How does an all-psionic campaign alter the undelrying assumptions of the game?

[EisenKreutzer]

I am in the process of fleshing out an idea I have for a Pathfinder campaign setting where the only available magic is psionics.

Now, this concept has pretty far reaching consequences. It alters the whole dynamic of adventuring (due to limitd access to healing snd resurrection), but it slso alters some of the underlying assumptions that underpin most traditional D&D/Pathfinder campaigns.

So, if you eliminate arcane and divine magic and only use psionics, how does this impact the campaign setting in your opinion?

Does the economy change? Life expectancy? The legal system? Social structure?

Basically, let's brainstorm some ideas about how a society with only access to psionics might look like.

[Sqmach]

One thing to consider is whether or not your setting has gods and whether or not the people know about them. Psionics function perfectly fine without deities, but that doesn't mean they can't exist. However, without them giving people power in the form of divine magic, how do they make their presence known and what makes people actually want to believe in them and revere them?

[EisenKreutzer]

One thing to consider is whether or not your setting has gods and whether or not the people know about them. Psionics function perfectly fine without deities, but that doesn't mean they can't exist. However, without them giving people power in the form of divine magic, how do they make their presence known and what makes people actually want to believe in them and revere them?

This particular setting does not have gods.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411985-Help-me-nail-down-my-psionic-setting) is a link to a brief description of the world I am building.

I definitely see what you mean, though. Since dieties and pantheons are a huge part of what we expect from a D&D-style fantasy world, it is important to keep this in mind when building a campaign setting without divine magic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Speaking from a 3.5 perspective.

Not much changes in the overall. There exist psionic options to do -most- of the things done with magic and of the things that can't be done, most were a bit problematic anyway.

Healing is a tad trickier but can still be done. An egoist manifesting body adjustment followed by empathic transfer, or vice versa if he's at full health, can generate as much healing as he has PP to generate. Granted that's not doable before level 5 but it's there. Vigor and share pain can go a long ways toward mitigation. Finally, there's good old fahioned psionic tattoos for body adjustment.

Disease is a pain. Unfortunately just about all you can do is use the heal skill and ride it out.

Thoses are the only really noteworthy changes though.

[Psyren]

The legal system?

This one changes a lot - you can't bind and gag a psion and stop them from casting. Antimagic cells/shackles, Catapsi fields and Psionic Restraints would be mandatory in most big cities.

But with that headache for law enforcement comes a lot of boons too. Getting away with murder when detectives can use Object Reading on the murder weapon, Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions on the scene of the crime, Mind Probe on suspects, Divination to notice clues, Hypercognition to piece the whole thing together and Metafaculty to find the culprit's hiding place is nearly impossible. Seekers for truth are also not beholden to deific politics - you are basically running a query on the reality database, rather than depending on a grumpy solar to tell you what you need to know.

[Sqmach]

This particular setting does not have gods.

Well, your setting lacks traditional gods, but I'd say a sentient psionic world which is connected to everyone and is the source of their powers is pretty close to a god, even if its not actually divine. It would be odd if there weren't at least some people that worshiped Kerbera itself, but your world so your decision there.

What classes are you allowing? Obviously anything with casting doesn't work anymore, but I could see the spell-less ranger and paladin variants still being viable. Barbarians interest me here just because of how their rage would interact with the whole global mind aspect. If you are allowing non-psionic classes, I'd assume everyone has wild talent for free just so they have a psionic aspect.

[Thealtruistorc]

How many people have psionic abilities in this world? Is it common, or reserved for a special caste with manifesting ability?

In terms of precedents for this, I can think of but one: Katsuhiro Otomo's Akira. Look to that for examples of how the style of psionics could work in this world and the rest can probably just come naturally.

[EisenKreutzer]

Well, your setting lacks traditional gods, but I'd say a sentient psionic world which is connected to everyone and is the source of their powers is pretty close to a god, even if its not actually divine. It would be odd if there weren't at least some people that worshiped Kerbera itself, but your world so your decision there.

What classes are you allowing? Obviously anything with casting doesn't work anymore, but I could see the spell-less ranger and paladin variants still being viable. Barbarians interest me here just because of how their rage would interact with the whole global mind aspect. If you are allowing non-psionic classes, I'd assume everyone has wild talent for free just so they have a psionic aspect.

That is actually something I have considered a lot. Kerebra holds a very important role in peoples lives. It is always there, present as a sort of backgrund hum in peoples minds.
I envision religion on Kerebra as something resembling buddhism. People aknowldge that there is a cycle of death and rebirth, and that all souls come from the Worldmind and return to it to be washed and birthed anew. So yeah, definitely a divine role even thou Kerebra itself is not a god.

I had planned on only allowing psionic classes, atleast for the first campaign or story arc, in part because I would want the players to be Purpl Knights, but also because it will be my first time GMing psionics and I want as much training in the system as possible.
That said, spell-less Rangers and Barbarians and all the other martials definitely have a place in Kerebra. Having everyone start with Wild Talent is actually a solid idea, as it fits well with the idea that everyone on Kerebra have psionic potential, but not everyone learns to harness it.

[EisenKreutzer]

How many people have psionic abilities in this world? Is it common, or reserved for a special caste with manifesting ability?

In terms of precedents for this, I can think of but one: Katsuhiro Otomo's Akira. Look to that for examples of how the style of psionics could work in this world and the rest can probably just come naturally.

About the same as a traditional setting and magic users. It's rare, but common enough that everyone knows about them.

The Akira reference is actually really cool! A very good way of visualizing it.

[EisenKreutzer]

This one changes a lot - you can't bind and gag a psion and stop them from casting. Antimagic cells/shackles, Catapsi fields and Psionic Restraints would be mandatory in most big cities.

But with that headache for law enforcement comes a lot of boons too. Getting away with murder when detectives can use Object Reading on the murder weapon, Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions on the scene of the crime, Mind Probe on suspects, Divination to notice clues, Hypercognition to piece the whole thing together and Metafaculty to find the culprit's hiding place is nearly impossible. Seekers for truth are also not beholden to deific politics - you are basically running a query on the reality database, rather than depending on a grumpy solar to tell you what you need to know.

I hadn't really considered how difficult it would be to keep a manifester from using his powers. Thats an excellent point, and something to keep in mind.

In fact, this post is pure gold. I will definitely keep this thread handy as I continue worldbuilding!

[Sqmach]

Another thing for keeping psions locked down which might be easier to accomplish depending on what is available in the setting: sedation. You need to be conscious to manifest a power, so keeping someone knocked out with drugs would work as a temporary solution. Obviously easier with access to modern medicine, but some herbal solutions would probably also be possible. I'd imagine it would be similarly possible to keep someone's mind clouded enough to prevent them using powers, though that would probably still allow a concentration check that some might overcome with enough time.

[AmberVael]

That is actually something I have considered a lot. Kerebra holds a very important role in peoples lives. It is always there, present as a sort of backgrund hum in peoples minds.
I envision religion on Kerebra as something resembling buddhism. People aknowldge that there is a cycle of death and rebirth, and that all souls come from the Worldmind and return to it to be washed and birthed anew. So yeah, definitely a divine role even thou Kerebra itself is not a god..

It sounds like Pantheism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism) could really be a thing.


Anyway, in your standard D&D campaign you hear jokes about wall of salt and wall of iron and wall of stone impacting the economy in various ways. I'd guess the counterpart to this in a psionic setting is quintessence. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/q/quintessence) There's no real cost to making it (shapers have every reason to just blow extra power points on it whenever they can), it apparently doesn't degrade or evaporate unless you mess with it somehow, and it has all kinds of weird uses.

On the subject of law enforcement, quintessence is a good one. Want to keep someone from escaping or something, just shove them in a vat of quintessence. They're not going anywhere after that, and its quite economical to jail them when they're in permanent stasis. Imagine a prison consisting of thick vats of quintessence- totally scary, incredibly effective.

Quintessence is a good way to put a damper on nearby psionics. Its no antimagic field, but if you make weird quintessence lanterns or something and hang them around, people will be a lot less likely to start something. Quintessence is also good for storing food for long periods, or can be used in emergency situations to keep someone stable until they can get medical attention. In fact, Quintessence is basically perfected cryogenics. You know how people store themselves even now hoping to eventually get immortality or their aging reversed or something? All the more possible if quintessence is abundant. It also means you can do weird cryogenics based travel for long journeys if you want that.

In short, Quintessence. This could be a game changer if its common enough.

[TheMiningDwarf]

Another thing for keeping psions locked down which might be easier to accomplish depending on what is available in the setting: sedation. You need to be conscious to manifest a power, so keeping someone knocked out with drugs would work as a temporary solution. Obviously easier with access to modern medicine, but some herbal solutions would probably also be possible. I'd imagine it would be similarly possible to keep someone's mind clouded enough to prevent them using powers, though that would probably still allow a concentration check that some might overcome with enough time.

Or ya know if drugs are hard to come by a low-level manifester could be powered down with little more than a lot of loud noises to force concentration checks.

[Flickerdart]

So, if you eliminate arcane and divine magic and only use psionics, how does this impact the campaign setting in your opinion?

Does the economy change? Life expectancy? The legal system? Social structure?
Your typical D&D setting doesn't really take any of these into account even with magic, but here are a few thoughts:

Mundane types will be rarer - psionics is not so good at buffing other people, so they will all have died.
Churches aren't a huge thing. There are still gods (probably psionic gods) but they don't have clerics who heal and tend to the people on their behalf (I mean, I guess divine minds...but they're crap and nobody cares). Instead, people are super into inner focus as a means of improving their lives. Think meditation, not prayer.
Crystals. Everywhere.
Because dabbling in psionics is only a Hidden Talent feat away, many communities will have at least one manifester.
Autohypnosis becomes a skill that people remember exists.

[atemu1234]

Or ya know if drugs are hard to come by a low-level manifester could be powered down with little more than a lot of loud noises to force concentration checks.

All I could think of is Harrison Bergeron (http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html)

[Greenish]

There's no limit on how much stuff you can memorize with Autohypnosis. You could have someone store an entire library, then be preserved in a vat quintessence as a back-up copy.

[atemu1234]

There's no limit on how much stuff you can memorize with Autohypnosis. You could have someone store an entire library, then be preserved in a vat quintessence as a back-up copy.

… this sounds increasingly dystopic.

[NomGarret]

I am in the process of fleshing out an idea I have for a Pathfinder campaign setting where the only available magic is psionics.

Now, this concept has pretty far reaching consequences. It alters the whole dynamic of adventuring (due to limitd access to healing snd resurrection), but it slso alters some of the underlying assumptions that underpin most traditional D&D/Pathfinder campaigns.

So, if you eliminate arcane and divine magic and only use psionics, how does this impact the campaign setting in your opinion?

Does the economy change? Life expectancy? The legal system? Social structure?

Basically, let's brainstorm some ideas about how a society with only access to psionics might look like.

With the Vitalist available, it's not all that much less healing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

… this sounds increasingly dystopic.

Not if the librarian is a volunteer and/or the primary half of a character under the effect of the fission power.

Though to be fair, psionics major setting in D&D was a post apocalyptic one; dark sun.

[daremetoidareyo]

This one changes a lot - you can't bind and gag a psion and stop them from casting. Antimagic cells/shackles, Catapsi fields and Psionic Restraints would be mandatory in most big cities.

But with that headache for law enforcement comes a lot of boons too. Getting away with murder when detectives can use Object Reading on the murder weapon, Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions on the scene of the crime, Mind Probe on suspects, Divination to notice clues, Hypercognition to piece the whole thing together and Metafaculty to find the culprit's hiding place is nearly impossible. Seekers for truth are also not beholden to deific politics - you are basically running a query on the reality database, rather than depending on a grumpy solar to tell you what you need to know.

You would have enclaves of rebels and anarchists who would develop hacks. Murder in catapsi fields. Mental "invisibility" would be developed as needed for lucrative yet outlawed trades and enterprises.

[DrMartin]

(This also from a 3.5 perspective, as I am still in the process of making friends with psionics in PF)

One thing psionics cannot do very well is create illusions - you can baffle one creature's mind and have that one creature see something that is not there (false.sensory input or cloud mind), but you cannot create an illusionary wall or illusionary terrain or any other "traditional" illusion that any passer-by could perceive.

You should decide if bend reality and reality revision are allowed to replicate spells. If they do, they are the only way to get rid of curses, as far as I know.

Are there other planes, and does magic function as usual there? Psionics get early access to plane exploration powers (astral caravan transfers you to the astral plane as soon as level 5), so can you find the usual astral-plane dwellers while being there, and do they have access to their magic?

Psionics have no cantrips, so while every single spellcaster can be assumed to have detect magic, not every psion will use one of his 5 first level powers on it (this does not apply to pathfinder), and you can be 99% sure that no wilder will have it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Mass cloud mind is a thing and it exists in the form of an armor enhancement that effects all targets in range rather than only the ones that the manifester is aware of and can target.

Gotta give you the terrain illusions point though. Of course, BFC in general is kind of a pain. There aren't many options, though those are decent.

Bend reality and reality revision are pretty explicit in their inability to mimic spells, I'm afraid.

Psionics is just plain not as versatile as magic. That said, it does more than enough for a perfectly viable, if somewhat more direct game and it does do a handful of things magic doesn't.

[Fouredged Sword]

With the Vitalist available, it's not all that much less healing.

I ran into the odd problem that Vitalist's have a very hard time removing the blind condition. Just FYI. It was jarring when it came up in the game I played.

[JusticeZero]

I've done it. It changes very little except for changing up the builds.

[Psyren]

You would have enclaves of rebels and anarchists who would develop hacks. Murder in catapsi fields. Mental "invisibility" would be developed as needed for lucrative yet outlawed trades and enterprises.

Without epic it's simply not possible; given enough time and power, Clairsentience can uncover anything. The only hope on the perpetrator's part is that the investigators are weak, or asking the wrong questions.

And if that sounds ripe for dystopia, that's because it is - psionics lends itself to that theme quite well.

[TheIronGolem]

If quintessence is easy to come by, preserving bodies with it might become the norm, replacing burial as most cultures do. Above-ground tombs would be much more common, and might even displace graveyards altogether. This has some potentially far-reaching effects on how a culture views death (and undeath, if that's a thing in your setting).

[DrMartin]

Mass cloud mind is a thing and it exists in the form of an armor enhancement that effects all targets in range rather than only the ones that the manifester is aware of and can target.


True, but there´s a save on activation, something that invisibility does not have. Also, it´s a 6th Level power. These two things make invisibility drastically less effective and less common than in a world with "normal" Magic- and invisibility is one of the most common magic effects out there.



Bend reality and reality revision are pretty explicit in their inability to mimic spells, I'm afraid.



you´re right :smalleek::smallredface: I always thought that psionic-magic transparency would apply to these things as well, apparently we´ve been using a(nother) house rule for years. Well, you always learn something new :smallbiggrin:



Psionics is just plain not as versatile as magic. That said, it does more than enough for a perfectly viable, if somewhat more direct game and it does do a handful of things magic doesn't.

totally agree on this

[Psyren]

Note that you can get any spell as a psionic power anyway. Just have a legendary Epic Erudite in your setting who took the time to Chirurgery various spells as psionic powers and pass them down through the generations to powerful Psions and Ardents. In a nutshell it's a cosmic/metaphysical form of Keep Circulating the Tapes. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KeepCirculatingTheTapes)

[Nifft]

Are Psi Artificers available? They're one way to explain how all the non-psionic magical items which make Use Psi Device so useful.

You could also add Invocation users (Warlocks & Dragonfire Adepts) -- a high-level Warlock can create arbitrary magic items, and they're a great excuse for having legions of skeletons & other such undead around. They're not psionic, but they're also not Arcane or Divine spellcasters.

Finally, what about magical non-spellcasters like Binders and Incarnum users?

[Rubik]

Finally, what about magical non-spellcasters like Binders and Incarnum users?Incarnum should definitely exist, because it segues incredibly well with psionics. ToB should also be a thing, with RKV and JPM being transliterated into psionics instead of magic.

[Psyren]

For Binders, there are psionic vestiges as well, which could lead to discovery of the others. Pact Magic would probably be seen as crude and barbaric rather than outright dangerous in a psionic society though.

Binding would be an interesting way for those folks not born with psionic potential to access some measure of power, since it's so easy to learn.