Quite Major Tabletop Role Playing tip

[SangoProduction]

If your visualization for "something" makes you think that the "something" doesn't make sense, come up with another way to visualize it.

D&D is all a game of abstraction. Everyone is moving simultaneously, even if we use turns. No one is just sitting there letting you wack on them while they look at their watch waiting for their turn.

So, you can very probably come up with at least 10 different explanations for whatever "something", whether it's Evasion or otherwise, that all fit in the rules, and whatever "vision" you have for the game, especially as the latter seems significantly more restrictive than the former, as a Rogue can just create a force field, or jump into a micro-dimension, whenever a Reflex is called on, by the rules, but not many seem to appreciate such an explanation.

[Kelb_Panthera]

More succinctly;

Fluff is mutable.

[SangoProduction]

More succinctly;

Fluff is mutable.

Yup, basically.

[Chronos]

Personally, my preferred explanation for Evasion is that a fireball doesn't actually completely fill the space it's in. There are a bunch of tendrils of flame that spread out over the space, but there are gaps in between them. Anyone can try to squirm to get hit by fewer tendrils and more gaps: That's what a successful Reflex save is. Rogues are so good at this, that they can manage to squirm to avoid the tendrils entirely, and get entirely into the gaps.

[SangoProduction]

Personally, my preferred explanation for Evasion is that a fireball doesn't actually completely fill the space it's in. There are a bunch of tendrils of flame that spread out over the space, but there are gaps in between them. Anyone can try to squirm to get hit by fewer tendrils and more gaps: That's what a successful Reflex save is. Rogues are so good at this, that they can manage to squirm to avoid the tendrils entirely, and get entirely into the gaps.

Yeah. And you like the explanation, I infer. That's really all that matters.

[kalasulmar]

More succinctly;

Fluff is mutable.

If fluff is mutable and the game is so broken, why do we all play?

[SangoProduction]

If fluff is mutable and the game is so broken, why do we all play?

elaborate please? Or was it a joke?

[Honest Tiefling]

I'm not sure I agree entirely. I am not really a fan of the idea of refluffing spells as purely physical abilities for instance. (Which someone DID try to do). Fluff should be mutable, but at a certain point, I just can't follow it.

[SangoProduction]

I'm not sure I agree entirely. I am not really a fan of the idea of refluffing spells as purely physical abilities for instance. (Which someone DID try to do). Fluff should be mutable, but at a certain point, I just can't follow it.

Yeah, there's some fluff that some people aren't ok with. And that's fine, there are plenty more options. What do you mean by "physical abilities"?

To relate a way I refluffed a wizard in a game (I think 2 years ago) to be more physical, he wasn't the typical "book-nerd" wizard, but was a "technomancer". His lightning bolt was a charged lightning rod thing (I completely forget the name of the actual implement), and fireball was a pipe bomb. Grease was...a bag of grease. (And mass teleport would have been a DeLorean...if it had went that far)

The hour of "study time" was an hour of "build time". No mechanics changed (the DM hand waved encumbrance the "spells", because there was no reason to add more rules), and it was an entirely different feel than normal.

[Honest Tiefling]

Yeah, there's some fluff that some people aren't ok with. And that's fine, there are plenty more options. What do you mean by "physical abilities"?

To relate a way I refluffed a wizard in a game (I think 2 years ago) to be more physical, he wasn't the typical "book-nerd" wizard, but was a "technomancer". His lightning bolt was a charged lightning rod thing (I completely forget the name of the actual implement), and fireball was a pipe bomb. Grease was...a bag of grease. (And mass teleport would have been a DeLorean...if it had went that far)

The hour of "study time" was an hour of "build time". No mechanics changed (the DM hand waved encumbrance the "spells", because there was no reason to add more rules), and it was an entirely different feel than normal.

By physical abilities I mean that the player wanted the spells to count as purely Ex abilities, ignoring the rules of spellcasting, and divine spellcasting in particular. The abilities would be fluffed as feats of strength and will. I was NOT okay with that, for multiple reasons.

The technomancer idea seems cool, however (I assume the setting allowed for it). I don't really mind the abstraction of resources like scrap metal or the like because unless everyone is on board it slogs things down fast. I prefer resource management to be a plot thing, not a character thing. (Difference between tracking bat poop everyday and being on an island with minimal resources sort of deal). If no mechanics change, all the better.

I could see it being a problem in a setting where magic comes at a horrible price, because this would be sidestepping that issue and not consistent with the setting's ideas. But that can be fixed with removing certain spells, or even just having it be a plot point.

[Grod_The_Giant]

By physical abilities I mean that the player wanted the spells to count as purely Ex abilities, ignoring the rules of spellcasting, and divine spellcasting in particular. The abilities would be fluffed as feats of strength and will. I was NOT okay with that, for multiple reasons.

Well, that's not so much refluffing as rewriting rules altogether. Which can be fine in and of itself, but needs a lot more checks and balances then fluff alone does.

[Honest Tiefling]

Well, that's not so much refluffing as rewriting rules altogether. Which can be fine in and of itself, but needs a lot more checks and balances then fluff alone does.

Even if it didn't rewrite the rules, I wasn't really overjoyed by the prospect of it. I sorta like spells remaining spells or tech or something like that. I think it would take a better argument then 'I want the cleric spells, but I don't want to follow a god to get them and I want to be super buff' to convince me otherwise.

[SangoProduction]

By physical abilities I mean that the player wanted the spells to count as purely Ex abilities, ignoring the rules of spellcasting, and divine spellcasting in particular. The abilities would be fluffed as feats of strength and will. I was NOT okay with that, for multiple reasons.

The technomancer idea seems cool, however (I assume the setting allowed for it). I don't really mind the abstraction of resources like scrap metal or the like because unless everyone is on board it slogs things down fast. I prefer resource management to be a plot thing, not a character thing. (Difference between tracking bat poop everyday and being on an island with minimal resources sort of deal). If no mechanics change, all the better.

I could see it being a problem in a setting where magic comes at a horrible price, because this would be sidestepping that issue and not consistent with the setting's ideas. But that can be fixed with removing certain spells, or even just having it be a plot point.

Yeah, that's not fluff, that's actually crunch to make something an Ex ability. For feats of strength with light magic, look at Lt. Armstrong from Full Metal Alchemist. I also don't mind the idea of someone fluffing their fireball as just punching the air really hard, increasing air pressure, thus heat, to the point that it explodes where it's projected. Again, magic still involved, but it definitely has a different feel than having a tiny bead of magic floats to the location and explodes, which is the point of Fluff.

If your GM is running a game where the fluff doesn't make sense (no spare metal, or any real materials), or where it circumvents rules (thus changing the crunch, and thus not OK as fluff), then just choose different fluff.

[SangoProduction]

Even if it didn't rewrite the rules, I wasn't really overjoyed by the prospect of it. I sorta like spells remaining spells or tech or something like that. I think it would take a better argument then 'I want the cleric spells, but I don't want to follow a god to get them and I want to be super buff' to convince me otherwise.

I can explain that. Clerics can be devoted to an ideal, rather than god, by RAW. So, he is devoted to body building, and achieving the perfect form. The price he pays for his devotion? The magic is stored in his muscles, preventing him from using all of it (thus can be buff without a high STR score). His hour of "prayer" will be work outs and stretches that changes where the magic sits in his body.

[Honest Tiefling]

I can explain that. Clerics can be devoted to an ideal, rather than god, by RAW. So, he is devoted to body building, and achieving the perfect form. The price he pays for his devotion? The magic is stored in his muscles, preventing him from using all of it (thus can be buff without a high STR score). His hour of "prayer" will be work outs and stretches that changes where the magic sits in his body.

It was in Forgotten Realms, where that isn't even possible. That being said, I think a religion of physical devotion could work in another setting and wouldn't mind it...But it still has to be magic. Not physical abilities.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Even if it didn't rewrite the rules, I wasn't really overjoyed by the prospect of it. I sorta like spells remaining spells or tech or something like that. I think it would take a better argument then 'I want the cleric spells, but I don't want to follow a god to get them and I want to be super buff' to convince me otherwise.
It sounded more like psionics to me. (Or possibly Flex Mentallo.)

[Knaight]

So, you can very probably come up with at least 10 different explanations for whatever "something", whether it's Evasion or otherwise, that all fit in the rules, and whatever "vision" you have for the game, especially as the latter seems significantly more restrictive than the former, as a Rogue can just create a force field, or jump into a micro-dimension, whenever a Reflex is called on, by the rules, but not many seem to appreciate such an explanation.

Alternately, I can avoid this sort of thing entirely by playing with systems or house rules where I don't have to do a bunch of work to get rules that should make sense to make sense. As a defense of system flaws, this is pretty weak.

[SangoProduction]

Alternately, I can avoid this sort of thing entirely by playing with systems or house rules where I don't have to do a bunch of work to get rules that should make sense to make sense. As a defense of system flaws, this is pretty weak.

Mind mentioning a flaw? Can't really debate if you don't say what your problem is.

[SangoProduction]

It was in Forgotten Realms, where that isn't even possible. That being said, I think a religion of physical devotion could work in another setting and wouldn't mind it...But it still has to be magic. Not physical abilities.

OK. Didn't know that. And no one is claiming for fluff to change crunch.

[Honest Tiefling]

Alternately, I can avoid this sort of thing entirely by playing with systems or house rules where I don't have to do a bunch of work to get rules that should make sense to make sense. As a defense of system flaws, this is pretty weak.

I never saw this as a problem with the flaws of the system, (through maybe the OP did?) but rather tweaking fluffy bits to the taste of the table at hand for a more cohesive experience that lends itself well to compromise. A technomancer is not a flaw of DnD, it was never designed to do that.

[SangoProduction]

I never saw this as a problem with the flaws of the system, (through maybe the OP did?) but rather tweaking fluffy bits to the taste of the table at hand for a more cohesive experience that lends itself well to compromise. A technomancer is not a flaw of DnD, it was never designed to do that.

Yeah. Quite. I'm wondering what that poster was saying as well.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If fluff is mutable and the game is so broken, why do we all play?

A) The game is not broken, just -incredibly- complex. Some things are miles and miles ahead of other things in scope of power and setting impact but that's a feature, not a bug.

B) Fluff has always been mutable in every P&P RPG. I don't even understand the complaint here.


And no one is claiming for fluff to change crunch.

Actually, some people do. That's the whole reason it gets pointed out so often that fluff is mutable. People look at the default fluff and think, "this doesn't make sense," then try to "fix" it by changing the mechanics to match what they think makes more sense, usually changing the fluff as well along the way until they've outright replaced the thing they didn't like with something altogether different that just happens to share the same name. For whatever reason, just changing the fluff to "make sense" with the mechanics listed is either too much or not enough.

As a student of human psychology, it's fascinating. As a player who's dealt with such DM's in the past, it's annoying as balls.

[SangoProduction]

A) The game is not broken, just -incredibly- complex. Some things are miles and miles ahead of other things in scope of power and setting impact but that's a feature, not a bug.

B) Fluff has always been mutable in every P&P RPG. I don't even understand the complaint here.



Actually, some people do. That's the whole reason it gets pointed out so often that fluff is mutable. People look at the default fluff and think, "this doesn't make sense," then try to "fix" it by changing the mechanics to match what they think makes more sense, usually changing the fluff as well along the way until they've outright replaced the thing they didn't like with something altogether different that just happens to share the same name. For whatever reason, just changing the fluff to "make sense" with the mechanics listed is either too much or not enough.

As a student of human psychology, it's fascinating. As a player who's dealt with such DM's in the past, it's annoying as balls.

I did mean on this forum (aside from the person I was responding to), but yeah. I agree. And yes, I know of those people.

[kalasulmar]

A) The game is not broken, just -incredibly- complex. Some things are miles and miles ahead of other things in scope of power and setting impact but that's a feature, not a bug.

B) Fluff has always been mutable in every P&P RPG. I don't even understand the complaint here.

Just pointing out that we all homebrew something at our tables to make it fit our expectations. Some change mechanics while others change the fluff.

To me, changing mechanical aspects was always easier than ignoring background fluff, because the background gave reasoning to the rules.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Just pointing out that we all homebrew something at our tables to make it fit our expectations. Some change mechanics while others change the fluff.

I won't deny that there are a few rough spots in need of polish (looking at you, drowning rules) but a few chips and cracks don't make a dish unusable. To call the game "broken" suggests that it's either unusable or in dire need of repair and that's just not the case. If 3.X doesn't allow you to tell the stories you want to tell, as is, then it may well be easier to find a system that does rather than completely overhaul the existing system.


To me, changing mechanical aspects was always easier than ignoring background fluff, because the background gave reasoning to the rules.

I don't see how this can be true. There are so many rules with so much variety between them that there's no way anyone (including the designers that were payed to try) can reasonably account for how a change they make might interact with something else in a way that causes an even deeper problem that they will then have to fix additionally which causes the same issue in a loop that could take years to conclude. If you change a bit of fluff, that's it.

Ultimately though, I must confess to a lack of understanding about why the fluff has to make sense at all in a world that is inherently insensible. Not just physics, but chemistry, ecology, geology, geography, meteorology, and a handful of other sciences breakdown horribly with even cursory examinations of a typical campaign setting. Where's the point that you just say, "screw it," and suspend your disbelief?