Cloistered cleric + divine magician

[Dyslexic]

A cloistered cleric can take the alternative class feature "divine magician" to loose his knowledge domain?

I'm not sure, because divine magician tell "You gain only one domain (including spells and granted power) at 1st level, rather than two.", and I think a PC can only loose one of his start domain, not the bonus domain obtained with the cloistered cleric...

[Necroticplague]

I think they'd counter each other out domain-wise, so that you lose one domain, bringing you down to 1, then Cloistered gives you Knowlege as a bonus domain. So you end up with two domains, one of which is knowlege.

[Dread_Head]

I asked this in the simple RAW thread pretty recently and got this reply.


A 457

Yes, but you're still bound by the Divine Magician restriction that you gain only one domain. Because Cloistered Cleric always gives you the Knowledge domain, that's it.

[Troacctid]

I disagree with Curmudgeon's answer. Divine Magician has you gain one domain rather than two. You have to give up exactly two domains in order to use the variant. A strict reading would mean Cloistered Clerics are barred from taking it at all, since three is not two; a more generous reading would allow them to use two of their three to qualify, since three includes two. However, I don't think there's a valid reading that leaves them with one domain plus Divine Magician. They'll either have two domains plus Divine Magician, or they won't be able to make the exchange in the first place.

Alternately, if you trade one of your domains for a Domain feat, that solves the problem quite neatly, I think.

[Faily]

I think they'd counter each other out domain-wise, so that you lose one domain, bringing you down to 1, then Cloistered gives you Knowlege as a bonus domain. So you end up with two domains, one of which is knowlege.

Always interpreted it like this as well.

[Segev]

I concur with Necroticplague, as well: The logical way to apply it is to take Divine Magician, which reduces you to one domain (rather than two), and then you apply Cloistered Cleric, which gives you the Knowledge domain as a bonus domain.

Or, if you prefer, you take Cloistered Cleric, which gives you a bonus Knowledge domain as well as your usual two of choice. Then you take Divine Magician, which reduces your two-of-choice to one-of-choice.

Either way, you wind up with one domain of choice and the Knowledge domain (plus whatever Divine Magician gives you).

[WhamBamSam]

So long as you're a Cloistered Divine Magician Cleric (adding a domain to your 1) rather than a Divine Magician Cloistered Cleric (reducing your 3 to 1 by the strictest RAW), you should be fine. As I don't see any reason you wouldn't be able to apply them in that order, you should be fine.

[Curmudgeon]

So long as you're a Cloistered Divine Magician Cleric (adding a domain to your 1) rather than a Divine Magician Cloistered Cleric (reducing your 3 to 1 by the strictest RAW), you should be fine. As I don't see any reason you wouldn't be able to apply them in that order, you should be fine.
How can you apply an alternative class feature before adding the class? In particular, there's this from the beginning of the chapter in Complete Mage where Divine Magician is found:
These abilities replace class features found in the original class description on a one-for-one basis.
You can replace abilities in the class as soon as you have the class. You can't execute a domain substitution to get the corresponding feat in advance of having the domain, and you can't pick any domains until you've got the class.

[WhamBamSam]

How can you apply an alternative class feature before adding the class? In particular, there's this from the beginning of the chapter in Complete Mage where Divine Magician is found:
You can replace abilities in the class as soon as you have the class. You can't execute a domain substitution to get the corresponding feat in advance of having the domain, and you can't pick any domains until you've got the class.Well I guess if you're really pedantic about a Variant Class being different from an ACF, and that that matters, then maybe, but pretty much everyone seems to treat the two as interchangeable. So, I would argue that it works like this...

1. I decide to take a level of Cleric. The Cleric will have 2 Domains if no other decisions are made.
2. I decide that my Cleric should be a Divine Magician. The Cleric will now be a Divine Magician Cleric, and have a single Domain.
3. I decide that my Cleric should be a Cloistered Cleric. The Cleric is now a Cloistered Divine Magician Cleric, and has a single Domain, plus Knowledge as an additional Domain.

The class level doesn't get spat out until you make all these decisions anyway, so you can't really be said to be taking the ACF before the class.

[Nifft]

How can you apply an alternative class feature before adding the class?

IMHO the ACF is the class, exactly as much as the variant is the class.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Taking both is a totally reasonable option, provided your table doesn't suffer from excessive rules-lawyering.

[jiriku]

Heck, as a DM I'd even have no problem with a player who wanted to give up the Knowledge domain granted by cloistered cleric as his one lost domain for divine magician (although that does cost you access to all those juicy Knowledge skills). One variant adds a domain, another subtracts one. In this instance, I just don't see any advantage to trying to finely parse the wording and grammar of two rules written in different books by different authors at different times. Just interpret the text in a way that works at your table and get on with the game.

[Curmudgeon]

One variant adds a domain, another subtracts one.
That's incorrect; there are not two variants. Instead you've got one variant and one alternative class feature. The ACF gets selected at the specified level in the class, which necessarily happens after you've already entered that class.
Level: The alternative class feature can be selected only at this level. In some cases, different levels might be given for different classes.
In creating a level 1 character, you go through the CHOOSE YOUR CLASS AND RACE step and then a couple of other steps before getting to RECORD RACIAL AND CLASS FEATURES (Player's Handbook, page 6). The class variant necessarily is chosen before you get to any particulars of class features (standard or alternative).

[jiriku]

Let me clarify: a class variant and an alternate class feature are two different types of variants. I am using the word "variant" here in a non-technical sense.

I will reiterate -- in this situation I believe a fine parsing of the rules is unnecessary and adds nothing to the game. In some situations I do recommend reading the rules closely. Here I believe it is unjustified. Mudge, you and I come from different perspectives on this issue. You're concerned about the letter of the law. I'm concerned about the DM's duty to say "Yes, and..." to the players at every opportunity. I don't dispute that we could get down in the weeds and argue about rules minutiae over this if we wanted to. And quite possibly you could win such an argument. However, I'm asserting that in this specific situation, there's no value to doing so. We aren't playing D&D: Sharia Edition. It's OK to finesse the details from time to time.