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Fax Celestis
2007-05-18, 08:28 PM
Unlike most other Fighter variants you'll see out there, this one does not attempt to make the Fighter stronger in combat--this does, mind you, but not to the degree of some. Instead, this one chooses to make the exemplary fighter that of a great warrior-leader, warlord, general, or commander-at-arms. As he progresses in level, he grows through martial prowess and into leadership.

This variant also uses the idea of auras similar in spirit to those of the Marshal--and to a lesser extent, similar to the Bard's Bardic Music ability.

Exemplary fighters from myth, tale, and legend include King Arthur, Theoden-King, Sigurd, Gilgamesh, Cuchullain, Finn MacCool, and Beowulf.

{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Auras
1st | +1 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Bonus Feat | 1
2nd | +2 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Bonus Feat | 1
3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | - | 2
4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Bonus Feat | 2
5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Bonus Feat | 2
6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +2 | +5 | - | 3
7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Bonus Feat | 3
8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +6 | Bonus Feat | 3
9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +3 | +6 | - | 4
10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Commandant | 4
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Bonus Feat | 4
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +4 | +8 | - | 5
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Combat Prowess | 5
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +9 | Bonus Feat | 5
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +5 | +9 | - | 6
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Warlord | 6
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Bonus Feat | 6
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +11 | - | 6
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Combat Mastery | 6
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +12 | Legendary | 7
[/table]

HD: d10

Class Skills (4 + Int): Balance, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Engineering and Architecture), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Listen, Martial Lore, Profession, Ride, Spot, Swim, Use Rope

Proficiencies: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as one exotic weapon of their choice. They are also proficient with all armors and with all shields (but not tower shields). A fighter who uses a weapon he is not proficient with for at least three combats--and suffers the penalties for non-proficiency--gains proficiency with that weapon.

Auras (Ex): A fighter's mere presence is a stirring and motivating force, particularly on the battlefield. At first, third, sixth, ninth, twelfth, fifteenth, and twentieth levels, a fighter selects an aura from the list below. A fighter may have one aura active at a time, and any bonus provided by an aura is considered a morale bonus unless stated otherwise. Switching an aura is a swift action.

Bonus Feat: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 11th, 14th, and 17th levels. These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing feats gained through advancing in level.

Commandant: At 10th level, a fighter gains a companion--a like-minded individual who wishes to study underneath him. Use the table below to determine level of the companion. Add the character's fighter level to his Charisma score to determine his Commandant Score. At this point, he is only allowed one companion, regardless of what the chart reads.

Companions tend to follow in the footsteps of their masters when it comes to class and feat selection, and tend towards the same as their master when it comes to race, alignment, weapon selection, and ability scores, but this is largely up to the DM. A companion must be a humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature whose ECL does not surpass the value listed in the chart below or the fighter's own ECL-2, whichever is lower. In addition, a companion is limited to the following base classes: barbarian, dragon shaman, knight, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue, and scout.

Companions are unique individuals and are not easily replaceable, nor are the blindly loyal to the fighter. A fighter who loses one of his companions--whether by death or by departure--must seek out and find a new one before he can continue advancing as a fighter.

Combat Prowess (Ex): Starting at 13th level, a fighter adds 1/4 his fighter level (rounded down) to all fixed, numerical bonuses gained from feats designated as Fighter Bonus Feats as a competence bonus. Do note that competence bonuses gained in this manner do not stack. Furthermore, he may forego the use of two feats for a duration of one minute--effectively losing them for a short time--to reroll an attack roll, saving throw, or combat-related skill check. If, by losing a feat in this manner a fighter fails to meet a prerequisite for another feat, he loses access to that feat as well.

Warlord: At 16th level, a fighter's fame grows, and he attracts more companions. He is now allowed to have multiple companions, though only one is allowed to be at the ECL listed on the chart (or at the fighter's level -2); all others must be at the listed ECL -2, at the fighter's level -4, or lower.

Combat Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a fighter adds 1/3 his fighter level (rounded down) to all fixed, numerical bonuses gained from feats designated as Fighter Bonus Feats (instead of the 1/4 he would gain from Combat Prowess) as a competence bonus. Do note that competence bonuses gained in this manner do not stack. Further, he may forego the use of one feat for a duration of 1d4 rounds--effectively losing the feat for a short time--to reroll an attack roll, saving throw, or combat-related skill check. If, by losing a feat in this manner a fighter fails to meet a prerequisite for another feat, he does not lose access to that feat.

Legendary: At 20th level, a fighter is a living legend. He attracts more followers. At this point, a fighter gains the Leadership feat as a bonus feat, though he does not gain a cohort (already having something similar in his companions). He also gains the ability to found a small town to rule; the followers gained through leadership are inhabitants in this town. Most of these followers are members of the working class--such as smiths, scribes, farmers, and the like--though some (particularly the higher level ones) hail from other professiosn. Government, laws, diplomacy, and the like are all left up to the fighter.

Auras
Bloodlust
Whenever an enemy falls within 10' + 5'/4 fighter levels, the fighter gains a +1 unnamed bonus to all damage rolls. This bonus lasts until the end of the encounter.

Calculating
The fighter and all allies within 5' + 5'/4 fighter levels gain a bonus to Dexterity-related checks equal to 1/2 the fighter's fighter level (round down).

Courageous
The fighter and all allies within 5' + 5'/4 fighter levels gain a bonus to damage rolls equal to 1/2 the fighter's fighter level (round down).

Dauntless
The fighter and all allies within 5' + 5'/4 fighter levels gain a bonus to Armor Class equal to 1/3 the fighter's fighter level (round down).

Everlasting
The fighter and all allies within 5' + 5'/4 fighter levels gain a bonus to Constitution-related checks equal to 1/2 the fighter's fighter level (round down).

Fearless
The fighter and all alies within 5' + 5'/4 fighter levels become immune to fear.

Mighty
The fighter and all allies within 5' + 5'/4 fighter levels gain a bonus to Strength-related checks equal to 1/2 the fighter's fighter level (round down).

Minacious
The fighter gains a bonus to intimidate equal to the number of allies within 10' + 5'/4 fighter levels.

Obstreperous
All enemies within 5' + 5'/4 fighter levels get a penalty to Concentration checks equal to 1/2 the fighter's fighter level (rounded down).

Relentless
The fighter and all allies within 5' 5'/4 fighter levels gain spell resistance equal to 5 + the fighter's fighter level.

Resilient
The fighter and all allies within 5' + 5'/4 fighter levels gain damage reduction 1/-, plus an additional DR 2/- equal to 1/4 the fighter's fighter level (round down). This stacks with other sources of DR, such as a barbarian's class feature.

Scheming
All enemies within 5' + 5'/4 fighter levels get a penalty to Armor Class equal to 1/3 the fighter's fighter level (rounded down).

Triumphant
The fighter and all allies within 5' + 5'/4 fighter levels gain access to a pool. This pool has one point in it for each three fighter levels the fighter possesses. Any ally within the aura--including the fighter--can remove one point from the pool to reroll a saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll as an immediate action.

Unshakable
The fighter and all allies within 5' + 5'/4 fighter levels receive a 5' bonus to land speed, plus an additional 5' per four fighter levels the fighter possesses.

Vigilant
The fighter and all allies within 5' + 5'/4 fighter levels receive a bonus to Listen and Spot checks equal to 1/2 the fighter's fighter level (Round down).

Commandant
{table=head]Commandant[br]Score | Follower[br]Level | Number of[br]Followers
1 or less | 1 | 1
2 | 1 | 1
3 | 2 | 1
4 | 3 | 1
5 | 3 | 1
6 | 4 | 1
7 | 5 | 1
8 | 6 | 1
9 | 6 | 1
10 | 7 | 1
11 | 8 | 1
12 | 9 | 1
13 | 10 | 2
14 | 11 | 2
15 | 12 | 2
16 | 13 | 2
17 | 14 | 2
18 | 15 | 3
19 | 15 | 3
20 | 16 | 3
21 | 16 | 3
22 | 16 | 3
23 | 16 | 4
24 | 17 | 4
25 | 17 | 4
26 | 17 | 4
27 | 17 | 4
28 | 18 | 5
29 | 18 | 5
30 | 18 | 5
31 | 18 | 5
32 | 19 | 5
33 | 19 | 6
34 | 19 | 6
35 | 20 | 6
36 or more | 20 | 7
[/table]

Matthew
2007-05-18, 08:36 PM
Heh, a return to the (A)D&D Fighter as leader of men... Looks good to me, though I worry that the genericness of the Fighter is being undermined here. Increased Skill Access and Skill Points never do any harm...

Fax Celestis
2007-05-18, 08:39 PM
Heh, a return to the (A)D&D Fighter as leader of men... Looks good to me, though I worry that the genericness of the Fighter is being undermined here. Increased Skill Access and Skill Points never do any harm...

You want a generic warrior, use the Warrior NPC class, I say.

Matthew
2007-05-18, 08:45 PM
Nah, Fax, that would be a generic NPC Class, that's bad mojo. Fighters are a PC Class, world of difference... as you well know. Anywho, it's just the usual objection when people give the Fighter specific abilities.

(Oh yeah, I would give them Good Saves in all three, might as well)

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-18, 09:21 PM
Two good saves, full BAB, and some very good specialty abilities and a companion who stacks with the cohort from Leadership? Why the hell be any other melee class?

Arbitrarity
2007-05-18, 09:37 PM
Don't use the other classes, use ToB, Fax's Paladin, etc.

Course, the issue with this is the fact that, as a leader of men, you have both your own, and the combat resources of many others. This means you get the equivalent of leadership abuse, except more easily.

Except in this case, not so much. What you get is a bunch of fighters.

Matthew
2007-05-18, 09:38 PM
Fax appears to be updating a few Base Classes; I would imagine the Ranger and Barbarian will get their treatment eventually. The How It Should Be Paladin is somewhere around here already...

Fax Celestis
2007-05-18, 09:38 PM
Two good saves, full BAB, and some very good specialty abilities and a companion who stacks with the cohort from Leadership? Why the hell be any other melee class?

You apparently haven't seen ToB classes, or the How-It-Should-Be Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551). Where the ToB classes are built for combat supremacy--Crusader for resilience, Swordsage for finesse, and Warblade for power--and the How-It-Should-Be Paladin is built to be a divine champion, this Fighter is built for tactical supremacy.

The thing here is that this fighter is a warlord leader. The barbarian, ranger, and knight are all frontliners. This fighter is capable of frontline combat, but is better in a tactical position--particularly with his auras. Further, this introduces some MAD into the equation, what with Cha-dependency added for the companion/leadership side of things.

All in all, this fighter is a tactical leader first and foremost. Ranger, Barbarian, Rogue, Sorceror, and Bard are all slated for HISB-ing (if you'll pardon the acronym) too, so don't worry about them: I'm not done yet.

Also, to address a particular point:
At this point, a fighter gains the Leadership feat as a bonus feat, though he does not gain a cohort (already having something similar in his companions).

Orzel
2007-05-19, 04:33 AM
Ilike it. It's very similiar to the fighter change I'm using for a setting I'm making. It gets a helper, followers, and auras (remnaed commands, can be offense or defensive, and can be taught be other fighters) too.

NOOOOO! SPOT AND LISTEN AS CLASSS SKILLS!

me no likey that.

Ceiling009
2007-05-19, 04:45 AM
So commandant is basically getting the Leadership feat... but you get a companion, which isn't a cohort... could you have both?

Morty
2007-05-19, 07:01 AM
Huh. Nice, thogh I don't know if I like the whole followers thing... maybe give fighter an option to make his party members his followers, thus giving them some additional bonuses? Fighter always hanging around with one or two companions doesn't appeal to me. And it would hurt someone who wants to make fighter, but wants him to be a loner.

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-19, 08:18 AM
Stuff

I ask that you don't be condescending, because I happen to be a very-outspoken advocate for ToB. The problem I'm putting forward is that the "How-It-Should-Be" Fighter makes playing a damage-dealing melee class kind of pointless. Why do that when you can give crazy bonuses to your Bard Uber-diplomat friend and take over the world?

Better yet, you didn't give a limit on Companions, so why not get a bunch of companions who are, assuming you're twenty, sixteenth level and have all them be wizards, clerics, and druids? You've got all your bases covered.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-05-19, 08:53 AM
All in all, this fighter is a tactical leader first and foremost. Ranger, Barbarian, Rogue, Sorceror, and Bard are all slated for HISB-ing (if you'll pardon the acronym) too, so don't worry about them: I'm not done yet.


Fax, are you planning on releasing your works as a book? If you release a .pdf with your improved classes as Open Game Content, I would certainly pony up the cash for it (as soon as I can pry the credit card from my wife's claws, of course)

Serenity
2007-05-19, 09:59 AM
Ilike it. It's very similiar to the fighter change I'm using for a setting I'm making. It gets a helper, followers, and auras (remnaed commands, can be offense or defensive, and can be taught be other fighters) too.

NOOOOO! SPOT AND LISTEN AS CLASSS SKILLS!

me no likey that.

I can see no compelling reason why Spot, Search, and Listen are not class skills for EVERYBODY. Because I swing an axe, I can't comprehend my surroundings?

AngelAndrius
2007-05-19, 09:59 AM
I like the increased skills, I tried to do the same thing when it came to skill points with my variant fighter (making the fighter playable again, thread in general gaming) by giving them bonuses. I would definitely consider increasing their range of class skills, and agree they need more bonuses/skill points. It seems we're both seeing eye to eye on that one.

As for your idea of fighter, I do not agree that a fighter should be taken as a tactical genius. Yes, a lot of fighters are indeed this archetype, but there are sooooo many ways to play fighter I would hate to limit fighter's flavor by implementing class abilities. Although some people may argue that class abilities dont impact RPing, I wholeheartedly disagree, gaining followers and being the leader of a small town absolutely will impact RPing and I would hate to leave the most open of the RP melee classes that restricted. To be a leader, you kinda have to act as one. I know your argument is that Swordsage and Warblade represent martial prowess, but I see no reason why fighter shouldn't either.

Besides there are PLENTY of prestige classes that lead to this leader/general bit thing, Purple Dragon Knight off the top of my head. The base class of knight kinda did this idea too, I would modify knight to fit your new schematic before fighter.

And lastly, Auras? Meh, that kind of screams paladin or especially divine mind to me.

Basically, what about the lone warrior dedicating to mastering the art of the long spear??? That leaves very little room for followers or auras, why should someone like that care? You must admit, that that is a perfectly acceptable, and somewhat popular use of the fighter class.

So anyways that's my beef with you concept. I tried to stay away from messing with the fighter's flavor, but I definitely agree that fighter needs a fixup.

p.s. here's my fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44495)

consider a revision of class skills definitely in order. and of course, the feats remain the same as the original, same d10 HP, saves, and skill points.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-19, 12:12 PM
I ask that you don't be condescending, because I happen to be a very-outspoken advocate for ToB. The problem I'm putting forward is that the "How-It-Should-Be" Fighter makes playing a damage-dealing melee class kind of pointless. Why do that when you can give crazy bonuses to your Bard Uber-diplomat friend and take over the world?

Better yet, you didn't give a limit on Companions, so why not get a bunch of companions who are, assuming you're twenty, sixteenth level and have all them be wizards, clerics, and druids? You've got all your bases covered.

I don't mean to be condescending. It just seems like you're not reading the whole class. First, companions and cohorts don't stack: you can't have both. Second, I do limit companions, right in the chart below the class. Unless you're speaking about a limit of some other kind.

Also hte bonuses from auras aren't that crazy.

Talanic
2007-05-19, 04:11 PM
Resilient
The fighter and all allies within 5' + 5'/4 fighter levels gain damage reduction 1/-, plus an additional DR 2/- equal to 1/4 the fighter's fighter level (round down). This stacks with other sources of DR, such as a barbarian's class feature.

Recheck the phrasing here. Is it supposed to be DR 1/-, +2/- per 4 fighter levels?


Triumphant
The fighter and all allies within 5' + 5'/4 fighter levels gain access to a pool. This pool has one point in it for each three fighter levels the fighter possesses. Any ally within the aura--including the fighter--can remove one point from the pool to reroll a saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll as an immediate action.

How long does it take for the points to regenerate? Really need to know that, unless they're gone for good...

IonizedChicken
2007-05-19, 04:36 PM
Nice class. I sort-of like it that the Fighter has gained an additional purpose besides 'hitting stuff' (uh, helping others hit stuff). Wouldn't fighters have good Reflex saves, though? Fighting does involve reflexes.

I'd also like to point out that there are less Constitution- and Strength- based skills than Dexterity based skills. In fact, there is only one Constitution-based skill (Concentration, which most characters don't need at all; those that do are probably not going to stand within 10 feet of the Fighter). Sure, there are various Constitution checks, and while ability checks may make up for the lack of Strength-based skills, I don't think they do so for Constitution as well.

So, yeah, I think you should either add additional bonuses to Everlasting or drop it altogether.

Captain van der Decken
2007-05-19, 04:53 PM
Recheck the phrasing here. Is it supposed to be DR 1/-, +2/- per 4 fighter levels?
Looks like fairly simple wording to me. That is, yes.


Does Calculating's dex related checks include initiative and reflex?

OOTS_Rules.
2007-05-19, 05:47 PM
How does it work at epic-level?

DreadArchon
2007-05-19, 10:12 PM
Hmmm... your idea gives me one. I don't know why I didn't think of this before...

Suppose that I gestalted Fighter with Marshal in my campaign. No special modifications, just straight-up mashing them together. (Except, perhaps, for first and possibly second level--both Fighter and Marshal are currently (1) weak and (2) great as dip classes for one or two levels, and I'd rather not create some sort of penultimate dip class here.)

Too good? Not good enough (due to MAD)?

Reinboom
2007-05-19, 10:24 PM
This feels unattractive to certain alignments who potentially still would wish to be a fighter. As a chaotic neutral or evil, for example, I wouldn't want to be forced to always have a companion or I couldn't level, they would drag me down. Bleh.
A demoralizing, or forceful leader mechanic, enslaver, or just general meanie options would interest me.

Orzel
2007-05-19, 10:51 PM
I can see no compelling reason why Spot, Search, and Listen are not class skills for EVERYBODY. Because I swing an axe, I can't comprehend my surroundings?


Spot Search and Listen are for finding things you are not supposed to see. Sure they are untrained but challenging spot, listen, and search checks are too rare for most classes to have as class skills.

It's not "I spot a guy behind a rock"

It's "I spot the small gradient of hue and shade change of the border of the rock 's face against the trees caused be the mild glare of the celestial boar leather worn by the guy behind the rock."

The only person who make difficult Spot and Listen often enough to be class skills are beings who live in the wild (stealth is law in the wild), thieves and spies (to detect patroling guards and antispy spies), and people who have jobs that require dectecting accute things.

Rolling Spot/Listen is typically the sign for an ambush. The typicially fighter rarely places himself in a position to be ambushed and typically can't do jack to stop an ambush should it happen.

Add Sleight of Hand. Fighters should have excellent finger control.

IonizedChicken
2007-05-20, 06:02 AM
Spot Search and Listen are for finding things you are not supposed to see. Sure they are untrained but challenging spot, listen, and search checks are too rare for most classes to have as class skills.

It's not "I spot a guy behind a rock"

It's "I spot the small gradient of hue and shade change of the border of the rock 's face against the trees caused be the mild glare of the celestial boar leather worn by the guy behind the rock."

The only person who make difficult Spot and Listen often enough to be class skills are beings who live in the wild (stealth is law in the wild), thieves and spies (to detect patroling guards and antispy spies), and people who have jobs that require dectecting accute things.

So you're saying there is a difference between detecting patrolling guards and petrolling monsters in dungeons? That adventuring doesn't involve detecting anything whatsoever? Hardly. Spot and Listen are skills every class might need, and so they should be available to every class in some way or another.


Rolling Spot/Listen is typically the sign for an ambush. The typicially fighter rarely places himself in a position to be ambushed and typically can't do jack to stop an ambush should it happen.

Add Sleight of Hand. Fighters should have excellent finger control.
:S How does ability in melee combat make you unable to spot and/or hear things? If anything, it should sharpen your senses further since you need to be aware of every misstep and blunder of your opponent.

Morty
2007-05-20, 06:14 AM
This feels unattractive to certain alignments who potentially still would wish to be a fighter. As a chaotic neutral or evil, for example, I wouldn't want to be forced to always have a companion or I couldn't level, they would drag me down. Bleh.
A demoralizing, or forceful leader mechanic, enslaver, or just general meanie options would interest me.

I'd add some option for a loner fighter. Sure, D&D is team game anyway, but what if I make a lone warrior NPC(using my PrC) and I want him to be as powerful as PC? I can't use that fighter fix to do this.

Orzel
2007-05-20, 10:55 AM
So you're saying there is a difference between detecting patrolling guards and petrolling monsters in dungeons? That adventuring doesn't involve detecting anything whatsoever? Hardly. Spot and Listen are skills every class might need, and so they should be available to every class in some way or another.

:S How does ability in melee combat make you unable to spot and/or hear things? If anything, it should sharpen your senses further since you need to be aware of every misstep and blunder of your opponent.

Spot, Listen, and Search are used for to detect things others hide from them. Most classes do not save to detect hidden items on a regular basis. Therefore Few class should have those 3 skills.

It's why Wizards don't have Climb. Why Clerics don't don't have Hide. They don't use themoften and therefore rarely train them.

A common thing people foreget about guards and sneaking past them.
You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check.

If a guard is standing in forn of a door, no amount of thinking small will get you in that door without the guard noticing. You'll need to blind/kill/distract the guard or become invisible/concealed/covered. 'Cause guards can see nonivisible people standing 5 feet in front of them.

Unless there are people jumping you all the time (the wilderness) or you need to find small changes in the scenery (traps), you are getting little practice for detection and few people in your occupation would have ranks in it.



Loner fighters are call rangers :P
The Companion and auras could be handled like ranger's combat style. Choose 1, get power.

JackMage666
2007-05-20, 10:57 AM
Combat Prowess (Ex): Starting at 13th level, a fighter adds 1/4 his fighter level (rounded down) to all fixed, numerical bonuses gained from feats designated as Fighter Bonus Feats. Furthermore, he may forego the use of two feats for a duration of one minute--effectively losing them for a short time--to reroll an attack roll, saving throw, or combat-related skill check. If, by losing a feat in this manner a fighter fails to meet a prerequisite for another feat, he loses access to that feat as well.


This is my main issue, personally. At 20th level, Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus Stack, giving +12 to hit. Add on melee weapon mastery, then you have +19. Weapon Supremacy gets thrown in the mix, you get an additional +5 AC, get to take a 10 on a roll with and place a +10 on it (second roll will, on average, hit better than your first roll). That's not to mention things like Dodge giving +6 AC. Also, if you favor bludgeoning weapons, you could take Crushing Strike and suddenly ever attack after the first gets a cumulative +6 to hit (though, it's not like you'll miss already.) So, lets say a 20th level fighter with a warhammer hits all 3 times before his last attack against an enemy, and chooses to take a 10 and add his bonus (from Weapon Supremacy) onto his last attack. That'll give him an 81 to hit, and, he took a 10. This isn't even figuring in Magic Weapons.

I don't know, that seems a bit extreme. I understand tat it's supposed to mkae the fighter great at fighting, but that's still kinda ridiculous. Pretty sure he could break most god's ACs.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-20, 11:55 AM
This is my main issue, personally. At 20th level, Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus Stack, giving +12 to hit. Add on melee weapon mastery, then you have +19. Weapon Supremacy gets thrown in the mix, you get an additional +5 AC, get to take a 10 on a roll with and place a +10 on it (second roll will, on average, hit better than your first roll). That's not to mention things like Dodge giving +6 AC. Also, if you favor bludgeoning weapons, you could take Crushing Strike and suddenly ever attack after the first gets a cumulative +6 to hit (though, it's not like you'll miss already.) So, lets say a 20th level fighter with a warhammer hits all 3 times before his last attack against an enemy, and chooses to take a 10 and add his bonus (from Weapon Supremacy) onto his last attack. That'll give him an 81 to hit, and, he took a 10. This isn't even figuring in Magic Weapons.

I don't know, that seems a bit extreme. I understand tat it's supposed to mkae the fighter great at fighting, but that's still kinda ridiculous. Pretty sure he could break most god's ACs.

I hadn't even considered that possiblity. I do like the idea and the mechanic, though. Can you think of a way to make it not broken?

Fax Celestis
2007-05-20, 12:02 PM
The Companion and auras could be handled like ranger's combat style. Choose 1, get power.

The auras, though, really aren't that big a deal. He's allowed one at a time, and they have really small radii (particularly at low levels) and don't provide that big of a bonus.

Matthew
2007-05-20, 12:10 PM
I hadn't even considered that possiblity. I do like the idea and the mechanic, though. Can you think of a way to make it not broken?
Try making it:

Levels 1-5: +1
Levels 6-10: +2
Levels 11-15: +3
Levels 16-20: +4

or

Levels 1-4: +1
Levels 5-8: +2
Levels 9-12: +3
Levels 13-16: +4
Levels 17-20: +5

and just apply to X list of Feats [i.e. Dodge, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, etc... but don't stack it with the 'improved versions']

Fax Celestis
2007-05-20, 01:25 PM
try making making:

Levels 1-5: +1
Levels 6-10: +2
Levels 11-15: +3
Levels 16-20: +4

or

Levels 1-4: +1
Levels 5-8: +2
Levels 9-12: +3
Levels 13-16: +4
Levels 17-20: +5

and just apply to X list of Feats [i.e. Dodge, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, etc... but don't stack it with the 'improved versions']

Apply to "any feat that has a fighter level as a prerequisite" maybe?

Matthew
2007-05-20, 01:55 PM
Yeah, so long as it doesn't then stack with the Improved Versions in the same Tree (i.e. Greater Weapon focus, Melee Weapon Mastery, Weapon Supremecy, etc...)

Fax Celestis
2007-05-20, 02:00 PM
Updates: Made Combat Prowess/Combat Mastery provide a nonstacking competence bonus. so that one only adds the bonus once. Also limited base classes the companions have access to.

AngelAndrius
2007-05-20, 07:26 PM
This feels unattractive to certain alignments who potentially still would wish to be a fighter. As a chaotic neutral or evil, for example, I wouldn't want to be forced to always have a companion or I couldn't level, they would drag me down. Bleh.
A demoralizing, or forceful leader mechanic, enslaver, or just general meanie options would interest me.

Exactly!

*See my above argument

And no, the lone fighter does not equal ranger. Ranger equals ranger.

Leush
2007-05-21, 06:00 AM
As a bard player, I feel that your auras are not only impinging on paladin ground, but making my class even more useless. Fighters are, in my mind the most mundane of classes- they train the mundane skill of hitting things with pointy sticks to near supernatural levels.

However, that may well be internally consistent with your system.

On the other hand, combat mastery and combat prowess seem like a nice addition.

Reinboom
2007-05-21, 08:23 AM
Various Aura ideas (either self-centered or enemy afflicting):

Minacious
The fighter gains a bonus to intimidate equal to the number of allies within 10' + 5'/4 fighter levels.

Bloodlust
Whenever an enemy falls within 10' + 5'/4 fighter levels, the fighter gains a +1 unnamed bonus to all damage rolls. This bonus lasts until the end of the encounter.

Scheming
All enemies within 5' + 5'/4 fighter levels get a penalty to Armor Class equal to 1/3 the fighter's fighter level (rounded down).

Obstreperous
All enemies within 5' + 5'/4 fighter levels get a penalty to Concentration checks equal to 1/2 the fighter's fighter level (rounded down).

Fax Celestis
2007-05-21, 12:08 PM
Please note that the Fighter's auras are not core to his mechanic. They're very much a secondary feature. Also note he's only allowed one aura active at a time, and the radii on them is tiny. The Bard rewrite (which is probably next) will be better suited to what you're looking for, Leush.

For those of you who want a "Lone Fighter", I'm currently in the works of formulating 'styles' (where one chooses the Warlord path or the Battlemaster path), but I'm short on ideas for what exactly to do with the Battlemaster path.

JackMage666
2007-05-21, 05:15 PM
Oh, I forgot to add a few other feats that can be abused by Combat Prowess - Heavy Armor Optimization would get +6 Max Dex to heavy armor, and reduce Check Penalty by -6 for heavy armor. Armor Specialization now gives DR 7/-- with a specific armor (surpassing the poor Barbarian), and Shield Specialization gives +5 to any Shields AC.

The fighter should, without much touble, hit anything. Also, anything should miss the fighter.

May I suggest a fix to this to be simply Doubling all fixed numerical settings on those feats, rather than 1/4 Fighter Level? Even as a competence bonus, this leaves much room for abuse. By Doubling, you can take away the Competence, and allow the feats to stack, and you should still be at a more neutral base.

Helgraf
2007-05-22, 12:50 AM
I hadn't even considered that possiblity. I do like the idea and the mechanic, though. Can you think of a way to make it not broken?

Disable the "Greater" versions of the feat and do the following:

Make the master feat scale with level (use the current bonus as the base) - but to make the scale rate fractional by class. So Good BAB Progressions might advance the feat every 4 levels (.25 per level, truncate fractions of final value.), Average BAB Progressions might advance it every 6 levels (~.17 per level, trucate fractions of final value), and Poor BAB Progressions might advance it every 8 levels (.125 per level, truncate fractions of final value)

Multiclassing takes a bit of math, but it still adds out:

Weapon Focus [Fighter] : You gain +1 to attacks with the selected weapon. This bonus increases by .25 for every Good BAB class level you have, by .17 for every Average BAB class level you have, and by .125 for every Poor BAB class level you have. Bonus increases only when a full number is reached.

Example : Fighter 4/Druid 3/Wizard 1
(.25 * 4 + *.17 * 3 + .125 *1 = 1 + .5 + .125 = 1.625, truncates to +1) At this point, Weapon Focus would give +2 (+1 base, plus 1 for levelling.)

A pure Fighter 8, on the other hand (.25 * 8 =2 ) would get +3 from his weapon focus.

At 20 class levels :
Fighter 20 : (20 * .25 = 5) - Weapon Focus grants +6 (1 + 5)
Cleric 20 : (20 * .17 = 3.4, truncates to 3) - Weapon Focus grants +4 (1 + 3)
Psion 20 : (20 * .125 = 2.5 truncates to 2) - Weapon Focus grants +3 (1 + 2)
Cleric 18/Fighter 2: (18 * .17 = 3.06 + 2 * .25 = .5. 3.06 + .5 = 3.56, truncates to +3) Weapon focus grants +4 (1 + 3)
Fighter 10/Wizard 10: (10 * .25 + 10 * .125 = 2.5 + 1.25 = 3.75 = +3) - Weapon Focus grants +4 (1 + 3)

Helgraf
2007-05-22, 01:11 AM
Hrm. Mathsss...

2/5 Focused Effect
1/4 Good BAB
1/6 Average BAB
1/8 Poor BAB

Weapon Focus : You gain +1 attack bonus with the selected weapon. This bonus increases by .25 for every Good BAB class level you have, by .17 for every Average BAB class level you have, and by .125 for every Poor BAB class level you have. Bonus increases only when a full number is reached.

Greater Weapon Focus : Your intense studies with your chosen weapon have reaped further benefits. All of your classes are considered one BAB category higher for purposes of calculating your bonus with the Weapon Focus feat. Poor BAB class levels now count as Average. Average Class levels now count as Good. Good Class levels now count as Focused; the bonus for focused levels is .4 for every Focused class level you posses.

Fighter 20: (20 * .25 = 5) - Weapon Focus grants +6 (1 + 5)
Fighter 20 with GWF: (20 * .4 = 8 ) - Weapon Focus grants +9 (1 + 8)
Hrm.

Tricky figuring out a reasonable add. Using 1/3 as the "Focused" Benchmark means GWF only increases the Weapon Focus total by +1 for a pure fighter. Using 2/5ths (.4) increases it by +3 over 20 levels; this seems more reasonable.

Using 1/2 would increase the bonus to +11 total, or +5 more; this seems a little too much to me, but what do you think?

Orzel
2007-05-22, 04:41 AM
Please note that the Fighter's auras are not core to his mechanic. They're very much a secondary feature. Also note he's only allowed one aura active at a time, and the radii on them is tiny. The Bard rewrite (which is probably next) will be better suited to what you're looking for, Leush.

For those of you who want a "Lone Fighter", I'm currently in the works of formulating 'styles' (where one chooses the Warlord path or the Battlemaster path), but I'm short on ideas for what exactly to do with the Battlemaster path.


Here's an idea

Warlord= Special battle companions and warrior followers.
Battlemaster= Creates strategic plans which causes bonus damage in special situations.

Strategy (Ex)
At the 10th level, the fighter’s attack deals extra damage any time her target is prone or grappled, the fighter readies a strandard attack, or her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC and is more than 2 sizes larger than the fighter. This extra damage is equal to half the fighter levels plus the fighter's Int modifier (if any).

At the 16th level , all allies with 10' of the fighter gain the fighter's extra damage from strategy antime the fighter would gain the extra damage.

At the 20th level, ????

elliott20
2007-05-22, 10:28 AM
My problem with this class is not so much the flavor of the class, but the fact that this class fundamentally defies the design philosophy of the fighter.

At least, to my understanding, the fighter was meant to be the one character class with the most customizable abilities via feats.

It's just that, the feats stop being worthwhile after a while. Most feats that fighters can take that actually work well together are usually the ones that allows you to dish out more damage. but beyond dishing out more damage, the fighter really isn't all that good at doing anything else because the feats available just don't allow him to get very good at doing anything else. So, while a Two-Hand Weapon fighter has a bunch of feats to help him dish out more damage with his THF style, TWF, Sword and Board, or One Hand weapon style characters just don't have very much in the way of growth. (Well, TWF does, but at a highly reduced rate) And then there's the fact that a fighter who wants to do anything else but deal damage is not going to be very useful at all.

Having said that, I like this class. It's a good interpretation of a type of fighter, but I do not think this class is capable of replacing the entirety of the fighter's function.

seeing as we're talking about battle master vs. warlord path

warlord: war leader, directing people is what he does best
battlemaster: the weapon master, the guy with all the tricks of the trade, the one who is unstoppable maelstorm by himself, but doesn't necessarily play well with others.

One idea I have is that all the auras/powers you're giving him, depending upon if you're a warlord or a battlemaster, will apply the bonuses either to yourself or your teammates.

If you choose battlemaster, the bonuses just aren't nearly as good but you can confer them to anyone who wants to listen to you. The battlemaster, on the other hand, gets a better bonus but can only apply to himself.

If you choose warlord, certain actions such as Aid Other might become a lot more useful and all that but it's all contingent on the instructions the warlord can provide.

Sahegian
2007-05-22, 03:54 PM
I like the class and I think the ideas are very well thought out as are all of your works, but I tend to agree that the flavor doesn't fit my idea of the fighter class. Call it Warlord and give it a few more auras that negatively impact your enemies and I'm sold:smallbiggrin:

Nice work.

Matthew
2007-05-24, 08:16 PM
Heh, it's always the way with Fighter fixes. People want them to be generic, but specification is the key to making them better. I have to agree, though, Fighters should be generic (but that's my feeling about all Base Classes - Bonus Feats and Feat Lists for all!)

Serenity
2007-05-26, 09:11 AM
I'm all for more specification for Fighters, but I don't particularly like this specification. I imagine it would be a real headache for DMs and many players alike keeping track of the various followers. I know, it's basically a specific version of Leadership, but I've never liked that feat much myself. At any rate, I just think it's a poor idea to make a primary base class based off of NPCs. Battle starts stretching longer, other players get irritated that one player gets to act so often--and not even necessarily accomplishing that much. As I understand it, the fighter's problem has always been maneuverability, and finding effective ways to deal with monsters like dragons and balors that they can't get to. This fix doesn't really address that. What it does provide are followers--lower level fighters deprived of their primary class ability.

Blue_C.
2008-10-03, 02:54 PM
My first thought when reading this class was "This is Roy." I have no idea if that's what you were aiming for, but I think you managed to hit it anyways. Wing it, at least. So kudos on that.

Now, on to the arguing.


I know your argument is that Swordsage and Warblade represent martial prowess, but I see no reason why fighter shouldn't either.

I hate to single out just you, because there are several that are making similar arguments, but you have summed it up best. The reason she isn't designing against that need is because, with the Tome of Battle classes available, there is no need to cover the same ground. Basically, Fax's "How-it-should-be" for that archetype currently used by the fighter class are the classes published in Tome of Battle.

Call it a fighter if it makes you feel better. Does the name really make that big of difference to you?


Basically, what about the lone warrior dedicating to mastering the art of the long spear??? That leaves very little room for followers or auras, why should someone like that care? You must admit, that that is a perfectly acceptable, and somewhat popular use of the fighter class.

You must admit, you're talking about a martial artist. A (3.0/.5) monk, with the feat out of Eberron that lets you use Long spears as monk weapons, is a closer interpretation to that vision than a (3.0/.5) fighter, IMO. Just for example, such a monk character would be able to make more attacks per round with a long spear than any other user of the long spear living. In his hands, its a offensive and defensive weapons (what, you thought the monk AC bonus was a product of clean living?), negating the need for cumbersome armor. He needs no other tool or item; he can enter a battlefield of goblins naked and still be an effective combatant if he has a long spear with him.

Compared to that, fighters get a grand total of +8 to attack rolls and +2 to damage. And they have to do it behind their upended bathtub they call armor.

wadledo
2008-10-03, 03:02 PM
http://www.game-warden.com/starfox/Non_SF_related_stuff/JS47/Thread_Necromancy.jpg

afroakuma
2008-10-04, 02:01 PM
This is worth it for Combat Prowess alone.