PDA

View Full Version : D&D Orbital Strike



Mad Wizard
2007-05-18, 04:13 PM
So, I recently felt like creating a way to do an orbital strike in D&D. Cometfall does damage based on the distance it falls, so if I put it 100 km up, it will do about 65,616d6 damage. There were several issues with getting it working, though.

The way I went about it is creating an intelligent wondrous item. I made it capable of speech, and, because it's intelligent, I cast a permanent Rary's Telepathic Bond between me and it. Now I have a way of telling it what to do. The next issue is targeting it. For one thing, Cometfall has to be cast over a surface. For this, I added a Wall of Force item that the intelligent item can activate. I can cast the Cometfall right above it. The magic item that casts the Cometfall also casts Disintegrate on the Wall of Force, so the comet falls past where the wall used to be. To actually give it a location to target, I gave it a Discern Location item and a continuous Clairaudience/Clairvoyance item that I carry around.

The only other things to solve were getting the item up there, making it move fast enough to stay in orbit, and the comet burning up in atmosphere. To get it up there, I simply used greater teleport after casting overland flight and Protection from Energy: cold on myself, and putting on my Necklace of Adaptation. I teleport up, and cast Time Stop. The description of Time Stop says that it actually makes you move very fast. So, while time stopped, I fly forward, and then throw the item in the last round. When time stop ends, it will be going fast enough to stay up. To protect the comet from burning up, I added another item that casts Energy Immunity: Fire on the comet.

With all this set up, all I need to do is tell the item to drop a comet, and about 110 rounds later, 65,616d6 damage! (for added fun, make it a maximized Cometfall :smallbiggrin: ). Are there any problems with this that I missed?

Fax Celestis
2007-05-18, 04:19 PM
You forgot the sunder attempt on the earth.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-18, 04:23 PM
Well, I don't see how you will get it to home in. It knows where stuff is when you want, but those 110 rounds will have things move around, so unless you attack a building, it will miss 99.9% of the time.

And as was said before, the earth will blow up.

The White Knight
2007-05-18, 04:23 PM
Wall of Force creates vertical planes of force, and cannot create a 'surface' for your Cometfall, as far as I know.

EDIT: How about some immovable rods supporting a Wall of Iron? :smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2007-05-18, 04:27 PM
Wall of Force creates vertical planes of force, and cannot create a 'surface' for your Cometfall, as far as I know.

In a gravityless environment, "up" is subjective.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-18, 04:27 PM
That can be fixed by making the comets fire horizontally, where gravity would then pull the comets to earth.

Mad Wizard
2007-05-18, 04:32 PM
Well, I don't see how you will get it to home in. It knows where stuff is when you want, but those 110 rounds will have things move around, so unless you attack a building, it will miss 99.9% of the time.

And as was said before, the earth will blow up.

Yeah, I realize that. This is mainly meant to take out buildings and the like.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-18, 04:34 PM
Still, by the time and level you can do this, enemy mages inside those buildings could create a wall of force, or just dispel it before it reaced them.

Unless you attack tribes of warrior orcs that are all conveniently level 12 fighters.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-18, 04:37 PM
Still, by the time and level you can do this, enemy mages inside those buildings could create a wall of force, or just dispel it before it reaced them.

Unless you attack tribes of warrior orcs that are all conveniently level 12 fighters.

They'd have to know it was coming. Besides, you can't dodge a sunder attempt on the planet.

Of course, it'd be pretty hilarious to be a rogue at point of impact and make your Reflex save.

Wizard: "I blow up the earth with a comet of doom!"
Rogue: "I dodge."
Wizard: "..."

the_tick_rules
2007-05-18, 04:37 PM
what's the radius of the spell? does it change based on distance or not? You may blow a small sqaure out of the multiverse but would that be it? Plus what about the max range on spells? I think's it's a undoable, but it's still a funny idea.

Jasdoif
2007-05-18, 04:38 PM
What's the listed range on Cometfall? Long?

If so, you'd need a caster level of...8,193 to get a 100km range.

EDIT: You could Enlarge the spell to reduce the caster level needed to 4,096, I guess....

Fax Celestis
2007-05-18, 04:41 PM
What's the listed range on Cometfall? Long?

If so, you'd need a caster level of...8,193 to get a 100km range.

EDIT: You could Enlarge the spell to reduce the caster level needed to 4,096, I guess....

One could (theoretically) assume that Cometfall, as a Conjuration (Creation) effect, is therefore nonmagical and can go outside of range.

ZebulonCrispi
2007-05-18, 04:43 PM
Here's an interesting thought.

You say 100km up, but why stop there? That's not even out of the atmosphere. Drop it from, say, the moon's orbit. Physics-wise, that doesn't take a whole lot more effort to reach than 100km. Rules-wise, it now does a whopping total of 1,583,577,856d6 damage. Maximized, that's over nine billion damage.

How much HP does the Earth have, again? We can still drop it from farther out if we have to.

de-trick
2007-05-18, 04:50 PM
why stop at the moon go from another planet then you could have 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999d6 or more

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-18, 04:51 PM
The range is how far from you it starts. It can fall an infinite distance. And if sent it from the moon, how would it reach Earth? There is no gravity in space.

Small objects like that would begin to orbit the moon, not Earth.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-18, 04:55 PM
So send it from the moon's distance away, but on the opposite side of the earth than the moon is currently on.

Solo
2007-05-18, 04:56 PM
The range is how far from you it starts. It can fall an infinite distance. And if sent it from the moon, how would it reach Earth? There is no gravity in space.


Is, um, physics different where you live?

If what you say is true, how does the moon orbit the earth, without there being any gravity in space?

Remember, the force of gravity is inversely proportional to the distance squared.

The gravity of Earth is weaker the further out you go, but it never disappears.



Small objects like that would begin to orbit the moon, not Earth.

If you fired it at the right angle, it would go around the moon and slingshot down to earth.

Alternatively, you could cast Reverse Gravity on the moon followed by Cometfall.

(You're a level 4000+ wizard, after all.)

Fax Celestis
2007-05-18, 04:57 PM
The range is how far from you it starts. It can fall an infinite distance. And if sent it from the moon, how would it reach Earth? There is no gravity in space.

Small objects like that would begin to orbit the moon, not Earth.

Only if not given sufficient force to break orbit.

goat
2007-05-18, 05:18 PM
If it's a standard comet, it'll max out at somewhere under 70km/s. Probably wouldn't even give the planet enough kick to shift the axis.

To destroy the planet, you'd need something coming in at that speed, moon sized.

Most comets are a good whack slower, and an awful lot smaller.

/studying for a planetary science exam

ocato
2007-05-18, 05:25 PM
Moon sized is a bit much. Maybe like, Rhode Island sized. What with dust clouds and so on.

goat
2007-05-18, 05:28 PM
Something smaller might do some decent damage, could even melt a good percentage of the surface, maybe even kick some mass into escape trajectory, but we're talking destruction here. That takes a lot of energy.

belboz
2007-05-18, 05:29 PM
You can't start it farther out than the moon; it'll bang into the moon's crystal sphere.

SurlySeraph
2007-05-18, 05:30 PM
*sound of catgirls splattering*

Of course, if you make it fall from farther away from the Earth than the moon is, then it would sort of be an exorbital strike. Orbital strikes have to be close enough to be in orbit around the Earth. Hmmm... could you do something like putting a contingent Improved Haste on the comet to make it hit faster after being called down? Or does Improved Haste not work that way?

Arbitrarity
2007-05-18, 05:43 PM
Use explosive apocalypse from the sky!

Renx
2007-05-18, 05:51 PM
You still have to hit what you're going after, and if you actually want to create something that's going to fall for 100 km, you're going to miss. Period. Your character has no reason to account for the rotation of [game world], and even if it's bloody Discworld I'm willing to bet your character never hit anything 100km away.

If any character really wants to try, he'd better roll at least three consecutive nat-20s. Otherwise, the DM decides where it falls. Assuming a non-level-20 wizard, any HQ of any law-upholding organization (and/or wizards' guild) should do nicely. That'll teach him to try to kill catgirls next time.

Oh, and dropping stuff from orbit? You'll need a nice quantum computer for that to account for everything. And to answer the eventual claim that "it's magic", let me respond with "Show me a spell that has 'can hit targets over 100 miles away with <any sort of> precision' and I'll show you a spell that's not allowed in my campaign."

//Edit1: Yes, I'm sort of a B.A.Felton in deciding what goes and what doesn't, can't you tell? ;)

goat
2007-05-18, 05:55 PM
You see, the essential problem is, you're trying to use comet strike to build an orbiting death weapon. But comets have Heliocentric orbits rather than Geocentric ones.

You can have an orbiting death weapon, in that it does the spells, and it's in orbit, but the comet itself would be coming from somewhere else.

Of course, some sort of "Rods from God" system would be more than possible. You need something with the Distant shot feat and some sort of super-vision in geostationary orbit and some way of telling it where to shoot, then you just give it a load of metal rods to hurl down from orbit.

Solo
2007-05-18, 05:57 PM
True Strike?


There's no reason why anyone with a Int score of over 18 shouldn't be able to deduce that the earth revolves about an axis. If Galileo could do it...

Renx
2007-05-18, 06:02 PM
There's no reason why anyone with a Int score of over 18 shouldn't be able to deduce that the earth revolves about an axis. If Galileo could do it...

That's just silly. Even if your character is a navigator and/or astrologer, if you just up and say "My character knows that Oerth revolves around its axis, the moon revolves around Oerth and the Oerth revolves around the sun," you'll be met with harsh laughter, a lynch mob and 1d6 burning damage per round.

//Edit1: Let me rephrase that to answer the proposition better. If you have an Int of 18, you're well-versed in the histories of man(/elf/dwarf)kind, logical analysis and the great works of famous philosophers and scientists... all who probably claim Oerth is flat. Therefore, you would be much more likely to claim just that... and miss the stationary dragon by 300 miles.

Jasdoif
2007-05-18, 06:02 PM
True Strike?Hmm. What's the range increment on a comet, anyway?

goat
2007-05-18, 06:07 PM
But if you thought the Earth was flat, you'd never try and build an orbiting death weapon!

Solo
2007-05-18, 06:12 PM
That's just silly. Even if your character is a navigator and/or astrologer, if you just up and say "My character knows that Oerth revolves around its axis, the moon revolves around Oerth and the Oerth revolves around the sun," you'll be met with harsh laughter, a lynch mob and 1d6 burning damage per round.

The solution to that?

Celerity+Cloudkill

Follow up by mathematical analysis on the orbits and periods of the moon, sun, and various heavenly bodies that proves the earth revolves and all. (I'm assuming the beyond epic level wizard is an elf or something to make the observations.)


//Edit1: Let me rephrase that to answer the proposition better. If you have an Int of 18, you're well-versed in the histories of man(/elf/dwarf)kind, logical analysis and the great works of famous philosophers and scientists... all who probably claim Oerth is flat. Therefore, you would be much more likely to claim just that... and miss the stationary dragon by 300 miles.
So factor that in the second time you cast the spell.

But really, it wouldn't work like that; even if you've been taught one thing, it doesn't mean you couldn't break with tradition.

How do you think we learned that the earth is round?

Seffbasilisk
2007-05-18, 06:13 PM
That's just silly. Even if your character is a navigator and/or astrologer, if you just up and say "My character knows that Oerth revolves around its axis, the moon revolves around Oerth and the Oerth revolves around the sun," you'll be met with harsh laughter, a lynch mob and 1d6 burning damage per round.

Actually, I believe by D&D rules, it's impossible to burn someone at the stake above a certain level.

The rope burns faster.

Unless you count the rope to be part of the burnees equipment, but he'd then 'drop' it from his equipment as a free action and it'd burn.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-18, 06:14 PM
Does comet strike require an attack roll? If not, is it not a "hits where directed"?

And from CLx100 miles away, Apocalypse from the sky!

Affecting CLx100 mile radius (all within), 10d6 damage of any type.

9'th level. Casting time 1 day.

Take 3d6 wis, 4d6 con damage (or so), and requires an artifact as a material component.


We assume, of course, the earth actually rotates. Furthermore, as you come from the earth, your velocity is the same as that of the earth (as conservation of angular momentumn seems not to apply, or flying up, then down, would cause your position to change), and therefore, a created comet would have the same velocity, thus targeting directly below itself. (air resistence disregarded, as it seems to have no effect on fall damage)

Apocalypse from the sky is BOVD. Furthermore, with incredible cheese, see the explosive metamagic feat.

Renx
2007-05-18, 06:16 PM
But if you thought the Earth was flat, you'd never try and build an orbiting death weapon!

Why on Oerth not? Thing falls from high above ==> thing makes lots of damage. Easy equation, as long as you have any ranks in Knowledge (astronomy) and/or Knowledge (astrology). Just that your calculations would be all wrong when you make the spell, therefore you'll need to make a NEW spell every time you want to test it. And, since you're perfecting an old research, you'll be using n*1,80 gp+time on the research each time you redo the spell (you'll need to check, recheck and test your math every time).

Renx
2007-05-18, 06:17 PM
Does comet strike require an attack roll? If not, is it not a "hits where directed"?

And from CLx100 miles away, Apocalypse from the sky!

Affecting CLx100 mile radius, 10d6 damage of any type.

9'th level. Casting time 1 day.

Take 3d6 wis, 4d6 con damage (or so), and requires an artifact as a material component.

Um... assuming that's an actual spell and you didn't just make those up then sure, by all means, cast the spell. 10d6 sounds fair ^_^

Renx
2007-05-18, 06:18 PM
Actually, I believe by D&D rules, it's impossible to burn someone at the stake above a certain level.

The rope burns faster.

Unless you count the rope to be part of the burnees equipment, but he'd then 'drop' it from his equipment as a free action and it'd burn.

1) Where are the rules for rope burning?
2) What makes you think I'm using regular rope?
3) Chains. 'nuff said.

LoopyZebra
2007-05-18, 06:19 PM
That's just silly. Even if your character is a navigator and/or astrologer, if you just up and say "My character knows that Oerth revolves around its axis, the moon revolves around Oerth and the Oerth revolves around the sun," you'll be met with harsh laughter, a lynch mob and 1d6 burning damage per round.

//Edit1: Let me rephrase that to answer the proposition better. If you have an Int of 18, you're well-versed in the histories of man(/elf/dwarf)kind, logical analysis and the great works of famous philosophers and scientists... all who probably claim Oerth is flat. Therefore, you would be much more likely to claim just that... and miss the stationary dragon by 300 miles.

If I remember things correctly, weren't the beliefs about the "flatness of the earth, it's rotation, and revolution based upon the works of a certain Greek philosopher, then later reinforced by the Catholic Church? No offense, but last I checked, Oerth lacks both Greece and Catholics. Although they have plenty of Grease. :smallbiggrin:

Now while I don't really like the idea of this (it smells of Eberron), someone who is teleporting a superweapon into orbit has some idea of orbit. Or, at least they will when their first satellite becomes a flaming chunk of falling debris. Further, once they teleport a weapon into space, who isn't to say they've been to space? The OP specified going into the orbit themselves, so, given time, they could have observed the revolution, rotation, and spherical nature of their world (the sphere part would have not required time at all, just a look at the planet, anyways).

Once they know these things, they could begin calculations to make the weapon accurate. Enchant the item so it can move in space, and voila, we have the death launcher of doom.

goat
2007-05-18, 06:20 PM
Because you'd want a NON-orbiting death weapon. You want to be able to use it all the time, so you want it over head. Everything else moves because it orbits around you.

So you'd try and throw it up and make it stay still.

Aximili
2007-05-18, 06:21 PM
Well, theoretically, he could make the thingy orbit the earth at an angular speed equal to the earth's angular speed. That way it would always hover over the same spot, and would be a sure hit as long as he shoots straight down.

There would be the slight disadvantage of having to throw the thingy directly above the spot you want to hit, and it'd be limited to work only above the equator:smallbiggrin: .

Renx
2007-05-18, 06:41 PM
If I remember things correctly, weren't the beliefs about the "flatness of the earth, it's rotation, and revolution based upon the works of a certain Greek philosopher, then later reinforced by the Catholic Church? No offense, but last I checked, Oerth lacks both Greece and Catholics. Although they have plenty of Grease. :smallbiggrin:

You have a lot of paladins, priests and servants for a lot gods who might or might not like it ^_^



Now while I don't really like the idea of this (it smells of Eberron), someone who is teleporting a superweapon into orbit has some idea of orbit. Or, at least they will when their first satellite becomes a flaming chunk of falling debris. Further, once they teleport a weapon into space, who isn't to say they've been to space? The OP specified going into the orbit themselves, so, given time, they could have observed the revolution, rotation, and spherical nature of their world (the sphere part would have not required time at all, just a look at the planet, anyways).

That's... actually a very good point. BUT, calculating all of those requires an enormous amount of information, for instance how high are you, how fast is a cometfall going at the start of its fall, how fast the Oerth rotates (for one thing, how can you be sure that you can Teleport back down in a safe place?)... an awful amount of info just based on eye-gauged information and no equations to work for you.

Now, let me address the OP ;)

So, I recently felt like creating a way to do an orbital strike in D&D. Cometfall does damage based on the distance it falls, so if I put it 100 km up, it will do about 65,616d6 damage. There were several issues with getting it working, though.

First, I'd like to see the description of Cometfall. The damage sounds like one of those 6,9 times lightspeed thingies.


The way I went about it is creating an intelligent wondrous item. I made it capable of speech, and, because it's intelligent, I cast a permanent Rary's Telepathic Bond between me and it. Now I have a way of telling it what to do. The next issue is targeting it. For one thing, Cometfall has to be cast over a surface. For this, I added a Wall of Force item that the intelligent item can activate. I can cast the Cometfall right above it. The magic item that casts the Cometfall also casts Disintegrate on the Wall of Force, so the comet falls past where the wall used to be. To actually give it a location to target, I gave it a Discern Location item and a continuous Clairaudience/Clairvoyance item that I carry around.

Okay, assuming (really big assumptions here) that Cometfall lands where you want it to, the item actually has enough levels+crafted feats to cast it at any distance and you're not continuously dazed by the positioning information going around...


The only other things to solve were getting the item up there, making it move fast enough to stay in orbit, and the comet burning up in atmosphere. To get it up there, I simply used greater teleport after casting overland flight and Protection from Energy: cold on myself, and putting on my Necklace of Adaptation. I teleport up, and cast Time Stop. The description of Time Stop says that it actually makes you move very fast. So, while time stopped, I fly forward, and then throw the item in the last round. When time stop ends, it will be going fast enough to stay up. To protect the comet from burning up, I added another item that casts Energy Immunity: Fire on the comet.

...okay. Now, tell me the exact steps you took to establish 1) the proper height+speed for geostationary orbit, 2) rotation speed of <planet>, 3) estimating your running speed so you don't throw it, say, into the sun, 4) how it moves around in space, 5) how you manage to make it stay synchronous to you (as it has to be, for you to even try to use it, otherwise it'll just circle the <planet> in a random orbit, being useful to you about 1/40th of the time.

Also, I'd love to see the spell-setup required for the item and you to actually be able to cast spells according to Discern Location+telepathy... and I see you've used items. So it's an intelligent item that can use other items? How do you make sure it stays loyal to you?


With all this set up, all I need to do is tell the item to drop a comet, and about 110 rounds later, 65,616d6 damage! (for added fun, make it a maximized Cometfall :smallbiggrin: ). Are there any problems with this that I missed?

I think I found a few :P

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-18, 06:45 PM
Cometfall's damage is capped--it can do no more than 15 or 20d6 damage, I believe, damage-by-caster-level aside.

Solo
2007-05-18, 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Wizard View Post
The only other things to solve were getting the item up there, making it move fast enough to stay in orbit, and the comet burning up in atmosphere. To get it up there, I simply used greater teleport after casting overland flight and Protection from Energy: cold on myself, and putting on my Necklace of Adaptation. I teleport up, and cast Time Stop. The description of Time Stop says that it actually makes you move very fast. So, while time stopped, I fly forward, and then throw the item in the last round. When time stop ends, it will be going fast enough to stay up. To protect the comet from burning up, I added another item that casts Energy Immunity: Fire on the comet.
...okay. Now, tell me the exact steps you took to establish 1) the proper height+speed for geostationary orbit, 2) rotation speed of <planet>, 3) estimating your running speed so you don't throw it, say, into the sun, 4) how it moves around in space, 5) how you manage to make it stay synchronous to you (as it has to be, for you to even try to use it, otherwise it'll just circle the <planet> in a random orbit, being useful to you about 1/40th of the time.

My solution involves inventing calculus...

The Glyphstone
2007-05-18, 06:49 PM
Wouldn't it just be easier to customize an Epic spell?

And of course, the whole thing comes apart in any sort of "unconventional" setting, one where the world might not orbit anything, or even be spherical...Discworld for example, or that odd CG/NG plane where one half is upside down in the other half's sky...

Eh, who cares. While we're at it - let's have a Hulking Hurler catch it midflight,then throw it for more damage...

Arbitrarity
2007-05-18, 06:49 PM
My solution involves 38 intelligence, and thereby intuiting the nature of my existence, thereby comprehending calculus, nuclear, and quantum physics.

Therefore, I create anti-osmium. :smalltongue:

Major Creation FTW!

Solo
2007-05-18, 06:51 PM
You, sir, win.

Renx
2007-05-18, 06:57 PM
If you can make osmium, you don't need an orbital strike.

LoopyZebra
2007-05-18, 06:59 PM
You have a lot of paladins, priests and servants for a lot gods who might or might not like it ^_^

I'll concede the point. But, Catholic dogma is significantly different enough than any of the Greyhawk deities to make a case against it. Then again, you could make a case for it based on how close they are.


That's... actually a very good point. BUT, calculating all of those requires an enormous amount of information, for instance how high are you, how fast is a cometfall going at the start of its fall, how fast the Oerth rotates (for one thing, how can you be sure that you can Teleport back down in a safe place?)... an awful amount of info just based on eye-gauged information and no equations to work for you.

Given the presence of rudimentary telescopes (the Spyglass in the PHB) and the presence of magic that refines or creates items, and divination magic, it's also not far-fetched to say that someone could have accurate measurements (of the planet, of the orbit, of their time stop, of the comet, etc.). I'm not exactly sure on which spell combo would work in this particular situation, but I'm relatively sure it could be done.

Further, we have equations now because people developed them. It should be noted that without too much cheese, the wizard is essentially working by themselves (or possibly with a small team) to develop these. Assuming that he's one of the longer lived races, you have 200-700 years to develop the equations you need. One could also make a demiplane which is more resistant to time passage in which to do the research, or summon some critters to help, research a spell that does math, etc.

Based on that, it's not that far-fetched to say that a wizard could develop the proper math to put it in orbit. Would I allow it? Never. But it's reasonable that it could be done.

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-18, 07:00 PM
No, Glyph, lets have a hulking hurler epic-level wizard cast an epic-spell that causes the object to burrow into whatever it just hit then violently explode. There we go, destroying the planet with a comet.

EDIT: Renx. My entire counter-argument can be summed up as such..

Cast Commune. Ask Overdeity #1, who made the plane, what it's exact measurements are. He tells you.

Solo
2007-05-18, 07:04 PM
Assuming that he's one of the longer lived races, you have 200-700 years to develop the equations you need.
Or forever, if you are an Elan.

Rincewind
2007-05-18, 07:11 PM
You forgot the sunder attempt on the earth.

Da bum da bum das cass!!! :biggrin:

Renx
2007-05-18, 07:20 PM
EDIT: Renx. My entire counter-argument can be summed up as such..

Cast Commune. Ask Overdeity #1, who made the plane, what it's exact measurements are. He tells you.

Um... first, you'll need a cleric of said deity. Second, the cleric will have to be willing to cast such spell AND ask your possibly-very-sacriligeous question. That's a lot of 'if's but it can be done.

And, quoting from 'Commune', You contact your deity—or agents thereof —and ask questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no. Note 'or agents thereof'. You're not very likely to get the actual Overlord #1 on-line for your silly questions... AND you'll have to phrase them to yes/no. Not that great a plan.

//Edit1: The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions. The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes. If you lag, discuss the answers, or go off to do anything else, the spell ends. Very, very doubtful that you'll get anything constructive out of that.

goat
2007-05-18, 07:24 PM
In theory, getting into orbit in D&D is easier than in real life, but takes longer.

Fly ascends at 30ft per round, or 5ft/sec. To get into "space", at about 60 miles, will take some 17.6 hours, but a necklace of adaptation and something to keep you warm (shouldn't be hard to create something like that) should be more than enough to get you there without problem. With teleport it's even easier.

Renx
2007-05-18, 07:26 PM
In theory, getting into orbit in D&D is easier than in real life, but takes longer.

Fly ascends at 30ft per round, or 5ft/sec. To get into "space", at about 60 miles, will take some 17.6 hours, but a necklace of adaptation and something to keep you warm (shouldn't be hard to create something like that) should be more than enough to get you there without problem. With teleport it's even easier.

I might argue that Fly is an Air Element spell, wouldn't work in space and starts to sputter and fade as you leave the <planet>'s magical field, anyway. There are several precedents for such, though I'm not sure if any survived the transition to 3.5.

Grizzled Gryphon
2007-05-18, 07:28 PM
You would have to start it in the atmosphere, becuase in order to get enough momentum from something that small to get the damage you need, it would have to be moving so fast it would impact on the atmosphere. Now, if the object was big enough, then that wouldn't matter (and that is why gigantic meteors are dangerous), while the small ones either burn up in the atmosphere (these are the ones moving slow enough to peirce the atmosphere), or never get into the atmosphere. These "skip" off the atmosphere, and either fly off back into space, or lose enough speed to fall through the atmosphere, and thus not do any real damage.

As the comet created is only ten feet across or less, it will be slowed to terminal velocity (60 mph) due to friction, and thus won't do much more than the listed damage. The only reason that same friction wouldn't destroy it outright is the immunity to fire. Even so, all the damage isn't heat; it is also from "impacting" the air. So, give it some (serious) damage reduction to compensate.

You can find pictures of craters made by small objects, and none of them are very impressive. The kind of damage you are talking aobut here is the kind that leaves craters like the one in Arizona. That was at least 100 feet across, probably bigger according to a lot of astronomers. Naturally, a lot of physicists have varying projection on the size of the object vs its probable speed and its angle of impact and blah blah blah. Who knows? They may actually have some idea in the future.

Now, the only reason any of this is even a possible problem with this spell is it is a conjuration. If it was, say, evocation, then all of htis wouldn't matter. But, you are "making" a ball of ice and rock appear and fall on an area.

Oh, and the atronomical calculations needed to determine where it would fall from orbit, never mind the ones needed to AIM it, are truly horendous.

Just some thoughts.

EDIT: Of course, you could get the targeting done (relatively) easily with a carefully worded wish.

Solo
2007-05-18, 07:29 PM
Greater Teleportation would work.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-18, 07:35 PM
Actually, a limited wish would cover the aim, as limited wish is said to be able to make a next attack automatically hit.

A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things.

Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw.
A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal (but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell). When a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost or 300 XP, whichever is more. When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component.

XP Cost
300 XP or more (see above).


1 year life energy? WTF? 300 xp, or 3725 gp for a scroll? For an auto-kill?!

Are you STUPID?!

I target... that dragon over there. The one I used discern location on. The rock smashes his cave, and kills him instantly. He's CR 26. Therefore, I recoup my XP, and a lot more. Or, I use the scroll, and get his treasure.

Applies to any CR appropriate encounter.

Renx
2007-05-18, 07:36 PM
Actually, a limited wish would cover the aim, as limited wish is said to be able to make a next attack automatically hit.

Meh, a limited wish per attack? One year life energy cost or a huge GP cost? Not really affordable, IMO.

//Edit1: Blah, stupid me. Stuck in 2nd edition thought. No life energy cost. But it's not an automatic hit... the spell description says such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack. Doesn't really qualify...

Solo
2007-05-18, 07:38 PM
Since when does limited wish drain life energy?

As for the GP cost, just kill a dragon for money. You're a superepic wizard if you want to do a comet fall like the OP suggested. GP is the least of your problems.

Renx
2007-05-18, 07:40 PM
Since when does limited wish drain life energy?

As for the GP cost, just kill a dragon for money. You're a superepic wizard if you want to do a comet fall like the OP suggested. GP is the least of your problems.

Yes, I know. Stuck in 2nd edition thought, etc.

You'll start to run out of dragons eventually.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-18, 07:42 PM
Everything about the right CR will work. But at that point of course, the DM folds up the screen, and says you win.

Cause slaughtering NPC's from above, devils, demons, etc, is just stupid.

On the other hand, this tactic now appears to be verified as legal, as long as you use limited wish!

Actually, first let's see if someone else disagrees.

Solo
2007-05-18, 07:44 PM
Yes, I know. Stuck in 2nd edition thought, etc.

You'll start to run out of dragons eventually.

There are many many material planes out there....:smallamused:

Renx
2007-05-18, 07:45 PM
Everything about the right CR will work. But at that point of course, the DM folds up the screen, and says you win.

Cause slaughtering NPC's from above, devils, demons, etc, is just stupid.

On the other hand, this tactic now appears to be verified as legal, as long as you use limited wish!

Actually, first let's see if someone else disagrees.

Um... have you not been paying attention at all? No, it won't work. A 38 Int doesn't give you anything automatically. And... wait, am I just accepting a 38 Int? How did you get that in the first place? You can intuit all you want, but you'll still miss every time.

//Edit1: I've asked for clarification on a lot of things that you can't "just intuit", no matter what your Int. Read my earlier posts, especially http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2606728&postcount=40

Arbitrarity
2007-05-18, 07:53 PM
Once you can make a DC 60 intelligence check, come back.

Old grey elf wizard 20.

Intelligence: 38 (18+2(racial)+5(level)+2(age)+5(tome)+6(headband))

Attempts to come up with understanding of life, the universe, and everything faster than familiar. UMD's a bead of karma, has a green, and an orange ioun stone, as well as a luckstone.

Since the check is opposed, applies CL 25 Moment of prescience to it, as well as +14 from int, and +2 from luck and ioun stone. Does this a couple dozen times.

How much does a DC 60 intelligence check get me?

Because, guess what, no one, normally, gets better than 28. Total morons can get 16.

So what's the difference between a moron and a genius? Cube that.

And anyways, the 38 INT thing has nothing to do with the limited wish tactic! Limited wish allows an automatic hit, so take 'er into orbit, limited wish, and fire away. It hits.

At level 4000, 38 is nothing. 2000 is easily within reach.

Now, the legality also requires an interpretation of the definition of the "range" factor. Since that is defined in the PHB, and no part of the spell effect can exceed the range, this dies. But, we have a counterexample, in major creation!. A conjuration [creation] spell of close range, according to this interpretation, it is unable to leave a radius of 75 feet from a level 20 caster! That's... odd. Worse, minor creation has a range of 0 feet, meaning it doesn't exist unless it intersects the caster's body!

Solo
2007-05-18, 07:53 PM
to cast Cometfall at the level the OP wanted, you'd have to be a level 4000 wizard.

Is it unreasonable for someone like that to have a 38 int. and know astrophysics?

At that level, you'd be more powerful than the gods themselves...

Renx
2007-05-18, 08:02 PM
Once you can make a DC 60 intelligence check, come back.

Old grey elf wizard 20.

Intelligence: 38 (18+2(racial)+5(level)+2(age)+5(tome)+6(headband))

Attempts to come up with understanding of life, the universe, and everything faster than familiar. UMD's a bead of karma, has a green, and an orange ioun stone, as well as a luckstone.

Since the check is opposed, applies CL 25 Moment of prescience to it, as well as +14 from int, and +2 from luck and ioun stone. Does this a few times.

How much does a DC 60 intelligence check get me?

Not that much. Spells, sure. Knowledge, sure. Ways to find out, sure.

What makes you think the check is opposed? You don't have anyone to pit against.

The DC for 'really tough questions', which I'd assume to be in par with solving a riddle, or pretty much anything lower than a doctoral thesis, is 30. You'll need to solve at least 20-30 DC 100+ rolls to even begin to create the calculations needed for that. And before you get started on the rules lawyering, you're talking about advances and leaps of intuition of incredible heights.

You'll still need at LEAST 100 years to first research HOW to do anything, and then you'll have to guess a lot of things. And THEN you'll have to create test environments and probably still end up losing control of it and becoming hunted all over the world because of your mad blasting artefact :P

//Edit1: And even if you could 'guess' a lot of universal constants, the calculus needed, and ways of estimating everything needed, you'll still need a *lot* of time. I'd say you need to make 10x DC 100 checks. For every check made/missed, you use 10 years. Now you have the basic tools for testing. Now it's just DC 30-50, so you'll get those automatically. Still 20+ tests, all taking at least a year to prepare (spells to create, refine, test etc., also if you're a level 20 grey elf, you'll most certainly have society needs, unless you become a hermit which again makes your tests even more risky... now you're verging on becoming insane)

Arbitrarity
2007-05-18, 08:19 PM
I'm going against my familiar. Secondly, considering that no human could EVER, EVER get anywhere close to that, I find your description of the DC's rather... high. Great leaps of intuition in one year, prehaps. On the other, hand, I'm an elf. Therefore, I live to be over 100 pretty easily.

The DC for really tough questions is for knowledge. You can put ranks in knowledge. Should I put ranks in knowledge, and treat this as a knowledge (matematics) check? If so, I can get DC 100 pretty easily, without custom magic items. If I have those, DC 119.

Intelligence checks...

Well, DC 60 is the equivalent of being able to bash through a door of ADAMANTINE.

And, simply put, in 1 level, with epic brokenness, I can get my intelligence to 166. (actually, higher, but I don't want help from rituals)

So. About that check. Does a +105 work?

Wow, epic really is broken.

EDIT: Which is what I said, dolt. You put out RP restrictions, which actually don't matter, because you're ignoring the main argument, which has been won. This is merely an example of epic borkedness. Furthermore, your arbitrary (:smallbiggrin: ) restrictions on what can and can't be done are the equivalent of DM fiat.

You see, when you optimise for NOT IN A GAME, I.E. THEROETICAL OPTIMIZATION, you don't care about DM fiat. Why? Because you don't try to get it past a DM! Duh! Should all we care about is optimization, every moron will go and buy a copy of serpent kingdoms, and fiendish codex!

I mean, billions of d6? You think this isn't theroetical?! :smallfurious:

Renx
2007-05-18, 08:20 PM
...if you're at level 4000, you can just make spells for empowered extended maximized quickened still silent cometfall. Then make a wand that shoots them. Don't bother going into orbit or putting stuff there, your DM... no wait, you won't have a DM in this dream world of yours, since no self-respecting DM would even be listening to this.

Happy-land for D&D players, where everything works like the player wants it to. I like it. Sad thing is, it's really boring to play and it gets lonely real fast.

Once you come back to Oerth, we can talk. I actually wouldn't mind playing through this with someone who actually knew what he was doing and could get past all my tripwires. Then I can just say "thanks!", take his creation and make him the next BBEG in a game.

Renx
2007-05-18, 08:24 PM
The DC for really tough questions is for knowledge. You can put ranks in knowledge. Should I put ranks in knowledge, and treat this as a knowledge (matematics) check? If so, I can get DC 100 pretty easily, without custom magic items. If I have those, DC 119.

*SNIP*
So. About that check. Does a +105 work?.

You get the knowledge bonuses for *calculating*, not the testing, sorry. And I'm not saying you actually need to make all the checks, just that if you don't, something WILL go haywire ;)

You'll be working alone, no support whatsoever from the existing world, creating from nothing the equivalent of about 600 doctoral theses. (Let's just start with Galileo and proceed from there).

PS: and no, the limited wish thing won't work. The astrophysical calculations are nowhere near the category.


EDIT: Which is what I said, dolt. You put out RP restrictions, which actually don't matter, because you're ignoring the main argument, which has been won. This is merely an example of epic borkedness. Furthermore, your arbitrary (:smallbiggrin: ) restrictions on what can and can't be done are the equivalent of DM fiat.

You see, when you optimise for NOT IN A GAME, I.E. THEROETICAL OPTIMIZATION, you don't care about DM fiat. Why? Because you don't try to get it past a DM! Duh! Should all we care about is optimization, every moron will go and buy a copy of serpent kingdoms, and fiendish codex!

I mean, billions of d6? You think this isn't theroetical?! :smallfurious:

Have I ever mentioned that it's really annoying to read replies to posts that are in your original post, above my reply?

Anyway, you lost already. Cometfall caps at 20d6.

Ah, 'theoretical optimization', meaning what can be done when there's no such thing as game balance or a pesky DM in the way of your twickewy. Okay, I'll just file this thread under the same joke category as pun-pun, the arbitrer thing and osmium.

Mad Wizard
2007-05-18, 08:28 PM
Well, my thought is that you don't need the comet to stay within range the entire time. As has been stated, it it conjuration (creation), so I figure it just creates it, and the range stat is just used to determine where it can originate from. As has also been stated, major creation and the like work this way, so why shouldn't cometfall?

P.S. I like the limited wish idea! Thanks!

Arbitrarity
2007-05-18, 08:28 PM
Y'know, disagreeing with something that explicity says: "allows next attack to auto hit" and claiming that the hit is too tough to make with that, would seem to be a contradiction.

The 105 is on the intelligence check. Let's see if I can boost it more.

Feel the rage of my rant! Fear it! :smallwink:

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-18, 08:29 PM
If you can cast gate, fabricate and craft portal (feat from Forgotten Realms) then you could make your own space station by level 20, assuming you know about space, and how to make a space station, etc. . . (Int DC 60)

If you can fabricate individual pieces on the ground (how it is done in real life) you could fabricate them and insert an immobile rod into the frame to make it stick in orbit. To put in space, make a gate to outer space. Onve the gate is open, baleful teleport your gear into orbit. Use mage hand to activate the immobile rods, keeping them in orbit. Once all pieces are in orbit, use telepathy (spell form) to attach the pieces together, making an airproof seal.

Then, whilst still on earth, cast major creation creating an atmosphere inside the station.

The space station is now ready for habilitation.

Assuming that the Oerth cosmology has similar astrological bodies to our own, there should be an astroid belt somewhere in the solar system, and, failing that, an oort cloud.

This is where craft portal come in. You create a large portal on the exterior of the station, permanantly open leading two way to the rock body(s).

From there, you can now live in it, scry your opponents location and using some form of telepathy drag astroids into the portal then launch them into the Oerth's orbit, possibly with the use of an intelligent magic item to callibrate.

Just my two cents.:smallbiggrin:

Renx
2007-05-18, 08:31 PM
Y'know, disagreeing with something that explicity says: "allows next attack to auto hit" and claiming that the hit is too tough to make with that, would seem to be a contradiction.

The 105 is on the intelligence check. Let's see if I can boost it more.

Feel the rage of my rant! Fear it! :smallwink:

No, it allows a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack. Your thingy isn't a creature, and creating a ball of burning rock hundreds of miles up doesn't really constitute as a 'next attack'

//Edit1: Let me rephrase that, aiming a single hit by an axe or arrow or bolt is very, VERY different than aiming a bloody comet from orbit.

Solo
2007-05-18, 08:33 PM
No, it allows a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack. Your thingy isn't a creature, and creating a ball of burning rock hundreds of miles up doesn't really constitute as a 'next attack'

You're right. Limited Wish can't do it.

Fortunately, we still have Wish.

Jasdoif
2007-05-18, 08:35 PM
to cast Cometfall at the level the OP wanted, you'd have to be a level 4000 wizard.No, it's far worse. I looked it up, and the altitude has nothing to do with the spell's range, it's specially defined in the spell text: The altitude is 5 feet per caster level above the ground (or at the top of a ceiling if one's in the way). The range only determines the ground point, and is medium.

So you'd need a caster level of 65617 to start it at 100km high. (That puts the ground range at 200km.)

The comet also falls to the ground immediately, so there's no concern over how long it takes to come down.

Renx
2007-05-18, 08:37 PM
No, it's far worse. I looked it up, and the altitude has nothing to do with the spell's range, it's specially defined in the spell text: The altitude is 5 feet per caster level above the ground (or at the top of a ceiling if one's in the way). The range only determines the ground point, and is medium.

So you'd need a caster level of 65617 to start it at 100km high. (That puts the ground range at 200km.)

The comet also falls to the ground immediately, so there's no concern over how long it takes to come down.

...ouch. unlimited acceleration, nice. Would you care to paste the entire spell description here?

Solo
2007-05-18, 08:37 PM
What the hell would be the kinetic energy of that thing?

Arbitrarity
2007-05-18, 08:39 PM
Well yeah, isn't this supposedly a joke?

Think about it for a second. Is anything designed to do a couple billion d6 a theroetical, in game, viable character?

The hulking hurler? The nasty gentleman?

And, quoting you:

You still have to hit what you're going after, and if you actually want to create something that's going to fall for 100 km, you're going to miss. Period. Your character has no reason to account for the rotation of [game world], and even if it's bloody Discworld I'm willing to bet your character never hit anything 100km away.

If any character really wants to try, he'd better roll at least three consecutive nat-20s. Otherwise, the DM decides where it falls. Assuming a non-level-20 wizard, any HQ of any law-upholding organization (and/or wizards' guild) should do nicely. That'll teach him to try to kill catgirls next time.

Oh, and dropping stuff from orbit? You'll need a nice quantum computer for that to account for everything. And to answer the eventual claim that "it's magic", let me respond with "Show me a spell that has 'can hit targets over 100 miles away with <any sort of> precision' and I'll show you a spell that's not allowed in my campaign."



D'yah think that comes under auto hits? Also, I'm aiming it, as a ranged touch attack, since I'm the caster. I choose to throw the ball at the earth, accounting for orbital dynamics, etc. I hit.

If you disagree with yourself, it shows that you're not saying "With extreme luck" in this instance, more along the lines of "As you get closer and closer to a solution, I make it harder and harder, with restrictions designed to eventually hint to you 'No, you can't do that'"

Let's see here. No longer having to account for orbital dynamics, with the instantaneous falling, we merely must boost the object high enough, when it falls instantaneously, meaning, unless we try to abuse readied actions, this should be difficult.

Renx
2007-05-18, 08:41 PM
Think about it for a second. Is anything designed to do a couple billion d6 a theroetical, in game, viable character?

It should cap at 20d6, as do most wizard spells regardless :P

Solo
2007-05-18, 08:42 PM
Polar Ray doesn't cap at 20d6, IIRC

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polarRay.htm

Are there any others?

Arbitrarity
2007-05-18, 08:46 PM
Except Horrid Wilting, polar ray, and... anything Enhanced?

Yeah, pretty much. But does it say that in the text of the spell? If not, you're houseruling for balance. Nothing wrong with that, just like everyone bans certain parts of Serpent Kingdoms.

But it is also inadmissable as an argument about the RAW legal viability of a tactic. Just like anyone would say Pun-Pun is illegal, cause he got killed first, because he couldn't of thought of his tactic, etc, he's still RAW legal.

....
2007-05-18, 08:47 PM
You can't start it farther out than the moon; it'll bang into the moon's crystal sphere.

Crystal spheres surround whole solar systems, not just individual planets.

EDIT: Spelling.

Renx
2007-05-18, 08:50 PM
Except Horrid Wilting, polar ray, and... anything Enhanced?

Yeah, pretty much. But does it say that in the text of the spell? If not, you're houseruling for balance. Nothing wrong with that, just like everyone bans certain parts of Serpent Kingdoms.

But it is also inadmissable as an argument about the RAW legal viability of a tactic. Just like anyone would say Pun-Pun is illegal, cause he got killed first, because he couldn't of thought of his tactic, etc, he's still RAW legal.

I'd still like to see the spell description. Most likely they just forgot to add a limit, assuming 'the regular', or it's mentioned somewhere else in the book. What book are we talking about, anyway?

Solo
2007-05-18, 08:52 PM
Most likely they just forgot to add a limit
RAW is RAW.

Renx
2007-05-18, 08:53 PM
RAW is RAW.

Don't leave the 'or's away from a conditional when quoting, it's bad form :P

Anyway, I can't seem to find the spell at least in crystal keep lists...

Arbitrarity
2007-05-18, 08:59 PM
Complete divine, Cleric 6 Druid 6. Miracle anyone? Or fast Prog cheese, w/e.

Interesting. It's in the Crystalkeep spell list summary, but not the descriptions.

Only text I could find so far is this:
Although it is a sixth level spell, one of the best Cleric seplls I know is Comet Fall. It is in the Complete Divine, does damage based on two factors; your caster level and the amount of space it falls. The most notable things are that it does not require an attack role as it targets 4 squares and all within it, has a Reflex save, and goes straight thru Antimagic Field, (unless you cast it within an Atimagic Filed to begin with).

Ha! *rogue uses evasion*. :smallbiggrin:

Ah, there, we have the spell text.

However, if I change my build to some cheese, like the bard/Urpriest/mystic theurge/sublime chord/mystic theurge, he can still do both.

Curses. I like my wizard :smalltongue:

Ah, there it is. I feel blind.

Renx
2007-05-18, 09:02 PM
Ah, cleric spell. That explains it. You couldn't make your wizard cast it, even :P

Cometfall(CDiv p159) (CDivErrata)+
<Conj(create), VS/DF, 1StdAct, Medium-range, Instantaneous, Ref˝, no SR>
– A 400 pound ball of rock and ice appears 10’ per level above a 10’ by 10’ target square (height is limited by the ceiling, if any). Everything in the target square takes 2d6 per 10’ that the comet fell (max 20d6) (Ref ˝) & are targeted by a Trip check at +11 (RefNeg). In addition, the broken comet fills the target square with Dense Rubble.

Solo
2007-05-18, 09:05 PM
Ah, cleric spell. That explains it. You couldn't make your wizard cast it, even :P

Cometfall(CDiv p159) (CDivErrata)+
<Conj(create), VS/DF, 1StdAct, Medium-range, Instantaneous, Ref˝, no SR>
– A 400 pound ball of rock and ice appears 10’ per level above a 10’ by 10’ target square (height is limited by the ceiling, if any). Everything in the target square takes 2d6 per 10’ that the comet fell (max 20d6) (Ref ˝) & are targeted by a Trip check at +11 (RefNeg). In addition, the broken comet fills the target square with Dense Rubble.

I think a Wish will cover it.

Or we could get a Mystic Theurge to do it.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-18, 09:09 PM
Details, details. Since it's a damage cap, that means we can't do that. Drat.

Wish the OP told us that :smallyuk:

Anyway, next big thing to try and eliminate:

Explosive apocalypse from the sky!

Dealing 1d6 per 10 ft moved back, and with a radius of a few 100 miles, this spell easily deals over 120000d6 damage!

However, due to errata on arcane thesis, this build no longer works pre-epic. I can't believe I forgot that.

I call losing the argument due to imprecise assumptions in the OP's post that carried over to my argument, as it was defined by the assumption that the spell was able to do what the OP said it did!
:smallwink:

Lyinginbedmon
2007-05-19, 04:34 AM
Ah my ventures into D&D Future may very well serve me greatly here, so I'll offer my information:

Getting into Orbit
Naturally, this is the hardest part, you need escape velocity, to the extent that you are just out of the atmosphere, and then you need to stay there. Simplest method is to have the orbital death cannon (ODC) hurled into orbit by either the infamous Hulking Hurler or a Cancer Mage with Festering Anger (An evil build, but how is this good?).
I also saw one guy that favoured a platform full on the underside of traps that cast Greater Mage Hand in concert to give speed to the platform and objects atop it, which also allowed for steadying the platform, but was limited to very small weights and was not much for repositioning.
Alternatively, we factor that there are no rules in D&D about gravity, save falling which doesn't apply to upward moving bodies. So we get a Zombie White Dragon to fly really into orbit over the course of a few minutes, carrying our ODC. Using the dragon we also get rapid repositioning.

The Weapon Itself
As previously stated, it doesn't take much smarts to realise that big rock falling from the sky = big hurt on whatever's underneath. That's largely the reason I came up with these ideas however, the big rock hurting. It'll certainly be much less suspicious if there's an increase in meteor strikes than colourful balls of magical death.
So the easiest answer is that our intelligent item (I prefer undead familiar, but to each his own, mine's much cheaper though ;)) casts a nice hi-level Major Creation. At 20th level, this produces 20 cubic feet of stone for 20 hours.
A quick Telekinesis to shove it in the right direction, and the whole thing makes a big mess down below. Since you are connected to your familiar/item, you can teleport up more stone for it to use as material components, or you can teleport up the stone block itself and save time.
The only task then is to work out the weight of the block, which will certainly be more than 1 lb, but at this height that's a negligible task against most targets...

Therefore, you'll have falling object damage of 1d6/increment based on the weight of the block.

The Dungeon Master's Guide has rulings on replacing the steel and iron of typical setting items with stone, but mentions no weight alteration, so we can assume that "stone" is equivalent in density to steel.
Full Plate gives us a rough estimation of a Medium-sized mass of steel, or one quarter of the Huge size a 20 cubic foot object would weigh (1 (Medium) x2 (Large) x2 (Huge) = x4), which makes it around 200 lb.

Conveniently, this is the cap of the weight chart for falling damage increments, which puts the increment at 20 ft. A kilometre is about 3280.84 ft., or about 164 increments, adding 164d6/kilometre.
That's an MAM of 164/574/984 damage per kilometre

Saph
2007-05-19, 05:51 AM
I'm going against my familiar. Secondly, considering that no human could EVER, EVER get anywhere close to that, I find your description of the DC's rather... high. Great leaps of intuition in one year, prehaps. On the other, hand, I'm an elf. Therefore, I live to be over 100 pretty easily.

The DC for really tough questions is for knowledge. You can put ranks in knowledge. Should I put ranks in knowledge, and treat this as a knowledge (matematics) check? If so, I can get DC 100 pretty easily, without custom magic items. If I have those, DC 119.

Sorry Arbitrarity, I already shot this one down in a previous thread on anti-osmium. :P

You can only put ranks in skills that exist. There's no listing in the SRD for Knowledge (mathematics), Knowledge (physics), Knowledge (astrophysics), Knowledge (orbital impacts), or Knowledge (quantum mechanics). The skills don't exist, so you can't put ranks in them.

Without ranks in a Knowledge skill, all you know is "common knowledge", or stuff with a DC 10 or lower. Somehow, I don't think that the fine points of calculating comet strikes from orbit would count as "common knowledge" in most D&D settings.

Of course, the PHB also says that you can invent new fields of study for Knowledge skills . . . with your DM's approval. So I guess you could run it by him if you like. "Hey, would you mind my character taking ranks in Knowledge (astrophysics) so that I can learn to do orbital comet strikes on dragons? Pretty please?"

Tell me how it goes. :P

- Saph

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-19, 06:10 AM
Of course, the PHB also says that you can invent new fields of study for Knowledge skills . . . with your DM's approval. So I guess you could run it by him if you like. "Hey, would you mind my character taking ranks in Knowledge (astrophysics) so that I can learn to do orbital comet strikes on dragons? Pretty please?"

Tell me how it goes. :P

- Saph

That is awesome.

EDIT: Sigg'd!

Telok
2007-05-19, 07:51 AM
Orbital death toys? Easy, old, unimpressive. Some of us used to play Spelljammer.

Items: Instant Fortress, Bottle of Air, Decanter of Endless Water, Mirror of Mental Prowess, Necklace of Adaptation.

Spells: Greater Teleport, Contact Other Plane, Resist Energy/Protection from Energy, Major Creation, Mud to Rock, Teleport Object.

Contact to find the spot you need to be in order to orbit or stay up. Teleport enough mud up and solidify it to create ground. Set up the Fortress, crack your bottles, hang your mirror. Use Major Creation to make stuff, drop it by teleporting it a couple miles below you. Aim? Just practice.

Alternately if you build an airlock you can create outside and use Telekinetic Thrust to launch it.

Ranis
2007-05-19, 08:10 AM
I just wanted to point out to the OP that there are many more cost-efficient and simpler ways to destroy the Material Plane.

Telok
2007-05-19, 08:12 AM
Orbital death toys? Easy, old, unimpressive. Some of us used to play Spelljammer.

Items: Instant Fortress, Bottle of Air, Decanter of Endless Water, Mirror of Mental Prowess, Necklace of Adaptation.

Spells: Greater Teleport, Contact Other Plane, Resist Energy/Protection from Energy, Major Creation, Mud to Rock, Teleport Object.

Contact to find the spot you need to be in order to orbit or stay up. Teleport enough mud up and solidify it to create ground. Set up the Fortress, crack your bottles, hang your mirror. Use Major Creation to make stuff, drop it by teleporting it a couple miles below you. Aim? Just practice.

Alternately if you build an airlock you can create outside and use Telekinetic Thrust to launch it.

Adrius
2007-05-19, 08:13 AM
They'd have to know it was coming. Besides, you can't dodge a sunder attempt on the planet.

Of course, it'd be pretty hilarious to be a rogue at point of impact and make your Reflex save.

Wizard: "I blow up the earth with a comet of doom!"
Rogue: "I dodge."
Wizard: "..."
I just laughed SOO HARD!!

Adrius
2007-05-19, 08:36 AM
Why on Oerth not? Thing falls from high above ==> thing makes lots of damage. Easy equation, as long as you have any ranks in Knowledge (astronomy) and/or Knowledge (astrology). Just that your calculations would be all wrong when you make the spell, therefore you'll need to make a NEW spell every time you want to test it. And, since you're perfecting an old research, you'll be using n*1,80 gp+time on the research each time you redo the spell (you'll need to check, recheck and test your math every time).

Not to mention each time you recast the spell to test it, you are pelting the countryside/some poor village with giant flaming death rocks from the sky..

"Hmm, that's a miss."

Corncracker
2007-05-19, 09:09 AM
But if you thought the Earth was flat, you'd never try and build an orbiting death weapon!
You'd try to build a Stationary one.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-19, 09:20 AM
Orbital death toys? Easy, old, unimpressive. Some of us used to play Spelljammer.

Items: Instant Fortress, Bottle of Air, Decanter of Endless Water, Mirror of Mental Prowess, Necklace of Adaptation.

Spells: Greater Teleport, Contact Other Plane, Resist Energy/Protection from Energy, Major Creation, Mud to Rock, Teleport Object.

Contact to find the spot you need to be in order to orbit or stay up. Teleport enough mud up and solidify it to create ground. Set up the Fortress, crack your bottles, hang your mirror. Use Major Creation to make stuff, drop it by teleporting it a couple miles below you. Aim? Just practice.

Alternately if you build an airlock you can create outside and use Telekinetic Thrust to launch it.

This is supposed to be able to fire more then just one. From what I read, it seems like that will only shoot 1 comet per cycle, and you'll miss just about every time.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-19, 09:21 AM
I just wanted to point out to the OP that there are many more cost-efficient and simpler ways to destroy the Material Plane.

We're not trying to destroy the plane, if we were, we would deal about 65 quintillion damage to it.

We're creating orbital bombardments used to fight, not destroy Oerth.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-05-19, 09:27 AM
How about this for an idea -
-Create a flowing time plane (the one that stops time for you while you're in it), with subjective gravity, and be a warforged (which lasts forever).

- Build a box, putting two permanencied teleportation circles at each end. Make a vacuum in the box.

- Permanency expand person on yourself.

-Eat the box, without damaging it too much (hopefully you can do this once expanded). This will mean that it is now part of you, and will be in your time reference when you cast time stop.

-Buy a use-activated, at will, item of time stop. Yes, I know it's 275,400. This will prevent weird time based phenomena based on the massive speeds.

-Go into your plane. Make gravity parallel to the angle the box is at. Stop time, and teleport an object into the box. It will now keep accelerating towards the bottom of the box, and be teleported back up, as it passes through the teleportation circles. No air - no terminal velocity.

-Wait an arbitrary amount of time, refreshing the time-stop as necessary.

-On the last round of your timestop, throw up the box, cast gate to where you are aiming at, and cut off the bottom of the box. The object will then travel at an arbitrarily high speed towards your target through the gate. I have no idea what sort of crazy stuff will happen, but that object will be going very fast.

There's a rough plan; sorry it couldn't be better, but I'm tired.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-19, 10:54 AM
I doubt this actually works... what if I take Jack-of-all-trades?
:smallwink:

Not as an argument or anything, but that's a rather odd thing to think about.

"I make a knowledge (astrophysics) check!"
"You don't have ranks, so max DC 10"
"I have half a rank!"
"But knowledge (astrophysics) doesn't exist, so how can you have ranks?"
"Jack of all trades, treat all skills as if you have half a rank, in other words, trained!"
:smallcool:

Lyinginbedmon
2007-05-19, 11:31 AM
Don't mind me everyone...

Khantalas
2007-05-19, 11:54 AM
Dammit, you and your limited D&D ways. You try so hard to destroy the world. Me? I can think of ways to destroy the world at level 2.

Lyinginbedmon
2007-05-19, 12:06 PM
Dammit, you and your limited D&D ways. You try so hard to destroy the world. Me? I can think of ways to destroy the world at level 2.

I can do one better, but that's a taboo subject :smalltongue:

Khantalas
2007-05-19, 12:09 PM
Well, I can go at level 2 without exploiting loopholes in the system. No need for fancy tricks and all that.

Can you do that?

Jayabalard
2007-05-19, 01:49 PM
True Strike?


There's no reason why anyone with a Int score of over 18 shouldn't be able to deduce that the earth revolves about an axis. If Galileo could do it...
So, there were no geniuses before Galileo?

Intelligence doesn't work that way... within the past century or so, bleeding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodletting) was still recommended by the most brilliant medical minds for hundreds of different ailments, and the only one of those it actually did anything for was high blood pressure. They were brilliant, but still wrong.

Solo
2007-05-19, 02:26 PM
Just using Galileo as an example.

Indon
2007-05-19, 02:31 PM
Intelligence doesn't work that way... within the past century or so, bleeding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodletting) was still recommended by the most brilliant medical minds for hundreds of different ailments, and the only one of those it actually did anything for was high blood pressure. They were brilliant, but still wrong.

Which is really making me wonder where all this "If I can hit a sufficiently high Int check DC, I can do anything!" is coming from; it almost certainly isn't RAW, and it really doesn't strike me as a good houserule either.

Lyinginbedmon
2007-05-19, 03:17 PM
Well, I can go at level 2 without exploiting loopholes in the system. No need for fancy tricks and all that.

Can you do that?

Yes, I can, but that's not the issue in this thread. The aim of this thread is to produce a feasible and useable method of bombarding a target from orbit with reasonable accuracy and cost.

Which is really making me wonder where all this "If I can hit a sufficiently high Int check DC, I can do anything!" is coming from; it almost certainly isn't RAW, and it really doesn't strike me as a good houserule either.

For the sake of this thread, we'll probably do best by suspending this issue until such a time as we no longer require the thread for the method. In other words, we should hold off on the "there's no way they could know about it" issues until the cutting room stage :smallwink:

Illiterate Scribe
2007-05-19, 03:20 PM
Well, I can go at level 2 without exploiting loopholes in the system. No need for fancy tricks and all that.

Can you do that?

I'm intrigued. It doesn't involve filling space with quarterstaffs to the Planck scale, does it?

GoC
2007-05-19, 03:56 PM
How much damage does a falling rock do?
1d6 per 25 pounds, right?

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-19, 04:19 PM
The answer to "How could you know about it": Discern Location - The Earth. Jack-of-all-Trades with Knowledge(Stuff). If you wanna be silly about it: Miracle or Wish.

Grug
2007-05-19, 05:49 PM
Would never work for 2 reasons.

1: The Sage has said several times that the limit for the damage of falling objects is 20d6, no matter the speed or weight (Unless it's powered by Plot, of course). Also, most meteors tend to burn up in the atmosphere

Arbitrarity
2007-05-19, 06:38 PM
And, if we bother to read the description, we note cometfall caps at 20d6.

And if I'm smart enough, I know/understand a lot, even if I don't bother to do an omniscifier trick.

Anyway, we need a new orbital bombardment trick. Since falling damage caps at 20d6, we need to make a bunch of falling objects. 2000 lb falling objects.

Come to think of it, isn't falling a free action, thereby ignoring orbital dynamics anyway?

And before catgirls are slaughtered, remember 2 things. 1: RAW. 2: We can bypass standard falling physics by just using 200 ft drops.

Ok, so, we have 2 possibilities. We can drop 1 lb objects 1400 ft, for 20d6 per object, or 2000 lb objects 10 ft. Combinations of the above also apply, such as 200 ft drops of 200 lb objects.

Therefore, for the most carnage on the most efficient scale, use fly or a phantom steed, get 1400 ft up in the air (6 double moves for the steed, 35 double moves for overland flight), cast reverse gravity over the target, throw 4096 1 lb shrunkenobjects into the reverse gravity, speak the command word, and dismiss the reverse gravity. Bam. Impact for 80000d6.

If you care to worry less about orbital dynamics, increase the mass of the obects. Minimum, 10 ft up, empty out a type 4 bag of holding, for 60000d6.

Prep time: very impractical. Take the number of 3rd level or higher spells/day you get (no specialization counting, except transmutation) and take the number of dumped objects/number of 3rd level spells. Maybe hire some help, but without, minimum time for a wizard is (using the borked 38 INT build above), with transmutation specialization: (items)/52. So with 1 day prep time, you could, with that build, drop 1040d6 worth of stuff.

Finding the objects is also problematic. Major creation can temporarily work, if you are willing to use a whole lot of spells, and you need to extend it with a pretty good CL. Considering also that you want many objects, I recommend Fabricate. If it can fletch arrows, it can make a bunch of 200 lb blocks.

CL 20, extended, for 40 hr's of cheap mineral. Make a bunch of copper. 20 cubic feet of copper. I'll try to find a density for copper in the SRD, but without, I'll go with catgirl slaughter. Cu ft of copper is about 27000cm^3, so 540000cm^2, at about 9g per cm^3, for 4860000gm, or slightly more than 10000 lb. Fabricate, and either cut into large (then shrunk) blocks of 2000 lb (5, for 100d6, from 10 ft), or shrink, then fabricate into a bunch of bits 1/40'th the size of a CP.

This is not designed for in game use. It kills catgirls, and is wholy impractical in many instances. For those wishing for more damage, I recommend throwing Oerth at it (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=142565).

This disclaimer is for the benefit of people claiming me to be ignoring the DM. I know I am. This isn't meant to be used. Furthermore, I apologize for patronizing anyone who knows that I know that. :smallbiggrin:

Hopefully you take it in good humor.

Lead also works, come to think of it. It's also more of a "base metal" than copper, and less valuable. Wall of stone as well.

Oh yeah, my DM assumed when I said "orbital strike" I meant fireball :smallyuk:

Lyinginbedmon
2007-05-19, 08:18 PM
Ahem, the 20d6 cap is for the distance, whilst the uncapped Xd6 is for weight.

So we're looking for a very heavy object (200 lb/d6 after 10 ft.) that we can easily fit onto our orbital platform, or lots of 200 lb objects to drop in concert. 200 lb is 4 times the weight of full plate armor, so we're looking at something sizeably large, about as big as a Medium-creature.

Perhaps we could use a circular process? We get a bunch of heavy human bodies from the graveyard, drop them, then use the bodies from the victims? As a bonus, we could then animate the original bodies as undead to continue the slaughter.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-19, 08:27 PM
Nope, all fall damage caps at 20d6. The uncapped is from CWar for improvised weapons. That's what the link is for.


For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

Ohhh... I see what you mean. Depending on interpretation, that does mean uncapped, if you assume that the final clause, being part of a seperate statement, is unapplied to the first. Ok, so now we just need really darn big items.

Right. Ok, the item can be gotten by the methods detailed above. I recommend wall of stone, as the stone is permanent. If you use PAO to change it into neutronium, or as the above link uses, iridium, you can get some nice damage.

How much space do we have for the weapon on the orbital platform?

Destroying the earth is harder than you have been led to believe. (http://ned.ucam.org/~sdh31/misc/destroy.html)

Lyinginbedmon
2007-05-19, 08:56 PM
Well if we use my method we can worry about how much weight a zombie white dragon can carry. Assuming we clerically Command a Dracolich or Zombie Dragon ala Draconomicon, we can get up to a 37+X Str from a Great Wyrm. I'll use the base 37 for the purpose of this analysis.

A Great Wyrm White Dragon is a Gargantuan creature, so it has a max light load of (346 (Base) x8 (Gargantuan) x4 (Tremendous strength)) 11,072 lb. We can round that down to 11,000 and assume the undead familiar clinging to it's back needs some nice personal effects :P

11000/200 = 55*1d6 = 55d6
MAM: 55/192.5/330

With the 20d6 falling bonus = 75d6
MAM: 75/262.5/450

However, we can get heavier items if we pile them into a Bag of Holding and open it to release them.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-19, 09:08 PM
A bunch of lighter items in a bag of holding, with falling damage, is better than a couple of biggies, as the 20d6 is multiplied a lot more.

DreadArchon
2007-05-19, 10:51 PM
Yes, I can, but that's not the issue in this thread. The aim of this thread is to produce a feasible and useable method of bombarding a target from orbit with reasonable accuracy and cost.
Step 1: Scrying
Step 2: Delayed Blast Fireball
Step 3: Animal Messenger
Step 4: Teleportation Circle
Step 5: ???
Step 6: Profit!


For the sake of this thread, we'll probably do best by suspending this issue until such a time as we no longer require the thread for the method. In other words, we should hold off on the "there's no way they could know about it" issues until the cutting room stage :smallwink:
I'd assume that any mage worth his salt has, at some point, put on a Ring of Sustenance and just started teleporting straight up to see what would happen, and I'd imagine that "direct observation" would be a good way to know what the world physically looks like.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-05-20, 08:25 AM
Step 1: Scrying
Step 2: Delayed Blast Fireball
Step 3: Animal Messenger
Step 4: Teleportation Circle
Step 5: ???
Step 6: Profit!


Explosive runes solve this problem better. Come to think about it, enough explosive runes scribed onto the same piece of paper solve pretty much any problem.

Penguinizer
2007-05-20, 08:29 AM
Epic spell to summon a Giant intelligent comet that is immune to fire and a telepathic bond between you and it. Perfect flyspeed. It flies into atmosphere. Then it flies into atmosphere and falls down. Rocks fall, everyone dies.

Lyinginbedmon
2007-05-20, 09:21 AM
Except when they get wise and stop reading it, or are immune to force effects, or when they find you hiding just in range of an area dispel to intentionally fail. Attacking from orbit virtually negates the possibility of the enemy knowing what's coming, and they certainly won't know where the next shot might land, but it'll certainly hurt

EDIT: Referring to the explosive runes idea

Illiterate Scribe
2007-05-20, 09:24 AM
Yeah, but it's a tradeoff; it's going to be hard to find damage sources that scale infinitely. Also, if they read one rune on a piece of paper, they all go off, as the underlying paper is destroyed. If I have to dispel them manually, a gate or planar breach works fine.

Edit: Who is immune to force effects? I've found it's pretty rare. Only void incarnates, as far as I remember.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-20, 10:38 AM
Oh yeah, and I got the "high intelligence" check idea from Iron Heroes.


Basic question, recall important or basic fact 0
Simple question, recall an important detail or component 5
Complex question, recall a minor or passing detail 10
Intricate, multiple-part question, recall a tiny detail 15
Challenging philosophical question, recall an exact 20
detail with perfect clarity
Deep question that has confounded experts, 25
recall a complete scene in photographic detail

60?
:smallcool:

EDIT: Exactly. Having a 21'st level character get DC 125? Well, that's better than most gods, by a longshot. Compare a basic question to something that puzzles experts. Take that to the power of 5. Even if you can't put such things in numbers, it is evident of such a staggering intellect, it is beyond words.

Wehrkind
2007-05-20, 01:18 PM
Keep in mind too that 18 is top end for most humans in the game. Getting to 20 would be really intelligent. Getting twice what the top minds are capable of would be staggering, god like intellect.

Lyinginbedmon
2007-05-20, 01:31 PM
Are you trying to say the Mind Flayer did it? :smallbiggrin:

DreadArchon
2007-05-20, 02:02 PM
Of course, I'm reminded that Control Winds, sudden-widened, at caster level 18, automatically destroys everything within like 1200 feet. A Stormsinger Bard can do this at level 15. Is that not good enough for you?

The real question is whether you're worried about effectiveness or impressiveness. It's hard to fully realize both.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-05-20, 06:39 PM
*Cough* This is in response to using Cometfall for the orbitial strike thing...you know they errta'ed that spell, right?

It can only get so much extra damage from being higher up now.

Neek
2007-05-20, 07:54 PM
Yeah, we got to that on page 2 or page 3 or something like. My head was hurting from the all "medieval people thought the world was flat" business. To be honest, hardly anyone in the past two and a half thousand years believed the Earth was flat. Galileo? He's nothing compared to some of the other people in history, he's only more relevant.

The Greeks stopped believing the world was flat in the 6th century BC, which they got from the Indians. Eratosthenes, a Greek philosopher from the 3rd century BC, determined the circumference of the Earth and came up with a slightly larger answer--depending on which direction you're measuring. He is also accredited to have also determined the distance of the Earth to the moon, and to the sun, and was one of the first in the Western world to bring forth a heliocentric model of the universe, as opposed to a geocentric. His findings (save heliocentric model) were used for a thousand or so years later.

Honestly, if you've been anywhere in this world, and say, you've walked farther than from the valley or village that you lived in--you'd know the Earth was round. If you watched any number of Lunar eclipses, you'd notice the round disc of Earth against the moon. Any sailor of any age who gave it a thought could tell you the Earth was round. Only the most backwater and isolated people in the world during the Middle Ages believed that the Earth was flat.

So what does this have to do with anything? If D&D is an echo of the Western World before the 100 Year's War, then people should know better and it'd be a gross historical inaccuracy to presume otherwise. Now if the DM knows this, and still goes ahead and says his people who live in his world think the world is flat--well, Rule 0. Otherwise, it's not out of the bounds of reality for anyone who has access to a big and diverse enough library to put together these findings and come up with something. I mean, it took a guy with a stick to stand at two different spots. Someone else must've wrote it down, right? If not, just get two sticks and get to use your Knowledge (Mathematics).

Now, as to the cleverness of the original post: it was funny. Except for the whole errata, that was a whole lolkill and a half. Still, sundering the Earth. Good one. :)

Leon
2007-05-21, 04:05 AM
*sound of catgirls splattering*


Its a lovely sound

Nidogg
2010-03-14, 01:57 PM
(WARNING WALL OF PHYSICS INCOMING!)
Correct me if im wrong but in the spell description says that the comet immidiately falls and therefore lands in the same round as the spell (for the sake of this lets say 1round=6seconds. Now, accelerating at the earths gravity over a distance of 100km with a mass of 182kg thats hitting the ground with over 3635443500j of force (cos in no way is a 400lb comet going to leave a 10ft crater) Thats a big as three hiroshima bombs!

Well done Mad, you have sucsessfully produced a DND nuke.

Volkov
2010-03-14, 02:03 PM
You forgot the sunder attempt on the earth.

Which instantly fails, even a mars sized impactor tried and failed to destroy the earth.

Volkov
2010-03-14, 02:04 PM
Yeah, but it's a tradeoff; it's going to be hard to find damage sources that scale infinitely. Also, if they read one rune on a piece of paper, they all go off, as the underlying paper is destroyed. If I have to dispel them manually, a gate or planar breach works fine.

Edit: Who is immune to force effects? I've found it's pretty rare. Only void incarnates, as far as I remember.

Force dragons.

Lyinginbedmon
2010-03-14, 08:23 PM
Congratulations, you've both managed to necro a thread almost three years dead.

Thurbane
2010-03-14, 08:41 PM
All we need now is for someone to post the "ever humorous" thread necromancy pic. :smallannoyed:

Roland St. Jude
2010-03-14, 08:51 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Thread necromancy is frown upon here. Also, I share Thurbane's disapproval of spamming up a thread just because there's been a rule violation or a lock seems imminent. Not a good idea.