Tome of Magic

[FocusWolf413]

Why don't I ever hear about the classes in ToM besides the binder? Last time I checked, there were some really cool classes in there. Do people have an aversion to ToM?

[torrasque666]

Jormengand Jormengand Jormengand!

I say it thrice to summon him right? Because Jormengand can educate you on why people do(n't) play Truenamers and possibly Shadowcasters as well. Honestly, if anyone has studied that Tome to its maximum, its Jormengand.

[Nifft]

Binder - solid T3 mechanics, or T2 with that one Alienist Vestige. Also, a really cool idea.

Shadowcaster - a really cool idea with terrible mechanics.

Truenamer - a really cool idea with terrible mechanics.

- - -

Thus, you see a lot of Binder discussion, but very little Shadowcaster or Truenamer discussion.

[BowStreetRunner]

I think it's more a matter of the lack of support the Tome of Magic classes receive outside of that one book. Even with Magic of Incarnum the entire book was about one mechanic and there was some support in Dragon Magic. While ToM also got some support in Dragon Magic, each of the three mechanics only got one-third of a book to begin with. Of these, the binder works best in multi-class situations and therefore is more adaptable. Plus as I understand there are some real mechanical problems with Truenamer - although I have never attempted to play one myself.

[Greenish]

Flatly put, they're not very good. Truenamer has pretty significant limits on magic that would be largely unexceptional even even without it, and Shadowcaster just lacks magical muscle.

[EisenKreutzer]

Why don't I ever hear about the classes in ToM besides the binder? Last time I checked, there were some really cool classes in there. Do people have an aversion to ToM?

Well, the Truenamer is quite possibly the most broken class in the game.

And I don't mean broken as in "overpowered." It is quite literally broken, meaning it doesn't work.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, the Truenamer is quite possibly the most broken class in the game.

And I don't mean broken as in "overpowered." It is quite literally broken, meaning it doesn't work.

The truenamer is not non-functional "broken." It is decidedly underpowered and has a higher than typically accepted (on forums) failure rate with its primary schtick. It -is- workable but generally not worth the effort except in the lowest power games.

Shadowcaster is unnecessarily complicated for similarly lack-luster results.

[Ellowryn]

To be honest even the guy who made the shadowcaster didn't like how it turned and ended up making a rewrite of it. It should still exist somewhere, unfortunately i don't remember where i came across it.

[Jowgen]

Not much to add about the Truenamer that hasn't already been mentioned, but to illustrate how bad it is: the only hand book written for the class is titled: in the beginning was the word, and the word was SUCK.

Binders... I think their lack of popularity is due to their playstyle. You choose from a bunch of bundles that give you special abilities you can throw around all day. Sure, it can be good and quite versatile, but you're playing neither mundane, full-caster, gish... or any of the popular types of characters people like to play. Not to mention, the Invocation User classes already allow people to sling an endless supply of magical effects around, but do so in a manner that's somewhat more customize-able and can benefit from more cross-book support.

With Shadowcasters, it's simply that their mechancis are too clunky. Interestingly enough, the original creator of the class at one point posted a list of fixes that he said one could/should apply to make the class more worthy (i.e. 1st party homebrew). I used to have them saved but... one sec, are they on the WotC forums? If so, that's something that really needs to get saved. :smalleek:

[Telonius]

To be honest even the guy who made the shadowcaster didn't like how it turned and ended up making a rewrite of it. It should still exist somewhere, unfortunately i don't remember where i came across it.

The whole update thread is here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?184955-Shadowcaster-fixes-by-Mouseferatu), the specific post is here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?184955-Shadowcaster-fixes-by-Mouseferatu&p=3273239&viewfull=1#post3273239).

EDIT: It's on enworld, so safe for now...?

[OldTrees1]

The truenamer is not non-functional "broken." It is decidedly underpowered and has a higher than typically accepted (on forums) failure rate with its primary schtick. It -is- workable but generally not worth the effort except in the lowest power games.

Shadowcaster is unnecessarily complicated for similarly lack-luster results.

I believe the reason most label it as not working right "broken" is because it is best described by this quote from Alice in Wonderland.

“My dear, here we must run as fast as we can, just to stay in place. And if you wish to go anywhere you must run twice as fast as that.”

― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland
If the DC for a task increases faster than the background increase in bonus with no increase in benefit, then leveling up has a weakening effect. While optimization can allow us to run fast enough to outpace this decline, having to fight against a decline resulting from increasing in power is contradictory (and thus broken).

[eggynack]

I think it's more a matter of the lack of support the Tome of Magic classes receive outside of that one book. Even with Magic of Incarnum the entire book was about one mechanic and there was some support in Dragon Magic. While ToM also got some support in Dragon Magic, each of the three mechanics only got one-third of a book to begin with. Of these, the binder works best in multi-class situations and therefore is more adaptable. Plus as I understand there are some real mechanical problems with Truenamer - although I have never attempted to play one myself.
Yeah, I think this is a big part of it. If these classes were just bad, that wouldn't necessarily be all that problematic. You can screw around with a broken class for awhile, and have some fun that way. That should be obvious based on all the monk optimization and discussion that occurs. But truenamers and shadowcasters are just kinda boring. Sure, there are ways to optimize, but my understanding is that they're relatively straightforward, and that any high end trickery is pretty much mapped out. You get this decent lump of stuff, out of which only a handful is all that useful, and that's it. If there were multiple books of crap, crap of varying degrees of crappiness, then people would probably spend a good amount of time arranging that crap into halfway usable forms, but with only one book of crap, you can only do so much.

[Troacctid]

The Shadowcaster's method of learning mysteries is problematic. If you want a mystery from a given path, you're locked into taking every mystery from that path, and in order, which gives you very little wiggle room and lends the class a distinctly paint-by-numbers vibe. A lot of the paths have one mystery you want and two other mysteries that kind of suck, but you have to take all three of them to get the one good one, and because of the Shadowcaster's weird casting mechanic, you still have to spend your extremely limited "spell slots" on the sucky ones.

There's also the problem of being really tight on daily resources, which is like the opposite of how it should be, right? Like, the Sorcerer has hardly any spells known, but has a good amount of spell slots, whereas the Wizard has loads of spells known, but gets fewer spell slots than the Sorcerer and has to prepare them in advance. Well, the Shadowcaster has fewer spells known than the Sorcerer, fewer spell slots than the Wizard, and her spell slots are locked in as specific spells to boot.

Ultimately, the class is lackluster, and in my testing, I found the mechanics unsatisfying to play. My recommendation is to either make their mysteries recharge using the Recharge Magic variant, or just switch them to per-encounter rather than per-day. That way, they have a unique feel that's different from other casters, and their power level is up to snuff. You should also lift the restriction on taking paths in order and change their bonus feats accordingly, as the Ari Marmell suggests.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I believe the reason most label it as not working right "broken" is because it is best described by this quote from Alice in Wonderland.

If the DC for a task increases faster than the background increase in bonus with no increase in benefit, then leveling up has a weakening effect. While optimization can allow us to run fast enough to outpace this decline, having to fight against a decline resulting from increasing in power is contradictory (and thus broken).

Meh. Greater silver tongue amulet, skill focus, headband of intellect, and level boosts to intelligence get you 18 of the 19 points you need to increase as you level to match your success rate at level 1. This is an utterly trivial degree of optimization. Getting a couple more beyond that from various more esoteric sources isn't a big deal and isn't strictly necessary anyway.

And before anyone says, "but you shouldn't need items to do your schtick," tell that to a fighter or barbarian who hasn't put in at least that much effort on his ability to hit.

The truenamer works just fine. It just doesn't do much.

[OldTrees1]

Meh. Greater silver tongue amulet, skill focus, headband of intellect, and level boosts to intelligence get you 18 of the 19 points you need to increase as you level to match your success rate at level 1. This is an utterly trivial degree of optimization. Getting a couple more beyond that from various more esoteric sources isn't a big deal and isn't strictly necessary anyway.

And before anyone says, "but you shouldn't need items to do your schtick," tell that to a fighter or barbarian who hasn't put in at least that much effort on his ability to hit.

The truenamer works just fine. It just doesn't do much.

3 of those 4 things you named are not part of the background increase(ranks + HD boosts to Int). Those 3 things are examples of the character expending resources(gp/feats) to stay in place(have to run to stay in place).

So while that is a trivial degree of optimization, that does not address the running to stay in place game design flaw.

Fighters need to increase their attack(although the background of BAB+HD increases is good enough) in order to reach new challenges. This is not comparable to Truenamers needing to run in place to replicate lower level accomplishments (Word of Nurturing/Cure Light Wounds should not be harder to cast at 20th level than it is at 1st level).

Again, not saying you can't make a Truenamer work. Just pointing out, from a game design perspective, someone made a math error that contradicts level based design philosophy.

[Kantolin]

I am a big fan of shadowcasters myself, but there's no question about them being underpowered and immensely limited.

Still, I do think people underestimate what are 'spells'. A shadowcaster tends to be more reliant on 'wands' and 'scrolls' than a wizard, but they can pull their weight. The most painful period is until level 7 - from 1-6 you have as many spells as you have levels, which is horribadly few. From 7 on, you still have 'very very few spells', but now you have enough that you can be less afraid to actually use them.

People claim they're tier 5, but I maintain that they should be tier 4 - even without optimization, it's perfectly reasonable that they can be 'less effective caster'. Of course, they can't do list-expansion to the extent of the warmage, so their ceiling is fairly low.

Now I mean, you could easily say 'why play them when you can play a [higher tier class], but you'll run into that in a lot of cases anyway. :P

[gorfnab]

There are some tricks you can do with Shadowcasters (see my handbook in my sig), however they are few and far between.

[TheifofZ]

The Truenamer runs into the problem of "I need to hit DC 50s on skill checks" at about level 15. While it's doable, it shouldn't have to be done.
That's like telling the fighter he needs to be able to have a to hit of +40 at level 15. Again, doable, but it's not something that should be required just for the fighter to be able to face the average random encounter at level 15. All the Truenamer abilities are very good, and if there were some way to not require blowing all my expendable resources and scarce feat slots just to be able to do more than perform almost as well as I did at level 1, then it'd be a great class.

The Shadowcaster is just underwhelming. It gets less resources per day than the wizard, less known than the sorcerer, has a built in customization limiter, and about 3/5ths of the 'spells' you can learn as a shadowcaster are just crud. Most of them do about what a wizard could do 2-3 levels after the wizard can do it, without much to look forward to.
There are a few, a rare few, mysteries that are absolute gems, but the few that are good are the only reason the class is tolerable at all.

And then we get to the Binder, which does everything it sets out to do. It's versatile, interesting, flavorful, and is both playable without horrendous amounts of optimization (unlike Truenamer) and has, overall, a decent power level (unlike Shadowcaster).

Certainly, if the 3 classes had some much needed support from other books it could have helped, but the basic issues would have remained: Truenamer's CORE mechanic is nigh-non-functional, and Shadowcaster needs a heavy overhaul to bring it up to snuff.

[Troacctid]

I am a big fan of shadowcasters myself, but there's no question about them being underpowered and immensely limited.

Still, I do think people underestimate what are 'spells'. A shadowcaster tends to be more reliant on 'wands' and 'scrolls' than a wizard, but they can pull their weight. The most painful period is until level 7 - from 1-6 you have as many spells as you have levels, which is horribadly few. From 7 on, you still have 'very very few spells', but now you have enough that you can be less afraid to actually use them.

People claim they're tier 5, but I maintain that they should be tier 4 - even without optimization, it's perfectly reasonable that they can be 'less effective caster'. Of course, they can't do list-expansion to the extent of the warmage, so their ceiling is fairly low.

Now I mean, you could easily say 'why play them when you can play a [higher tier class], but you'll run into that in a lot of cases anyway. :P

I think a Shadowcaster is T5 as an Apprentice, T4 as an Initiate, and T3 as a Master. Early on, they basically just don't do anything. Once they hit Initiate mysteries and get their second daily use for their Apprentice mysteries, it's a decent enough power spike to push them up a tier and out of the incompetence zone. And by the time you get to higher levels, they do eventually get 9th level spells, even if it's off a crappy list; they aren't breaking the game the way a Sorcerer can with stuff like Shapechange and Wish, but they have some decently powerful spells, and enough of them to have a reasonable suite of options.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Meh. Greater silver tongue amulet, skill focus, headband of intellect, and level boosts to intelligence get you 18 of the 19 points you need to increase as you level to match your success rate at level 1.
But that's not the only factor. Not only do you need to reliably beat DC 15+2xCR, but you have to reliably beat it multiple times, with the DC increasing every time. Want to heal your entire party? The DC will be up by 10 by the time you get to the last guy. Want those buffs to actually last a decent amount of time? Another +5 DC each time. You need another +1/level to affect targets, but you need a lot more than that if you want to have any sort of staying power.

Truenamers also have staggeringly poor editing, which contribute to the "broken" label. One third of their powers don't even have their DC listed in the book, for crying out loud. There are a disappointingly large number of points where you'll have to ask your GM how, exactly, this utterance is supposed to work.

[Segev]

Sidebar, but were I fixing Truenamer, I would make Truespeech alone allow you access to any utterance; if you can make the DC, good for you.

Truenamers would get to add their class level to Truespeech checks for utterances they know (and can use utterances they don't know just with a naked Truespeech check, like anybody else).

That's not quite right just yet, as it makes the skill a little overpowered on its own, but would at least help the Truenamer be more useful. They can use any utterance, and are really good at certain ones. The ones they're not really good at, they can still use passably with suitable optimization.

[Chronos]

Binders are one of the best-designed classes in the game. They've got cool fluff based on actual historical legends, it's implemented in a system that works well with very few dysfunctions, and you get a wide variety of cool and interesting powers that are nonetheless not overpowered. You even get a few roleplaying hooks tossed in for free.

Shadowcasters have two main problems, in my view (in addition to the "run out of power quickly" thing, which is a reasonable direction to go in for nerfing casters). First, it's not really clear what their schtick is. Binders are built around the vestiges, so if you want to make stuff that supports binders, you either create new vestiges, or you make things that work when you have a vestige bound. Truenamers are built around the True Speech skill, so if you want to support truenamers, you make stuff that gives bonuses to True Speech, or that uses it in new ways. Shadowcasters... cast spells, I guess? Their spells are all dark and broody and emo, but that's really not enough to distinguish them from any other caster. About all you can do to support them is to take all of the stuff written for casters, cross out the word "spell", and replace it with the word "mystery". And... why?

Secondly, the mechanics fit all wrong with the fluff. A spellcaster based on the power of shadow should be all about freedom from the usual rules, and flexibility, and using their power in versatile ways. Instead, they're the most rule-bound class in the game. You can only learn your spells in this exact way, and prepare them according to this exact pattern, and does anyone even understand just how they get their bonus feats?

And truenamers... Well, put it this way. I'm a teacher. When I give my students a test, even if they totally bomb it, I'll give them a point of credit for getting their name right. A human truenamer 20 with the elite array, who takes advantage of every single skill-booster available to them in core plus ToM combined, still has a one in five chance of not even getting that pity point. The first time, at least.

[Aharon]

Truenamer: PoA or Draconic Polymorph => Garbler.

You're insane, but can't fail truename DCs. Sounds about right for playing the class :smallbiggrin:

[illyahr]

Agreed with Shadowcasters. They really should be more versatile. If you take a look at their Mystery list, they actually do get a decent amount of versatility. The problem is this: with the rules on how a Shadowcaster learns their mysteries, they can't actually get all the "spells" that they need.

Their bonus feats are a cool idea, though. Each Path is comprised of three spells in three spell levels: levels 1-3, levels 4-6, and levels 7-9. For every two unique paths you have access to, you get a bonus feat. The problems is, again, the weird requirement rules that prevent you from learning multiple paths.

As for Truenamer, I actually did the math. A level 20 Human Truenamer can put 23 ranks in truespeak. You can get the Skill Focus (truespeak) feat for a +3, and a high (ex: 24) Intelligence gets you another +7. That's 1d20+33, or 53 maximum. The Truespeak DC to affect yourself with an utterance is 15 + (2 x 20), or 55. It is literally impossible for a Truenamer to affect a target of equal HD (PC) or CR (NPC/monster) without magical assistance. As stated above, magical assistance is not difficult at that level but it shouldn't be required to do your job (using a fighter as an example doesn't help, we already know he sucks at his job so it doesn't help the argument).

And then, of course, the DC for an utterance (unless stated otherwise in the description) is 10 + 1/2 your Truenamer level + your Cha modifier. If you want to get your Truespeak check to succeed as often as possible, you are going to be sacrificing the potency of your utterances.

[LastOblivion]

Why don't I ever hear about the classes in ToM besides the binder?
Binders alone are enough to validate the existence and use of ToB. Its an amazing class with great fluff. I make use of binders and binder dips as both a DM and a Player. To top it all of the binder gets all it needs for PrC from just two classes. Knight of the sacred Seal is great in full binder builds and binder dips. Anima Mage can be adapted to use both divine and psionic entry and is strictly speaking one of the best PrC in the game. There is even Web content for more vestiges and epic level binders. Go and binder Gaia, and have all the might of the world at your finger tips. Feel free to ignore the other 2/3s of the book, since in only talks about non-binder and is therefore useless to you.

[Pex]

Meh. Greater silver tongue amulet, skill focus, headband of intellect, and level boosts to intelligence get you 18 of the 19 points you need to increase as you level to match your success rate at level 1. This is an utterly trivial degree of optimization. Getting a couple more beyond that from various more esoteric sources isn't a big deal and isn't strictly necessary anyway.

And before anyone says, "but you shouldn't need items to do your schtick," tell that to a fighter or barbarian who hasn't put in at least that much effort on his ability to hit.

The truenamer works just fine. It just doesn't do much.

There's nothing wrong with using items to do stuff. The problem with Truenamer is the need to have specific items to do stuff. All warriors need a weapon. What they don't need is a specific weapon.

[Jormengand]

Jormengand Jormengand Jormengand!

I say it thrice to summon him right? Because Jormengand can educate you on why people do(n't) play Truenamers and possibly Shadowcasters as well. Honestly, if anyone has studied that Tome to its maximum, its Jormengand.

WHY HAVE YOU CALLED ME, PUNY MORTAL?

*Ahem*. Yes, you say its name three times to summon it. Mhm.

Anyway, yeah. Here's the thing about the truenamer: it works, but it's really, really, really, really really hard to do it right. Here's what you have to do to play a truenamer. The first book you crack open isn't Tome of Magic, it's Races of Destiny. You're playing an Illumian. No, stop, quit arguing, you're playing an illumian. Don't make me come over there. Dump your charisma. Yes, your save DCs are charisma-based. Yes, you're dumping your charisma. Take a moment to pretend you're a wizard when getting your stats. Then, you're gonna take a feat that makes you better at being an illumian. Now, take truenamer levels. Then, you're going to take skill focus, and item familiar. Quit complaining and protect your item familiar. I don't care how, just do it. Grab mortalbane while you're at it. Take some flaws so you can have all this down by level 3, which is when you qualify for an item familiar too. Oh, and grab a masterwork tool. What do you mean, "What kind of tool?"? A masterwork one! Come on, it's written right here on my sheet, man!

Once you've finished grabbing every last piddly bonus to truespeak you can (hint: buy amulets of the silver tongue. Convince your DM to okay custom competence items if you can. I, unlike Zaq, prefer not sucking up to the Paragnostic Assembly, partly because I can't be bothered, and partly because it costs a bucketload), then it's time to take some utterances. Avoid anything that actually allows a save. Throw Mortalbane on everything you can that deals damage.

By this point, you have a decent character who can deal damage, heal a bit, and pretend to be good in combat for a while. Or, you could have been a cleric. But whatever, that's fine, because we have a few tricks the cleric can't do: smashing a skull talisman of a 9th-level spell and rebuilding it repeatedly is funny. Dispelling a spell cast by anyone you like without a dispel check (and you can make the truespeak check laughably easy). Even the fact that at 7th level, you unlock an utterance that looks as though it should do 10d6 damage over 5 rounds, until you realise that wait, you can throw mortalbane, empower and extend (where did you get that extra feat? Work it out. There's a ton of ways of doing it, and only about three quarters of them are horribly horribly abusive. Or drop the improved power sigils. I swear that losing a point of initiative and truespeak isn't that bad) on it and it actually deals 40d6*1.5 over 10 rounds. You also get a janky freedom of movement//dimensional anchor with no save and no attack roll and they can't move out of the square they occupy at all at first level, but lasting only one round makes it less useful (not that at-will 1-round freedom of movement, which will eventually be a swift action, is exactly gonna go out of fashion fast).

You get a lot of cool stuff. If you try hard enough, you can ruin the day of upwards of half the classes in the PHB (Fighter, barbarian, ranger, rogue, paladin, monk, if you're really trying hard enough bard) and if you catch a wizard, sorcerer, cleric or druid off-guard (good luck with that, though, mate), you may be able to pose a significant threat to them, or at least a major inconvenience if they're the paranoid sort. I mean, most seventh-level wizards aren't equipped to fight someone who can turn their flight off and drop a hundred-odd points of whatever type of energy damage they like onto the wizard's head, after all. You're never going to be as good as a wizard, but you might get lucky and murder the bastard, at least at earlier levels.

The endless stream of solars that you can throw about at 20th level is just the icing on the cake.

[Grod_The_Giant]

To be fair, taking Item Familiar alone is enough to fix the DC problem, since it means your Truespeak check scales with 2*level as well. Then you're just left with the issue of mediocre and occasionally dysfunctional powers, which are harder to deal with.

The simplest fix is to reduce the DC to 15+CR and to remove the Law of Sequence altogether. Again, that's enough to make them functional at low optimization levels. And since the worst you can do with an infinite Truespeak check is infinite use of two mediocre powers a turn, I don't think there's any reason to worry.

[peacenlove]

Shadowcasters with Marmell's fixes (and other comments, such as basically that for every metamagic feat there should exist a metashadow alternative) are workable and sometimes better than sorcerers (more feats better familiar, skill list and 1 spell level ahead)
Problem is they have 69 mysteries to choose from where as the sorcerer has 2000+. Same with feat support.

The revision fixes their chassis but not their sparse material they have to work with

[The Viscount]

To be fair, taking Item Familiar alone is enough to fix the DC problem, since it means your Truespeak check scales with 2*level as well. Then you're just left with the issue of mediocre and occasionally dysfunctional powers, which are harder to deal with.

The simplest fix is to reduce the DC to 15+CR and to remove the Law of Sequence altogether. Again, that's enough to make them functional at low optimization levels. And since the worst you can do with an infinite Truespeak check is infinite use of two mediocre powers a turn, I don't think there's any reason to worry.

To be honest I think I could tolerate the Law of Sequence if it didn't prevent you from using an utterance and the reversed utterance at the same time, since several utterances have completely different functions, and there's essentially no overlap. Would you still keep the Law of Resistance with the appended check? It could certainly work well enough.

As has been mentioned (particularly well in Zaq's guide) a large problem with Truenamer is that the utterances simply aren't very competitive against other forms of magic. They lag behind irritatingly, and they do not interact with other magic well. Beating spell resistance is exceptionally vexing, especially because they present the option to raise the DC to overcome it as if you could actually make that DC.

For Shadowcaster, PiggyKnowles wrote a useful guide that highlights another problem with the class besides the more obvious ones mentioned. To learn the higher level mysteries in a path you have to learn the ones below it, meaning that sometimes you have to slog through 2 bad mysteries to get 1 great one. In terms of comparative power Shadowcaster actually comes out all right, the web enhancement supplemental paths really helped. Having to split casting stats is simply cruel. The sad thing is that you don't notice it as strongly because shadowcasters have no bonus mysteries.

In terms of the PrCs (in case OP was talking about those) for Binder Scion of Dantalion is all right, but essentially all its features require you to bind Dantalion, who isn't too impressive. Tenebrous Apostate is often looked at poorly because its a theurgic class that doesn't advance either to full, and doesn't provide a huge benefit for most binders. Anima Mage receives plenty of praise because it's immensely powerful. For Shadow Magic the PrCs don't get much attention because they integrate Mysteries, which is a moderately poor system. Also few are full casting, which is a big no no for casters. Truenaming PrCs get next to no attention because none of them advance truenaming. They do still use Truespeak checks, but that's just salt to the wound.

[Brova]

To be fair, taking Item Familiar alone is enough to fix the DC problem, since it means your Truespeak check scales with 2*level as well. Then you're just left with the issue of mediocre and occasionally dysfunctional powers, which are harder to deal with.

So the Truenamer is okay if he's allowed to take Item Familiar? That seems like saying the Fighter is okay if he's allowed to take Leadership. Obviously it bumps a terrible class up to mediocre, because it is totally insane.

[Nifft]

So the Truenamer is okay if he's allowed to take Item Familiar? That seems like saying the Fighter is okay if he's allowed to take Leadership. Obviously it bumps a terrible class up to mediocre, because it is totally insane. Also it's not happening in a vacuum.

If you allow Item Familiar for the Truenamer, won't it also be allowed for the Incantatrix?

Adding in that sort of boost is a tide that lifts many different ships -- some of which were high enough to be in geosynchronous orbit before the boost.

[Anlashok]

Also it's not happening in a vacuum.

If you allow Item Familiar for the Truenamer, won't it also be allowed for the Incantatrix?
Why would it? Why doesn't it happen in a vacuum? Seems like an odd argument that I can't quite figure out.

[Nifft]

Why would it? Why doesn't it happen in a vacuum? Seems like an odd argument that I can't quite figure out.

Here's the chain of argument:

"Wizard is better than Fighter."
"But Fighter can take Leadership and that will even out the difference."

This is a flawed argument because Wizard can also take Leadership, and then you're back to square one.

A Truenamer benefits from an Item Familiar, but so do other characters (like an Incantatrix, or a Warblade or Swordsage who went deep in Diamond Mind, or any of the Diplomancer builds).

[FocusWolf413]

It might not happen in a vacuum, but it does happen around (what I hope to be) mature enough individuals that they know to show enough restraint to not break the game. It's not unreasonable to allow underpowered classes to take leadership and have item familiars, but disallow it for full casters.

My friends and I have a wonderful saying: Don't be a b****.

[Taveena]

Truenamer is broken, in that many of its abilities are just.. not functioning. Not as in 'you failed a check to do this', but as in 'how this ability functions by RAW or RAI is utterly unclear.

I dunno. I like the class because no matter how hard you optimize, you're only BARELY coming out ahead of a Warlock. It lets me go to absolutely ridiculous extremes digging out Dragon Magazine and weird variant stuff and only come out even with a per-encounter Shadowcaster or judicious Warmage.

And, hell, I like Truenamer because when you DO hit that +71 Truespeak check at level 9 you can effectively last all day. You're almost a fully charged Wand of Lesser Vigor by yourself every day.

Also, if your DM lets you play Incantatrix with an Item Familiar, then yes, things are going to get problematic. Item Familiar when just used for a skill bonus and nothing else is fine. Item Familiar with no limitations is not fine. Leadership used to stat up an Incantatrix cohort is also problematic. Some feats need more adjudication, and as the Truenamer's required that from the word 'go'...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Now that I think on it, is there anything outside of the skill thing from item familiars that's way more powerful than I'm seeing?

There's only a few places that the skill thing might cause a problem that I can think of. Incantatrix is one but that ship sails with or without item familiar. There are a few diamond mind strikes in ToB that get a pretty significant damage boost. Nothing else comes immediately to mind. Is there some other use to item familiars that I'm not seeing that makes them "completely nuts?"

[Nifft]

Now that I think on it, is there anything outside of the skill thing from item familiars that's way more powerful than I'm seeing?

There's only a few places that the skill thing might cause a problem that I can think of. Incantatrix is one but that ship sails with or without item familiar. There are a few diamond mind strikes in ToB that get a pretty significant damage boost. Nothing else comes immediately to mind. Is there some other use to item familiars that I'm not seeing that makes them "completely nuts?"

Diplomancer, like I said above.

Jumplomancer, which is an extension of Diplomancer.

Epic skill checks in general could probably be used in various abusive ways.

[Starbuck_II]

The Shadowcaster's method of learning mysteries is problematic. If you want a mystery from a given path, you're locked into taking every mystery from that path, and in order, which gives you very little wiggle room and lends the class a distinctly paint-by-numbers vibe. A lot of the paths have one mystery you want and two other mysteries that kind of suck, but you have to take all three of them to get the one good one, and because of the Shadowcaster's weird casting mechanic, you still have to spend your extremely limited "spell slots" on the sucky ones.

There's also the problem of being really tight on daily resources, which is like the opposite of how it should be, right? Like, the Sorcerer has hardly any spells known, but has a good amount of spell slots, whereas the Wizard has loads of spells known, but gets fewer spell slots than the Sorcerer and has to prepare them in advance. Well, the Shadowcaster has fewer spells known than the Sorcerer, fewer spell slots than the Wizard, and her spell slots are locked in as specific spells to boot.

Ultimately, the class is lackluster, and in my testing, I found the mechanics unsatisfying to play. My recommendation is to either make their mysteries recharge using the Recharge Magic variant, or just switch them to per-encounter rather than per-day. That way, they have a unique feel that's different from other casters, and their power level is up to snuff. You should also lift the restriction on taking paths in order and change their bonus feats accordingly, as the Ari Marmell suggests.

You pretty much spend most of your treasure on pearls of power (they have shadow casting ones listed as well).
I like your per encounter (5-10 minutes recharge?)

Some of their spells (Mystery's) are cool like Concealment that doesn't allow targeting (greater Displacement, basically invisibility). But you can get it as a magic item for cheap.

[Taveena]

Now that I think on it, is there anything outside of the skill thing from item familiars that's way more powerful than I'm seeing?

There's only a few places that the skill thing might cause a problem that I can think of. Incantatrix is one but that ship sails with or without item familiar. There are a few diamond mind strikes in ToB that get a pretty significant damage boost. Nothing else comes immediately to mind. Is there some other use to item familiars that I'm not seeing that makes them "completely nuts?"

Fast-XP advancement is the big problem. XP is a river, but getting all that extra XP still means you can craft a ton more than expected.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Diplomancer, like I said above.

Jumplomancer, which is an extension of Diplomancer.

Epic skill checks in general could probably be used in various abusive ways.

Meh. I'm not sold. Diplomacy was way past broken before you let item familiars in and epic skill checks are very cool but mechanically trivial, except diplomacy.

The more I think about it the less problematic I see item familiars being.

Hells, people complain quite loudly about buying CC skills at a 2:1 rate but cry foul at item familiar letting you get extra at 3:1 when skills don't actually do much outside a few very specific uses. This just keeps making less and less sense.

[daremetoidareyo]

Meh. I'm not sold. Diplomacy was way past broken before you let item familiars in and epic skill checks are very cool but mechanically trivial, except diplomacy.

The more I think about it the less problematic I see item familiars being.

Hells, people complain quite loudly about buying CC skills at a 2:1 rate but cry foul at item familiar letting you get extra at 3:1 when skills don't actually do much outside a few very specific uses. This just keeps making less and less sense.

It's because some nimrod invented iaijutsu focus as a class skill in a first party supplement. They also poorly defined parameters for diplomacy that somehow totally negate the reciprocal nature of diplomacy.

[Nifft]

Meh, the reason that the Truenamer fails is not related to the presence or absence of the Item Familiar feat.

The problem is that the Truenamer's resource is declining maximum target CR.

What does that mean?

It means that if you fight an enemy +4 CR over your party level, then an enemy of equal CR to your Trunamer, and then a bunch of low-CR enemies, you'll do fine. But if you fight the same enemies in reverse, you're screwed for the last fight. If the enemy CR declines along with your daily resource, you're happy. If the enemy CR follows any other pattern, you're screwed at least some of the time.

You cannot manage your resource without prior knowledge about the CR of the enemies you'll face.

In most campaigns, you simply cannot have that knowledge.

Therefore, you cannot manage your resource.

You're like a Wizard who gains +10% arcane spell failure every encounter, or a Fighter whose BAB decreases every time he meets a new foe.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Fast-XP advancement is the big problem. XP is a river, but getting all that extra XP still means you can craft a ton more than expected.

Okay, yeah. That one I forgot was there and is certainly a problem.

Still not seeing it on the skill thing though. A few points of bonus damage here and there don't really impress me.

If you drop the invest life option then it's just a neat little bonus ability. The classes that didn't have or didn't need a broad array of skills aren't getting much except the opportunity to give up 3 skills to double the efficacy of one and the classes that use skills frequently can't afford to give up that many. Diplomacy, as written, is broken beyond salvaging if anyone pumps it in any way anyway and the really specific uses are just that; really specific.

I'm beginning to think item familiars are as overblown as some of the games other "problems."

Seriously, any more really "abusive" uses for the skill doubling?

[Taveena]

Okay, yeah. That one I forgot was there and is certainly a problem.

Still not seeing it on the skill thing though. A few points of bonus damage here and there don't really impress me.

If you drop the invest life option then it's just a neat little bonus ability. The classes that didn't have or didn't need a broad array of skills aren't getting much except the opportunity to give up 3 skills to double the efficacy of one and the classes that use skills frequently can't afford to give up that many. Diplomacy, as written, is broken beyond salvaging if anyone pumps it in any way anyway and the really specific uses are just that; really specific.

I'm beginning to think item familiars are as overblown as some of the games other "problems."

Seriously, any more really "abusive" uses for the skill doubling?

It's not abusive, it just kind of throws a lot of assumptions about the game out of whack.

So does playing a non-blaster Wizard, though. So.

[Afgncaap5]

Now that I think on it, is there anything outside of the skill thing from item familiars that's way more powerful than I'm seeing?

There's only a few places that the skill thing might cause a problem that I can think of. Incantatrix is one but that ship sails with or without item familiar. There are a few diamond mind strikes in ToB that get a pretty significant damage boost. Nothing else comes immediately to mind. Is there some other use to item familiars that I'm not seeing that makes them "completely nuts?"

I wouldn't say it contributes to them being completely nuts, but this conversation is suddenly making me realize that my next Artificer needs an item familiar as a pet to get around the old "Should I take Skill Focus (UMD) or not?" quandry.

[Telonius]

Iajutsu Focus and Knowledge (x) (through Knowledge Devotion) would be the other offensive ones I can think of. Some of the other Diamond Mind counters could let you say "no" to any spell that requires a save, but there are plenty of horrible no-save spells.

Maybe Intimidate, on a fear-based build? I can't remember if Shneeky's "Takahashi no Onisan" build used Item Familiar or not...

[TheifofZ]

Item familiars grant Fast XP, 2* advancement in a skill that can be potentially insanely potent, and also do other nifty things.
Like screw the normal Action economy very slightly.

In a high power campaign where every wizard is a non-blaster generalist and noone is playing below T2 on the class list, the power fluctuation is like pouring a glass of water into the ocean.
In a low-mid power campaign where people pick blaster wizards and fighters are considered viable PCs, the power fluctuation is anywhere from high-tide to a tidal wave, based on the make and model of the boats being lifted by it.
It's a lot like Leadership, really.

[Troacctid]

Item Familiar is basically Leadership for intelligent items, except you also gain faster xp, bonus spell slots, and a massive buff to your skills.

[Taveena]

Item Familiar is basically Leadership for intelligent items, except you also gain faster xp, bonus spell slots, and a massive buff to your skills.

Oh christ the bonus spell slots, too.

The XP and the spell slots are probably the biggest ones. Bonuses to skills has the POTENTIAL for abuse but isn't inherently a gamebreaker - but for something like Incantatrix that gets free metamagic with spellcraft checks...

[Jormengand]

Meh, the reason that the Truenamer fails is not related to the presence or absence of the Item Familiar feat.

The problem is that the Truenamer's resource is declining maximum target CR.

What does that mean?

It means that if you fight an enemy +4 CR over your party level, then an enemy of equal CR to your Trunamer, and then a bunch of low-CR enemies, you'll do fine. But if you fight the same enemies in reverse, you're screwed for the last fight. If the enemy CR declines along with your daily resource, you're happy. If the enemy CR follows any other pattern, you're screwed at least some of the time.

You cannot manage your resource without prior knowledge about the CR of the enemies you'll face.

In most campaigns, you simply cannot have that knowledge.

Therefore, you cannot manage your resource.

You're like a Wizard who gains +10% arcane spell failure every encounter, or a Fighter whose BAB decreases every time he meets a new foe.

Thing is, at high levels you'll have more utterances than you can count on both hands, and each takes resistance separately. It's like complaining that your wizard can only cast fireball once because he only prepared it once: well, yeah, but it's not like he hasn't got a bucket of other 3rd-level spells. The truenamer can actually get off almost an order of magnitude more utterances than the wizard can spells, before having to suffer the indignity of actually rolling. It's just, the truenamer still only has 49 different things he can do at level 20 (You have a few more options if you chose normal/greater Energy Negation (9 options instead of 2), agitate metal (2 instead of 1), energy vortex (4 instead of 1), fog from the void (2 instead of 1), conjunctive gate (2 instead of 1), but most of those are just choosing your energy type), and the things that the wizard can do are better.

As for "If the truenamer can have item familiar, so can the wizard", enjoy your +23 skill bonus I guess? It's not like you can use it to quicken all your spells, so I'm not sure why I care. Bards genuinely are better at using leadership than fighters, too, and that is a point in the bard's favour when leadership is allowed. Sure, your wizard can use IF, but the truenamer is just so much better at it that I'm not sure why that's a problem.

[Aharon]

I'm repeating myself, but... Polymorph into Garbler for just succeeding the checks, no Item Familiar needed?

[Flickerdart]

It's because some nimrod invented iaijutsu focus as a class skill in a first party supplement.
Like most things people don't actually look up before crying foul, Iajutsu Focus is not actually all that impressive or game-changing. Neither is using Item Familiar to get a Knowledge X boost (oh boo hoo, you used 2 feats to give yourself +5 on attack and damage vs a few creature types).

[thompur]

Binders alone are enough to validate the existence and use of ToB. Its an amazing class with great fluff. I make use of binders and binder dips as both a DM and a Player. To top it all of the binder gets all it needs for PrC from just two classes. Knight of the sacred Seal is great in full binder builds and binder dips. Anima Mage can be adapted to use both divine and psionic entry and is strictly speaking one of the best PrC in the game. There is even Web content for more vestiges and epic level binders. Go and binder Gaia, and have all the might of the world at your finger tips. Feel free to ignore the other 2/3s of the book, since in only talks about non-binder and is therefore useless to you.

Holy Crap! I didn't even know this stuff existed!
I'm playing a Binder in a custom homebrew. We are at 17th level with the possibility of going as high as 40 to 60th level. I was planning on taking levels in Warblade or something, but now I have the capability and reason to stay with Binder!
THANKS LO!!:smallbiggrin:

[Taveena]

As for "If the truenamer can have item familiar, so can the wizard", enjoy your +23 skill bonus I guess? It's not like you can use it to quicken all your spells, so I'm not sure why I care. Bards genuinely are better at using leadership than fighters, too, and that is a point in the bard's favour when leadership is allowed. Sure, your wizard can use IF, but the truenamer is just so much better at it that I'm not sure why that's a problem.

... we-ell, Incantatrix does get free metamagic on high DC spellcraft checks...


Like most things people don't actually look up before crying foul, Iajutsu Focus is not actually all that impressive or game-changing. Neither is using Item Familiar to get a Knowledge X boost (oh boo hoo, you used 2 feats to give yourself +5 on attack and damage vs a few creature types).


Iaijutsu Focus is Sudden Strike but even HARDER to trigger. There is only one type of Precision damage worse than Iaijutsu Focus, and that's the Mountebank's Deceptive Attack.

Iaijutsu is fun in a TWF build - and is admittedly good with Iaijutsu Master - but there are much easier ways to pump the check than Item Familiar, and unlike Truespeak there are no returns once you can always hit a DC 50 check.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So the Truenamer is okay if he's allowed to take Item Familiar? That seems like saying the Fighter is okay if he's allowed to take Leadership. Obviously it bumps a terrible class up to mediocre, because it is totally insane.
Apples and oranges. A Fighter taking Leadership is acquiring a completely class-independent option, one which doesn't mesh with his mechanics or have any real relationship to his class features. A Truenamer taking Item Familiar is literally fixing his biggest issue in a single stroke. Not because he's gaining extra-class powers, but because it instantly fixes a class-specific defect.

[Jormengand]

... we-ell, Incantatrix does get free metamagic on high DC spellcraft checks...

Yes but Incantatrix is horrible and evil and wrong and should be burned with fire.

[Anlashok]

The "if the truenamer gets it so does the wizard" problem seems like a false one to begin with.

I mean, if you craft a fix for the fighter, you're not obligated or expected to throw Wizards an equally large bone to "keep things fair". In fact that defeats the entire point of trying to help a struggling fighter in the first place, so doing so is actually pretty dumb.

So why are we talking about that at all?

[Nifft]

The "if the truenamer gets it so does the wizard" problem seems like a false one to begin with.

I mean, if you craft a fix for the fighter, you're not obligated or expected to throw Wizards an equally large bone to "keep things fair". In fact that defeats the entire point of trying to help a struggling fighter in the first place, so doing so is actually pretty dumb.

So why are we talking about that at all?

Because the suggested fixes are Feats, which everyone does have equal access to.

Proposing a non-Feat fix would make your point relevant.

[Kelb_Panthera]

... we-ell, Incantatrix does get free metamagic on high DC spellcraft checks...

Spells were allowing them to hit those DC's trivially anyway. Big deal.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Because the suggested fixes are Feats, which everyone does have equal access to.

Proposing a non-Feat fix would make your point relevant.
I did both. I would PREFER a houserule fix, but if it's not on the table there exists a RAW solution to the double-scaling issue. Perfect for lower-op players who don't want to go hunting for every little bonus in the game, and less arbitrary than just giving them am item with a big bonus.

[Taveena]

Spells were allowing them to hit those DC's trivially anyway. Big deal.

Sure, but just like the Truenamer there are larger returns for larger bonuses.
SO Y'KNOW, EVEN WORSE.

[Psyren]

Seriously, any more really "abusive" uses for the skill doubling?

Lucid Dreaming :smallbiggrin:

[The Viscount]

I'm repeating myself, but... Polymorph into Garbler for just succeeding the checks, no Item Familiar needed?

Assuming you're using wands for polymorph, which isn't great, the garbler's ability to not need checks is under skills, and isn't just a huge bonus. It's neither an ex special attack nor a racial skill bonus so you cannot gain it by polymorph. An undead truenamer can turn into a painspeaker for +10 though.

[Nifft]

I did both.

That's great.

You write a lot of interesting house rules, and you demonstrate significant system mastery.

But you're not the person who asked the question, and you're not the person whose question I was trying to answer. Do you object to the answer which I gave?

If you just want to plug your own stuff, that's cool -- you have a lot of interesting stuff. But if you're saying that the answer I gave is somehow lacking, then I'm going to ask for a more direct explanation.

Cheers.

[Aharon]

Assuming you're using wands for polymorph, which isn't great, the garbler's ability to not need checks is under skills, and isn't just a huge bonus. It's neither an ex special attack nor a racial skill bonus so you cannot gain it by polymorph. An undead truenamer can turn into a painspeaker for +10 though.

Of course we're using skull talismans or tiles, not wands :D And if you doubt that the ability counts as a skill bonus, use a tile/skull of shapechange instead... That way, the ability is covered no matter its type.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sure, but just like the Truenamer there are larger returns for larger bonuses.
SO Y'KNOW, EVEN WORSE.

There comes a point where, when you've pushed past the point of what's reasonable (by whatever arbitrary standard), pushing further doesn't make much difference. Incantatrix is already past that point for most groups without IF. Even in most groups that would allow incantatrix, stacking metamagics doesn't push things far enough to matter because there's only so much you can do, qualitatively, with metamagics on a spell that the incantatrix can actually effect that way.

What, beyond blowing crap up, can you do with.... actually, that's a thread of its own.

[mabriss lethe]

While a little off topic, I've been toying with a Truenamer fix off and on for a while now. I kept the chassis of the class basically intact. Instead, I rebuilt the truename mechanic into something similar to the way Force users work in Star Wars Saga Edition with a splash of ToB. Utterances have a base effect that will trigger regardless of the Truespeak roll. (tuned to be in line with the current power level of Utterances.) A truespeak roll can then increase the effect in various ways, akin to a skill based version of psionic augmentation. Recitations, under the auspice of the overhaul, are expanded and function much like a Stance from Tome of Battle.

[The Viscount]

Of course we're using skull talismans or tiles, not wands :D And if you doubt that the ability counts as a skill bonus, use a tile/skull of shapechange instead... That way, the ability is covered no matter its type.

Using skull talismans and fixing them with Rebuild Item is shaky legal ground at best. The utterance says magic items retain properties, not have them restored. The skull talisman had no magical properties as it broke because you used the spell.

Also using shapechange to auto succeed on truespeak checks is thinking kind of small in the grand scheme of things, like using excalibur to cut a pecan pie.

[Aharon]

Using skull talismans and fixing them with Rebuild Item is shaky legal ground at best. The utterance says magic items retain properties, not have them restored. The skull talisman had no magical properties as it broke because you used the spell.

Also using shapechange to auto succeed on truespeak checks is thinking kind of small in the grand scheme of things, like using excalibur to cut a pecan pie.

@Rebuild Item
"With this utterance, you instantly restore an item destroyed within the last round to its normal, undamaged state. Essentially, by reminding the item of its truename, you unmake its destruction. Magic itemss affected by this power retain all their magical properties, unlike items restored with a make whole spell."

Seems pretty clear cut to me. Losing the magic is a result of destroying the item, you return it to its normal, undamaged state...

@Pecan Pies
Not having to make truename checks means you can succeed at level googolplex utterances. This synergizes, for example, with Bracers of the entangling blast => unlimited damage. Also, with all your utterances always succeeding, with no SR, and guaranteed 2 per round, the truenamer is ok.

[Grod_The_Giant]

@Pecan Pies
Not having to make truename checks means you can succeed at level googolplex utterances. This synergizes, for example, with Bracers of the entangling blast => unlimited damage. Also, with all your utterances always succeeding, with no SR, and guaranteed 2 per round, the truenamer is ok.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but utterances don't work like that. The Truespeak check is only to get them to stick, not to determine how strong they are. You can get a guaranteed 2/round, with all the metamagic you want, but that's about it.

[Aharon]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but utterances don't work like that. The Truespeak check is only to get them to stick, not to determine how strong they are. You can get a guaranteed 2/round, with all the metamagic you want, but that's about it.

I'm in Gorgonzola-territory :smallwink: You can up their effective spell level by beating a higher DC - 4 per spell level. So Level 100^100 requires a check of 4*(100^100), but as a garbler, you succeed automatically. You can use any items/spells etc. that interact with spell level this way - for example, powering an Energy Transformation field,

[Jormengand]

I'm in Gorgonzola-territory :smallwink: You can up their effective spell level by beating a higher DC - 4 per spell level. So Level 100^100 requires a check of 4*(100^100), but as a garbler, you succeed automatically. You can use any items/spells etc. that interact with spell level this way - for example, powering an Energy Transformation field,

This is funny if you can sneak on a Salient Divine Ability such as Instant Counterspell, and take Improved Counterspell, sure, but I don't know of any good ways to just go get an SDA, or anything else that's really useful to do with stoopidhuge utterance levels.

[Aharon]

This is funny if you can sneak on a Salient Divine Ability such as Instant Counterspell, and take Improved Counterspell, sure, but I don't know of any good ways to just go get an SDA, or anything else that's really useful to do with stoopidhuge utterance levels.

It's useful for anything that has a function call to "level of a spell-like ability used". I haven't looked for those in detail, but two possibilities are Bracers of the Blast Barrier and Bracers of the entangling blast (both found in the Magic Item compendium).

[Jormengand]

It's useful for anything that has a function call to "level of a spell-like ability used". I haven't looked for those in detail, but two possibilities are Bracers of the Blast Barrier and Bracers of the entangling blast (both found in the Magic Item compendium).

Ah, good one. That makes sense.

[Chronos]

Whoa, a new truenamer TO trick! I thought we'd mined that vein dry. My hat's off to you, Aharon.

[Jormengand]

Whoa, a new truenamer TO trick!

Let's take it for a spin with an Ur Priest, and see how it performs. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?447749-The-power-of-infinity!-%28TO-trick%29)