Reincarnate silly questions

[Selion]

Reincarnate is apparentely the only spell which allows to bring back from the death someone who has died of old age. That's because the spell creates a new young body to be inhabited.
The first question is about rich persons: why nobles don't reincarnate indefinitely? It is a 4th level spell, it should be totally affordable for them.
The other question is about the last sentence of the spell:
A wish or a miracle spell can restore a reincarnated character to his or her original form.
What happens if someone who has died of old age is reincarnated, and someone cast wish to restore his original body?
The original body should be still a too old body to sustain life. Does a wish instantly kill anyone who tries to prolong his life with reincarnate?

[Psyren]

Because Inevitables, basically. Maruts come after you first as that is their main job, but routinely evading or destroying them likely attracts worse attention, including the Psychopomps and Aeons, and eventually deities themselves (e.g. Pharasma in Golarion.)


Maruts primarily target those mortal souls who have artificially extended their lifespans beyond what is feasible for their race, such as liches and other powerful magic users. Extraordinary but natural means of cheating death are sometimes also punished, such as the magistrate who murders an entire starving town to save himself, or those who foresee their own deaths via divination magic and are therefore able to avoid them.

[Kurald Galain]

The first question is about rich persons: why nobles don't reincarnate indefinitely? It is a 4th level spell, it should be totally affordable for them.

(1) What makes you think they don't?
(2) If you're an arrogant noble, you might not like having a substantial chance of coming back as a kobold, half-orc, or something similarly... uncivilized.
(3) The webcomic Girl Genius has a surprisingly good answer for that, i.e. that the law accounts for this and if you get resurrected/cloned/whatnot you still count as "dead" for the purpose of power and inheritage.

[Selion]

(1) What makes you think they don't?
(2) If you're an arrogant noble, you might not like having a substantial chance of coming back as a kobold, half-orc, or something similarly... uncivilized.
(3) The webcomic Girl Genius has a surprisingly good answer for that, i.e. that the law accounts for this and if you get resurrected/cloned/whatnot you still count as "dead" for the purpose of power and inheritage.

Nice, my next PC will be an educated reincarnated goblin that has failed to be recognized as the legitimate heir of himself, it sounds funny.

[legomaster00156]

Because Inevitables, basically. Maruts come after you first as that is their main job, but routinely evading or destroying them likely attracts worse attention, including the Psychopomps and Aeons, and eventually deities themselves (e.g. Pharasma in Golarion.)
Campaign plot! Save Lord Genericallyrich from Inevitables who have come for him, for reasons unknown to the party.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Reincarnate explicitly forbids using it to revive someone who's died of old age. Last sentence of the sixth paragraph of the spell description.

Sorry for spoiling the fun :smallfrown:

[AmberVael]

Reincarnate explicitly forbids using it to revive someone who's died of old age. Last sentence of the sixth paragraph of the spell description.

Sorry for spoiling the fun :smallfrown:

Yeah. Its an understandable misconception though. The way people use Reincarnate to get around age is through this clause:

The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand.

But you can't raise someone who died of old age, so you just choke on a dagger or something before its too late, then get reincarnated and be young again.

[Crake]

Yeah. Its an understandable misconception though. The way people use Reincarnate to get around age is through this clause:


But you can't raise someone who died of old age, so you just choke on a dagger or something before its too late, then get reincarnated and be young again.

Overdosing on nightshade would probably be a more pleasant way to go :smalleek:

[Mithril Leaf]

Overdosing on nightshade would probably be a more pleasant way to go :smalleek:

Does a heart attack from a good carousing count as old age?

[Jack_Simth]

Reincarnate explicitly forbids using it to revive someone who's died of old age. Last sentence of the sixth paragraph of the spell description.

Sorry for spoiling the fun :smallfrown:
Ah, but that's the 3.5 version. The thread is specifically tagged Pathfinder - and the Pathfinder Version of Reincarnate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/reincarnate) explicitly includes the clause: "The spell can bring back a creature that has died of old age."

Mind you, you're soaking 2 negative levels... but Restoration can fix that in Pathfinder.

[Kraken]

It looks like the pathfinder version retains the abuse potential of 3.5 in many other ways. You could pick a race with bonus mental stats and poor physical stats, and get reincarneted but keep the mental bonuses. Or be a human, get reincarnated, but keep your extra ranks and feat.

[Spore]

It looks like the pathfinder version retains the abuse potential of 3.5 in many other ways. You could pick a race with bonus mental stats and poor physical stats, and get reincarneted but keep the mental bonuses. Or be a human, get reincarnated, but keep your extra ranks and feat.

You don't get mental boni for the new race.

[Kraken]

You don't get mental boni for the new race.

Right. But you keep them from the old race. So you create an assimar, and get reincarnated. You keep the +2 wisdom and charisma, keep toying around until you get reincarnated as a bugbear, and then you're rocking +4/+2/+2/+0/+2/+2 as your ability score adjustments. Not bad for, say, a druid.

[Spore]

Right. But you keep them from the old race. So you create an assimar, and get reincarnated. You keep the +2 wisdom and charisma, keep toying around until you get reincarnated as a bugbear, and then you're rocking +4/+2/+2/+0/+2/+2 as your ability score adjustments. Not bad for, say, a druid.

This feels extremely cheesy to me. It's not extremely overpowered but insane effort for a moderate gain of power. And I feel the problem in society while being a bugbear can only be cirumvented by a) staying in the woods (and outta adventuring groups) and b) waiting until Thousand Faces kicks in.

[grarrrg]

Right. But you keep them from the old race. So you create an assimar, and get reincarnated. You keep the +2 wisdom and charisma, keep toying around until you get reincarnated as a bugbear, and then you're rocking +4/+2/+2/+0/+2/+2 as your ability score adjustments. Not bad for, say, a druid.

Strictly speaking an (typical) Aasimar could not Reincarnate into any of the races in the default table. The table is for "humanoids", and Aasimar are "Outsiders".

But there is still plenty of room for shenanigans.
The easiest of which is to take the Scion of Humanity alternate Race Trait, BOOM now you're Outsider AND Humanoid.

The somewhat bonus-stupid part of all this, is that you could be a Human, put your +2 into WIS, and "reincarnate" into a Human, and now you have +2 CON and +2 WIS.

The other bonus-stupid part is that you get 2 Negative levels, unless you are level 1, in which case you take CON damage instead.
What if you are at level 2?
Level 2 characters are effectively immune to Reincarnate, as it just makes them dead again.

[Jack_Simth]

This feels extremely cheesy to me. It's not extremely overpowered but insane effort for a moderate gain of power. And I feel the problem in society while being a bugbear can only be cirumvented by a) staying in the woods (and outta adventuring groups) and b) waiting until Thousand Faces kicks in.
There's always the Greater Hat of Disguise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/hat-of-disguise)... and the 12k market on it isn't really significant compared to the cost of getting yourself killed, reincarnated, and Restoration'd several dozen times to get the roll you want... but yeah.

Also of note, of course, is that while the Bugbear is on the list... it's got the exact same probability as "Other (GM's choice)" - so it's got a built-in anti-power-gaming clause for people who are doing it over & over.

[grarrrg]

Also of note, of course, is that while the Bugbear is on the list... it's got the exact same probability as "Other (GM's choice)" - so it's got a built-in anti-power-gaming clause for people who are doing it over & over.

Not really.
If the GM is letting you abuse Reincarnate at all a bad race will not stop you, you'll just "roll again".
The GM needs to put a stop to it by some other way than just letting you "spin to win".

[zergling.exe]

Not really.
If the GM is letting you abuse Reincarnate at all a bad race will not stop you, you'll just "roll again".
The GM needs to put a stop to it by some other way than just letting you "spin to win".

Gm's choice - You reincarnate as a mindless vermin. You run away from the people doing the reincarnate loop before they can continue it.

A jerk move on the GM's part but a possible anti-abuse tactic. Especially if they dropped hints this could happen.

[Quertus]

Gm's choice - You reincarnate as a mindless vermin. You run away from the people doing the reincarnate loop before they can continue it.

A jerk move on the GM's part but a possible anti-abuse tactic. Especially if they dropped hints this could happen.

Since "mindless vermin" isn't even remotely humanoid, it shouldn't happen, any more than coming back as a tarrasque. Although, if "mindless vermin" did happen in a game I was in, I'd totally be trying to find the probability manipulation spells necessary to come back as a tarrasque (or something far better) in that world. Personally, I would love to be reincarnated as an inevitable, to start perverting all their missions. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Since "mindless vermin" isn't even remotely humanoid, it shouldn't happen, any more than coming back as a tarrasque. Although, if "mindless vermin" did happen in a game I was in, I'd totally be trying to find the probability manipulation spells necessary to come back as a tarrasque (or something far better) in that world. Personally, I would love to be reincarnated as an inevitable, to start perverting all their missions. :smalltongue:

Since the only outcome that could lead to Tarrasque is "GM's Choice", no amount of probability manipulation will help. (But buying the pizza might.)

If you mean in-universe, that would be up to the gods - but the only one crazy enough to try and make a second Big T would be the guy who spawned him in the first place, Rovagug, who has no allies among the other deities since he's basically the Snarl.

[Kurald Galain]

It would be hilarious if the origin story of the first and only Tarrasque (or any eldritch abominiation of your choice, really) was "reincarnation spell gone awry" :smallbiggrin: