Is there any solution to this problem?

[Dr TPK]

I gave my players a challenge in our previous session, and it proved to be impossible. I'd like to know if it really was impossible.

The PCs:
Human warmage 7 NG
Human battle sorcerer 9/fighter 1 N
Human ranger 7/the bahamut "chosen" PrC 2 LG

The PCs were wandering in the middle of nowhere, faaaar from civilization. They encountered a very small "Aztec" tribe in a jungle, and they wanted the PCs to try to pull a magical adamantine greatsword from a boulder. The tribe and the PCs didn't have any common language so everything was done with hand signals etc. The Aztec spoke "Olman", an obscure language that no one knew back in the world, and the PCs spoke Draconic and Common. No mutual intelligibility.

The greatsword was intelligent, able to "communicate" via empathy and Neutral Good. The warmage lifted it and the greataxe signaled its approval. No one in the tribe had been able to lift the greataxe for centuries, mostly because almost no one had ever been good AND brave enough to try it.

Now the challenge: the tribe waved that the greataxe should be put back into boulder. Since the PCs couldn't communicate with the tribe, they returned it. If the PCs had been able to capitalize on their hero status (lifting the greataxe was pretty epic to the tribesmen), they could've taken the greataxe with them or trade it.

What would you have done?

[Red Fel]

Now the challenge: the tribe waved that the greataxe should be put back into boulder. Since the PCs couldn't communicate with the tribe, they returned it. If the PCs had been able to capitalize on their hero status (lifting the greataxe was pretty epic to the tribesmen), they could've taken the greataxe with them or trade it.

What would you have done?

So, wait.

The party comes to the tribe with whom they can't communicate. They're presented with a Good, intelligent "sword in the stone," which approves of them and lets them draw it. The tribe asks for them to return the weapon that approved of them because of their Goodness, so in an act of Goodness they return it.

And you're saying... They were supposed to keep or trade it?

They're Good. That's the reason the weapon approved of them. (Also, pick axe or sword, get off the fence, we're at war.) Good people have an annoying tendency to Do the Right Thing. Here, a peaceful group of tribesmen asked them to return their sacred artifact, and they did. This entire scenario reads like a test of character, and it sounds like they passed it. I mean, look at the elements. You meet a group of savage tribesmen. Do you engage in combat or diplomacy? Diplomacy. They don't speak your language, but beckon to you. Do you follow or depart? Follow. They take you to a weapon lodged in a stone, and gesture to draw it. Do you draw it or leave? Draw it. The weapon fills you with a sense of goodness, pleased with your noble heart. The people look to you, asking for it back. Do you return it or keep it?
If you chose "keep it" on that last one, it breaks the mood. You kind of have to choose "return it." It's the only answer that follows logically.

I would have done what they did, and given it back. It feels like that's what they were supposed to do. It's the answer that follows in sequence.

[Diarmuid]

I dont really understand what the "problem" is.

Is the problem that you wanted the players to keep the item?

[Callin]

Reward them with the tribe taking them to another holy location that has wealth in there and they get 1 choice of item. (Basically let them pick an item and you give it to them of appropriate WBL) Or give them Bonus XP. Reward your players for making a tough Non-Murderhobo choice and staying in character and influencing the world.

[ComaVision]

As a NG character with no way to communicate? The same as your group.

With an Evil-er alignment? Killed them all.

[Dr TPK]

I dont really understand what the "problem" is.

Is the problem that you wanted the players to keep the item?

Yes. I wanted them to keep it, but only through some ingenious move.

[Denver]

Yes. I wanted them to keep it, but only through some ingenious move.

The scenario did not seem to call for any kind of trickery or ingenious manoeuvre, so it might not have been apparent to your party that they needed to use their wits to get the item. From your description, it didn't seem like the party had a reasonable expectation to receive the sword. But, it was a good introduction to a powerful sword that the party may yet want or receive.


What would you have done?

Assuming I were playing a "good" character, and in a "good" party, I imagine my Player Character's actions would not have differed much from what your party did.

--

But, look at the bright side of the Player Character's not simply taking the sword on the first encounter: you now have a functional plot hook for some Chaotic Good NPC to steal it, thus triggering a chase to regain the sword. The reward for saving the village's ancestral sword-in-the-stone? The sword, out of the stone.

[EisenKreutzer]

So, if you wanted them to keep it why did the tribesmen ask for it back?

[Keltest]

So, if you wanted them to keep it why did the tribesmen ask for it back?

I would like to know this as well. What do the PCs know about this sword? Why would they value keeping it over not antagonizing the tribesmen?

[Troacctid]

In the near future, have them face a demon who has a ton of spell resistance, energy resistance, and DR. (Something like SR 25, energy resistance 20, and DR 15/good--not unbeatable, but pretty formidable.) Using the holy weapon against him will break his defenses. (This should be a highly visible effect: a glowing nimbus of dark energy that visibly absorbs any attacks directed at him, and dissipates when the sword strikes him. You want the players to understand what's going on.) The demon attacks the village, and the villagers call on the heroes to take up the sword and defeat him. When they do, if they try to return the sword to the stone, the stone shatters, signifying that its purpose has ended and the champion has been found. The hero is allowed to keep the sword, so long as he fulfills its purpose: to combat evil.

[dascarletm]

I mean, there would have been more room for the players to act in a more open sense had you not had the tribesmen ask for the swordaxe back. The players could have played up the "I'm the chosen one!" thing or decided to return their sword to them, or give the sword to the tribesmen... I'm just curious why the tribesmen asked them to pull the sword then immediately ask for it back! Do you want me to take it or not?

I think if I was a goodish character I'd be a little confused/annoyed at why they asked me to pick it up in the first place. It would make sense if they wanted me to remove it then give it to them... Or perhaps they use it as a way to detect evil, or non-good?

[Honest Tiefling]

Are...Are you complaining that your players played a good aligned character that respected the culture and wishes of others to the best of their ability? That they didn't utilize deception and murder to get a fancy new toy, and instead, played their alignment!?

Where do you live? I am totes not asking so that I may kidnap your players...

[jiriku]

As a player, I'm not even sure how this was a challenge, let alone one that was impossible. By D&D definitions it wasn't even an encounter. There was no enemy, obstacle, or challenge that required rolling the dice. At best, you engineered a situation in which the PCs were supposed to guess that you didn't want them to do what the friendly NPCs (run by you) were asking them to do. At worst, you tried to pre-select their reaction to a moral/ethical situation by deciding in advance what they were "supposed" to do -- robbing the players of agency. If I was your player I'd have been waiting for the real adventure to start and wondering why we were spending all this time removing and replacing swords/axes for random groups of strangers.

Edit: After some though, I think the problem here is that you had an implied goal. "The players should want to keep the obviously magical weapon," you thought to yourself. "The challenge will be how to convince the tribe to let them keep it." The problem was that the players never adopted that goal as their own. Perhaps they're not terribly interested in stealing magic weapons from friendly strangers. Perhaps they judged that another goal, "make nice with the friendly natives," was more compelling and interesting to pursue.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I think if I was a goodish character I'd be a little confused/annoyed at why they asked me to pick it up in the first place. It would make sense if they wanted me to remove it then give it to them... Or perhaps they use it as a way to detect evil, or non-good?

It makes sense that it exists as a super easy way to detect evil and isn't blocked by nondetection or mind blank.

[Selion]

Is the weapon necessary to the plot?
Now the party knows of its existence, if it will be needed in future, the party will come back to the tribe to borrow it for some time (maybe the tribe will not be happy of losing their sacred relic and the party will be forced use some ingenious move to obtain the weapon).
Figure just some way to make the party aware that they need badly that weapon.

[Theodred theOld]

It seems like you said that none of the tribesmen had pulled the swordaxe because none of them were good. This thread keeps referring to them as "friendly natives". Perhaps I'm just overthinking this but maybe they aren't friendly.

[jiriku]

Some were brave, but were not good. Others were good, but were not brave. None were both brave and good. In the words of Robert Frost,

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

[Dr TPK]

I would like to know this as well. What do the PCs know about this sword? Why would they value keeping it over not antagonizing the tribesmen?

The idea was to give them a challenge.
They know nothing about the greataxe.
The weapon was obviously very powerful, and clearly more powerful than any of their current weapons. Having it would've meant hell for the bad guys.

[PersonMan]

The problem is, they don't really have a motive to acquire it that outweighs them, you know, being Good. In the same vein that they won't go rummaging through the sacred tomb of a paladin to get the Holy Avenger supposedly buried with them, they won't just say 'cultural artifact? nah, it's a great axe, it's mine'.

[MyrPsychologist]

The idea was to give them a challenge.
They know nothing about the greataxe.
The weapon was obviously very powerful, and clearly more powerful than any of their current weapons. Having it would've meant hell for the bad guys.

But the power wasn't demonstrated. You should have provided an opportunity to give the party an incentive to actually want the item. Maybe when it was communicating telepathically it could have revealed information or how it has a very specific ability that will help them against whatever the evil is that they're going to face.

But personally. If this were my party and they did something like this. I would have the village elder or shaman or whatever figure of importance provide them with a map to find a suitable and powerful replacement item as a reward for passing the test of character.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You're asking the wrong question. There's no problem here to solve, not in the sense that the players messed anything up anyway.

The question is, "what do I do now that they didn't do what I (foolishly) expected them to do?"

The easy answer is to give them an item that will allow them to speak to the tribes folk, at least temporarily, then simply have them talk it out. Alternately, put them in a situation where they -need- the weapon, though that may feel a bit forced. Finally, write it off. Just scrap the axe and place an equally powerful weapon ahead of the party and say that it and the axe are a pair and -don't- have the tribe ask to keep it.

[Mrs Kat]

Edit: After some though, I think the problem here is that you had an implied goal. "The players should want to keep the obviously magical weapon," you thought to yourself. "The challenge will be how to convince the tribe to let them keep it." The problem was that the players never adopted that goal as their own. Perhaps they're not terribly interested in stealing magic weapons from friendly strangers. Perhaps they judged that another goal, "make nice with the friendly natives," was more compelling and interesting to pursue.

You could probably swing a plotline where having the locals as allies saves the day. Even if you can't talk, the tribesmen probably have art. Maybe there's a painting of the swordaxe slaying a demon like the one you've planned in one of their holy sites. Or maybe the tribesmen will attempt to communicate using pictograms?

[Telonius]

Okay, you're in kind of a bind, but the solution seems pretty easy: by returning it, the PCs have passed one of the axe's tests. It wants to be wielded by someone who would do the unselfish thing (returning something that's borrowed) even if keeping it would have given them a lot of power.

So, maybe have the axe take direct action. Start using whatever powers it has, to indicate (both to the tribe and to the players) that it should go with them.