PDA

View Full Version : The right choice for this group?



lotofsnow
2007-05-18, 02:31 PM
A few weeks ago, I posted on here requesting help with my 1st Level Wizard. I received much help, and I sincerely appreciate it. However, the class selections of the fellow members of my group have been determined, so that Wizard doesn't seem as appealing. Here's the make-up:

Monk - played by a D&D newbie
Cleric - played by a D&D newbie who is more interested in blasting than healing, buffing, or meleeing
Noble (Dragonlance core class) - played by a D&D veteran

That leaves me. Not a veteran, but not a newbie either. I played a campaign as a Favored Soul/Dread Necromancer (I know, not an optimized combination) for about 6 months. I also do my homework and spend too much time looking up D&D type stuff online/in source books. Like I mentioned above, my plan was to be a Wizard. But now that I know what the other's are playing, I'm not so sure if that would be a good idea.

So, what I'm tending towards is Duskblade(PHB2). I know that Duskblades are generally recommended for the "fifth spot" in a well-rounded party, but I don't know another way to fill the rolls this party is lacking. We still won't have a trapfinder, but I'm hoping the Noble or the Monk will decide to take a level or two in Rogue.

Here are my die rolls, which, as you can see, are pretty good. Got lucky I guess:

18, 17, 17, 14, 13, 13

My DM intends to run a few one-off style adventures just to make sure people are comfortable with the rules, characters, etc.

Edit: We haven't started yet, if that matters. We will be starting on Tuesday.

Behold_the_Void
2007-05-18, 02:33 PM
I say stick with Wizard, that party needs a primary arcanist more than it needs a frontliner (which the Monk and Cleric can do). Throw those 17's into Dex and Con and you're good to go.

I noticed your cleric is more into blasting, but I still say go with the wizard. I'm assuming the Noble is a rogue-like class, correct?

lotofsnow
2007-05-18, 02:37 PM
I say stick with Wizard, that party needs a primary arcanist more than it needs a frontliner (which the Monk and Cleric can do). Throw those 17's into Dex and Con and you're good to go.

You're probably right. I was concerned as I didn't know how well Monks are as frontliners, and I know the Cleric doesn't have any interest in being in melee much.

lotofsnow
2007-05-18, 02:52 PM
I noticed your cleric is more into blasting, but I still say go with the wizard. I'm assuming the Noble is a rogue-like class, correct?

Heh, no. He gets an "Inspire Confidence" feature at level 2, that buffs party members for 5 rounds if the observe him speaking for a full round. Also, he can call in "Favors" from other nobles, I guess, once per week. Whatever that means. So, it is kind of mixture of a weak bard and an aristocrat.

goat
2007-05-18, 02:54 PM
Wait, they want to play a pure blaster, and they chose cleric?

Edit - Saw what Nobles are...

I'd consider the option of wand using rogue, if it weren't for your lack of front liners.

Errm, Druid? Animal companion as a melee fighter?

lotofsnow
2007-05-18, 02:58 PM
Wait, they want to play a pure blaster, and they chose cleric?

Don't get me started.

Dark_Wind
2007-05-18, 02:59 PM
You're probably right. I was concerned as I didn't know how well Monks are as frontliners, and I know the Cleric doesn't have any interest in being in melee much.

Monks are OK fighters, but they won't have the best damage output. I also wouldn't count on him staying in one place and tanking. Monks are best if they keep moving.

Clerics, by the way, are all kinds of phail at blasting. They do it far worse than Wizards do, and blasting is a bad idea even for arcanists. Just FYI.

I agree your party needs a full arcane caster, so Wizard is probably your best bet. Really, with the right spells, you can overcome most deficiencies in your party composition. Druid might not be a bad idea, either. You can take up the meleeist/healing slack where your self-gimped cleric is lacking.

lotofsnow
2007-05-18, 03:06 PM
Errm, Druid? Animal companion as a melee fighter?

What's a good animal companion to use as a tank at 1st level?

Jacob Orlove
2007-05-18, 03:06 PM
If you're really concerned about the lack of trapfinding and related skills, you could play a Beguiler (PHB 2). They have a more focused spell list (the broken stuff isn't on it), but you have spontaneous access to all your spells, and a bunch of skills to compliment Int-based casting. You'll be casting a lot of illusion and enchantment spells, and can only force Will saves, but you do get some solid buffs in the mid levels (Haste, Displacement, Freedom of Movement), and you can always UMD (class skill!) a wand of Enlarge Person to help out the melee people.

Edit: Wolf is your best bet for a first level companion, unless you can get a Riding Dog that's trained for war. The trip ability on both is very strong.

Orak
2007-05-18, 04:16 PM
I would lean towards a druid with the mix that you have. You have healing potential in the cleric, but if the player does not want to heal there is no way you can force them. The druid would give some nice healing backup (especially with the spontaneous healing feat from the complete divine).

You would also be able to fill the role of tank at higher levels with shapechanging abilities (dire boar, dire wolverine, and rhinocerous come to mind for tough creatures).

Just be aware that druids can become overpowered if they are played to be that way. Though with the class mix that you have it looks like there won't be that worry (you won't be stealing any class roles from any of the other players).

An animal companion can be really handy as another character at low level, wolf works well, as well as a riding dog if you are playing a small character.

As for stats I would recommend 18 Wis, 14 Int, 17 Sta, 13 Str, 13 Agi, 17 Cha

This will maximize your spellcasting (wis), give you good skill points (Int) and give you strong social skills (Cha). The high stamina will mean that you will be able to survive without having to rely on shapeshifting and the low dex and agility will not be a worry once you hit level 5 and gain the ability to shapeshift. I am not sure about the skills of the Noble. If the noble is a mainly socially orientated class you might want to move your high charisma to either strength or dexterity for low level survivability or combat prowess.

lotofsnow
2007-05-18, 04:35 PM
I would lean towards a druid with the mix that you have.

Yeah, I think I'm going to go with Druid. I hope that our Cleric decides (possibly after much hinting from other players) to re-roll a Sorcerer if he wants to blast things. It really doesn't matter a ton to me which class I play; I can have fun doing whatever. I think I'm going to play an elf due to the longbow and longsword proficiencies.

With racial adjustments, my ability scores will be:

Str 13
Con 15
Dex 19
Int 14
Wis 18
Cha 13

I assigned the 13 to Charisma because diplomacy is the Noble's thing.

I'll use a wolf as my animal companion.

Thank you, guys, for your help.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-05-18, 06:33 PM
I'm assuming the Noble is a rogue-like class, correct?The Noble is basically a castrated Bard.

goat
2007-05-18, 06:51 PM
Your dex doesn't meld well with your class skills, but it'll be awesome for your defensive bonuses. Your stats are so high, you should be powerful, even if you deliberately don't powergame it. In fact, with your con and the druid's relatively high hp, you might be quite capable of getting in amongst the enemy and flanking, even before you get wildshape.

Should be a good build for not overwhelming the new guys, but providing some hefty backup should everything turn a bit fecal.

DSCrankshaw
2007-05-19, 02:08 PM
Personally, I like the idea of a Beguiler or a Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster (best for ray specialists, since Sneak Attack can be added to spells with attack rolls) better than druid, but then I'm not a big fan of druids, especially the overpowered wild shaped 24/7 variety. Anyway, if you're just planning to bust down doors rather than unlock them, and take the damage from traps rather than find them, then I suppose you can live without a rogue type. If you're set on playing a druid, consider the shapeshifting variety from the PH2. You don't get an animal companion, and your wild-shaping has less variety, but it starts at level 1 and has unlimited uses per day, so you can be front-lining right away. Consider taking the other alternate class feature from PH2, rejuvenation, as well, if you want to be able to add some spontaneous healing to the mix.

Hopeless
2007-05-20, 10:22 AM
For a wizard put the 18 in Intelligence, the 17 in Dexterity and Constitution as not only for purposes of hp and AC they're both base attributes for saves a spellcaster is weak in, put the 13 in Strength and Charisma with the 14 in Wisdom and you should be fine.

Of course you could swap the Int for Cha so you can play a Sorceror instead but thats only if you want a caster who doesn't have to relearn spells at the start of every day.

The Monk will definitely need Mage Armour and Protection from Evil if he's going to be the main tank of the group, traditionally your wizard would need Toughness as their 1st level feat so they can get a total of 10hp at 1st level (1d4+3 for Con 17 and +3 for this feat) you could forgo this but you never know how the game will go and if you play a human character this means access to another feat so you might want to look at Eschew Material, Spell Focus in one specific school although if you go with that option you might want to look at being a specialised wizard which would help at the cost of 2 schools (neither of which can be divination anymore).

Let us know what you decde to go with an what happens as a result.

lotofsnow
2007-05-20, 10:38 AM
Let us know what you decde to go with an what happens as a result.

After rolling both a Beguiler and a Druid character sheet, I realized that my first love is Wizard and (encouraged by my wife pointing out that I created my character before the rest of the players chose their classes) I decided to stick with it.

Here's a link to my setup (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=16816) (let me know if, for some reason, you cannot see it).

I chose to take on the Elf Wizard substitution from Races of the Wild instead of specializing.

As you can see, I made myself middle aged, which caused me to suffer a hit to my physical abilities in exchange for a bonus to my mental ones. I'm a Silvanesti Elf, which gives me +2 to Int and Dex, and -2 to Con and Cha.

I took a flaw (called "Feeble" from Unearthed Arcana, but I prefer to call it "Academic") which penalizes me -2 to physical ability and skill checks in exchange for a bonus feat.

My feats are "Collegiate Wizard," from Complete Arcane, and "Spellcasting Prodigy," from the Dragonlance: Age of Mortals sourcebook.

Between my Elf Wizard substitution, my feats, and my good Int score, I start with 13 1st-level spells and gain 5 spells each time I level up, if I remember correctly.

My spell save DCs are based on a +6 modifier due to my "Spellcasting Prodigy" feat and my superior intellect.

So, all in all, I think my Wizard seems pretty tough. Everything has been approved by the DM, but he hasn't seen it all added up. I'm not too worried though, since he realizes that our party is seriously lacking in some areas.

I'm thinking about asking my DM to allow me to adapt the "Create Psionic Tattoo" feat from the Expanded Psionic Handbook to arcane casting. I probably would take that as my level 5 Wizard Bonus Feat.

Let me know of anything I should reconsider.

We start on Tuesday. I know the Cleric needs help completing his character sheet, but, hopefully, we'll have a chance to actually do some playing. I'll make sure to post here how everything turns out.

Last_resort_33
2007-05-20, 01:25 PM
With the Spell Compendium, Cleric can blast the ****e out of anything...

Go with a wizard, Don't take evocation spells

my 2 cp

goat
2007-05-20, 05:46 PM
Choose a familiar to buff one of your saves, stick them in a pocket and forget about them, and you should be fine.

With those stats as a wizard, you should be laughing.

Flawless
2007-05-20, 06:06 PM
My spell save DCs are based on a +6 modifier due to my "Spellcasting Prodigy" feat and my superior intellect.


Hmm, as far as I remember, the 3.5 version of spellcasting prodegy gives you only bonus spells but not an increased save modifier.

lotofsnow
2007-05-20, 06:35 PM
Hmm, as far as I remember, the 3.5 version of spellcasting prodegy gives you only bonus spells but not an increased save modifier.

According to the Age of Mortals Dragonlance book, Spellcasting Prodigy increases your casting ability by 2 in regards to starting spells, bonus spells and difficulty saves. We're using Age of Mortals as a source book, so I'm pretty sure the DM would go by the way defined there.

Flawless
2007-05-20, 06:46 PM
Ah, I don't have the Age of Mortals source book. I thought it was the same feat as from the Player's Guide to Faerun, where the feat was published for the first time in 3.5. There it says only bonus spells. In 3.0 Forgotten Realms CS spellcasting prodegy was just as you quoted and I thought you got it mixed up. But it seems as if DL is nicer to its caster than are the FR.

lotofsnow
2007-05-20, 09:46 PM
Choose a familiar to buff one of your saves, stick them in a pocket and forget about them, and you should be fine.

With those stats as a wizard, you should be laughing.

Yeah, I figured I'd go with Rat to buff my Fort save.

And I did laugh when I rolled the stats. I actually had rolled pretty decent numbers on my own, but the DM insisted that everyone re-roll attributes together. The way we do it is somewhat high-powered anyway, but it's 4d6 drop the lowest seven times, and drop the lowest of the seven. So, previous to rolling my stats, I spent some time just rolling dice without looking at the results to get the low rolls out of my system. When it came time to roll my official stats my lowest was an 11, which got dropped. Overall, my new numbers were far superior to the original numbers I had rolled.

EagleWiz
2007-05-21, 05:48 PM
Why are Evocation spells bad? At 17th level a wizard can deal 32d6 damage (No save).

Khantalas
2007-05-21, 05:54 PM
Yeah. He could also end the fight for one or more creature in one round at that level. A creature which wouldn't care much about the damage.

LotharBot
2007-05-21, 06:44 PM
Why are Evocation spells bad? At 17th level a wizard can deal 32d6 damage (No save).

Woo, a whole 112 damage on average!

My weakling underpowered 17th level hafling ranger/rogue can use lions charge to potentially do 7d4+42d6+47 damage (without crits), or an average of 211.5 damage. If he's swinging at something with a decent AC and misses half of the time but lands a crit, he's still doing about 112 damage. And this is an intentionally underpowered character.

What your wizard wants to be doing at 17th level is not 112 damage... he wants to be making all of the bad guys save-or-die, save-or-suck, or possibly pick one bad guy and make him suck/die (no save).

On occasion you're fighting the sort of bad guy who you just want to hit for a bit of damage, but most of the time, you're better off doing something actually useful, especially with your high-level spells.

Bagera
2007-05-22, 04:48 PM
You could ask to play an artificer. They get trap finding, and can do just about anything a wizard could do.

lotofsnow
2007-05-23, 07:36 AM
So, we finished rolling characters last night. Well, the noble didn't show up. After taking our time doing that, we had enough time for a quick, one-room fight just to get the newbies familiar with the tactical rules. We ended up fighting 3 goblins in a random dungeon. It was worth 0 xp, death didn't count, no treasure, etc.

The encounter didn't go as well as I'd hoped. The monk, even though mage-armored, got dropped to 2 hit points in the first round. The goblins were pretty spread out at first, but they kind of clumped together to get off good throws with their javelins. I panicked (due to the monk being hit so hard) and cast sleep. The encounter effectively ended there. I didn't want to use sleep just yet, but I didn't want to see anyone die either. The DM, who actually hasn't played in years, was worried that he'd made the fight too hard after the monk took so much damage. He kept giving me strange looks after that. Now that I think of it, I'm pretty sure he's never played in an adventure with a wizard.

Here are the 1st Level spells I know. Anything I should just drop? Anything I'm missing?

charm person, color spray, enlarge person, grease, identify, mage armor, magic missile, orb of acid, lesser, protection from evil, ray of enfeeblement, sleep, summon monster I, true strike

I can prepare 4, so the ones I'm picking I think will be: enlarge person, mage armor, sleep x 2

Overlard
2007-05-23, 08:40 AM
I'd try and get ray of enfeeblement into your daily prepared-spell list. It's just so handy. I'd probably drop enlarge person for it.

lotofsnow
2007-05-31, 07:02 AM
Just a little update on our little group here...

I was chatting with the DM this past Sunday and he was lamenting that he had nothing prepared for Tuesday. Now, since the prospect of the group of us doing a campaign came up, he'd been saying to me, "Do you want to DM?" At first, I understood it to mean that I was stepping on his toes (I was doing a lot of the organization, planning, training of the newbies... but someone has to do that) Then, when he said it again on Sunday, I realized he actually meant it. I offered to try an adventure on Tuesday and see where it went from there. I've never DMed before. I have run a total of 3 one-offs and 6 levels of Age of Worms.

I looked online at the free WOTC adventures and at some other home brew ones I was able to find. Nothing seem to fit. So I got up early Monday morning, grabbed a cup of coffee, and wrote an adventure. Well, the beginning of one anyway, but enough to last us 4 hours of a D&D session (i.e. the entire session).

They loved it. I kind of left it at a cliffhanger, maybe hoping to give the actual DM a starting off point, but instead, the group asked me if I'd be willing to continue with it since they like where it's going (they are all actually lying unconscious in the basement of an inn, not sure why they like that, but ok).

Oh, and the noble, he decided to play a swashbuckler when he heard I was DMing. Which is a good thing, 'cause they all would have died. The former-DM is playing a ranger. The Cleric has come to realize that healing spells are important and every single spell he cast the other night was a cure spell. I keep assuring him that clerics are incredibly powerful at later levels.

I loved making my character so much that I actually plan on having her as a reoccurring character. She's a beguiler now, not a wizard. She's also the reason they are all lying unconscious in the basement of an inn. The group metagamed that she is my character, so they know she's not an enemy, so to speak. I was seriously worried about incapacitating them, worried that they would get upset. They loved it. I wonder how they are going to feel when the +1 Dwarven Waraxe, the letter they are supposed to deliver, and the magic key they found are all gone when they wake up? Oh, that and the inn's on fire.

lotofsnow
2007-05-31, 10:37 PM
Umm... so our group has suddenly blossomed from 4 to 7. Any tips on adjusting ECL for 7 people? Should I just up it one (i.e. ECL 2, for 7 1st level chars)?

kpenguin
2007-06-01, 12:17 AM
Try doubling the number of the monsters in each encounter. Increasing the CR of a single monster might kill them.

Damionte
2007-06-01, 01:18 AM
For that party yeah a wizard will work. Maybe a dual classed wizard/rogue.

Matthew
2007-06-06, 09:17 PM
Try doubling the number of the monsters in each encounter. Increasing the CR of a single monster might kill them.
I would tend to agree. Calculating appropriate ECL is as much a matter of informed guesswork as anything else.

weenie
2007-06-07, 02:37 PM
Have you considered a rouge/wizard combo? The arcane tricster looks like a good choice and with the stats you rolled it's not that hard to have a good caster and a good rouge at the same time.

Edit:
Oh, someone wrote this option already.. :smallsmile: Well, at least it won't go unseen :smallbiggrin:

Thrawn183
2007-06-08, 12:37 PM
You have to be pretty careful with ECl when comes to larger groups. Just using higher CR mobs means that at a certain point the characters won't be able to hit, will get hit all the time, and will lose far more of their saves.

Look at the composition of your group. Do you have a rogue? Realize that if you do, he/she will almost always be able to get flanking with that many people. Be careful of overspecialization. Players tend to gravitate towards not stepping on eachother's toes, this makes them end up really really good at one or two things. It will appear as though their individual power has gone up in addition to their group power. Realize that the wizard doesn't necessarily need to memorize invisibilty, silence and knock with a hide/move silently/search/open lock/disable divice rogue. This means the wizard will have far more combat spells prepared. I think you get the picture.

This is also important if you want to do solo adventures at any during the campaign. You might find that a few of the characters are great as members of a group, but not so hot on their own.

Skills: Every skill is going to end up on at least somebody's skill list. This can turn a lot of non-combat encounters into, "Does anybody have knowledge x?" Three hands go up. [3 die roll] "well, I guess there's no need for you to travel to talk to this sage, because you already know what he was going to tell you." Granted, I'm not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing, just that it is something to be prepared for. Your party is quite likely to be prepared for almost anything that comes their way.

lotofsnow
2007-06-08, 12:51 PM
I totally agree with you Thrawn. I've made some adjustments to my encounters to take the various strengths and weaknesses of the group into account.

Here's what my group consists of:

Cleric
Monk
Paladin
Psion, Kineticist
Ranger
Swashbuckler

There's a possible 7th person, but he's on the fence as to whether or not he's going to play. I have no idea what class he's thinking about, but my guess is Rogue.

I honestly don't know how much each member would be into solo adventuring. The swashbuckler might try and find something to do on his own, especially because he's a veteran D&D player, but I imagine he'd take the monk along for various RP reasons. I won't force any character to pursue solo adventures though.

Also, to all of you still providing insight to my Wizard, I appreciate it whole heartedly. However, unfortunately, she won't be taking part in this adventure. The group suggested I PC her while I DM, but I think there is too much of a conflict of interests there that might only lead to group conflict later on.

Matthew
2007-06-09, 10:31 PM
I think you made the right decision with regard to that.

You have a fairly heavily melee orientated party there (which is fine and not untypical). Definitely numbers over increased CR Beasties, I would say.