Tomb Raider build

[Tanarii]

Hi all,

I'm looking for suggestions on a Tomb Raider build.

Restrictions: No multiclassing. PHB only.

Good at: Dealing with Traps. Climbing. Leaping. Tumbling.
Okay at: Combat & Stealth.
Don't Need: Social Interaction or Learning.

My first thoughts:
Stats needed: Str & Dex.
Skills & Tools needed: Athletics, Acrobatics, Investigation, & Thieves' Tools
Class Abilities: Expertise and some Athletics enhancer. Or Magic to compensate.

My first thought is a Str based Mountain Dwarf Rogue.

Mountain Dwarf Rogue Urchin
Level 1:
Str 16 Dex 15 Con 14 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 8
Saves Dex & Int, HD d8
Features: Speed 25 ft, Darkvision, Dwarven Resilience, Dwarven Combat Training, Tool Proficiency, Stonecutting, Dwarven Armor Training, Expertise, Sneak Attack, Thieves’ Cant, City Secrets
Weapons: Simple, Rapiers, Longswords, Shortswords, Hand Crossbows, Warhammers, Battleaxes
Armor: Light, Medium
Proficiencies: Acrobatics, Athletics, Investigation, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth
Tools: Disguise Kit, Forgery Kit, Smith’s Tools, Thieves’ Tools
Expertise: Investigation, Thieves’ Tools
Languages: Dwarvish, Common, Thieves’ Cant
Starting Equipment: Rapier, Shortbow, Quiver of 20 arrows, Burglar’s Pack, Leather Armor, Daggers (2), Thieves’ Tools

Level 2:
Feature: Cunning Action

Level 3:
Feature: Roguish Archetype (Thief), Fast Hands, Second-Story Work

Level 4:
ASI --> Feat: Observant (Int +1 → 14)

Level 5:
Feature: Uncanny Dodge

Level 6:
Feature: Expertise
Expertise: Athletics, Stealth

Level 7:
Feature: Evasion

Level 8:
ASI → Feat: Dungeon Delver

Level 9:
Feature: Supreme Sneak

Level 10:
ASI: Str +2 → 18


Level 11:
Feature: Reliable Talent

Level 12:
ASI → Feat: Medium Armor Mastery

Level 13:
Feature: Use Magic Device

Level 14:
Feature: Blindsense

Level 15:
Feature: Slippery Mind

Level 16:
ASI: Str +2 → 20

Level 17:
Feature: Thief’s Reflexes

Level 18:
Feature: Elusive

Level 19:
ASI → Feat: Athlete (Dex +1 → 16)

Level 20:
Feature: Stroke of Luck

But I can see arguments to be made for a Fighter or Monk. Even a Cha-dumped Bard or Bladelock, which I played around with builds for, might work.

Ideas? Recommendations on Mountain Dwarf Rogue build? Other class/race combo suggestions?

Also corny name suggestions (Lana Crafter?) welcomed. ;)

[Nev3rmore]

I feel like a Lara Croft build without dungeon delver is just not right.



Edit: Nevermind, you have it. :)

[Mjolnirbear]

A tomb raider would need some kind of learning to locate the tomb. I would say History at least.

I think this could be made reliably with any class almost, but for Expertise you would stick to Bard or Rogue, or Knowledge Cleric. Divination wizard would serve amazingly for a classically lucky explorer, as would a halfling or anyone with the Lucky feat.

I'm prejudiced for spellcasters, and so I'd make a valor bard. I would *strongly* consider only buffing or healing spells so i could reliably avoid pumping Charisma. I should choose variant human or halfling as the race, because lucky would be online from level one, but what I'd probably do instead is choose a genasi; either fire for darkvision or (more likely) air for dexterity, levitation, and holding the breath, all of which are likely to help with various traps.

Edit: i just now see phb only. Halfling it is, because even variant humans are boring. But in my head it's really an air genasi. ;)

[unwise]

Having no academic skills just feels wrong to me for a Lara Croft / Indiana Jones style character. I'd consider History over Sleight of Hand or Acrobatics. Acrobatics is one of those skills that always seems important, but Athletics ends up doing most of the heavy lifting for physical stuff.

What does this person do for a job? Are they a thief?

I have a Dex and Int based Bard with Sage background that made a pretty good Indiana Jones. I toned down charisma, as all of the spells I wanted for archaeology did not rely on a save. Detect magic, identify, read language, all that good divination stuff. Mine was slightly houseuled though, giving up inspiration and arcane secrets to get a mix of Lore and Valour colleges.

[Rusty Killinger]

Your strength score is a lot higher than you need. With the way that finesse weapons and sneak attack work in 5e your attack and damage rolls will both be Dex rolls. Strength gives you a bump to athletics and not much else. 12 Str seems like plenty (14 at the most). Dex is your most important stat, max it out. Everybody needs Con. And throw what's left in Str and Int.

That does make mountain dwarf a sub-optimal choice, so unless it's a core part of the concept I'd drop it. Elf seems like the natural choice with both +2 Dex and darkvision. And you have 3 sub-races to pick from for flavor.

[Tanarii]

Str is high because leaping is a direct function of Str score/bonus. Even second story work is only increasing it at 1/2 the rate of direct Str increases. Otoh I realized that with a spd 25 race I can't jump more than 15 ft without the Athlete feat without increasing my movement somehow, like taking a Dash action or the Mobile Feat.

I agree History, and maybe Arcana/Religiom, would be appropriate skills. Probably more so than Perception or Sleight of Hand. Very good point there. And yeah, Acrobatics as well as Athletics seemed like overkill, even if it represented a character both very strong and very agile.

On classes, I think it was the feature Second Story work that called out to me. But the Athlete Feat would give the climbing side anyway, and a decent Str score powers leaps anyway. Also Cha-less Bards get divinations and some other 'dungeon explorer/raider' appropriate spells. Maybe I'll take another stab at a Str (with Dex 14) valor build.

I think my biggest issue is that having a high Str & high Dex character has a lot of mechanical overlap.

[JellyPooga]

I'm currently playing a character along very similar lines in a PbP game:

Race: Hill Dwarf
Class / Level: Rogue / 1

Str:14
Dex:14
Con:12+2=14
Int:12
Wis:13+1=14
Cha:8

Skills: Athletics, Sleight of Hand, Investigation, Insight, Perception, Persuasion
Expertise: Perception, Thieves Tools

Persuasion came from his Background of Guild Artisan, so that can easily change. History or Acrobatics would be appropriate alternatives. History is somewhat redundant due to Stonecunning (though if you wanted a more Indiana Jones feel, it would be appropriate).

You want Wisdom to be relatively high, if only for Perception; can't deal with a trap if you don't spot it! This guy was built with 27pt-buy; good all-round stats, but nothing exceptional feels right for an Indy-type.

At higher levels, the Thief Archetype probably fits the fluff best. Assassin is all social and combat and Arcane Trickster doesn't feel very Dwarvish to me. The Thief's Use Magic Device also fits the Tomb Raider feel very well at higher levels.

For Feats/ASI's; Dungeon Delver is going to be my first pick, probably followed by Observant and Skulker (not necessarily in that order). I'm not bothering much with ASI's; Expertise takes care of the Skills I want (I'll be picking up Investigation and probably Insight at 6th) and combat just isn't a focus for this character.

[TopCheese]

This assumes that you allow martial abilities to be fantasy and not stifle non-broken martial ideas.

Or you give her a couple of repeating crossbows.

Half-Orc Urchin Bard 20
Str: 10
Dex: 20
Con: 16
Int: 11
Wis: 12
Cha: 12

Skills: Acrobatics, Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Perception, Survival, Intimidate.


Half-Orc Features:
• Within 60 feet of you, treat dim light as bright, darkness as dim light
• Intimidation proficiency
• Once before resting, you can drop to 1hp when you would have been reduced to 0hp
• Gain one additional weapon die of damage on a critical hit
Urchin Feature:
• Your party can travel through a city twice as fast when not in combat
Class Features:
• Inspire an ally within 60 feet, giving them a bonus 1d6 on one ability check, attack roll, or save (Cha mod per day)
• Gain half your proficiency bonus on ability checks you aren't proficient in
• Song of Rest: You can perform during a short rest to cause any ally or yourself to gain an additional 1d6 hp (once) if healed during the rest
• Bard Archetype: Valor
• You are proficient with martial weapons. medium armor, and shields
• Allies can use your Bardic Inspiration on weapon damage rolls and as a reaction to increase their AC against one attack
Double proficiency with chosen skills (Acrobatics, Stealth, Perception, Survival)
• Inspiration improves to d8
• Regain Bardic Inspiration with short rest
• You can perform as an action to give yourself and allies who can hear you advantage on saves vs charm and frightened for one round
• You can make two attacks on your turn
• Crossbow Expert: You don't have disadvantage from adjacent enemies on ranged attacks, you can load crossbows faster, and you can make a bonus action attack with a hand crossbow after attacking with a one-handed weapon
• Rest healing bonus improves to 1d8
• Inspiration improves to d10
• Two additional double proficient skills
• You can learn two spells from any class
• Dungeon Delver: You gain advantage on checks to find secret doors and saves vs traps, you gain resistance vs traps, and you don't need to move slowly to look for traps
• Rest healing bonus improves to 1d10
• You can learn two more spells from any class
• You can make an attack as a bonus action after casting a Bard spell
• Bardic Inspiration Improves: d12
• Rest healing bonus improves to 1d12
• You can learn two more spells from any class
• You regain a use of inspiration when you roll initiative and have none

I'm all honesty Lara Croft is kinda a Mary Sue, so I decided to focus on the newest Tomb Raider game. You don't really need a lot of Intelligence to get through it. The spells that the bard has is mostly healing spells but will pick up some buff spells. Nothing that has a saving throw though will have sleep at early levels.

The one thing I'm taking from the early games is the duel wielding. That has always been one of the coolest things ever as most games only let you have one fun at a time.

This chick has crossbow expert and will use it with duel crossbows. Either have a way to load them without a free hand (use your imagination) or has repeating crossbows.

Do note that before JC took a crack at the Crossbow expert feat, Mike Mearles ok'ed duel wielding crossbows... So the original intent could have been this and later they changed it due to JC ideas. #shrug

[JellyPooga]

To be fair, if we're talking about a literal "Tomb Raider" build, as in Lara Croft, we should probably be thinking about Half-Elf for the oversized boso-*ahem* bonus Charisma. :smallwink:

In all seriousness, for a Lara Croft build, we're looking at Variant Human, really.

Race: Variant Human
- Ability Scores: +1 Dex (she's lithe), +1Con (she can take a hit)
- Skill Prof: Acrobatics (have you seen those swan-dives and tumbles?)
- Feat: Lucky ('cos she's awesome)
- Language: Something Ancient...Draconic maybe?
Class: Hmm...I'd be tempted by Monk; she doesn't wear armour, has movement shenanigans and I'm pretty sure she's probably a badass without weapons (she just always has a gun or two)
Background: Noble (she's loaded); switch out the gaming set for thieves tools

[TopCheese]

To be fair, if we're talking about a literal "Tomb Raider" build, as in Lara Croft, we should probably be thinking about Half-Elf for the oversized boso-*ahem* bonus Charisma. :smallwink:

In all seriousness, for a Lara Croft build, we're looking at Variant Human, really.

Race: Variant Human
- Ability Scores: +1 Dex (she's lithe), +1Con (she can take a hit)
- Skill Prof: Acrobatics (have you seen those swan-dives and tumbles?)
- Feat: Lucky ('cos she's awesome)
- Language: Something Ancient...Draconic maybe?
Class: Hmm...I'd be tempted by Monk; she doesn't wear armour, has movement shenanigans and I'm pretty sure she's probably a badass without weapons (she just always has a gun or two)
Background: Noble (she's loaded); switch out the gaming set for thieves tools

They actually have stopped over sexualizing her with the new series. She actually looks better now, as in healthy/not going to snap in half, than she did before. In the next game I think she is going to have a large amount of time in a parka due to he could.

I think they can still sexualize her and be fine if they don't go silly over dramatic with it. Thor has nice "I would eat sushi off then"* abs so Lara Drift can be sexy too.

(* direct quote from me when I first saw Thor, too bad the movies were horrid. Jole couldn't save the Tomb Raider movie and Hemsworth couldn't save the Thor movies).

I would say monk If it had weapon prof in hand crossbow. Hmm maybe a Dark elf build? Don't they get hand crossbow as a weapon prof?

Noble background works but that is for her human side. Lara is two people/characters out into one. There is the smart human noble but also the Tomb raising death machine.

[JellyPooga]

I would say monk If it had weapon prof in hand crossbow. Hmm maybe a Dark elf build? Don't they get hand crossbow as a weapon prof?

Dark Elf Monk could work if you wanted the Hand Crossbows. I'm not convinced we need H.Xbow though; dual-wielded Handaxes or Daggers would portray the right fantasy-equivalent to dual-wielded pistols and would also benefit from the increased damage from Martial Arts (they are still melee weapons, even when they're thrown).

[TopCheese]

Dark Elf Monk could work if you wanted the Hand Crossbows. I'm not convinced we need H.Xbow though; dual-wielded Handaxes or Daggers would portray the right fantasy-equivalent to dual-wielded pistols and would also benefit from the increased damage from Martial Arts (they are still melee weapons, even when they're thrown).

Hand axes could work, I've just always viewed duel wielding pistols as the Lara Croft fighting style.

I just don't see her as a martial artist in the way monks are. She would have training but not...

Barbarian... The new Laura Croft could/would be a high starting ability score Barbarian!

I need to make this...

Edit:

Half-Orc Sage Barbarian 20
Str: 22
Dex:16
Con:18
Int:13
Wis: 10
Cha: 12

Half-Orc Features:
• Within 60 feet of you, treat dim light as bright, darkness as dim light
• Intimidation proficiency
• Once before resting, you can drop to 1hp when you would have been reduced to 0hp
• Gain one additional weapon die of damage on a critical hit
Sage Feature:
• You frequently know where to find information concerning lore
Class Features:
• 2/day you gain advantage on Str checks and saves, deal +2 damage on strength based melee attacks, and resistance vs bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage
• Add Con mod to AC when not wearing armor
• You can gain advantage on Str based melee attacks by granting advantage to attacks against you for the round
• Danger Sense: You gain advantage on Dex saves vs things you can see
• Barbarian Archetype: Totem
• You can cast beast sense and speak with animals as rituals
• Eagle - When not in heavy armor and while raging you can dash as a bonus action and opportunity attacks have disadvantage against you
• Dungeon Delver: You gain advantage on checks to find secret doors and saves vs traps, you gain resistance vs traps, and you don't need to move slowly to look for traps
• If not in heavy armor, your speed improves by 10 feet
• You can make two attacks on your turn
• Eagle - You can see in dim light and clearly up to a mile
• Gain advantage on initiative rolls, and you can enter a rage to not be surprised
• Gain one additional weapon die of damage on a melee critical hit
• You can cast commune with nature as a ritual
• Your rage can prevent being reduced to 0 hp (see rules)
• Two additional dice on crits
• Eagle - You gain a fly speed equal to your walking speed while raging but at the end of your turn you will fall
• Your rages will no longer end early unless you choose
• Defensive Duelist: You can use a reaction to gain proficiency bonus to AC when wielding a finesse weapon
• Three additional dice on crits
• Can use your Str score in place of a Str check
• Your max Str and Con score is 24 and they increase by 4

Eagle because she is very mobile, should get used to the darkness, and I've seen her make some jumps that just doesn't make sense for a typical person (and land).

Also in the new setting she has raged a couple times already.

[Tanarii]

I agree a literal 'Lara Croft' character wasn't my intention, but I knew the term 'Tomb Raider' was loaded so I played with it in the names thing.

Like I said in my OP, my primary goal is dealing with traps, big leaps, tumbling, and climbing. I like the idea of adding History since I need a high Int anyway, and maybe a splattering of 'find stuff' magic (if a Bard) though.


You want Wisdom to be relatively high, if only for Perception; can't deal with a trap if you don't spot it!Wis and Perception have nothing to do with Traps. Trap finding is Int/Investigation. So Wis is a dump stat for this char. I'll get plenty of creature/stealth finding capability from Observant and (if I have a spare skill) Perception.

[TopCheese]

I agree a literal 'Lara Croft' character wasn't my intention, but I knew the term 'Tomb Raider' was loaded so I played with it in the names thing.

Like I said in my OP, my primary goal is dealing with traps, big leaps, tumbling, and climbing. I like the idea of adding History since I need a high Int anyway, and maybe a splattering of 'find stuff' magic (if a Bard) though.

Wis and Perception have nothing to do with Traps. Trap finding is Int/Investigation. So Wis is a dump stat for this char. I'll get plenty of creature/stealth finding capability from Observant and (if I have a spare skill) Perception.

Well actually perception has more to do with traps than investigation of you go by the DMG... It also depends on DM... They don't have good rules for exploration...

I think for Tomb Raiding, the barbarian is perhaps the best class for such endeavors. Large HP, decent skill list, and great class features for it (ranger sense). Plus if you run into a trap of kobolds you can at least get out :)

[Theodoxus]

It's too bad you're restricted (for whatever reason) from MC. I built a really fun tomb raider/lost temple explorer - Cleric (Know) 4/Rogue (AT) X. Tons of skills, 4 expertise (History and Arcana) from Knowledge domain. Worshiped Farlagnan (sp). Concept was a wanderer who found and delved into lost temples of foreign gods for treasure and fame.

The unfortunate part was it was for a Red Hand of Doom game, and the concept was completely wasted. Still functional (we were 8th level when I opted for a different character) but just wasn't the campaign for that particular character. I'll definitely be revisiting the idea for a future game where exploration is key (perhaps a Kingmaker campaign adopted to 5th...)

[Tanarii]

Well actually perception has more to do with traps than investigation of you go by the DMG... It also depends on DM... They don't have good rules for exploration...Every 5e DM I've played with, including for AL adventures, has used Investigation for searching for Traps. Passive if it's a 'take 10' type situation, Active if we use an action. That's across several DMs in several gaming shops in a metropolitan area. OTOH, it's still possible some kind of regional 'groupthink' is occurring despite a large and spread out DM-base. Or it could just be a direct carry-over from so many being 3.5 DMs used to Int/Search. But it means I'm generally happy with the idea of dumping Wis as a stat.

I don't DM 5e (yet), so I'm not familiar with the DMG rules or actual content of the AL adventures themselves.

[TopCheese]

Every 5e DM I've played with, including for AL adventures, has used Investigation for searching for Traps. Passive if it's a 'take 10' type situation, Active if we use an action. That's across several DMs in several gaming shops in a metropolitan area. OTOH, it's still possible some kind of regional 'groupthink' is occurring despite a large and spread out DM-base. Or it could just be a direct carry-over from so many being 3.5 DMs used to Int/Search. But it means I'm generally happy with the idea of dumping Wis as a stat.

I don't DM 5e (yet), so I'm not familiar with the DMG rules or actual content of the AL adventures themselves.

I think it should have more to do with Int, believe me I do, but someone a while back broke down the phb/dmg with regards to finding traps and wisdom (perception) win out.

AL seems to assume that the DMG doesn't exist, at least from what I've seen and heard. Like, it may reference things, but typically the DMG just doesn't exist :/

[Tanarii]

Well, whatever the reason, the important part is that I can pretty much assume Investigation = searching for hidden *things* vs Perception = spotting hidden creatures. Especially for this Char, since he won't even be in AL. Unless I port him in later, at which point MC becomes an option anyway.

So here's a quick stab at a Variant Human Valor build (Cha dumped). I'm away from PHB so I'll do a Lore Bard version tonight when I get home. I'm only going up to 10 because I doubt I'll play too much past that level.

Human Bard Criminal

Level 1:
Str 15 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 13 Wis 8 Cha 10
Saves Dex & Cha, HD d8
Features: Bonus Feat, Bonus Skill, Spellcasting, Bardic Inspiration (d6), Criminal Contacts
Weapons: Simple, Hand Crossbows, Longswords, Rapiers, Shortsword
Armor: Light
Proficiencies: Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, History, Investigation, Stealth
Tools: Flute, Lute, Pan Pipes, Card set, Thieves’ Tools
Languages: Common, Draconic
Feat: Observant (Int +1 → 14)
Cantrips: Light, Mage Hand
Spells Known: Healing Word, Comprehend Languages*, Detect Magic*, Sleep
Starting Equipment: Longsword, Explorer’s Pack, Pan Pipes, Leather Armor, Dagger, Crowbar, Dark Common Clothes with Hood, Belt Pouch, 15 gp

Level 2
Features: Jack of All Trades, Song of Rest (d6)
Spells Known: Identify*

Level 3:
Features: Bard College (College of Valor), Bonus Proficiencies, Combat Inspiration, Expertise
Weapons: Martial
Armor: Medium, Shields
Expertise: Investigation, History
Spells Known: Locate Object

Level 4:
ASI → Feat: Athletic (Str +1 → 16)
Cantrip: Blade Ward
Spells Known: Knock

Level 5:
Features: Bardic Inspiration (d8), Font of Inspiration
Spells Known: Clairvoyance

Level 6:
Features: Countercharm, Extra Attack
Spells Known: Speak with Dead

Level 7:
Spells Known: Locate Creature

Level 8:
ASI → Feat: Dungeon Delver
Spells Known: Dimension Door

Level 9:
Feature: Song of Rest (d8)
Spells Known: Legend Lore

Level 10:
Features: Bardic Inspiration (d10), Expertise, Magical Secrets
Expertise: Stealth, Intimidation
Cantrip: True Strike
Spells Known: Commune, Rary's Telepathic Bond

Some things that jump out:
- I'm stuck with Urchin or Criminal for getting Thieves' Tools. (I forgot to mention No Custom backgrounds.) I went with Criminal just 'cause I like it better.

- Bardic Inspiration is close to a dead ability.

- Level 1-2 is going to be painfully dangerous.

- I wasn't sure where to go with Cantrips and Spells. Blade Ward/True Strike are really for use with Battle Magic, which doesn't come into play until 14th level. And I'm awfully heavy on Divination spells here. OTOH that's a focused character all right. :)

- I'm thinking a Lore Bard, with some Str for leaps (maybe 12-14) is going to be far superior.

(Edit: I'll go over your Tombarian Raider up above in a little bit to see if I like the way it fits. ;) )

[Tanarii]

To be fair, if we're talking about a literal "Tomb Raider" build, as in Lara Croft, we should probably be thinking about Half-Elf for the oversized boso-*ahem* bonus Charisma. :smallwink:Hahaha totally missed that on my first pass. This Char has to be a Half-elf now. Guess Cha isn't a dump stat any more. ;)

[JellyPooga]

Well actually perception has more to do with traps than investigation


Every 5e DM I've played with, including for AL adventures, has used Investigation for searching for Traps.

I'm surprised that AL games have gone with Investigation. It's pretty clear in the DMG that Perception is the skill to use, whether just spotting or searching. Personally, I think Investigation should be key, but by default it's not. The actual uses of Investigation have been sadly neglected by RAW and it's only GM interpretation or preference that make the difference. Heck, I've had one GM say that the Investigation skill doesn't even exist in his game, because he can't think of a good use of it over Perception (he also didn't like the idea of Passive Perception either, but that's another story).

Whether searching for traps is Investigation or Perception, however, Expertise in both will give you a better chance of avoiding the ones you don't spot; you should at least have some kind of benefit from Perception regarding traps, i.e. when you fail to find it with Investigation, you might yet spot it with Perception,

[Kabooki]

When it comes to investigation verse perception, I like to compare them to 3.5's skills search and spot. I feel investigation is more active, looking and interpretating what is around an individual: like search. Perception is more peripheral and less structured, like spot. Just my two cents.

The matter at hand about a Tomb Raider build, I think Laura Croft as well. With the guidelines that are given, I would have to heavy Int, Cha, and Dex. Intelligence for the knowledge of lore, Charisma for her ability to talk her way out of trouble, and Dexterity due to her acrobatic fighting style. My first, but yet unorthodox choice, would be Dexadin (a Paladin that has a high Dex, wears light armor...). A Vow of Vengence Dexadin fits Lara Croft as she desires to "fight the greater evil". Several skills you want can be picked up through background or feats. I hope you give Dexadin a chance.

[Malifice]

Any reason you would go STR based?

Why not Dex, and go a (Human Female) and take Dungeon Delver at 1st.

You can only SA with finesse weapons anyway.

Youre much less MAD, and totally get the concept up and running from 1st level.

Str 9
Dex 15(16)
Con 12
Wis 13(14)
Int 12
Cha 12

Expertise in Perception and Acrobatics.

[Theodoxus]

I'm surprised that AL games have gone with Investigation. It's pretty clear in the DMG that Perception is the skill to use, whether just spotting or searching. Personally, I think Investigation should be key, but by default it's not. The actual uses of Investigation have been sadly neglected by RAW and it's only GM interpretation or preference that make the difference. Heck, I've had one GM say that the Investigation skill doesn't even exist in his game, because he can't think of a good use of it over Perception (he also didn't like the idea of Passive Perception either, but that's another story).

Whether searching for traps is Investigation or Perception, however, Expertise in both will give you a better chance of avoiding the ones you don't spot; you should at least have some kind of benefit from Perception regarding traps, i.e. when you fail to find it with Investigation, you might yet spot it with Perception,

Dungeon Delver: You have advantage on Wisdom (Perception) and Intelligence (Investigation) checks made to detect the presence of secret doors.

Investigation (page 178):When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object [trap!], discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.


Yeah, no support for differentiating perception and investigation... seems pretty cut and dried, but if someone (like your DM) can provide a reason to use one over the other, that's perfectly within the rules too.

[JellyPooga]

Yeah, no support for differentiating perception and investigation...

Yeah, you can use Investigation, but there's little to no downside to ignoring it altogether and just using Perception instead. It's almost as if Investigation is an afterthought to King Perception

[Tanarii]

I got approval for multiclassing, as long as (and I quote) I'm not "stupid about it". I'm going to assume that means not picking a few levels from a bunch of different classes. Obviously that changes things a lot. I also took a close look at the Barbarian Danger Sense, and it's definitely nice. So I'm thinking a Barbarian-Rogue.

If I go this route, things I want:
1) Investigation & Perception proficiency
2) Dungeon Delver. Observant if my Int/Wis are low.
3) Danger Sense. Extra Attack is Bonus.
4) Expertise, Cunning Action, Fast Hands, Second-Story Work & Reliable Talent. Maximizing Sneak attack is bonus.

My questions become:
1) Str or Dex? Currently leaning Str with Finess Weapon. That allows Reckless Attacks to get Sneak Attack Bonus.
2) Rapier/Shield or Shortsword/Dagger? Shield would make me a tanking monster, especially with Evasion. Shortsword/Dagger would be for ranged sneak attacks, and I could drop the dagger todisarming traps as a bonus action with Cunning Action / Fast Hands. As well as a increasing the chance of landing a sneak attack.
3) Should I go Barbarian 5 for Extra Attack, and when? I'm leaning towards yes and as soon as possible, stopping only to go Rogue 2 for Cunning Action. That'd probably mean Barbarian 8 / Rogue 12 at max level, if I ever get there.
4) What Barbarian Path, and features (if Totem)? Currently thinking Totem, even though it's kind of thematically weird. On the other hand Barb is thematically weird in the first place. :) Wolf Totem stands out the most.
5) Int/Wis? With Expertise in Investigation and Perception the bonuses become fairly ludicrous. Stacking Observation on top, it seems like I don't need to pump those stats particularly.

Feedback on that is welcome.

This is the build I came up with based around those answers so far.
Human Barbarian / Rogue Urchin

Level 1 (Barb 1):
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 9 Wis 9 Cha 8
Saves Str & Con
Features: Rage, Unarmored Defense, City Secrets
Weapons: Martial ; Armor: Light
Proficiencies: Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Perception, Athletics, History
Tools: Thieves’ Tools, Disguise Kit
Feat: Dungeon Delver
Languages: Common, Draconic

Level 2 (Barb 1 / Rogue 1):
Features: Expertise, Sneak Attack, Thieves’ Cant
Expertise: Perception, Investigation
Proficiencies: Investigation
Tools: Forgery Kit
Languages: Thieves’ Cant

Level 3 (Barb 2 / Rogue 1): Features: Reckless Attack, Danger Sense
Level 4 (Barb 2 / Rogue 2): Features: Cunning Action
Level 5 (Barb 3 / Rogue 2): Features: Barbarian Path (Totem), Rituals, Totem (Wolf)
Level 6 (Barb 4 / Rogue 2): ASI → Feat: Observant (Wis +1 → 10)
Level 7 (Barb 5 / Rogue 2): Features: Extra Attack
Level 8 (Barb 5 / Rogue 3): Features: Roguish Archetype (Thief), Fast-Hands, Second-Story Work
Level 9 (Barb 5 / Rogue 4): ASI: Con +2 → 18
Level 10 (Barb 5 / Rogue 5): Features: Uncanny Dodge
Level 11 (Bard 5 / Rogue 6): Features: Expertise ; Expertise: Stealth, History
Level 12 (Barb 5 / Rogue 7): Features: Evasion
Level 13 (Barb 5 / Rogue 8): ASI: Str +2 → 18
Level 14 (Barb 5 / Rogue 9): Feature: Supreme Sneak
Level 15 (Barb 5 / Rogue 10): ASI → Feat: Durable (Con +1 → 19)
Level 16 (Barb 5 / Rogue 11): Feature: Reliable Talent
Level 17 (Barb 5 / Rogue 12): ASI: Con +1 → 20, Int +1 → 10