Kineticist, for dummies please?

[djwood]

Good news everyone! My gm buys a lot of stuff and gave us this pdf with "occult" classes, he told me to look at the Kineticist for my next character. I read it, but it was too much to fully understand it.
Can someone tell me with short and easy words ( ;) ) what they are about?
Many thanks in your direction!

[Kurald Galain]

Go watch Avatar: the Last Airbender. That's a kineticist, plain and simple.

Or in game terms, it's a spellcaster that specializes in throwing one particular kind of energy around (e.g. fire) and has some tricks with it (e.g. flight). It is more straightforward to build and play than a sorcerer, but less versatile.

[Psyren]

There are two handbooks for the class that should help you if you read those:

Mastering the Elements (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?436943-Mastering-the-Elements-N-Jolly-s-guide-to-the-Pathfinder-Kineticist) by N. Jolly

Sucking Counts as Airbending, Right? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?432093-Sucking-Counts-as-Airbending-Right-A-Guide-to-the-Kineticist) by Kira_The_5th

[genderlich]

[QUOTE=Psyren;19886271Sucking Counts as Airbending, Right? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?432093-Sucking-Counts-as-Airbending-Right-A-Guide-to-the-Kineticist) by Kira_The_5th[/QUOTE]

Heh. Good title. Any counter-arguments to the guide's premise that the class is awful? Seemed pretty convincing to me.

[Serafina]

Well, it's a thematically fun class. It may be T4 for the most part, but so are other classes.
It's playable, you just need to avoid some traps (anything that costs much more burn than you can absorb) and take the good options.

And with the good options, it can actually be solid at some stuff.
Though the most two things the class does well are:
- Aether Kineticist using at-will improved mage hand and Telekinetic Finesse to play a Rogue who does everything at range.
- Focus on Attacks of Opportunity with Kinetic Whip and Kinetic Form to get 20+ foot reach with actually high damage on your AoOs. This gives you better AoO-type battlefield control than any other class really.

[Tuvarkz]

Well, it's a thematically fun class. It may be T4 for the most part, but so are other classes.
It's playable, you just need to avoid some traps (anything that costs much more burn than you can absorb) and take the good options.

And with the good options, it can actually be solid at some stuff.
Though the most two things the class does well are:
- Aether Kineticist using at-will improved mage hand and Telekinetic Finesse to play a Rogue who does everything at range.
- Focus on Attacks of Opportunity with Kinetic Whip and Kinetic Form to get 20+ foot reach with actually high damage on your AoOs. This gives you better AoO-type battlefield control than any other class really.

T5, rather. Remains at same damage rate of Expert with bow for earlygame, doesn't bypass Warrior with bow until late. That is, without taking itself out via Burn.

[Novawurmson]

Another resource: Talents sorted by element. (https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B48Da6OoNofJRWNXVzlxampkWkU&usp=drive_web)

If you're familiar with the 3.5 Warlock, they're pretty similar. Just "elements" instead of "mwahahaha."

[Serafina]

That's a common argument that I have honestly never seen backed up by calculations.
It also just compares tower-style single-target DPS. Granted, Kineticists are horrible at AoEs too until high levels - but they're more flexible than archers in terms of engagement range and movement. That accounts for something too.
Plus, there's Kinetic Blade builds if you really want to go for DPS, at which point you're low T4 in terms of damage and get a boost from having some more utility than most other T4 classes.

[EisenKreutzer]

That's a common argument that I have honestly never seen backed up by calculations.
It also just compares tower-style single-target DPS. Granted, Kineticists are horrible at AoEs too until high levels - but they're more flexible than archers in terms of engagement range and movement. That accounts for something too.
Plus, there's Kinetic Blade builds if you really want to go for DPS, at which point you're low T4 in terms of damage and get a boost from having some more utility than most other T4 classes.

Since the tiers are a representation of versatility, not damage, shouldn't that be the other way around? Increased utilty should put them higher in the tier list, while damage shouldn't really factor into it.

[genderlich]

Since the tiers are a representation of versatility, not damage, shouldn't that be the other way around? Increased utilty should put them higher in the tier list, while damage shouldn't really factor into it.

I believe the tier list is both versatility and how good it is at doing those things. So Monk could be T5 even though it has a lot of abilities and tools, but they're all bad or contradictory or hard to make work without godlike stats.

[Tuvarkz]

The tier list, in a TL;DR version is basically:
Tier 1: Can do anything and everything and be the best at all of them. (Prepared Full casters and some spontaneous full caster archetypes)
Tier 2: Can do most things, and is the best at a few of them (Spontaneous Full casters and a couple 6/9 caster archetypes, plus Summoner)
Tier 3: Can do most things, competent in basically every situation (6/9 casters, Sacred Servant Paladin)
Tier 4: Competent at one thing, not as good at the rest. (Unchained martials, 4/9 casters and some pure martials)
Tier 5: Not the best at the thing it allegedly should be best at, and terrible in other situations (Almost every other pure martial)
Tier 6: Not good at one single thing (Core Monk)

[Psyren]

The tier list, in a TL;DR version is basically:
Tier 1: Can do anything and everything and be the best at all of them. (Prepared Full casters and some spontaneous full caster archetypes)
Tier 2: Can do most things, and is the best at a few of them (Spontaneous Full casters and a couple 6/9 caster archetypes, plus Summoner)
Tier 3: Can do most things, competent in basically every situation (6/9 casters, Sacred Servant Paladin)
Tier 4: Competent at one thing, not as good at the rest. (Unchained martials, 4/9 casters and some pure martials)
Tier 5: Not the best at the thing it allegedly should be best at, and terrible in other situations (Almost every other pure martial)
Tier 6: Not good at one single thing (Core Monk)

Core PF monk is T5, not T6. Bloodrager is a 4/9 that is T3 (and has full caster level too.) Otherwise this is accurate.

[Tuvarkz]

Yeah, monk is T5. It was Swashbuckler that is T6.
I go by this chart:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OG15EBUB1n4IEHl5GhzpV10hYqPkgtbfj4PIxZFh0E0/edit#gid=0
And yeah, Monstrous Physique Doppleganger Bloodrager is T3.

[Snowbluff]

If you're familiar with the 3.5 Warlock, they're pretty similar. Just "elements" instead of "mwahahaha."

Can you still PrC into casting classes like the warlock?

[Novawurmson]

Yeah, T6 is Commoner. Even the core Monk has more skills, more and better class skills, better hit points, all good saves, proficiency with more than just one simple weapon, effectively full BAB when flurrying (+1 attack as a swift action by spending a ki point, too), +60ft. move speed at level 20, stunning fist, bonus feats (that ignore prerequisites), evasion+improved, full BAB for combat maneuvers, immunities, dimension door, and more. Is it better than the warrior, expert, commoner, and aristocrat? Yes. Would I rather play an Unchained Monk or add archetypes? Yes, always. But you get my point.

[Psyren]

I also doubt that Swashbuckler is T6, level+dex to damage counts for a lot.


Can you still PrC into casting classes like the warlock?

They have a caster level thanks to Kinetic Blast, so PrCs with "caster level X" as the requirement will work. But there are few PrCs worth mentioning in PF anyway.

[Mara]

The way I play Kineticist it's tier 3 with all the neat aether powers. The damage is strong with gather power plus empower or kinetic blade. You have to pump both dex and con. Avoid energy blast until 7th. Physical blast are how you deal damage.

Aether can be invisible while flying while animating colossal objects. At the same time you can fill the rogue role.

Notes: in pf empower also increases flat mods, so say the devs numerous times.

Char sheet:
link (https://onedrive.live.com/redir?page=view&resid=32792B0FEB5EC221!856&authkey=!AO7G_dnEZ81nQbI)

With +15 to hit we do (5d6+18)*1.5 damage for zero burn.

[Psyren]

The way I play Kineticist it's tier 3 with all the neat aether powers. The damage is strong with gather power plus empower or kinetic blade. You have to pump both dex and con. Avoid energy blast until 7th. Physical blast are how you deal damage.

Aether can be invisible while flying while animating colossal objects. At the same time you can fill the rogue role.

Notes: in pf empower also increases flat mods, so say the devs numerous times.

Char sheet:
link (https://onedrive.live.com/redir?page=view&resid=32792B0FEB5EC221!856&authkey=!AO7G_dnEZ81nQbI)

With +15 to hit we do (5d6+18)*1.5 damage for zero burn.

Posts like this make me happy. Let's see an "Expert with a bow" do that!

[Kurald Galain]

Posts like this make me happy. Let's see an "Expert with a bow" do that!

That's not so hard, actually. Any expert with a bow can surpass those numbers.
(edit) by which I mean the English word "expert", as in somebody who is trained to be good at something, not the NPC class "expert". Seriously, does anyone ever use NPC classes in a relevant part of gameplay?

Using any full-BAB archer class and a longbow, we get numbers like +15 to hit (+9 BAB, +6 dex, +3 magic weapon, +1 weapon focus, +1 haste, -3 deadly aim, -2 rapid shot) for 1d8+11 (+6 deadly aim, +2 strength, +3 magic weapon), for an average of 54 damage (counting the iterative as half damage for convenience's sake). For a fighter, that's 61 because of weapon training. For a ranger with Instant Enemy, make that 68 damage. For a paladin with Smite, it adds up to 82; and all of these get about +2 to hit as well. Also for comparison, a draconic sorcerer with mage's tattoo and a CL trait will deal 54 damage with Scorching Ray as a ranged touch attack (and can do this every round), or 45 damage with Fireball in a rather big area.

By comparison, Mara's kineticist deals 53 average damage. Now 53 damage is perfectly acceptable and a useful addition to any party, but it's also clearly behind other ranged classes.

[Mara]

Thankfully an aether does far more than damage, but can do damage when needed.

This one can mentally lift 900lbs with the finesse required to disable traps. For one burn she can lift 9000lbs. She can turn invisible at will and sneak past blindsense. She can summon cover at will and heal the same amout as her blast damage (one burn for her or the target). She can do any maneuver at range (+19 cmb for it). She has good ac, ref, and fort. She has a regenerating pool of temp health on top of her silly amount of hp at this level (even with burn). Her only real weaknesses are will saves and cmd.

Yeah the damage is OK. It's also not all you do.

[Kurald Galain]

Thankfully an aether does far more than damage, but can do damage when needed.
Thankfully, a paladin, ranger, or sorcerer also do far more than damage, but can do more damage when needed. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah their damage is great. It's also not all they do.

[Serafina]

I'm sorry, but you just used a Full-BAB class to get basically the same damage as that Aether Kineticist.
An Expert is obviously not a Full-BAB class, so that does not at all support the "Expert with Bow does more damage than the Kineticist".

And yes, a Fighter will out-damage a Kineticist, no doubt about it.
But the Fighter will not do it while having self-provided flight or invisibility, nor an ability to animate objects or disarm traps from a safe distance away.
And of course, the Expert with a Bow won't be able to do such things either.

If we go for a pure damage race, the Kineticist can get nasty with Kinetic Blade. The character linked would - with Haste - deal +15/15/10 with 5D6+12 damage, which adds up to an average of 74 damage.


But again, the point of the post was not to say "well, they do great damage", but much more "they do decent damage and get nifty utility on the side".

And Kineticists do get some things other classes simply can't do. 35 foot reach (Kinetic Form + Kinetic Whip), or attacking and moving 480 feet on the same turn (Ride the Blast + Extreme Range (960 foot with Airs reach)), at-will Animate Object or Elemental Summoning (Aether Puppet/ ), at-will Telekinesis.

They're obviously no competition to spellcasters in the utility-department, but then again nobody who isn't capable of at least 6th-level spells is.
But the tools above can be sufficient - if used well - to push you into the T3 category.


Building a Kineticist who stands still and dishes out high damage is a trap.
The same goes for a Kineticist who dishes out area damage.
In both cases, you can't compete with most T4 classes and with spellcasters.

Instead, you should build a highly mobile switch-hitter (you don't care about range or movement, you work regardless of that), possibly one that can cover whole rooms with AoOs. Then you try to cover gaps in your groups utility, which you should be able to do reasonably well.

As that, the Kineticist is a decent class. It still has a lot of flaws, but nothing crippling or making it worthless.

[Greenish]

That's not so hard, actually. Any expert with a bow can surpass those numbers.

Using any full-BAB archer class and a longbow...I think by "Expert with a bow", they meant the NPC class using a bow, not someone who's an expert at using a bow.

[Kurald Galain]

I think by "Expert with a bow", they meant the NPC class using a bow, not someone who's an expert at using a bow.
Why on earth would you compare a PC class to an NPC class? Yes, we get that a kineticist is better than a commoner, friggin' duh. The question is how it compares against real classes.



If we go for a pure damage race, the Kineticist
If we go for a pure damage race, the kineticist loses by a substantial margin; we've just proved that.


But again, the point of the post was not to say "well, they do great damage", but much more "they do decent damage and get nifty utility on the side".
Indeed. The point is that so do most other classes. Almost every class gets nifty utility on the side, except the fighter.


As that, the Kineticist is a decent class. It still has a lot of flaws, but nothing crippling or making it worthless.
That's what I just said.

[Greenish]

Why on earth would you compare a PC class to an NPC class?To convince people said PC class is weak (and belongs to a low tier), apparently:

T5, rather. Remains at same damage rate of Expert with bow for earlygame, doesn't bypass Warrior with bow until late. That is, without taking itself out via Burn.

Psyren's comment was a direct reference to above.

[Vhaidara]

Why on earth would you compare a PC class to an NPC class? Yes, we get that a kineticist is better than a commoner, friggin' duh. The question is how it compares against real classes.

People were saying that the Expert did MORE damage than the kineticists. That's why it was brought up.

[Kurald Galain]

To convince people said PC class is weak (and belongs to a low tier), apparently:

Oh, right. Isn't "tier 5" shorthand for "I dislike this class" these days? Based on that criterion, the summoner is clearly tier 5 :smallbiggrin:

[Tuvarkz]

The math is here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/3iafk2/how_good_is_the_kineticist/

Also, moving 480 feet? Save for a once-or-twice in a campaign scenario, you are not going to be needing more than 120 feet of movement (And in most cases, 30 is enough). 35 foot reach is nothing more than a pounce in many situations (And the Barbarian having about enough HP to eat a full attack to the face in the enemy's turn).
And as much as I'm loathe to admit it, the Fighter can bring his own utility:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/15YKqNTJJVOwI3yLUTHlMS43KBoE9lbLYcQQ6W-0KLeE/edit

[Greenish]

35 foot reach is nothing more than a pounce in many situations (And the Barbarian having about enough HP to eat a full attack to the face in the enemy's turn).Doesn't Kineticist actually threaten said reach? Because 35' threaten radius is a lot different from pounce.

[Kurald Galain]

And as much as I'm loathe to admit it, the Fighter can bring his own utility:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/15YKqNTJJVOwI3yLUTHlMS43KBoE9lbLYcQQ6W-0KLeE/edit

Much as I like the phrasing of that fighter guide, I must point out that it doesn't do squat until around level 11. Pretty much all of the perks it mentions rely on having a +5 weapon, feats that require +11 or better BAB, or enough UMD ranks to reliably use wands with a charisma penalty.

So in practice, that means that the fighter will get utility several levels after your campaign ends. In terms of utility, kinny clearly beats the fighter, hands down. Yeah, you can make a pretty good case that a fighter, cavalier, gunslinger, or swashy can do damage and nothing else, but kinny is well ahead of that.

[Serafina]

The math is here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/3iafk2/how_good_is_the_kineticist/The DR comparision quoted in this thread (Expert/Fighter (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rn8q&page=11?General-Discussion-Kineticist#511), Kineticist (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rn8q&page=11?General-Discussion-Kineticist#545)) was from before the book was even released - it was using playtest data, and wasn't even doing that entirely correctly.

It was looking at a level 10 competition against a CR 10 (so AC 23) target.
The given DPR was 45 for the Expert and 95 for the Fighter, I won't check that math.
Also, level 10 is kinda unfair to the Kineticist since that is exactly one level before they get Supercharge - which is more useful than the additional iterative other classes get at that level.

So, what can a level 10 Kineticist do?
Dex 24, Con 22, +2 to both from Overflow. Weapon Focus (Kinetic Blast), Point-Blank Shot. Small Size
At this level, a Kineticist Diadem (Lesser) should be easily affordable, adding 1D6 to blast damage.
Blast Damage: 5D6+1D6(Diadem)+5+Con(7)+Overflow(6)+1 (PBS) for a total of 6D6+19 or an average of 40.
If gathering energy, this can be increased by 50%, for a total of 60.
To hit will be +7 (BAB) + 8 (Dex) + 3 (Overflow) + 1 (Weapon Focus) +1 (Size) +1 (PBS) for a total of +21. So you only miss on a 1 or 2, or in other words in 10% of cases against a CR-equivalent opponent.
Final DPR: 54

That has the expert beat handily. It is far below the fighter, but it's pretty hard to out-damage a focused archer fighter. Also, unlike the fighter you can circumvent wind walls, can probably fly and more importantly will lose less DPR if you have to move.

Also, if you get to level 11, the calculation will suddenly change a lot:
Blast Damage: 12D6+12+1D6(Diadem)+Con(8)+Overflow(8)+1(PBS) for a total of 13D6+29, average 74.5
Or in other words, almost 20 points of extra DPR. Level 10 might be some sort of standard for DPR-comparisons, but it's actually pretty unfair to the Kineticist.


Now, a more severe problem is that you'll profit less (only once instead of 3-5 times) from other factors that boost damage, such as Bardic Song, and that you won't normally profit from Haste.
However, this can be circumvented by using Kinetic Blade/Whip, which also gives a higher DPR in general.


Also, moving 480 feet? Save for a once-or-twice in a campaign scenario, you are not going to be needing more than 120 feet of movement (And in most cases, 30 is enough). 35 foot reach is nothing more than a pounce in many situations (And the Barbarian having about enough HP to eat a full attack to the face in the enemy's turn).Yes, you won't need it that often.
But the fact remains that you can do it, and it doesn't even necessarily have to be a straight line - with Snaking Infusion, you can move to any place within 120 feet.
Never mind that 120 feet is still way more than either a Fighter or an Expert can pull off - you'll close that distance in a single standard action, they'll need four move actions (two with Haste). Oh and that standard action does inherently come with an attack too, so it's not even wasted on movement, and it can go in any direction. That may not make a character great on its own, but it is a very useful option.

Also, don't be deliberately obtuse.
I explicitly stated that the 35 foot are REACH, not just "range at which you can attack". Given that each of you will have high dexterity and that each of your AoOs will do your full blast damage, that is pretty nasty.
Granted, a more common version will be 20 foot reach - but that's still a 40-foot long square of any room where you heavily disincentive movement.


And the Kineticist can do everything that Utility-fighter can. All that's required is ranks in UMD (Kineticist even gets it natively, saves you a trait. And has more skill points), Craft Wondrous Item (Kineticist has a caster level, so you won't have to bother with Master Craftsman) and a Familiar (any class can grab Arcane Eldritch Heritage).
That's not Fighter-specific utility, that's Utility anyone who has four feats to spare (and the Kineticist will only need three) can grab.

[Kurald Galain]

Wait, are you seriously going to prove that kinny has more utility than a fighter or expert? Yes, fighter and expert suck at utility, everybody knows that. Yes, kinny wins that comparison instantly. No, that doesn't really say anything about the class. It would be more meaningful to compare it to a rogue or inqusitor instead.



Also, level 10 is kinda unfair to the Kineticist since that is exactly one level before they get Supercharge
Level 10 is, however, the traditional comparison point for classes. It is also unfair to any full-BAB class (who get an extra attack), any primary spellcaster (who get 6th level spells), any bard (who get +50% to inspire competence), and so forth. Besides, if you must cherry pick a level where the kinny is better than the competition, then that pretty much defeats your point.

But yes, you should take Haste into account. Any party worth its salt at level 7+ is going to have Haste running in most combats, it really is that good.

[Milo v3]

It would be more meaningful to compare it to a rogue or inqusitor instead.
Rogue that deals more damage, has better defences, can go invisible, flies, can heal people, animates objects, has temporary hitpoints, and can damage creatures immune to critical hits.

[Vhaidara]

Point of order, undead (and I think constructs) are not immune to sneak attack in pf.

[Kurald Galain]

Rogue that deals more damage, has better defences, can go invisible, flies, can heal people, animates objects, has temporary hitpoints, and can damage creatures immune to critical hits.

I'm not entirely sure if you're saying that the rogue has these advantages over kinny, or vice versa. Either way, showing some proof would be better than a bland assertion.

[Milo v3]

I'm not entirely sure if you're saying that the rogue has these advantages over kinny, or vice versa. Either way, showing some proof would be better than a bland assertion.

Aether kineticist does all that stuff.

[Mara]

Aether kineticist does all that stuff. I'll post the whole build to go along with the actual character that was linked up thread.

Dual Talented Human ||7 18 19 10 8 8||perception, stealth, sleight of hand, disable device||indomitable will, trap finder
1 weapon finesse, basic telekinesis, telekinetic blast, burn, gather power, extended range
2 elemental defenses(force ward), telekinetic finesse
3 combat reflexes, elemental overflow, kinetic blade
4 telekinetic haul
5 quick draw, infusion specialization, metakinesis, bowling infusion
6 internal buffer, telekinetic invisibility
7 extra wild talent (kinetic healer), expanded element(self telekinesis, aetheric boost, force blast)
8 telekinetic maneuvers
9 extra wild talent (kinetic cover), extreme range
10 greater self telekinesis
11 extra wild talent (furry of blast),supercharge, wall
12 aether puppet
13 extra wild talent (kinetic whip), disintegrating infusion
14 kinetic form
15 extra wild talent (force ward), expanded element(ride the blast)
16 composite specialization, telekinetic globe
17 extra wild talent (touch sight), many throw
18 reverse shift
19 extra wild talent (spell deflection), metakinetic master, foe throw
20 omnikinetic, reactive touch sight

[Kurald Galain]

Aether kineticist does all that stuff.

Good. Having more utility than a rogue actually says something, whereas having more utility than the fighter doesn't.

So rogue wins in damage, kinny wins in utility. Sounds good to me.

[Mara]

Good. Having more utility than a rogue actually says something, whereas having more utility than the fighter doesn't.

So rogue wins in damage, kinny wins in utility. Sounds good to me.
Debatable if Unchained rogue wins damage. A twf with Revised action economy? Sure. Normal action economy rogue? Not likely outside of some very particular builds.

[Psyren]

Sneak Attack and Dex to damage is tough to beat, but straight comparisons like that miss some subtleties. For instance, in a DPR comparison with an Aether Kineticist you'd also have to look at what the Colossal Aether Puppet is dishing out and add that to the Kineticist's total.

[Serafina]

And of course, all the factors that play into actual damage:
Damage Reduction (hard to bypass for physical blasts), Critical Hits (can't really build for them with a Kineticist), Elemental Resistance/Immunities, AC vs. Touch AC, miss chances (really nasty for the Kineticist, but bypassable via area damage) and so on and so forth.

What's important is that the Kineticist can deliver useful damage. It's enough to noticeably contribute to bringing down an enemy and can bring down weaker enemies on it's own.
And while it's not comparable to high-DPR builds, it does come with inherent flexibility in terms of range, mobility and targeting (AC, Touch-AC or Reflex).
Combine that with a few neat tricks each type of Kineticist can pull, and it's a solid class. It's only disappointing if you expect an elemental ranged damage dealer (which is it pretty mediocre at, surpassed by unoptimited spellcasters and outdamaged by martial archers).

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, there's no way that Kineticist is an optimal ranged DPR. Archers can spew hundreds of damage, and even more if they are casters. Heck, the Arcane Archer in my team has refused to to use Named Bullet and my trick anymore because it's "too good," and that's coming from a guy who manages to be cheesier than I. :smalltongue:

[genderlich]

All these stats have only talked about the aether element. Ars the other elements just THAT much worse?

[Psyren]

All these stats have only talked about the aether element. Ars the other elements just THAT much worse?

Fire is (because all it can really do is damage, while the other elements do damage plus other things.) I haven't dug into the class enough to know what the others can do, though Air's at-will flight is worth mentioning.

[Mara]

All these stats have only talked about the aether element. Ars the other elements just THAT much worse?
Aether is what I work with. Better builds expand into other elements. Earth into Air seems popular. Aether is also a good secondary element.

Pure fire can work, you have to use mobile blast and use that fire in conjunction with other talents to mess people up. You also have to grab fire-bypass talents.

But I'm out of my element. Aether is what I focused on.

[Serafina]

Well, in terms of damage it's relatively simple:
You look at Blast Types: Physical (vs. AC, more damage, non-elemental damage) vs. Energy (vs. Touch-AC, less damage, elemental damage).
Then you look at options to enhance that damage, but those are relatively rare.

Aether and Earth only get a Physical Blast, but they can choose between Bludgeoning, Piercing or Slashing Damage.
Air and Water get both Physical Blasts and Energy Blasts, but their physical blast only deals bludgeoning.
Fire only gets an Energy Blast, and it's Fire Damage to boot.

That's what you'll be using until 11th level, where Composite Blasts get viable. Those are a bit more complicated, but mostly it boils down to "half energy, half physical damage" and you have to worry about what damage types those are. The exceptions are Aether (which gets two crappy composite blasts, dealing less damage), Fire (fire being a weaker elemental damage) and Earth (double Earth gets the excellent Metal Blast, which has variable physical damage types).

Then there are a few Infusions that help with dealing damage, but they don't add that much.
Air: Airs Reach doubles the range of all blasts that include air for no cost.
Earth: Rare Metal Infusion (metal blast only) allows your blast to overcome one damage reduction overcome by metal (adamantine, cold iron or silver)
Magnetic Infusion adds +4 to your next attack and Save-DCs against one target.
Fire: Fires Fury adds your overflow bonus to your damage (stacks if you get that already), so thats between +1 and +6 to damage.
Burning Infusion sets enemies on fire (1D6 damage/round), but also grants +2 to your further blasts.
Searing Flame reduces enemy fire resistance by the damage of burning infusion.


So in terms of damage, it's probably best to go with Earth/Earth or Earth/Air and not worry about damage reduction much in either case.
If you go with Fire and invest a lot into your damage and don't run into tons of resistances and immunities, you can do notable damage as well.


Now Utility - that's much more complicated to answer.
Aether gets the nifty telekinesis of course, including the ability to use disable device and sleight of hand at range.
But the other elements also get stuff, mostly related to shaping their elements - which can be pretty great if you use it well. There's stuff like gaining a burrow speed, or flight (air, and Fire, but also water which gains air walk (well, like Frozone)), summoning Elementals, moving and shaping earth or water.

[Mara]

Aether can also summon elementals but they have to be aether elementals which may be released in the next bestiary. So says the dev that wrote the class.

[dramatic flare]

Aether also gains flight via Self-telekenesis. Works exactly as Flame Jet.

[Texas Snyper]

@Mara: Have you looked at or tried an aether/x kineticist yet? Because I'm looking at an aether/earth/air one for my campaign that I just started. I'm aiming for a high utility and battlefield control 'rogue'. I'm not sure how long/far the campaign(s?) will go in terms of max level so I planned for a full 20. Here is what I've got right now. Human WT = the 1/6 wild talent that human kineticists get, plotted out to get full at key levels to maximize talent picks, +1 HP will be picked otherwise. The human WT is really nice since it doesn't have the -2 requirement that the feat has.

Human: |8 16 17 10 12 8| Disable Device, Perception, Slight of Hand, Stealth, UMD | Reactionary +2 init, Vagabond Child (Urban) +1 disable device and class skill
1 Elemental Focus(Aether), Infusion(Extended Range), Feat(Point Blank Shot), Human Feat(Precise Shot)
2 Utility Wild Talent(Telekinetic Finesse)
3 Infusion(Pushing), Feat(Weapon Focus Blast)
4 Utility Wild Talent(Telekinetic Haul)
5 Infusion(Bowling), Feat(Ability Focus (Blast)/Improved Initiative)
6 Utility Wild Talent(Telekinetic Invisibility)
7 Expanded Element(Earth), Feat(Ability Focus (Blast)/Improved Initiative), Human WT(Self Telekinesis)
8 Utility Wild Talent(Expanded Defense[Flesh of Stone])
9 Infusion(Foe Throw), Feat(EWT(Entangling))
10 Utility Wild Talent(Self Telekinesis, Greater)
11 Infusion(Wall), Feat(EWT(Earth Climb))
12 Utility Wild Talent(Suffocate)
13 Infusion(Grappling), Feat(EWT(Impale))
14 Utility WT(Ride the Blast), Human WT(Earth Glide)
15 Expanded Element(Air), Feat(EWT(Celerity))
16 Utility WT(Reverse Shift)
17 Infusion(Many Throw), Feat(EWT(Aether Puppet/Kinetic Form/*Deadly Earth*))
18 Utility WT(Expanded Defense[Enveloping Winds]/Aether Puppet)
19 Infusion(Cloud), Feat(EWT(Fragmentation))
20 Utility WT(Aerial Evasion/Spell Deflection/Telekinetic Deflection)

[Mara]

@Mara: Have you looked at or tried an aether/x kineticist yet? Because I'm looking at an aether/earth/air one for my campaign that I just started. I'm aiming for a high utility and battlefield control 'rogue'. I'm not sure how long/far the campaign(s?) will go in terms of max level so I planned for a full 20. Here is what I've got right now. Human WT = the 1/6 wild talent that human kineticists get, plotted out to get full at key levels to maximize talent picks, +1 HP will be picked otherwise. The human WT is really nice since it doesn't have the -2 requirement that the feat has.

Human: |8 16 17 10 12 8| Disable Device, Perception, Slight of Hand, Stealth, UMD | Reactionary +2 init, Vagabond Child (Urban) +1 disable device and class skill
1 Elemental Focus(Aether), Infusion(Extended Range), Feat(Point Blank Shot), Human Feat(Precise Shot)
2 Utility Wild Talent(Telekinetic Finesse)
3 Infusion(Pushing), Feat(Weapon Focus Blast)
4 Utility Wild Talent(Telekinetic Haul)
5 Infusion(Bowling), Feat(Ability Focus (Blast)/Improved Initiative)
6 Utility Wild Talent(Telekinetic Invisibility)
7 Expanded Element(Earth), Feat(Ability Focus (Blast)/Improved Initiative), Human WT(Self Telekinesis)
8 Utility Wild Talent(Expanded Defense[Flesh of Stone])
9 Infusion(Foe Throw), Feat(EWT(Entangling))
10 Utility Wild Talent(Self Telekinesis, Greater)
11 Infusion(Wall), Feat(EWT(Earth Climb))
12 Utility Wild Talent(Suffocate)
13 Infusion(Grappling), Feat(EWT(Impale))
14 Utility WT(Ride the Blast), Human WT(Earth Glide)
15 Expanded Element(Air), Feat(EWT(Celerity))
16 Utility WT(Reverse Shift)
17 Infusion(Many Throw), Feat(EWT(Aether Puppet/Kinetic Form/*Deadly Earth*))
18 Utility WT(Expanded Defense[Enveloping Winds]/Aether Puppet)
19 Infusion(Cloud), Feat(EWT(Fragmentation))
20 Utility WT(Aerial Evasion/Spell Deflection/Telekinetic Deflection)Well you should grab the Trap Finder trait that makes it a class skill, gives +1 and let's you disable magical traps. You seem to have optimized for blasting (at least initial feats) I would try to work in telekinetic maneuvers. I would also try to get aether puppet sooner.

Your build actually seems more optimized than mine.

[Talieth]

To add to what Mara said : if the trait that give trap finder is not avaiable, you can also go for rogue VMC : you will gain trapfinder at level 3, but also add half your level to disable device... and the sneak attack dices at lvl7 are juste a little bonus.

[Milo v3]

To add to what Mara said : if the trait that give trap finder is not avaiable, you can also go for rogue VMC : you will gain trapfinder at level 3, but also add half your level to disable device... and the sneak attack dices at lvl7 are juste a little bonus.

.... probably not worth half your feats though.

[Psyren]

.... probably not worth half your feats though.

Kineticist doesn't have much to spend its feats on anyway I thought

[Texas Snyper]

Well you should grab the Trap Finder trait that makes it a class skill, gives +1 and let's you disable magical traps. You seem to have optimized for blasting (at least initial feats) I would try to work in telekinetic maneuvers. I would also try to get aether puppet sooner.

Your build actually seems more optimized than mine.

I wanted to and my DM initially said yes because I was going to be the party rogue but somebody decided to actually play a rogue so I went with Vagabond Child instead since Trap Finder is a campaign trait. I am focusing on my blasting. I had telekinetic maneuvers initially but I ended up dropping it, is it really worth it? Doesn't doing a maneuver replace an attack action? Why not just use my infusions to do the tripping or grappling?

I suppose I could swap aether puppet with celerity. But otherwise, I'd prioritize my improved flight and suffocate over the puppet.