Magic Items

[jabberwocky9]

What is the best way to allocate magic items?

Our DM, dare I say it, is a control freak. He comes up at times absurd magic items, weapons, armor, etc. for our characters which in most cases I don't want. I accept them of course. Don't want to agitate him.

Basically, I want to put together an argument that can be acceptable for us as characters to receive or obtain magic items.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The game's default assumption is that you can purchase magic items freely in town as long as the cost of the item is within the settlement's gp limit, as described on DMG pg137-138.

Likewise, you can sell any loot of any kind as long as the settlement has enough free cash to support your doing so, as described on the same pages.

For reasons I don't quite "get," a number of DM's actively dislike, and houserule against, this basic assumption.

[ComaVision]

For reasons I don't quite "get," a number of DM's actively dislike, and houserule against, this basic assumption.

I think that it's because it can be a lot harder to DM for a group that is more powerful or has more options.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think that it's because it can be a lot harder to DM for a group that is more powerful or has more options.

I'd love to believe it was that simple but a lot of these same DM's allow players to run clerics and wizards, unchanged. This flies directly in the face of that idea.

Worse, it was assumed that PC's would have free access to these items when they were designing the game's monsters and the CR system (flawed as it eventually turned out). Non-casting classes have a hard enough time remaining effective in mid to high level play without being cut off at the knees by having their items taken away.

[ComaVision]

I'd love to believe it was that simple but a lot of these same DM's allow players to run clerics and wizards, unchanged. This flies directly in the face of that idea.

Worse, it was assumed that PC's would have free access to these items when they were designing the game's monsters and the CR system (flawed as it eventually turned out). Non-casting classes have a hard enough time remaining effectiv in mid to high level play without being cut off at the knees by having their items taken away.

I absolutely agree but it's my thought that the same people that limit magic item access are also the ones that don't recognize caster supremacy. Two of my players were formerly in a group in the next town over where psionics and ToB are banned (obviously OP), wealth is low, and monks are awesome. This, obviously, isn't evidence that all magic with-holding DMs are like this but it has been my experience.

Also, it's very entertaining watching low-op players adjust to a mid to high-op group :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Many DMs, especially novices, haven't actually read the DMG, and don't know that the game expects characters to have a certain amount of wealth each level.

[RenaldoS]

The game's default assumption is that you can purchase magic items freely in town as long as the cost of the item is within the settlement's gp limit, as described on DMG pg 137-138.

Likewise, you can sell any loot of any kind as long as the settlement has enough free cash to support your doing so, as described on the same pages.

For reasons I don't quite "get," a number of DM's actively dislike, and houserule against, this basic assumption.

If you read the introduction to the magic item's chapter, it actually seems like the game's default assumption is that magic items are primarily found as treasure saying "they are gleaned from the hoards of conquered monsters, taken from fallen foes, and sometimes crafted by the characters themselves." Additionally, all the examples given on page 137 are of "mundane" items such as longswords and gems. Sure, a liberal reading of the rules could mean that you should find any low-level scroll in any hamlet, but I think it is pretty clear that those pages are meant as rules of thumb for the DM.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you read the introduction to the magic item's chapter, it actually seems like the game's default assumption is that magic items are primarily found as treasure saying "they are gleaned from the hoards of conquered monsters, taken from fallen foes, and sometimes crafted by the characters themselves." Additionally, all the examples given on page 137 are of "mundane" items such as longswords and gems. Sure, a liberal reading of the rules could mean that you should find any low-level scroll in any hamlet, but I think it is pretty clear that those pages are meant as rules of thumb for the DM.

On, literally, the next page, under handling magic items, "A single overpowering item can ruin a whole campaign -- but if the PC's don't get enough magic items, they won't be powerful enough to deal with the challenges that have been balanced for characters of their level." It then refers to the treasure tables which, when used as intended, yield -more- treasure than the WBL table says characters should have. Also, the WBL guidelines say quite explicitly that characters should have near the listed value and that most of it would be comprised of magic items.

The blasted MIC even associates items of a certain range of values with the character level by which such items should be available.

It could not be clearer that magic items' free availability is expected short of putting in triple sized bolded font at the start of the magic item chapter.

[RenaldoS]

I don't disagree. The DMG makes very clear that players NEED magic items. My point is that the DMG implies that the way they get those items is from adventuring, not going to a magic-mart.

[Elkad]

On, literally, the next page, under handling magic items, "A single overpowering item can ruin a whole campaign -- but if the PC's don't get enough magic items, they won't be powerful enough to deal with the challenges that have been balanced for characters of their level." It then refers to the treasure tables which, when used as intended, yield -more- treasure than the WBL table says characters should have. Also, the WBL guidelines say quite explicitly that characters should have near the listed value and that most of it would be comprised of magic items.

The blasted MIC even associates items of a certain range of values with the character level by which such items should be available.

It could not be clearer that magic items' free availability is expected short of putting in triple sized bolded font at the start of the magic item chapter.

I disagree. Characters need appropriate wealth (mostly in magic items), but nowhere does it say they need a magic mart that stocks everything they want in the precise color they desire.
If the DM is giving out useful gear in proper quantities, close enough.

[OldTrees1]

The best way, in my opinion as a DM, is to have tailored random loot tables(everything on them is useful to the PCs but not overly tailored to individual PCs) and have a magic mart calibrated to your players (more abuse = less available).

This works in 2 ways:
1) It allows the DM to introduce items the Players did not know about.
2) It allows the PCs to trade in gear they choose not to use.


I disagree. Characters need appropriate wealth (mostly in magic items), but nowhere does it say they need a magic mart that stocks everything they want in the precise color they desire.
If the DM is giving out useful gear in proper quantities, close enough.
I presume you recognize that magic mart includes markets that are not "go nuts!"? Even just having an old blacksmith is a great step towards not messing up your game's balance.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I disagree. Characters need appropriate wealth (mostly in magic items), but nowhere does it say they need a magic mart that stocks everything they want in the precise color they desire.
If the DM is giving out useful gear in proper quantities, close enough.

At the same time, it never says they -shouldn't- be able to buy them in a sufficiently large settlement. The GP caps section of the DMG doesn't mention any sort of restriction on what can be bought or sold and if adventurers the world over are bringing stuff they can't use, personally, out of dungeons and selling them off in towns then why shouldn't they be available?

It's basic economics. There's an extant supply (sold loot), producers (crafting spellcasters), and a consumer base providing demand (adventurers). It's only natural for there to be a market.

A one-stop magic mart is absurd but a broad selection of items distributed amongst various guilds, confederacies, academies, individual sellers, and government supply depots is certainly reasonable.

[Elkad]

The best way, in my opinion as a DM, is to have tailored random loot tables(everything on them is useful to the PCs but not overly tailored to individual PCs) and have a magic mart calibrated to your players (more abuse = less available).

This works in 2 ways:
1) It allows the DM to introduce items the Players did not know about.
2) It allows the PCs to trade in gear they choose not to use.


I presume you recognize that magic mart includes markets that are not "go nuts!"? Even just having an old blacksmith is a great step towards not messing up your game's balance.

Sure. Generally I'll have stuff available that is a level or two behind and of the more generic sort to soak up excess cash. If you want to layer in a Ring of Protection or Cloak of Resistance, you can likely find one. A Decanter of Endless Water or Ioun Stone? Not likely. The top-tier items my players have will almost always be treasure.

Why let the Paladin just buy his Holy Avenger at the shop, when you can make him quest for it?

[OldTrees1]

Sure. Generally I'll have stuff available that is a level or two behind and of the more generic sort to soak up excess cash. If you want to layer in a Ring of Protection or Cloak of Resistance, you can likely find one. A Decanter of Endless Water or Ioun Stone? Not likely. The top-tier items my players have will almost always be treasure.

Why let the Paladin just buy his Holy Avenger at the shop, when you can make him quest for it?

Reminder: It is not just to soak up excess cash, but also to soak up unwanted loot.

With that in mind your system is sufficient.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sure. Generally I'll have stuff available that is a level or two behind and of the more generic sort to soak up excess cash. If you want to layer in a Ring of Protection or Cloak of Resistance, you can likely find one. A Decanter of Endless Water or Ioun Stone? Not likely. The top-tier items my players have will almost always be treasure.

A fair enough approach. Weapons and defensive +X items are the absolutely necessary items anyway.


Why let the Paladin just buy his Holy Avenger at the shop, when you can make him quest for it?

Conversely, why make him quest for it when he could just buy it? Or even have it given to him by his church for outstanding service (and regular tithes/donations)?

[torrasque666]

Conversely, why make him quest for it when he could just buy it? Or even have it given to him by his church for outstanding service (and regular tithes/donations)?
Because when its bought or given, its merely a Holy Avenger. If he has to work for it, its his Holy Avenger. There's a lot more value to them because of it. Makes them feel like they earned, and deserve it.

[Curmudgeon]

Whether you want particular magic items, and whether they make sense as treasure, are two different things. If you're all Small/Medium PCs and you fight Large enemies, all their armor and weapons should be of Large size. That's not being mean to you; it's just the life of an adventurer. Similarly, if you're attacked by Valenar Elves, it's not a DM plot for them to be wielding double scimitars (a type of exotic weapon you very likely wouldn't be proficient with); it's just them using their particular racial weapon.

Alternatively, maybe it's just your DM using a peculiar random treasure table.

[ThinkMinty]

Conversely, why make him quest for it when he could just buy it? Or even have it given to him by his church for outstanding service (and regular tithes/donations)?

If you give it to him a level or two early, the quest is cooler. If he should have it by now, putting roadblocks up is a little meh, and putting more than two sessions of roadblocks up might be harsh.

[Elkad]

Because when its bought or given, its merely a Holy Avenger. If he has to work for it, its his Holy Avenger. There's a lot more value to them because of it. Makes them feel like they earned, and deserve it.


If you give it to him a level or two early, the quest is cooler. If he should have it by now, putting roadblocks up is a little meh, and putting more than two sessions of roadblocks up might be harsh.

Yup. He's earned it. And yes he may get it early. Maybe even really early, with it's powers limited.


Whether you want particular magic items, and whether they make sense as treasure, are two different things. If you're all Small/Medium PCs and you fight Large enemies, all their armor and weapons should be of Large size. That's not being mean to you; it's just the life of an adventurer. Similarly, if you're attacked by Valenar Elves, it's not a DM plot for them to be wielding double scimitars (a type of exotic weapon you very likely wouldn't be proficient with); it's just them using their particular racial weapon.

Alternatively, maybe it's just your DM using a peculiar random treasure table.

Sure, their regular gear will be giant sized. But plenty of items are either "size doesn't matter", or reasonable for them to have picked up at random (off other dead adventurers) and be too useful to just toss out (remember, no magic marts, so the giants can't just trade it in either). A mis-sized Frost Brand tossed in the larder is a good way for those giants to keep their beer cold. The ogre shaman can be wearing a small cloak of resistance. Having it fit him like a shawl doesn't change the nature of it. Yes, there will be gear the PCs can't use as well (or gear I thought they wouldn't want). That's effectively cash when I plan it, though sometimes they surprise me.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Because when its bought or given, its merely a Holy Avenger. If he has to work for it, its his Holy Avenger. There's a lot more value to them because of it. Makes them feel like they earned, and deserve it.

Bah. If I earned the gold to buy it, I earned it and it's mine. I bled and sweat for that gold and nobody is taking away from me what I spent it on.

Sentimental attachment achieved.

Also, how is a -gift- from your -church- not something you get seriously attached to as a faith-based caster?

Nevermind sentimental value is -wholly- subjective and can't be forced by a DM.

[Troacctid]

My usual strategy is for my worlds to include NPC Artificers who will take commissions, because, like, it just makes sense that that would be a thing that happens. (A Magic Mart that carries a stock of every magic item makes a lot less sense, because imagine the crazy amounts of security you'd need to have, like, I mean, wow.)

I've toyed with the idea of having players make Gather Information checks (DC 20 + item's CL, and you can take 10) to find out where they can buy a given item, with a successful check meaning you can purchase the item in town, and a failed check meaning you can't. This would represent magic items being scattered across the stocks of many different shops, markets, and traveling merchants.

[Jowgen]

I believe it is an IC matter. Any character should possess a reasonably in-depth knowledge of how their abilities work. The rogue knows what his Evasion works against, the Paladin knows how his smite works, and so on. The question is: does a character know about the sort of magic items that would improve his existing abilities, or give him new ones?

If the local magic-mart has a big catalog of items and their effects, then yes.
If the character has a decent modifier on some relevant knowledges, then I would also argue yes.

If either of these two apply, the said character would actively pursue the acquisition of said items, and a DM should allow them to do so. In a high-magic setting, this would be rather easy, since people who sell magic gear to adventurers would try and keep supply up. In a low magic setting, this would be harder, and might require things like gather information checks, talking to important/wealthy NPCs to get them to find/order the item for the character, and so on.

But, if neither of the two apply, the character wouldn't know that there is an item he can afford, should have, and should thus seek out. It is in these situations that characters simply work with whatever magical treasure they can find.

So yeah, I suggest looking at the characters you have in party and make an argument why they would IC know about the items you want them to get. If you have IC motivation, bring it in role-play wise as needed, and then afterwards talk to your DM about how you're planning to pursue the desired acquisition in his setting, so he can prepare. That should keep him happy and make preparations for you to be able to get what'cha need. If he decides to make a quest out of it, then that's that.

EDIT: If all else fails, go to Sigil. Trade one of your unwanted items for a suitable spell, if need be. It is the god-damn centre of the multiverse where everyone mingles, there is virtually nothing you can't get in Sigil.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I've toyed with the idea of having players make Gather Information checks (DC 20 + item's CL, and you can take 10) to find out where they can buy a given item, with a successful check meaning you can purchase the item in town, and a failed check meaning you can't. This would represent magic items being scattered across the stocks of many different shops, markets, and traveling merchants.

Isn't that already how it works? I've always operated under the assumption that the buying process works like that, it's only abstracted because roleplaying 10 conversations with different shopkeepers that basically amount to "I don't have (item) in stock, good sir, but you might try Ribald's Arms & Armor down in Castle Street." isn't what most groups consider fun. They want to get their loot sold, buy their new gear and go back to adventuring.

For custom weapon & armor enchantments the usual go-to is the local wizards guild, which can be found in every mid-sized or larger city. Almost all of those can do basic +1-3 crap, but for higher powered weapons you'll need a guild in a bigger city, as fits into the guidelines for maximum prices according to size.

[Troacctid]

Isn't that already how it works? I've always operated under the assumption that the buying process works like that, it's only abstracted because roleplaying 10 conversations with different shopkeepers that basically amount to "I don't have (item) in stock, good sir, but you might try Ribald's Arms & Armor down in Castle Street." isn't what most groups consider fun. They want to get their loot sold, buy their new gear and go back to adventuring.

Normally, the only way you can find any magic item of your choice via a Gather Information check is if you're a Spinemeld Warrior.

[Curmudgeon]

Normally, the only way you can find any magic item of your choice via a Gather Information check is if you're a Spinemeld Warrior.
Well, there's also the option to use Gather Information to find an NPC spellcaster who can go to the merchant district and cast Locate Object for you. It's guaranteed to work if the DM favors your search. :smallwink:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Bah. If I earned the gold to buy it, I earned it and it's mine. I bled and sweat for that gold and nobody is taking away from me what I spent it on.

Sentimental attachment achieved.

Also, how is a -gift- from your -church- not something you get seriously attached to as a faith-based caster?

Nevermind sentimental value is -wholly- subjective and can't be forced by a DM.

Didn't think of this earlier, extending it here.

On the note of weapons that the character is significantly attached to, there are options for that; ancestral relic, a dip in OA samurai for ancestral daisho, the kensai PrC, weapons of legacy, and the bonded weapon variant in DMG2. If you want the player to have a special connection with their weapon, use/suggest any of these instead of forcing them to rely on luck or your generosity to get an extra meaningful item.

[Andezzar]

Yup. He's earned it. And yes he may get it early. Maybe even really early, with it's powers limited.If the powers are limited it is not a holy avenger, much less his holy avenger. It is just a +1 longsword (or whatever you limit the powers to). Self-upgrading items (unfortunately) are not RAW. Magic-Mart however is, well unless the world only has small villages. The DMG says that goods up to a specified value are generally available in each settlement. The DMG also give the DM leeway to modify the availability, but making the exception the rule, is not intended:
Every community has a gold piece limit based on its size and population. The gold piece limit (see Table 5–2) is an indicator of the price of the most expensive item available in that community. Nothing that costs more than a community’s gp limit is available for purchase in that community. Anything having a price under that limit is most likely available, whether it be mundane or magical. While exceptions are certainly possible (a boomtown near a newly discovered mine, a farming community impoverished after a prolonged drought), these exceptions are temporary; all communities will conform to the norm over time.


Didn't think of this earlier, extending it here.

On the note of weapons that the character is significantly attached to, there are options for that; ancestral relic, a dip in OA samurai for ancestral daisho, the kensai PrC, weapons of legacy, and the bonded weapon variant in DMG2. If you want the player to have a special connection with their weapon, use/suggest any of these instead of forcing them to rely on luck or your generosity to get an extra meaningful item.Suggesting is fine, forcing them to spend feats or take certain classes isn't. Also i don't think you should force the characters to be attached to certain weapons. It is the job of the character's player not the DM's to decide what that character is attached to. He might become attached to that sword that the character "liberated" from a dragon's hoard, but he might just as well only care about the monetarily worthless teddybear that is the sole reminder of his daughter whom the dragon ate previously.

[RenaldoS]

Why does everyone keep quoting Pg. 137 as evidence for magic-marts? That section is about randomly generating towns quickly, not that towns ought to be that way. In the context of the chapter, it's pretty clear that the existence of shops and other NPCs is purely within the DM's conception of the campaign world.

[Andezzar]

That is not wrong, but magic mart is expected to exist in randomly generated settlements. If the DM does not include them in his handcrafted settlements he needs to communicate this houserule to the players. They can then decide whether they want to play in such a world.

Form a RAW perspective the section I quotes says "Every community has a gold piece limit based on its size and population." Not just every randomly created community.

Whether it is through magic mart or some other mechanism, the game runs under the assumption that the PCs have certain items, if they don't there will be less fun for everyone.

Some players prefer their characters to loot corpses and use what they can get others prefer to customize their gear. If the vision of the players and DM don't match up there will be problems. Buying stuff can lead to much fewer shenanigans than having a PC craft the items.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why does everyone keep quoting Pg. 137 as evidence for magic-marts? That section is about randomly generating towns quickly, not that towns ought to be that way. In the context of the chapter, it's pretty clear that the existence of shops and other NPCs is purely within the DM's conception of the campaign world.

In a fairly sizable world the DM is -not- going to generate every single settlement in the world. Therefore, most of a world's settlements will be randomly generated using these rules. Because this is so, most settlements will have whatever items, up to the GP limits. If your "special snowflake" towns don't, they are in the severe minority.

Even if you don't want to accept that line of reasoning, the cited rules are still extremely telling in what the game's design expectations are, unless you're going to contend that these rules were never meant to be used. Deviating from these expectations is fine, if it's done carefully and knowingly, but it -is- a deviation. Hell's bells man, the random treasure tables give you nearly double what it would take to make your next level's WBL during the course of a level's worth of adventuring in no small part -because- it's expected you'll sell most of it for half value.

Seriously, you don't have to like it, you don't have to use it, but you do have to be willfully blind not to see it when you've examined all the relevant factors.

@Andrezzar:

I fully agree that the DM shouldn't be trying to shoehorn his ideas about what is or should be special to them onto the PC's. The PC's are the only characters under the player's absolute control and it's a real D-bag move to try and limit or otherwise undercut this fact.

[jiriku]

Many people disdain it because they "don't want to lose XP," but I've found that having every caster in the party take one or two item-creation feats is an excellent solution for this problem. You sell the garbage magic that you get at half-price, craft new items at half price, and the end result is that near-100% of your WBL is losslessly translated into the perfect gear to suit your characters. When your loot is cash, you can convert that into magic items at a rate of 2-for-1. It takes a little advanced planning to ensure that you'll have the prerequisite spells, feats, and time that you need, but hey, planning and teamwork is why adventurers work together in the first place.

The specter of "lost xp" is a bogeyman that has very little substance to it. Crafting doesn't permit you to spend more than 40 xp per day. If the xp cost for crafting is distributed evenly across the casters, you'll rarely even be one level behind and when you are behind you'll catch up almost immediately, because from 4th level onward, being one level behind increases your xp gain by about 10% -- one game session of bonus xp makes up for a week or two of crafting.

[Optimator]

When I DM at least 80% of the loot I give out is tailored to the party. The rest is random. It's so classic D&D to have random loot I can't give it up completely.

[Andezzar]

Many people disdain it because they "don't want to lose XP," but I've found that having every caster in the party take one or two item-creation feats is an excellent solution for this problem. You sell the garbage magic that you get at half-price, craft new items at half price, and the end result is that near-100% of your WBL is losslessly translated into the perfect gear to suit your characters. When your loot is cash, you can convert that into magic items at a rate of 2-for-1. It takes a little advanced planning to ensure that you'll have the prerequisite spells, feats, and time that you need, but hey, planning and teamwork is why adventurers work together in the first place.

The specter of "lost xp" is a bogeyman that has very little substance to it. Crafting doesn't permit you to spend more than 40 xp per day. If the xp cost for crafting is distributed evenly across the casters, you'll rarely even be one level behind and when you are behind you'll catch up almost immediately, because from 4th level onward, being one level behind increases your xp gain by about 10% -- one game session of bonus xp makes up for a week or two of crafting.Yeah crafting yourself is great, even without all the tricks of reducing gold and XP cost.

I'm really surprised that people think that having someone make a desired magic item, or simply having it in stock, is too powerful, but don't mind crafters.

[jabberwocky9]

Good thread guys. I'm not to keen on "magic marts" but I don't oppose them. So what I gather here is that however kind of campaign the group wants to run would be feasible to gathering magic items accordingly to the group or individual players cleared conscience of receiving them as long it's been made clear to everyone and it's acceptable.

The problem I have is that the DM homebrews magic items and allotted to players assuming it would be cool for them. My example is that I had characters I wanted to focus on specific types of magic and receiving these items changed the direction of my characters' focus. I know, I can say I don't want that and explain why.

I'm thinking maybe something close to a set "law" with characters obtaining magic according their wealth and level as said in the DMG. Should DM's option characters to earn them or buy them? I'm looking for ideas that can balance the agreement with the DM and players where it's not too easy but not difficult to obtain items.

My idea would be according to wealth by level (DMG 135) would be the limit but I don't know how it would work as far as purchasing or earning (quest, etc.) specific items. I definitely want to get away from homebrew items that are assumed "made for a character".

[Kelb_Panthera]

Like I mentioned upthread. If the DM wants special, meaningful items to be a thing, there are options available and he can work -with- the players rather than on their characters.

Any already extant item should be available for purchase as long as it's within the settlement's gp limit. The DM can control availability somewhat by simply having the party out in the boonies, where towns tend to be smaller, and arrange things so that frequent returns to town are difficult.

Ultimately, if it gets too unbearable, the players can take this decision out of his hands to a certain extent by learning to craft items for themselves.

Bottom line: A DM that's forcing you to work around him, rather than working with you, is doing it wrong.

[Andezzar]

I'm thinking maybe something close to a set "law" with characters obtaining magic according their wealth and level as said in the DMG. Should DM's option characters to earn them or buy them? I'm looking for ideas that can balance the agreement with the DM and players where it's not too easy but not difficult to obtain items.

My idea would be according to wealth by level (DMG 135) would be the limit but I don't know how it would work as far as purchasing or earning (quest, etc.) specific items. I definitely want to get away from homebrew items that are assumed "made for a character".If your players know the system a bit, ask them what items they want for their characters, and use a mixture of magic mart, quest rewards and loot to give it to them. Also keep in mind that the loot should be fitting to the corpse not the PCs. Another way to give the PCs loot that does not fit the monsters is to have them find corpses of other adventurers.

Also most likely not all possible combinations of enchantments will be in stock and upgrading is cheaper than selling the old and getting a new item. So if the PCs want to have an item made for the character, they will have to part with it for some time at least. In the man time they might have to resort to some stuff they found. Maybe they will even like it.

What don't you like about PCs going to some caster and commissioning for example a +1 valorous wounding Cold Iron Greatsword? You have interactions with NPCs and possibly even a plot hook.

[Rubik]

A one-stop magic mart is absurd but a broad selection of items distributed amongst various guilds, confederacies, academies, individual sellers, and government supply depots is certainly reasonable.Along with a thriving business in knowing who has what and sending buyers to sellers, like a pseudo-medieval Ye'Bay.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The problem I have is that the DM homebrews magic items and allotted to players assuming it would be cool for them. My example is that I had characters I wanted to focus on specific types of magic and receiving these items changed the direction of my characters' focus. I know, I can say I don't want that and explain why.

Tell then about your plans for your character? It sounds like they're trying to tailor cool loot for you, so I suspect they'd appreciate more info.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Along with a thriving business in knowing who has what and sending buyers to sellers, like a pseudo-medieval Ye'Bay.

Basically, yeah.

Here's a more detailed post I made on the matter years ago.


I'm with the crowd saying a stockpile of highly valuable magical items all in a 'shop' doesn't make any sense.

You can get minor magic items (as in DMG table 7-27) by going to one of a number of local guilds, unions, or confederacies or even the odd noble house, depending on what exactly it is you're looking for; e.g. the mercanary companies have surplus arms and armor, usually looted from dungeons or off of targets, to supplement funding from jobs, likewise with the thieves guild for your more larcenous tools but not the loot because they have to fence that stuff asap to actually make a profit, the exploration confederacy sells items useful for travel and exploration as well as bits and bobs from the latest expedition that they haven't traded away yet, and the wizard's tower or temple of the god of commerce or artifice will have a broad selection of a bit of everything as well as the tools of the spellcasting trade and can have initiate members craft items on request. None of them will have a standing stockpile though, only a few, mostly random items that they're more likely to trade than to sell.

A +1 weapon is worth 40 trade-bars worth of gold. Nobody except money changers, trading companies, and governments traffic in that kind of cash. The above mentioned companies and guilds will -trade- you their goods for your loot and old equipment and will accept cash if you've got it, but -none- of them will give you cash for your crap unless it's something that they'll have a serious use for. They're going to immediately sell your old stuff to one or another trading company for cash for their own use.

The trading companies don't keep anything at the local office at all and don't do trade in minor items with individuals from the general public. They facilitate the exchange of those goods between the various companies and guilds and supply the governments with items in quantity immensely faster than the governments' crafters can make them. They will, however, deal with individuals for the exchange of intermediate and major magic items as brokers.

The only shops that actually keep a stockpile of magical goods are potion brewers. They don't worry about thieves because their whole stock is labeled in code, the key to which is either stored somewhere very secure after hours or only exists in the shop owner's head. There's also the factor of potions being pretty much unsellable by anyone but the guy who makes them. This is because there's no way to know if the potion you're being sold second-hand is what the seller says it is because he almost certainly didn't make it and if he stole it he might not even know what it is. If you rob a potion maker's shop the best you're going to get is a couple scrolls of spells that aren't on the shopkeeper's list, maybe a schema of a spell for a particularly popular potion, and a crap-ton of potions that you'll have to identify and can't sell. You might also get a few alchemical items, but noone cares about that.

None of that is intended to change anything in the mechanics, of course. It's just an explanation of how the GP caps and free trade of magic items could make sense to me.

[frost890]

What is the best way to allocate magic items?

Our DM, dare I say it, is a control freak. He comes up at times absurd magic items, weapons, armor, etc. for our characters which in most cases I don't want. I accept them of course. Don't want to agitate him.

Basically, I want to put together an argument that can be acceptable for us as characters to receive or obtain magic items.

I have two things to try and point out on this.
First with the magic items is he just rolling on the tables to find items for you?

The second is this. If you have Items that you do not want can you sell, trade, barter or use those items to brake down and create new ones? (think artificer ability for using items to make new ones.) You can use some of the items to trade and get a discount on the XXX you REALLY want. If you have a adamantium full plate of +3 and your meat tank is a Barbarian can you con them in to trading to get a tattoo of bark skin and a big fing Ax +3?

[Deophaun]

To me, the magic mart is just a big abstraction. No one is selling a +3 sword for 18,000 gp. Instead, this is the money needed to track down rumors to a hidden treasure, hire a group of adventurers to clean out a kobold den and bring you the magical seal that unlocks it, then fund the expedition to the mountain that reveals the ancient treasure you seek. The tasks themselves are actually well below the CR for your heroic character, so we don't play them out. That, and I also have cooler, campaign stuff to run for the benefit of all the other players.

[tiercel]

On the one hand, maintaining even minimal verisimilitude seems imply at least occasional use of downtime between adventures. If your Heroes have just saved the pigs of Pigtown (population: 7 Commoner pig-farmer families) from the pig-eating Pigovore, the chances of them taking their hard-won loot to Ye Olde General Store in a town that has never been visited before by any wizard whatsoever and just "happen" to be able to purchase 1st-level scrolls of Elminster's Obscurata, Gandalf's Grand Gaseous Inhibitor, and Summon Pork I should be somewhere in the neighborhood of the odds of every molecule of air in their lungs simultaneously quantum-tunneling to the outsides of their non-masterwork studded leather armor. (Presumably, Our Heroes will just have to send word from the General Store to a guy who knows a guy who knows a third cousin's aunt's pig's grandfather's adopted niece-in-law's acquaintance who can pass word on to Bob the Itinerant Merchant, who arrives 2d6 PC Fort saves vs pulled pork later.)

On the other hand, "D&D economics" is as about a sane and rational phenomenon as "D&D physics"; forget MAGIC, your BBEG in a world with a modicum of market forces could just be some guy who pays informants to let him know any time Heroes are returning triumphant from a dragon's lair, bets everything he can borrow on short-term short-sell gold and silver futures, and corners the commodity markets with his exponentially-growing wealth as hyperinflation kicks in and the currency-based economy collapses back into a barter-based system in which the BBEG has seized control of every major commodity mode of production.

Good times.

[MyrPsychologist]

Game balance presumes that the players have access to magic items and the capacity to buy magic items that they actually want. In addition to this; many builds depend on the existence of magic items in order to really function in a meaningful way.

Because of this I have never understood why some DMs will remove this capacity from their players or make them jump through excessive hoops in order to get the basic things that they need to function. Let me roleplay something more interesting instead of haggling. Let me hunt rumors related to the plot, not rumors about where to find a specific magic item I actually need. Keep it within the stated rules for what should be available in the settlement but I don't see a justification for much more.

[jabberwocky9]

Like I mentioned upthread. If the DM wants special, meaningful items to be a thing, there are options available and he can work -with- the players rather than on their characters.

Any already extant item should be available for purchase as long as it's within the settlement's gp limit. The DM can control availability somewhat by simply having the party out in the boonies, where towns tend to be smaller, and arrange things so that frequent returns to town are difficult.

Ultimately, if it gets too unbearable, the players can take this decision out of his hands to a certain extent by learning to craft items for themselves.

Bottom line: A DM that's forcing you to work around him, rather than working with you, is doing it wrong.

Totally agree with said statement "Bottom line: A DM that's forcing you to work around him, rather than working with you, is doing it wrong."

...and this is the case of our "control freak DM". Player's should definitely have more responsibility of their characters.

[Fouredged Sword]

In my games there is generally no magic mart. There ARE, on the other hand, NPC artificers. These guys make the really valuable stuff. If it's worth more than 2-3000gp, you are looking at commissioning it from someone. To find something for sale in a city, it is likely +1 weapons or some other such REALLY generic stuff.

It's not that magic is rare per say, just that nobody in their right mind tries to run a shop with hundreds of thousands of gold worth of stuff sitting around. Nobody in the business of selling stuff has that kind of capitol. They would retire to a life of booze and loose women. Everything works on commission. You pay half up front and half when the job is done. An artificer has maybe 6 or so large jobs a year between cranking out potions and scrolls.

You can't rob a magic shop and get more than a little gold, some crafting supplies, and some potions and scrolls.

I find the players think about their equipment more when they have to start the buying process 2-3 weeks in advance.