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View Full Version : Still more Anti-CoDZilla Thoughts



belboz
2007-05-18, 08:57 PM
Yes, we've had a lot of these before. Here are a few more. No, this doesn't do anything for arcane casters--well, not much (see "summoning" below).

Spell Progression
This is inspired by older editions of D&D and their differing spell progressions for divine vs. arcane spell casters (given that clerics and druids have more HP and better armor):

A cleric or druid's spell progression is slowed down, so that a (revised) CoD casts spells as an (original) CoD of 2/3 his/her level, round up. Therefore, a level 20 Cleric casts 2+1 7th-level spells/day (like an original level 14 cleric). 8th and 9th level spells are the prerogative of epic clerics (22nd and 25th-level clerics, respectively). Druids are in a similar situation.

Range
Oddly, this tries to reduce cleric-zilla by making the cleric, in some sense, more powerful (and so acting as a slight counter to the above). What it really does, though, is make a cleric's allies more powerful.

The following spells have their range changed from "Personal" to "Touch":

Divine Favor
Divine Power
Entropic Shield
Righteous Might


(It used to be that a clerics best bet was to cast these on him/herself and wade into melee. Now it's a better bet to cast them on the fighter.)

Natural Spell
The feat "Natural Spell" disappears. Note that some animals (such as most primates) are capable of using somatic and material components, and others (such as ravens or parrots) are capable of using verbal components.

Awaken
An awakened animal or plant is not bound to obey requests communicated to it. Instead, it acts in the best interests of its kind, or nature in general, as it understands them. Of course, requests from a druid are generally taken quite seriously, as druids are bound to protect nature.

Summoning Spells
Actually, this one does affect arcane casters too.

Summoned intelligent creatures (3 or higher) are not generally under the direct control of the caster. A summoned creature of a caster's alignment is likely to share his/her goals (and therefore will frequently assist in battles, etc), but this need not always be the case. Powerful creatures (such as high-level Angels, Demons, or Devils) may resent being summoned for tasks they consider beneath them. In extreme cases, a summoned creature may even turn on its summoner.

Summoned creatures of animal-level intelligence (1 or 2) are generally loyal to their summoner, as an extremely loyal dog. They still, however, are not under their summoner's complete control.

Summoned mindless creatures are under a caster's direct control unless stated otherwise in the spell description.

Duke Malagigi
2007-05-18, 09:14 PM
This is acutally a good idea. Nice job beloz.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-19, 12:22 AM
This is pretty much the worst anti-CoDzilla attempt I've seen yet.

I can, and will, break a game even casting only 7th level spells instead of 9th. In fact, I can do it with 6th level spells.

DMM Persist Divine Power and DMM Persist Righteous Might. Neither one of the spells are over 7th level. Game broken.

Clerics and Druids actually don't break the game with their 8th and 9th level spells. They don't have anything crack-tastic like Time Stop or Contingency which is what wizards use to break games. Rather they use other granted abilities or find ways to beef up lower level abilities to broken status.

Removing Natural Spell is a good idea, but once a Druid has wildshaped, he's pretty much going to run over anything with melee rather than spellcasting.

The summon monster nerf you proposed is just silly. They're already some of the least powerful in the arsenal, now they're completely worthless.

I don't see any change from how Awaken normally works. Once they awaken, they're a sentient creature, same as any other.

Here's a better idea:

Remove the spells Divine Power and Righteous Might from the game. This puts a damper on CoDzilla right there by removing two of the worst offenders from their spell list.

Removing Natural Spell feat is a good idea I agree with. This limits the spellcasting ability while in a wildshape.

Restricting PrC's. Here's the real kicker. If you let in things like Planar Shepherd, you're just asking to get your game broken. Any time any PC asks for x PrC, read it carefully. Read it again. What does it do? Do you want that in your game?

Most truely 'broken' builds requires non-core material to be broken. Read the CharOp boards, find which parts are exploited the worst, and ban them.

Artemician
2007-05-19, 12:40 AM
Actually.. Clerics DO break the game with 9th level spells. Miracle anyone? Time Stop? Elemental Swarm?

As is, the biggest beef with the CoDzilla is not that he fights better than the fighter, but that he fights as well as the fighter AND has spells.

Also, i see the Summoning nerf as being a buffer against things like Gateing in Solars/Titans. However, it is true that summon spells are quite weak now. Maybe you could give Summon Monster increased range? As it is now, you're more likely to be killed by your own monster.

belboz
2007-05-19, 01:45 AM
DMM Persist Divine Power and DMM Persist Righteous Might. Neither one of the spells are over 7th level. Game broken.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. This is an an anti-core CoDzilla program. DMM has its own problems.

BTW, rods of metamagic have their own problems too, I think, for similar reasons. Broken items, that should probably be removed.


Removing Natural Spell is a good idea, but once a Druid has wildshaped, he's pretty much going to run over anything with melee rather than spellcasting.

This way, a druid has to make a choice--cast spells, or be a melee behemoth. A melee behemoth is, fundamentally, no better than a fighter. A spellcasting melee behemoth is.


The summon monster nerf you proposed is just silly. They're already some of the least powerful in the arsenal, now they're completely worthless.

Gate is one of the least powerful spells in the arsenal?


I don't see any change from how Awaken normally works. Once they awaken, they're a sentient creature, same as any other.



it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it.



Restricting PrC's. Here's the real kicker. If you let in things like Planar Shepherd, you're just asking to get your game broken. Any time any PC asks for x PrC, read it carefully. Read it again. What does it do? Do you want that in your game?

Yes. Fixing every single splatbook out there is beyond the scope of this project. It's beyond the scope of any project. Caveat DM. As people have pointed out on this board, though, core clerics and druids are already broken.


Most truely 'broken' builds requires non-core material to be broken. Read the CharOp boards, find which parts are exploited the worst, and ban them.

The worst builds certainly require non-core material, but, as has been pointed out repeatedly on the Gaming board, you can get some pretty broken stuff with core Clerics, Druids, and Wizards.


As is, the biggest beef with the CoDzilla is not that he fights better than the fighter, but that he fights as well as the fighter AND has spells.

Right. The two things that are supposed to stop that are the wildshape nerf (for Druzilla) and the extension of those personal spells to touch (for Clezilla). You don't fight as well as the fighter plus have spells if you can give the fighter your best melee buffs.


Also, i see the Summoning nerf as being a buffer against things like Gateing in Solars/Titans.
Yeah, that was the idea.


However, it is true that summon spells are quite weak now. Maybe you could give Summon Monster increased range? As it is now, you're more likely to be killed by your own monster.

Maybe I should just limit it to specific spells, such as Gate, and not include the summon monsterspells*. You won't be killed by your own gated creature if you're careful about what you gate and when you gate it. A Solar summoned to fight a demon lord isn't going to attack you, unless you're basically as evil and dangerous as a demon lord yourself.

A demon lord summoned to fight a solar, on the other hand...well, they'll attack the solar first. But unless you're quite favored of a CE deity, you might want to be out of range when their done. The danger of consorting with evil.

*On the other hand, you control the monster summoned by summon monster spells. Don't summon a Couatl if you're a lich trying to destroy the Sapphire Guard, right? But again, it's not really critical; Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally aren't overpowered spells as they are. Gate is.

Aquillion
2007-05-19, 02:24 AM
Range
Oddly, this tries to reduce cleric-zilla by making the cleric, in some sense, more powerful (and so acting as a slight counter to the above). What it really does, though, is make a cleric's allies more powerful.

The following spells have their range changed from "Personal" to "Touch":

Divine Favor
Divine Power
Entropic Shield
Righteous Might


(It used to be that a clerics best bet was to cast these on him/herself and wade into melee. Now it's a better bet to cast them on the fighter.)Except that Divine Power's chief effect is raising BAB to fighter-class. If cast on a fighter, it does (comparatively) nothing... I suppose people might use it on rogues and psywars, though. Psywars in particular... a hasted thrikreen psiwar with 20 BAB using boosted Psionic Lion's Charge on everything in sight to make a bazillion-hit full attack charges with massive damage bonuses to each hit could get nasty.


Natural Spell
The feat "Natural Spell" disappears. Note that some animals (such as most primates) are capable of using somatic and material components, and others (such as ravens or parrots) are capable of using verbal components.I was sure that there was some rule that specifically prevented people who wild shape into ravens or parrots from using that form to perform verbal components... I can't remember where I saw that, though. Maybe I'm wrong.


Summoning Spells
Actually, this one does affect arcane casters too.

Summoned intelligent creatures (3 or higher) are not generally under the direct control of the caster. A summoned creature of a caster's alignment is likely to share his/her goals (and therefore will frequently assist in battles, etc), but this need not always be the case. Powerful creatures (such as high-level Angels, Demons, or Devils) may resent being summoned for tasks they consider beneath them. In extreme cases, a summoned creature may even turn on its summoner.

Summoned creatures of animal-level intelligence (1 or 2) are generally loyal to their summoner, as an extremely loyal dog. They still, however, are not under their summoner's complete control.

Summoned mindless creatures are under a caster's direct control unless stated otherwise in the spell description.The problem with this is that you're basically taking a major field of abilities and saying "Ok, this is all under DM consent." With this rule, every time anyone casts a summon spell for anything interesting, the DM has to squint and hmm and hew and then decide whether to allow it or not (or maybe interrupt the combat for some roleplaying, which often won't be viable.) You won't see anyone focusing on summoning spells like this. I think anyone who used it would get tired fast, too.

...and what's this rule supposed to fix? Natural Spell and the rest I can see, but summoning intelligent creatures doesn't strike me as a huge problem until you get into epic magic (or Gate, which is calling instead of summoning anyway, and has its own set of rules.)

Also, with a traditional Summon Monster / Summon Nature's Ally X spell, you're getting them for one round per level. That's 30 seconds at level 10, or 60 at level 20. Hardly enough time for extended negotiations.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-19, 05:29 AM
Natural Spell
The feat "Natural Spell" disappears. Note that some animals (such as most primates) are capable of using somatic and material components, and others (such as ravens or parrots) are capable of using verbal components.

The PHB already says Parrots can't speak since it isn't a natural parrot trait it is a trained parrot trait. Druids are all about wild animals for some reason.

Captain van der Decken
2007-05-19, 05:50 AM
But.. a druid's pet can learn tricks.

belboz
2007-05-19, 11:00 PM
Except that Divine Power's chief effect is raising BAB to fighter-class. If cast on a fighter, it does (comparatively) nothing...

Well, except for that little +6 bonus to Strength. But you make a good point. Perhaps change it to +1 BaB/4 caster levels? Essentially the same effect as currently, if cast on a cleric, but also useful for fighters.


I was sure that there was some rule that specifically prevented people who wild shape into ravens or parrots from using that form to perform verbal components... I can't remember where I saw that, though. Maybe I'm wrong.

I can't find this either, but since both you and someone else remember it, perhaps it could be an explicit house rule. Doesn't really even need to be part of this, although I've got to say that it makes flavor sense to me--the only thing keeping a parrot from using its skilled tongue to do just about everything a human's can is intelligence; the same for apes and their fingers.


...and what's this rule supposed to fix? Natural Spell and the rest I can see, but summoning intelligent creatures doesn't strike me as a huge problem until you get into epic magic (or Gate, which is calling instead of summoning anyway, and has its own set of rules.)

OK, I'm officially changing that fix. It applies to Gate, not to the summon monster/summon nature's ally spells.

Aquillion
2007-05-21, 01:26 AM
I can't find this either, but since both you and someone else remember it, perhaps it could be an explicit house rule. Doesn't really even need to be part of this, although I've got to say that it makes flavor sense to me--the only thing keeping a parrot from using its skilled tongue to do just about everything a human's can is intelligence; the same for apes and their fingers.Found it. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm) it is, from the basic SRD rules on Wild Shape... parrots are specifically excluded from performing verbal components:

A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)