Saving throws

[Spacehamster]

Hey playground.

Just curious which uncommon save(STR, INT, CHA) that is the most useful to have,
Not played enough or dm'd enuf this edition to have a valid opinion so would be nice
To see what ppl that have played it more thinks.

[Ruslan]

All 3 are niche, but STR has a bit larger niche than the others. An STR save generally prevents you from being grabbed or swallowed, which can happen quite a lot when you're facing large monsters.

[BoutsofInsanity]

I like the alternate saving throws. I can't tell you statistically which ones are better picked. I can tell you as a homebrewer of monsters what I use them for.

Basically, the initial save is always a primary save. CON, DEX and WIS. But the secondary saves for me, are for the save after the fail.

For example: Reflex to avoid the rope trap that tighten on the players. Strength to break free.

Or Wisdom to avoid the initial illusion. Intelligence to recognize it's fake and break free once already trapped.

[TopCheese]

Hey playground.

Just curious which uncommon save(STR, INT, CHA) that is the most useful to have,
Not played enough or dm'd enuf this edition to have a valid opinion so would be nice
To see what ppl that have played it more thinks.

Str is probably used the most, cha has the more annoying effects, and Int will straight up mess you up but is probably the rarest*.

*no scientific proof, just seems that way.

[Strill]

CHA and INT are both extremely rare, but have dangerous effects. STR is very common, but usually only pushes you back, or knocks you prone. I'd favor STR over the other two.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Str is probably used the most, cha has the more annoying effects, and Int will straight up mess you up but is probably the rarest*.

*no scientific proof, just seems that way.

I'm inclined to agree.

CHA, for example, applies to forced extra-planar travel spells such as Banishment.

INT saves = Intellect Devourers, and including those in a campaign is an all-around dubious choice anyway.

[Cybren]

INT saves = Intellect Devourers, and including those in a campaign is an all-around dubious choice anyway.
including them haphazardly and ruthlessly with no warning or lead up or knowledge, yeah. But so is just going "Lol there's a sphere of annihilation in the door it was just an illusion sorry u r all dead"

[TopCheese]

Not just Int-Eaters but spells such as Phantasmal Force and potential psionics abilities. They are down right mean because they can really mess up your player (if role-playing half way decently).

Actually now that I think about it, why the hell Phantasmal Killer a Wis save?

[JakOfAllTirades]

including them haphazardly and ruthlessly with no warning or lead up or knowledge, yeah. But so is just going "Lol there's a sphere of annihilation in the door it was just an illusion sorry u r all dead"

I dunno, even with a lead-in, a hint, or heavy foreshadowing, I think I'd be like, "Intellect Devourers? That's it, we're outta here! Gotta be an easier way to save the kingdom/rescue the princess/storm the castle/whatever! Next heroic quest, please."

Nope nope nope nope nope!!!! :tongue:


Edited to add an extra Nope!

[SharkForce]

Actually now that I think about it, why the hell Phantasmal Killer a Wis save?

i figure someone decided that it didn't suck enough, so they made sure that the one redeeming feature it could have had (requiring one of the less common saves) is a feature that it didn't have.

(slightly more seriously: i think they decided it was more fear effect than illusion effect. with the side effect that phantasmal killer is a really crappy spell that you should almost never use. though at least now they don't have to fail 2 saves before it does anything at all, so hey, it's less crappy than it was in the first printing).

[Vogonjeltz]

Hey playground.

Just curious which uncommon save(STR, INT, CHA) that is the most useful to have,
Not played enough or dm'd enuf this edition to have a valid opinion so would be nice
To see what ppl that have played it more thinks.

If I recall correctly, there are approximately 9 str save spells, 7 Cha, and 3 Int in the PHB. So, str->Cha->int

[Strill]

If I recall correctly, there are approximately 9 str save spells, 7 Cha, and 3 Int in the PHB. So, str->Cha->int

STR isn't good because of save spells. It's good because of the huge amount of monster STR save abilities. There's about 2 STR saves for every 3 WIS saves.

[SharkForce]

STR isn't good because of save spells. It's good because of the huge amount of monster STR save abilities. There's about 2 STR saves for every WIS save.

however, as noted, there's a big difference in what those saves do.

if you fail a strength save, you're probably grappled, prone, or restrained. by all means, an unpleasant situation, but comparatively speaking, not bad.

if you fail a charisma save, you might be banished or hit by bane. or planar bound, if you are of a compatible creature type.

if you fail an int save, you're a drooling idiot, trapped in a maze until you can beat a DC 20 int check (not save), or forced to interact with a reality of someone else's choosing (actions and a successful int check, again not save, to escape), or something like that.

so yeah, strength saves are more common, but charisma and int are useful because of the severity of the effects that happen when you fail them.

which is best? well, that all depends on what you're up against. strength is most frequently the best for any given fight, but as noted above, when you fail one of the other two saves it can be pretty nasty.

[Kryx]

Strength:
Disarming Attack (Fighter), Pushing Attack (Fighter), Trip Attack (Fighter), OH Push (OH), Nature’s Wrath (or dex) (Oath of the Ancients), Arms of Hadar, Control Winds (downdraft), Dust Devil, Earthbind, Ensnaring Strike, Entangle, Gust, Gust of Wind, Maelstrom, Maximilian’s Earthen Grasp, Storm Sphere, Thunderous Smite, Transmute Rock, Tsunami, Watery Sphere, Whirlwind (restrained), Wind Wall
Aboleth Lair Action pools - prone
Beholder/Death Tyrant Telekinetic Ray - pushed
Vine Blight Entangling Plants - restrained
Balor Whip - pulled
Goristro Hoof - prone
Allosaurus Pounce - prone & bonus attack
Ankylosaurus Tail - prone
Triceratops Trampling Charge - prone & bonus attack
Black Dragon Lair Action pools - pulled & prone
Green Dragon Lair Action grasping roots - restrained
Brass Dragon Lair Action wind - pushed & prone
Bronze Dragon (Ancient/Adult/Young/Wyrmling) Repulsion Breath - pushed
Gold Dragon (Ancient/Adult/Young/Wyrmling) Weakening Breath - disadvantage on strength attacks, checks, and saving throws
Dragon Turtle Tail - pushed & prone
Air Elemental Whirlwind - damage & pushed & prone
Water Elemental Whelm - damage & grappled
Empyrean Trembling Strike - prone
Galeb Duhr Rolling Charge - prone
Djinni Create Whirlwind - restrained & potentially moved in the following rounds
Stone Giant Rock - prone
Gibbering Mouther Aberrant Ground - speed 0
Gibbering Mouther Bites - prone
Gorgon Trampling Charge - prone & bonus attack
Hobgoblin Warlord Shield Bash - prone
Kraken Lair Action Current - pushed
Kuo-Toa Sticky Shield - Weapon stuck to shield. Potentially grappled or lose weapon
Wereboar Charge - prone
Weretiger Pounce - prone & bonus attack
Minotaur Charge - pushed & prone
Minotaur Skeleton Charge - pushed & prone
Otyugh Tentacle Slam - damage & stunned
Tarrasque Tail - prone
Unicorn Charge - prone
Boar Charge - prone
Dire Wolf Bite - prone
Elephant Trampling Charge - prone & bonus attack
Elk Charge - prone
Giant Boar Charge - prone
Giant Crocodile Tail - prone
Giant Elk Charge - prone
Giant Goat Charge - prone
Giant Sea Horse Charge - prone
Goat Charge - prone
Lion Pounce - prone & bonus attack
Mammoth Trampling Charge - prone & bonus attack
Mastiff Bite - prone
Panther Pounce - prone & bonus attack
Rhinoceros Charge - prone
Saber-Toothed Tiger Pounce - prone & bonus attack
Tiger Pounce - prone & bonus attack
Warhorse Trampling Charge - prone & bonus attack
Winter Wolf Bite - prone
Wolf Bite - prone
Worg Bite - prone
Gladiator Shield Bash - prone

Intelligence:
Contact Other Plane, Feeblemind, Phantasmal Force, Alter Memories (School of Enchantment)
Intellect Devourer - Psychic damage and reduce creature’s int to 0
Mind Flayer Tentacles - stunned
Mind Flayer Mind Blast - Psychic damage and stunned
Variant Gray Ooze - Psychic damage

Charisma:
Charm Animals and Plants (Nature D), Command Undead (School of Necromancy), Bane, Banishment, Calm Emotions, Dispel Good and Evil (dismissal), Forcecage (tp out), Magic Circle(TP in), Magic Jar, Planar Binding, Plane Shift, Zone of Truth
Formian - Psychic damage
Umber Hulk Confusing Gaze
Variant Demilich Trap the soul
Gold Dragon Lair action banished
Ghost Possession
Sprite Heart Sight alignment check (lol who cares)

By RAW there are few Charisma/Int saves.

I think many things are inconsistent. For example gust and gust of wind are strength saves, but Investiture of Wind is somehow a Constitution save. Or all versions of proning an enemy are strength checks/saves except Open Hand Monk's prone ability. Or Psychic damage using Int, Wis, or Cha based on whatever the designer felt like at the time (Aboleth lair action uses Wisdom, Intellect Devourer uses Int, Formian uses Cha, Mind flayer uses Int, Variant Gray ooze uses Int).

I've made a list and plan to post a detailed explanation for how to adjust the handful of spells/ability for consistency.

[Joe the Rat]

Holy lists, Batman!
The main theme on Strength saves is appears to be resisting movement control - changes in position (push/pull), changes in orientation (prone), or changes in mobility (grappled, restrained). Unless the save also mitigates damage, in which case it falls back to Constitution. Usually.

Most of those aren't directly dangerous. But what they do is set you (or your friends) up for the next thing. Worg prones you, his buddies gain advantage. Trampling attacks? That bonus action attack is now at advantage. Pushed back? You're out of position for reactions (sentinel, protection style) to help your buddies. Or off a cliff. If being able to move, and being exactly where you want to be is critical to your tactics, you want Strength saves.

Intelligence has the theme of Mind stuff, and Charisma Soul stuff, but that is not consistent, nor are there enough cases to make a solid point of it. But most of these are directly debilitating (damage, death, loss of body/soul) or bypass physical factors to limit your movement (direct control, magical warding, removal from this reality). Failing one of these means you're done for a while (perhaps permanently), and requires little to no teamwork.

So what it comes down to is which is more important: Having a save that gets used semi-frequently, but mostly avoids inconveniences or breaks up a murder combo, or having a save that is used very rarely, but may mean the difference between life and being bound to a rock in a pocket dimension somewhere?

[Strill]

So what it comes down to is which is more important: Having a save that gets used semi-frequently, but mostly avoids inconveniences or breaks up a murder combo, or having a save that is used very rarely, but may mean the difference between life and being bound to a rock in a pocket dimension somewhere?In the rare case you go up against something that uses CHA/INT saves, you can use buffs to compensate. you can't do that with STR saves.

[SharkForce]

In the rare case you go up against something that uses CHA/INT saves, you can use buffs to compensate. you can't do that with STR saves.

which buffs are you going to use that work on cha/int saves but won't work on str saves, exactly?

[kaoskonfety]

Echoing others...

If you are in the thick of combat getting beat on in any front line capacity you will get significantly more mileage out of strength. In your average combat heavy game this will shine more just due to exposure.

Int and Cha are pretty much neck and neck for how common and nasty the effects are: very rare, rather nasty. In a light combat game I'd probably favour one of these because when it does come to blows these outright take you out for the count - and it sucks to miss one of the few(ish) fights in the game for the lack of a +2 to +6.

[Vogonjeltz]

STR isn't good because of save spells. It's good because of the huge amount of monster STR save abilities. There's about 2 STR saves for every 3 WIS saves.

Well, independently it is more prevalent for spells, so I think we can safely say it's good in general.


trapped in a maze until you can beat a DC 20 int check (not save)

Maze (what this appears to refer to) doesn't even allow a save in the first place.

[TopCheese]

Well, independently it is more prevalent for spells, so I think we can safely say it's good in general.



Maze (what this appears to refer to) doesn't even allow a save in the first place.

So the question is, do players in official published campaigns, attempt more saving throws versus spells or monster abilities.

I think home campaigns will vary way too much.

[Kryx]

Well, independently it is more prevalent for spells, so I think we can safely say it's good in general.
There are not more strength saves than wisdom saves for spells.
There are 22 Strength saving throw Abilities / Spells:
Disarming Attack (Fighter)
Pushing Attack (Fighter)
Trip Attack (Fighter)
OH Push (OH)
Nature’s Wrath (Oath of the Ancients)
Arms of Hadar
Control Winds (downdraft)
Dust Devil, Earthbind
Ensnaring Strike
Entangle
Gust
Gust of Wind
Maelstrom
Maximilian’s Earthen Grasp
Storm Sphere
Thunderous Smite
Transmute Rock
Tsunami
Watery Sphere
Whirlwind (restrained)
Wind Wall


There are 51 Wisdom saving throw Abilities / Spells:
Intimidating Presence (Barb)
Turn Undead (Cleric)
Read Thoughts (Cleric)
Nature’s Sanctuary (Land Druid)
Menacing Attack (Fighter)
Turn Unholy (Paladin)
Turn the Faithless (Paladin)
Abjure Enemy (Paladin)
Avenging Angel (Paladin)
Draconic Presence (Dragon Sorc)
Dark Delirium - Frightened (Archfey)
Fey Presence (Archfey)
Beguiling Defenses (Archfey)
Dark Delirium - charmed (Archfey)
Hypnotic Gaze (School of Enchantment)
Instinctive Charm (School of Enchantment)
Animal Friendship
Antipathy/Sympathy
Bestow Curse
Charm Person
Command
Compelled Duel
Compulsion
Confusion
Crown of Madness
Dominate Creature
Enthrall
Detect Thoughts
Dissonant Whispers
Eyebite
Fear
Geas
Hypnotic Pattern
Hold Creature
Imprisonment (some)
Mass Suggestion
Modify Memory
Otto’s Irresistible Dance
Phantasmal Killer
Polymorph
Sanctuary
Scrying
Spirit Guardians
Staggering Smite
Suggestion
Symbol (Discord, Hopelessness)
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter
True Polymorph
Vicious Mockery
Weird
Wrathful Smite

[Strill]

which buffs are you going to use that work on cha/int saves but won't work on str saves, exactly?

It's not that they wouldn't work on STR saves, it's that STR saves are too common to buff for.

[TopCheese]

It's not that they wouldn't work on STR saves, it's that STR saves are too common to buff for.

What are you talking about?

Bless, Resistance, and many other spells/effects give you a bonus to saving throws in general and not typically to only specific saving throws.

Sure if you play a Gnome you get advantage versus magic with mental saves but that is a racial feature and not a buff.

Bless is pretty much the defacto buff spell and it works for strength just fine...

I'm actually not sure what you are getting at, if you could explain I would appreciate it.

[Strill]

What are you talking about?

Bless, Resistance, and many other spells/effects give you a bonus to saving throws in general and not typically to only specific saving throws.

Sure if you play a Gnome you get advantage versus magic with mental saves but that is a racial feature and not a buff.

Bless is pretty much the defacto buff spell and it works for strength just fine...

I'm actually not sure what you are getting at, if you could explain I would appreciate it.

STR saves are so common that preparing for them all is impractical because there's too many STR saves and not enough resources to prepare for them all. To contrast, CHA and INT saves come from very specific, predictable sources.

[Vogonjeltz]

There are not more strength saves than wisdom saves for spells.
There are 22 Strength saving throw Abilities / Spells:
Disarming Attack (Fighter)
Pushing Attack (Fighter)
Trip Attack (Fighter)
OH Push (OH)
Nature’s Wrath (Oath of the Ancients)
Arms of Hadar
Control Winds (downdraft)
Dust Devil, Earthbind
Ensnaring Strike
Entangle
Gust
Gust of Wind
Maelstrom
Maximilian’s Earthen Grasp
Storm Sphere
Thunderous Smite
Transmute Rock
Tsunami
Watery Sphere
Whirlwind (restrained)
Wind Wall


There are 51 Wisdom saving throw Abilities / Spells:
Intimidating Presence (Barb)
Turn Undead (Cleric)
Read Thoughts (Cleric)
Nature’s Sanctuary (Land Druid)
Menacing Attack (Fighter)
Turn Unholy (Paladin)
Turn the Faithless (Paladin)
Abjure Enemy (Paladin)
Avenging Angel (Paladin)
Draconic Presence (Dragon Sorc)
Dark Delirium - Frightened (Archfey)
Fey Presence (Archfey)
Beguiling Defenses (Archfey)
Dark Delirium - charmed (Archfey)
Hypnotic Gaze (School of Enchantment)
Instinctive Charm (School of Enchantment)
Animal Friendship
Antipathy/Sympathy
Bestow Curse
Charm Person
Command
Compelled Duel
Compulsion
Confusion
Crown of Madness
Dominate Creature
Enthrall
Detect Thoughts
Dissonant Whispers
Eyebite
Fear
Geas
Hypnotic Pattern
Hold Creature
Imprisonment (some)
Mass Suggestion
Modify Memory
Otto’s Irresistible Dance
Phantasmal Killer
Polymorph
Sanctuary
Scrying
Spirit Guardians
Staggering Smite
Suggestion
Symbol (Discord, Hopelessness)
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter
True Polymorph
Vicious Mockery
Weird
Wrathful Smite


I was referring to str vs Cha vs int.

Strill brought up wisdom for some reason, but it wasn't what I was speaking too. Sorry you wasted all that time compiling the list.