homo sapiens and homo neanderthalensis interbred, causing the neanderthal population to be subsumed into the human population rather than going extinct?
I don't think so - it's contentious that we interbred at all, but even if we did, the % of neanderthal DNA in ours is very small.

[Greenish]

We then put more points into Int and our offspring came out with more of that.Are you proposing the inheritance of inherent bonuses, a form of Gygaxian Lamarckism?

[EisenKreutzer]

I don't think so - it's contentious that we interbred at all, but even if we did, the % of neanderthal DNA in ours is very small.

Some quick research via Wikipedia seems to support this.

[Psyren]

Are you proposing the inheritance of inherent bonuses, a form of Gygaxian Lamarckism?

That 8 int minimum for humans came from somewhere :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Feral neanderthal sounds like a decent-ish fit, maybe lose the fast healing.

[The Random NPC]

Are you proposing the inheritance of inherent bonuses, a form of Gygaxian Lamarckism?

Fun fact, Lemark was right... kind of (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics).

[Milo v3]

I just got a really funny image of a version of human who works on Fire Emblem logic. Instead of leveling up, you pork someone, the kid shows up, and you retire while he takes over for you.

.... I need to use this as default for one of my settings.... *Steals*

[Vhaidara]

.... I need to use this as default for one of my settings.... *Steals*

Just credit me as "random guy on the interwebz"

[Judge_Worm]

AFB, but that one race from RoS I forget the name of kinda fit. Also, knock Int down to 3 and apply dire template. Or just use MM Ape and refluff it as a wild dire human.

Feral and Neanderthal have already been mentioned.


Neanderthals are actually pretty decent as dire humans - they were bigger and stronger, had larger brains, better eyesight, etc. Unfortunately for them, all those goodies came with much higher energy requirements, so we were able to out-breed and out-starve them. :smallamused:

Frostburn Neanderthals are bigger than PHB Humans. But, H. neanderthals were shorter and stockier (more akin to PHB Dwarves) than H. sapiens.

[Greenish]

Feral Gargun from RoS is more like a dire goliath.

[Flickerdart]

Frostburn Neanderthals are bigger than PHB Humans. But, H. neanderthals were shorter and stockier (more akin to PHB Dwarves) than H. sapiens.
According to brief internetting, male neanderthals were on average 166cm tall. The average height of a modern man - with all the benefits of much better nutrition and so forth - is 170cm.

[Greenish]

According to brief internetting, male neanderthals were on average 166cm tall. The average height of a modern man - with all the benefits of much better nutrition and so forth - is 170cm.And while we're here, the average male heights of
PHB dwarf: 127 cm.
PHB human: 175 cm.
Frostburn neanderthal: 221 cm.

Unless I'm confusing myself converting archaic fantasy measurements to modern ones.

[grarrrg]

If you were to build a race like that (humanoid with selectable bonus feat, skill points and +2 to all scores), it'd come at 26 RP. Though you could make one with the same stats except +4 instead of +2 in one stat for just 25 points, which should tell you how well balanced the system is.

The PF race points system works OK as a rough estimate of power. 2 races within 5 points of each other will be roughly equivalent*, but if they are 10 or more points different it will show*.
I'd say it works about as well as the CR system...

*This, of course, assumes you aren't purposely trying to break the system, or make intentionally stupid races.

[Vhaidara]

The PF race points system works OK as a rough estimate of power. 2 races within 5 points of each other will be roughly equivalent*, but if they are 10 or more points different it will show*.
I'd say it works about as well as the CR system...

*This, of course, assumes you aren't purposely trying to break the system, or make intentionally stupid races.

*Looks at Human*
*Looks at Elemental Planetouched*

Nope, not seeing it.

[Milo v3]

*Looks at Human*
*Looks at Elemental Planetouched*

Nope, not seeing it.

Well he did put a disclaimer for "making intentionally stupid races." And it's hard for me to imagine people going "Yep, these are human level in power"

[Vhaidara]

Well he did put a disclaimer for "making intentionally stupid races." And it's hard for me to imagine people going "Yep, these are human level in power"

If it was the other way around (humans were weak), I could find it acceptable.

[ThinkMinty]

So far the Azlanti are winning. My opinion of the Dire Human is that it'd be sorta...Atlantis-folk.

[Milo v3]

If it was the other way around (humans were weak), I could find it acceptable.

Yeah, I mean humans + immortal beings is a decent enough reason to make a race more powerful than humans (see Aasimar).... making them weaker is just dumb :smallsigh:

[Psyren]

The Planetouched races are awesome if you ask me. Ifrit Ninja + Firesight + smoke bombs = full ranged sneak attack. Undines are great in aquatic campaigns, getting fast healing, amphibious and 30ft. blindsense in water. Oreads make great druids, clerics and monks. And Sylphs... okay, Sylphs suck, but 3 out of 4 ain't bad, and Wind Listener Wizard is neat (spontaneous divinations!)

[NightbringerGGZ]

The Planetouched races are awesome if you ask me. Ifrit Ninja + Firesight + smoke bombs = full ranged sneak attack. Undines are great in aquatic campaigns, getting fast healing, amphibious and 30ft. blindsense in water. Oreads make great druids, clerics and monks. And Sylphs... okay, Sylphs suck, but 3 out of 4 ain't bad, and Wind Listener Wizard is neat (spontaneous divinations!)

Oreads also make great Monks (UnMonks). Toss Crystalline Form on one and give her a vendetta against pigeons!

[Vhaidara]

So ifrits are food with one specific trick from one class?

Undine fast healing hardly counts, since it is extremely limited (2/level/day)

Again, my biggest complaint with Oreads is that they have 20ft move speed as a medium creature, and still have their speed reduced by armor. Mobility is one of the highest value points for me when I build characters. It's why I can't stand halflings.

I don't see any way that Oread is better than dwarf for any of those (maybe cleric, since channel wants some cha). The racial save bonus for dwarves is amazing, and a Cha hit is generally far preferable to a Dex hit.

[Psyren]

So ifrits are food with one specific trick from one class?

First off, what's wrong with being a good choice for one class? I'm not saying they're better than humans at everything - nobody is. Just like Tieflings make better Magi than Humans because of the tail, it doesn't mean Tieflings are better than humans in general. Why is that bad?

Second, no, Ninja is not the only class they're good at. Ifrit sorcerers can start with 22 Cha for instance, and Ifrit Oracles with Hypnotic and Heavens can lock down entire battlefields.


Undine fast healing hardly counts, since it is extremely limited (2/level/day)

Free healing is still free, and I see you skipped over the other traits I mentioned.


Again, my biggest complaint with Oreads is that they have 20ft move speed as a medium creature, and still have their speed reduced by armor. Mobility is one of the highest value points for me when I build characters. It's why I can't stand halflings.

Neither monks nor druids care about base speed though. Meanwhile +1 natural AC and +2 AC vs. rays is useful for monks.



I don't see any way that Oread is better than dwarf for any of those (maybe cleric, since channel wants some cha). The racial save bonus for dwarves is amazing, and a Cha hit is generally far preferable to a Dex hit.

Dwarves have better saves but being outsiders means there are some effects Oreads don't have to save against at all.

[Vhaidara]

If I don't mention something, that's concession of a point . I'm not going to try and argue that Undine aren't good for an aquatic game, Psyren. I'm stubborn, not stupid :smalltongue:

Natural armor is weaker than the point of AC you get from Dex, and since Oreads are working with a Dex penalty, I'd say they come out behind there, since you have +1 flat footed AC, -1 general touch AC, and +1 specifically vs Rays.

The typing easily cuts both ways. A dwarf monk can benefit from Enlarge Person, an Oread can't. The only time I can think of that type comes into play for those spells is the Charm/Dominate line: yes, those are nasty, but all the classes you mentioned have Wisdom as major stat (why we are discussing Oread vs Dwarf), and have good Will saves (UnMonk still has still mind, right?). I'd take the dwarf's +2 vs any spell, sla, or poison any day of the week.

[Psyren]

If I don't mention something, that's concession of a point . I'm not going to try and argue that Undine aren't good for an aquatic game, Psyren. I'm stubborn, not stupid :smalltongue:

Well, there's no way for me to know that unless you tell me :smalltongue:


Natural armor is weaker than the point of AC you get from Dex, and since Oreads are working with a Dex penalty, I'd say they come out behind there, since you have +1 flat footed AC, -1 general touch AC, and +1 specifically vs Rays.

Are you reading the right race? I show Oreads as +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, and –2 Charisma - no dex penalty there.



The typing easily cuts both ways. A dwarf monk can benefit from Enlarge Person, an Oread can't. The only time I can think of that type comes into play for those spells is the Charm/Dominate line: yes, those are nasty, but all the classes you mentioned have Wisdom as major stat (why we are discussing Oread vs Dwarf), and have good Will saves (UnMonk still has still mind, right?). I'd take the dwarf's +2 vs any spell, sla, or poison any day of the week.

There's also Hold Person,Daze, Ghoul Touch, plus some more got added in OA... I'd say the number of things that can mess with humanoids is greater than the things that benefit them, though admittedly Enlarge is a big benefit.
UnMonk has Still Mind but poor will saves, you need all the help you can get. Plus, if you take vows for more ki, you lose even that.

Besides, you're a strong rock-man, there's some cool factor there.

[Vhaidara]

Are they? For some reason, I thought I recalled them being +Con, +Wis, -Dex.

Been posting from my phone, harder to check my facts. And I haven't looked for a while since I'm stuck in PFS for my play time. It hurts too much to look at what I'll never get.

And yes I understand the cool factor. But I want a heavily armored rock man, and I don't want to be moving at literally half the speed of the rest of the party. I struggle hard enough to justify the movement penalty on 30ft races. When I'm already starting from behind, it gets even harder.

[Psyren]

Are they? For some reason, I thought I recalled them being +Con, +Wis, -Dex.

That sounds like Half-Giants or maybe Norals from DSP.



And yes I understand the cool factor. But I want a heavily armored rock man, and I don't want to be moving at literally half the speed of the rest of the party. I struggle hard enough to justify the movement penalty on 30ft races. When I'm already starting from behind, it gets even harder.

So wear Mithral Breastplate or something. Or again, be a monk or druid, two classes that are good choices for them anyway and have no speed issues at all. Hell, once whichever class you choose gets flight then land speed becomes completely irrelevant.

[DigoDragon]

Now I want to slap the Dire template on some human enemies, give the players guns, and tell them "Welcome to Fallout".

It sort of works I think.

[Vhaidara]

Psyren, I said heavily armored. In my lingo, that means I'm going for full plate. I don't think monk or druid fits pretty much anyone's image of heavily armored. No, being a t-rex doesn't count :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Psyren, I said heavily armored. In my lingo, that means I'm going for full plate. I don't think monk or druid fits pretty much anyone's image of heavily armored. No, being a t-rex doesn't count :smalltongue:

It should; T-Rexes get +6 natural AC and can wear Ice Armor or Wild Armor on top of that.

But nothing's stopping you from wearing full plate - increasing your speed is trivial.

[NightbringerGGZ]

The genie descended races could all benefit from some slight boosts, but the Oread is probably the best off of the bunch.

The attribute modifiers are great with +Str, +Wis and -Cha. Monks, Druids, Barbarians, Fighters, Rangers, War Priests, Clerics and some of the Occult classes would all love these stats. The Earth Affinity allows for a Sorcerer that gets away with a Cha penalty. It can be traded away for Fast Healing 2 that activated by acid damage, even if that damage is resisted. 2 HP per level as other similar abilities or for Crystaline Form. It can be swapped with Fertile Soil for the Verdant bloodline or Plant domain. The spell like ability can be traded for various options, including turning a 10 foot radius patch of ground into difficult terrain for minutes/level once per day.

Yes having to grab Dwarf Blooded if you wear Medium or Heavy armor is a silly feat tax. For most classes though, it isn't a significant deal over the long term.