[Feat] Two Weapon Mastery

[Matthew]

[Edited, Revised and Updated]

Frankly, because Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation just don't cut it for Fighters.


WEAPON MASTERY [GENERAL]
Choose one two types of weapons. You can also choose Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike) as a weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapons, Two Weapon Fighting, Base Attack Bonus +1, Fighter Level 1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all Attack Rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll) and Damage Rolls you make when using the selected weapons together.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times for the same weapons and the effects stack, but each time you take the feat for this purpose your Base Attack Bonus and Fighter Level must be four points higher than the last time you took the Feat for those weapons. Alternatively, you may take it for a new pair of weapons.
When you use the Attack Action or the Full Attack Action in Melee and are wielding the selected weapons, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your Attack Roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a Parry Bonus to your Armor Class against Melee Attacks. This number may not exceed your Two Weapon Mastery Attack Bonus with the selected weapons. If you are wielding a Shield as one of your selected weapons, you may also apply this Bonus against Ranged Attacks. The changes to Attack Rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.
This feat does not stack with Weapon Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFocus) or Weapon Specialization (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponSpecialization), Greater Weapon Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greaterWeaponFocus#greaterWeaponFocus), Greater Weapon Specialization (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greaterWeaponSpecialization#greaterWeapo nSpecialization), Weapon Mastery, Melee Weapon Mastery or Ranged Weapon Mastery.
A Fighter may select Weapon Mastery as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats.



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Okay, tell me if this has been done before, but I have had this idea kicking about for a while. How about a Feat that allows a Character to specialise in the use of two weapons when used at once, granting him +1 Attack Bonus, +1 Damage Bonus and +1 Armour Class when using the Two Weapon Fighting Full Round Attack Action? I am not thinking two same sized weapons here, but rather Long Sword and Short Sword or Long Sword and Hand Axe or whatever... Power Attack might be a problem, but I usually allow Power Attack to work with Light Weapons, so it's not an issue for me.

The only Prerequisite I have in mind is Two Weapon Fighting. I was thinking I could pattern it on my Weapon Mastery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31267) Feats, so that it stacked at Levels 1, 6, 11 and 16...

Any thoughts?

[Matthew]

Hmmn, no thoughts about this? ...and it sounded like such a good idea in my head...

[Charity]

Sounds like the old second edition weapon styles thingy... Oh, a vocabulary is a terrible thing to waste. You know the things.
anyhow;
Anything that improves TWF is good, but you will need some feat that allows you to power attack with light weapons to get closer to parity. (in this regard 3.0 rules were more balanced between TWF and THF IM(ES)HO)

[FoeHammer]

You say that only two weapon fighting would be needed. What about improved two weapon fighting:smallconfused:

[ZeroNumerous]

I, personally, have always advocating crunching TWF, ITWF, and GTWF into one feat that gets better as you progress. That really helps a TWF character measure up, feat-wise. As for the power-attack problem..

Oversized Two-Weapon fighting. TWF a pair of Longswords. Power attack.

[Arlanthe]

As conceived it seems somewhat overpowered. +1 attack, damage, and AC are all sort of high. Think about dodge, which adds +1 AC to one enemy alone, or weapon focus, which adds +1 attack alone. Even expertise adds +1 AC at the expense of +1 to atack for the round.

I actually think it's a good idea, but I might either tone it down a bit, create a "trade off" penalty, or create two tiers- a "Greater Two Weapon Mastery" as well.

[ZeroNumerous]

Yes, it's a good feat, but it only happens when you get a (oft coveted) full attack. On top of that, you're still taking the TWF penalties.

[Matthew]

Ah, nice to see this Thread get some interest (hmmn, I could have sworn I replied to Charity's post, ah well, must have been eaten up by the server).

Charity: Weapon Styles and Weapon Style Specialisations. Yeah, a little, though those were largely brought over into 3.x as Feats (Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash). As I said, I don't mind folk Power Attacking with Light weapons, but you are right to point that out when considering this as a modification to the RAW. I have a theory or two about how to reform Power Attack, but that'll have to wait. For the moment, I will simply concede that you are right.

Foehammer: Why would you need Improved, Greater or Perfected Two Weapon Fighting to use this type of Feat? I'm not sure I'm with you there.

ZeroNumerous: Yes, that is one possibility. I have never been entirely comfortable with that, but never really figured out why. My current thinking is to give Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31337) and it's iterations to Fighters, Paladins and Rangers for free as part of a 'fix' for those Classes. Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and Mobile Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1798151#post1798151) would still have to be purchased separately. I would probably give them Even Handed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1793539#post1793539) (Also known as Ambidexterity) for free as well. That would come very close to solving the Two Weapon Fighting problem for me.

Arlanthe: As ZeroNumerous points out, these advantages are more powerful, but more conditional than the Feats you mention (which are themselves quite underpowered compared to some other Feats, but that's the nature of the Feat System in 3.x). One thing I forgot to mention was the idea that this AC Bonus would not apply to Ranged Attacks.
Initially, this was intended to make using a One Handed and Light Weapon for Two Weapon Fighting more attractive. I am undecided whether it's worth it, or whether adjusting Power Attack would be a better solution (once you make it possible to use Power Attack with a Light Weapon, there's virtually no reason to spend a Feat on Oversized Two Weapon Fighting or use anything but paired Short Swords/whatever).

[Edit]
Okay, how's this:


TWO WEAPON MASTERY [GENERAL]
Choose a One Handed Weapon and one Light Weapon (including Light or Heavy Shield and Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike)) as your weapons for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapons, Base Attack Bonus +1, Fighter Level 1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all Attack Rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll) and Damage Rolls you make and a +1 bonus to Armour Class when using the selected weapons together.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times for the same weapons and the effects stack, but each time you take the feat for this purpose your Base Attack Bonus and Fighter Level must be four points higher than the last time you took the Feat for that weapon. Alternatively, you may take it for a new pair of weapons.
This feat does not stack with Weapon Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFocus) or Weapon Specialization (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponSpecialization), Greater Weapon Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greaterWeaponFocus#greaterWeaponFocus) or Greater Weapon Specialization (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greaterWeaponSpecialization#greaterWeapo nSpecialization).
A Fighter may select Two Weapon Mastery as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats.


For reference: Weapon Mastery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1794241#post1794241)

[magic8BALL]

This feat makes Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation and Dodge all obsolite at level one, and so I call it an unbalanced thing. How about splitting up the effects, and putting in a few more prereq's? Like such:

Bonus to Attack:

Focused Two Weapon Fighting [General]
Though you are foucused in using one type of weapon, you can use that to boost you overall fighting abilities.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Two Weapon Fighting
Benifit: Whenever you fight with two weapons, you gain a +1 bonus to all attacks. This stacks with Weapon Focus.
Special: A fighter may take this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Greater Focused Two Weapon Fighting [General]
Though you are highly foucused in using one type of weapon, you can use that to boost you overall fighting abilities.
Prerequisites: Greater Weapon Focus, Specialised Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Benifit: Whenever you fight with two weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to all attacks. This stacks with Greater Weapon Focus.
Special: A fighter may take this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Bonus to Damage:

Specialised Two Weapon Fighting [General]
Though you specialise in using one type of weapon, you can use that to boost you overall fighting abilities.
Prerequisites: Weapon Specialisation, Focused Two Weapon Fighting
Benifit: Whenever you fight with two weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to all attacks. This stacks with Weapon Specialisation.
Special: A fighter may take this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Greater Specialised Two Weapon Fighting [General]
Though you highly specialise in using one type of weapon, you can use that to boost you overall fighting abilities.
Prerequisites: Greater Weapon Specialisation, Greater Focused Two Weapon Fighting
Benifit: Whenever you fight with two weapons, you gain a +4 bonus to all attacks. This stacks with Weapon Specialisation.
Special: A fighter may take this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Bonus to AC:

Evasive Two Weapon Defence [General]
You can use your combat techniques to defend yourself well.
Prerequisites: Dodge, Two Weapon Defence
Benifit: Whenever you fight with two weapons, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC against all opponents. (This stacks with the bonus from the dodge feat, as all dodge bonuses stack)
Special: A fighter may take this feat as a fighter bonus feat.


Greater Evasive Two Weapon Defence [General]
You can use your combat techniques to defend yourself even better.
Prerequisites: Evasive Two Weapon Defence, Greater Two Weapon Defence
Benifit: Whenever you fight with two weapons, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC against all opponents. (This stacks with the bonus from the dodge feat, as all dodge bonuses stack)
Special: A fighter may take this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

...ahhh... if there is a Greater Two Weapon Defence... just like TWD, except +2 shield bonus? Well... I can throw that one in too...

I have only listed the basic prereq's. By that, I mean to get thoses prereq's you'll need other stuff. Its a quite large tree.

Well... that turned out a lot more feat intensive than I thought, but then fighters have the feats to use anyway. A mid to high level fighter can have all of these, assuming high enough dex, and still have room for Monkey Grip and Oversised Two Weapon Fighting before level 20... even Improved Initiative perhaps... and then go toe to toe with most foes around.
Anyone can get an extra +1 to attack and AC with these feats, but only the fighter can get more damge from a feat in 3.5, so I kept it that way.

[Matthew]

Whoah, Magic8Ball, are you sure about this? You're right that the Feat is powerful, but the whole point is to power up the Two Weapon Fighter without encumbering him with Feat after Feat. What you're suggesting is another six Feats on top of the already ridiculous Two Weapon Fighting chain, in addition to the Weapon Focus/Specialisation/Mastery Chain and not forgetting all the other Feats that Fighters need to have access to (and what's all this about Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and Monkey Grip?)

Human Fighter 1
Level 01 - Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, [Feat],
Level 02 - [Bonus Feat]
Level 03 - [Feat]
Level 04 - Weapon Specialisation
Level 05 -
Level 06 - Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [Feat],
Level 07 -
Level 08 - Greater Weapon Focus,
Level 09 - [Feat]
Level 10 - [Bonus Feat]
Level 11 -
Level 12 - Greater Weapon Specialisation, [Bonus Feat]
Level 13 -
Level 14 - [Bonus Feat]
Level 15 - [Feat]
Level 16 - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Level 17 -
Level 18 - [Bonus Feat], Feat,
Level 19 -
Level 20 - [Bonus Feat]

Add in Dodge, Two Weapon Defence, Greater Two Weapon Defence and your six Feats and you've just about tapped the Fighter out without even touching anything like Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Melee Weapon Mastery or Weapon Supremecy...

Now, okay, I was thinking it might be worth knocking the +1 AC Bonus down to a Dodge like Bonus (which was how I had originally intended it), but don't you think the Fighter needs less Feat intensive abilities, rather than more?

I could tighten up the language so that the benefits are explicitly only gained when using the Two Weapon Fighting (Full Round) Action and have the +1 AC Bonus only apply to Melee Attacks (though if in combination with a Shield I rather think it ought to work against ranged attacks as well).

[Yakk]

[Feat] Two Weapon Strike
An alternative means of two-weapon fighting, this technique sacrafices the normal extra attacks from using two weapons at once.

Prerequisite
Dex 15

Benefits
In exchange for taking the main-hand penalties from normal two-weapon fighting as if you had "Two-Weapon Fighting", whenever you hit with your main weapon you get a free follow-up attack with your offhand weapon. This occurs even if you are not engaged in a full-attack action: any hit with your mainhand triggers a chance to hit with your offhand weapon.

The offhand weapon has the same iterative attack penalties as your main-hand attack you are following up. The offhand to-hit penalty and damage bonus is calculated using the two-weapon fighting rules.

Normal
See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.

Special
You can use this feat in place of Two-Weapon Fighting for prerequisite purposes.

Rangers may substitute or delay any fighting style feat and take this feat instead. If so, it only works in light or no armor.

A Fighter may choose Two-weapon strike as one of their fighter bonus feats.

Example
Bob is a L 6 Fighter with Two-Weapon Strike, Weapon Focus(Shortsword) and WeaponSpec. (Shortsword). He has 18 strength, and is using two +3 shortswords.

+14/+9 to hit, +9 to damage normally.

Or, Bob can use Two-Weapon strike, which grants him +12/+7 to hit at +9 to damage, with a follow up at +12/+7 to hit and +7 to damage.

Bob charges an Ogre with 20 AC. He rolls a 10+12, hitting the Ogre with his main hand. This triggers and off-hand strike: He rolls a 5+12, which means his offhand attack misses the Ogre.

...

Note that this is both better and worse than the standard two-weapon fighting feat:

Better:
You don't have to buy upgrades to it.
It works when doing a simple attack or a charge.
It works on AoOs.

Worse:
Your mainhand has to hit to trigger an offhand swing.

[Callix]

These would all make much easier a rather insane build I've been thinking of: Dual Warhammers.
Oversize TWF, TWF et al, TWD et al, full Weapon Mastery tree and Crushing Assault. 7 attacks per round with a +1 to hit for each hit. Then there are AoO's. Power attack works too, but there aren't many spare feats... but just as a side note, Greater Elusive ATM stacks with elusive. You have to say it overlaps, or, as it's a dodge bonus, it stacks.

[Matthew]

Callix: Indeed you could or you could just use my Weapon Mastery Feats to get almost the same effect...

Sounds like a fun build, anyway.

Yakk: That's a good alternative Two Weapon Fighting idea, but bear in mind that the above Feats are intended to make odd combinations of weapons more attractive, rather than Two Weapon Fighting itself. Currently, people seem to either go with two Light Weapons or two One Handed Weapons, these are intended for Light and One Handed combinations.

[Edit]
Hmmn. I have been thinking about this a bit more. How about if you can choose from Full Round Attack to Full Round Attack whether to gain +1 AB and DB or +1 AC?

[Edited, Revised and Updated]
This is intended to complement my Weapon Mastery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31267) Feat Chain/tree, allowing Two Weapon Fighters to use different weapons in combination.