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King of Casuals
2015-09-29, 12:57 PM
So im currently DMing a game of Pathfinder, and one of my players is currently a level 7 Gnomish Druid whose animal companion is a Mountain lion. The player wants to try and cast Awaken on this mountain lion as soon as he can, making it sentient. The problem is that the Awaken spell explicitly states that an awakened animal cannot be an animal companion, familiar, special mount, ect.

Now on one hand, I personally believe that this rule is stupid and that if you are friends with an animal, giving it sentience won't make it not follow you, as it would probably appreciate you making it intelligent and freeing it from the shackles of savagery.

On the other hand, I've had to deal with GMs who have a habit of bending or ignoring rules just because they don't understand them and it can tend to get a bit frustrating. Yes, I've usually been pretty lenient with the rules, saying most of the time that if it doesnt say you cant then you can, but this is going directly against something said in the rules.

So I gotta ask the playground, does anyone have any advice?

Honest Tiefling
2015-09-29, 01:00 PM
Make it a plot! He's trying to find the right ritual to augment his buddy without losing his special bond with him. That should make it quite clear you are bending the rules for the sake of awesome, not badly applying them.

You can also toss in rewards for the rest of the party in said quest, should the rest of the party exist. That way, no one feels left out.

Seto
2015-09-29, 01:02 PM
Well, there's a reason you can't Awaken an animal companion. I'm not sure what it is, but I'm sure there's a reason. Nah, seriously, I wouldn't directly contradict the rules like that without a good reason. I could see an argument of balance against it : the Animal Companion becomes a lot more useful than it already was if it's able to understand everything you say and do it (or even improvise on its own). It's supposed to help you through known tricks.

King of Casuals
2015-09-29, 01:37 PM
Make it a plot! He's trying to find the right ritual to augment his buddy without losing his special bond with him. That should make it quite clear you are bending the rules for the sake of awesome, not badly applying them.

You can also toss in rewards for the rest of the party in said quest, should the rest of the party exist. That way, no one feels left out.

Ehh I have way too many subplots going on at the same time for the other players, adding another side quest wouldn't be the best idea.

Flickerdart
2015-09-29, 01:40 PM
An animal companion isn't just a druid's follower - it's a natural creature imbued by the power of nature. An awakened animal is an animal no longer, but a magical beast, and no longer suitable to bond with a guardian of nature. Why druids get a spell to make animals unnatural is a separate question entirely, but there you go.

Honest Tiefling
2015-09-29, 01:43 PM
Ehh I have way too many subplots going on at the same time for the other players, adding another side quest wouldn't be the best idea.

Slip it into another sidequest. One of the baddies of which has been killing druids, giving this player a reason to help the others on the quest. In the loot, they find the ritual...Which can only be completed once.

RolkFlameraven
2015-09-29, 02:38 PM
There isn't anything stopping him from awaking his buddy, it just wouldn't be improved by its bond with him any longer. He could talk to it, and it, most likely, would help out, but now its an NPC and gets a share of the loot and xp.

The spell did work as a buff in Neverwinter Nights, you could take a look at that version. Its much weaker then the real spell but as the Animal companion would still get the buffs for being an Animal companion that isn't, necessarily, a bad thing.

Urpriest
2015-09-29, 02:51 PM
The default fluff is that if you Awaken your animal companion it now has a lot of soul-searching to do and, while it appreciates your efforts, probably isn't going to be adventuring with you in the near future. There's just too much room for abuse of power there, otherwise, as the animal figures out its new identity.

Game mechanicswise, Pathfinder is very careful to make sure animal companions are never out of the ordinary in any way, much more careful than 3.5 is about it, so I would be very cautious about allowing this sort of modification.

BowStreetRunner
2015-09-29, 02:57 PM
Ask yourself how the relationship between the druid and animal companion will change. How do you currently handle the druid's relationship with his animal companion? Do you require the Druid to use Handle Animal to teach the companion tricks and limit the amount of control the druid has over the companion to that allowed by Handle Animal? Or do you allow the player to pretty much control the animal companion however he likes?

If you fall in the more restrictive group, consider that an intelligent companion will no longer need to be taught tricks in this way and will be able to perform any action a rational being would normally be able to perform. In this case it would be more appropriate to treat the newly awakened animal companion as a new NPC character. The player could pick up Leadership to keep them as a cohort or some similar arrangement could be made.

If you fall into the less restrictive group you are not alone. Many DMs give their players almost carte blanche when it comes to animal companions. In this case the awakened state would have little effect on the relationship and it would not have much impact if you allow the animal companion to be awakened and remain an animal companion.

Red Fel
2015-09-29, 03:10 PM
There isn't anything stopping him from awaking his buddy, it just wouldn't be improved by its bond with him any longer. He could talk to it, and it, most likely, would help out, but now its an NPC and gets a share of the loot and xp.

This. An Awakened animal companion is now an NPC; if it adventures with the party, it does so as its own adventurer, not as your animal companion buddy. It's no longer an obedient creature at your beck and call; it has its own wants, needs, and thoughts. That independence severs the connection that enables it to draw strength from you.


The default fluff is that if you Awaken your animal companion it now has a lot of soul-searching to do and, while it appreciates your efforts, probably isn't going to be adventuring with you in the near future. There's just too much room for abuse of power there, otherwise, as the animal figures out its new identity.

And this. Think about what your animal companion does. Generally, it either (1) performs tricks for you, (2) fights alongside you, and/or (3) serves as a mount (if it's rather big and you're rather not). Now, imagine that this creature has been doing this for quite some time, and is entirely satisfied with the arrangement. He gives it precious little thought, because he's capable of precious little thought. All of a sudden, he has a mind. An intellect. A sense of identity. And it's sudden, alright; it's not like someone who grew up with a consciousness, and developed their own identity gradually over the years; this is a creature who suddenly is and knows, and has never had a chance to figure out what that means.

And you want him to perform tricks, fight alongside you, and/or continue to serve as a mount? He's kind of having an existential crisis at the moment, thank you. Even if he does decide to stay with you - which is no guarantee - the dynamic has to change, it must change, because the creature has changed. He's no longer what he was, and would likely resent being treated as the same dumb beast you knew before.

Not everyone treats conscious thought as a blessing. Think, for example, about how this animal related to its own. Now think about how alone it must feel. Awakened animals aren't exactly around every corner. Imagine your wolf trying to have a conversation with other wolves, only to realize that they don't think about anything other than eating, sleeping, and mating... And your wolf is no longer satisfied with that. He should be happy that you made him so unique, so lonely?

Read Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, is what I'm saying.

ThreadNecro5
2015-09-30, 04:26 PM
in my first group we Awakened the druids raptor companion. the way our GM handled it was that it stuck with the party as a player controlled NPC and still essentially acted as the animal companion (and the player did not get a new one). essentially we just developed the character a bit. our GM also gave it seven barbarian levels but it was rather unbalanced (the raptor was already a walking Apocalypse, now it just used an earth breaker).

later on I took a stint GMing, the players got a wish, and long story short the world was forced to welcome Leeroy Jenkens the dinosaur horseman of the apocalypse.

likely not the most constructive response but figured I may as well comment on my experience in a similar situation.

Snowbluff
2015-09-30, 08:33 PM
An animal companion isn't just a druid's follower - it's a natural creature imbued by the power of nature. An awakened animal is an animal no longer, but a magical beast, and no longer suitable to bond with a guardian of nature. Why druids get a spell to make animals unnatural is a separate question entirely, but there you go.

... Wait... humans are animals, too.

Also, how is it not okay for a Druid, a magical human, to have a magical animal companion? I do it all the time with an Arcane Hierophant, or if I have an exalted companion like Friar Tuck the Celestial Fleshraker. I mean, druids... are magical, so how is being magical departed from nature. Conversely, vermin are "natural," but not a default option for druids.

Crake
2015-09-30, 10:35 PM
how is it not okay for a Druid, a magical human, to have a magical animal companion? I do it all the time with an Arcane Hierophant, or if I have an exalted companion like Friar Tuck the Celestial Fleshraker. I mean, druids... are magical, so how is being magical departed from nature.

A vanilla druid derives it's connection with it's companion from a mutual bond of nature. Awakening an animal instead imbues it with that bond to nature on it's own, it gains HD and intelligences from this (and not bonus HD either, so it may cause the creature to go up in size, such as a wolf) but in exchance it loses it's ability to bond with another, the same way a human or pegasus cannot be a bonded companion. The arcane heirophant on the other hand takes the arcane bond a wizard or sorcerer has, and uses the druidic connecton with the animal companion to allow him to create that same bond with his animal companion instead, using the druidic connection as something of a means to enable a connection where once there was no ability to do so. Finally, an exalted companion is similarly not a equivilent example, because you're taking your bond of nature and imbuing it with celestial energy.

Creating a bond with a creature requires it to be capable of making that bond to begin with. What you're describing is all different ways that bonds change the creatures you're bonding with, rather than the base creature itself being different in some way. It's not that a companion can't be made magical by the bond, it's that the companion must be a creature that is able to to be bonded with in the first place. Even just a normal wolf that has been advanced a single HD is too self developed and independent enough for a druid to form a bond with.


Conversely, vermin are "natural," but not a default option for druids.

I think that's because vermin, being mindless, lack any ability to be trained or tamed in any reasonable fashion (except by those who are specifically trained in it. I believe drow of the underdark have a feat that let you have a monstrous spider animal companion).

eggynack
2015-09-30, 11:27 PM
I don't really go in for the whole underlying justification thing. You could plausibly justify just about anything in existence under the banner of "magic derived from nature", so claiming that a particular thing should be allowed based on that banner just doesn't make all that much sense. You get the ability to do the things you can do, and not the things you can't do, because you're necessarily slicing out progressively larger chunks of the cake of nature, rather than eating the whole thing at once or necessarily eating any of it at all. The rule that you can't awaken your animal companion is no more or less stupid than the rule that you can't natively wild shape into a humanoid, or cast control winds at first level.

I mean, jeez, you don't even have to really try to get a magical beast animal companion. Just go for a watchspider from waterdeep, and there ya go, and if you want sentience then toss an item on. It's a trivial barrier to break through, if perhaps a costly one. Come up with whatever justification you like. It'd be too powerful, or it's called "animal" companion for a reason, or magical beasts aren't natural enough for whatever reason. It really doesn't matter what you go with. But I'd advise against making big decisions on the premise that any of this isn't ultimately arbitrary.

Deophaun
2015-10-01, 12:10 AM
Druid: "Mr. Mittens, kill that trog!"
Awakened Tiger: "Hell no. I still haven't gotten the taste from the last one out of my mouth. And that was three months ago."
Druid: "Use your claws, then."
Awakened Tiger: "Are you kidding? I just had these manicured."
Druid: "There's a fish in it for you."
Awakened Tiger: "A fish? A FISH! Oh, so just because I'm a cat, that must mean I like fish, right? What's next? You gonna take a ball of yarn out and expect me to roll on my back and be all cute for you? Get the wizard to cast a light spell in his spyglass so I can chase after it? That's just ignorant."
Druid: "Mr. Mittens, calm down."
Awakened Tiger: "Mr. Mittens is my PET name. I'm Rharha now!"

noob
2015-10-01, 11:48 AM
An awakened animal have a very low probability to become or follow one adventurer: only the maddest of the criminals do that.

Cirrylius
2015-10-02, 01:30 AM
The default fluff is that if you Awaken your animal companion it now has a lot of soul-searching to do and, while it appreciates your efforts, probably isn't going to be adventuring with you in the near future.

With the exception of the abuse of power, this is exactly what happened to my GF when she tried to Awaken her wolf. Knowing the DM, it was a motivational decision, not a balance one- given how op-ready Druids are, it probably wouldn't have made an appreciable difference even then.