Going without a dedicated healer... in a 3 melee, 1 ranged group. Possible? Tips?

[Abrahadabra]

Hi, I'm in a 7th level group and I was playing a cleric, but after falling unconscious, and tragically failing his first 3 "death checks", the great Horik of the Dark Mountain has gone to Valhalla to meet his glorious ancestors. manly tears ensue

So... Our group is made of 1 fighter (18 AC), 1 barbarian (16 AC, maybe 17) and a monk (20 AC). This group screams "get a healer and keep these guys alive while they punch people to death", but really, that's so boring. Also, I dislike being a "healer", not just because it's unfun, but because as a long-time 3.5 wizard/cleric player it feels really stupid; why cure wounds when I can just prevent them from happening in the first place? But I don't know how that works in 5e, what with the concentration stuff and all. Can anyone do that? Has anyone tried it in this version?

[Strill]

There is no need for healers in 5e. Play whatever you want.

Also you're absolutely correct about preventing damage in the first place. Play a Wizard and lock down the enemies with webs, walls, and enchantments.

[Sqmach]

Everyone gets a decent amount of healing after rests now, and its not like healing potions are that expensive. Its entirely possible to function without a healer. This is made easier by not taking damage of course, and all I can really suggest for that is intelligent use of tactics, decent AC, and killing things as fast as possible.

If you were to want some minor healing, could always do Bard with word of healing as a spell for emergencies. I'd also point out you could melee as a War cleric fairly well and just have cure or healing word prepared for emergencies.

But yeah, you don't really need healing, but its all dependent on how the group plays and what your DM decides to throw at you.

[DanyBallon]

In order to make it work, do not house rule how healing work over long rest. Being able to fully heal over a long rest will be of much help for a party without a dedicated healer. As for the healing during your adventuring day, try to get as much healing potion as you can get. Those two tips should keep you alive, especially if you can prevent damage.

[MaxWilson]

Healers aren't important because of HP restoration in 5E. They're important because of things like Blue Slaads, Basilisks and Rakshasas. My players have nobody in their party who can cast Greater Restoration, and when the barbarian got cursed by a Rakshasa, they had to trade favors with a Couatl (several sessions later) to get him to stop screaming in his sleep and be able to rest. Likewise when the monk and an NPC fighter got perma-stunned by an Intellect Devourer. If not for the fact that I use character trees, so the players have backup PCs, those players would have been out of the game for several sessions.

Access to Raise Dead and Revivify are nice, too.

I hate the fluff for clerics but they are undeniably useful to have around, as are bards (whom I do not hate). If I were you I'd make a bardlock, steal Conjure Animals and Aura of Vitality, and enjoy being a blaster and a healer and a controller simultaneously.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I'm currently in a group of five: the closest we have to a healer is our Paladin. We also have a Rogue, a Blade-pact Warlock (me), and two Wizards.

We've made it to 10th level without losing anyone (although we've had a few close calls) and the lack of a dedicated healer hasn't been nearly the problem we expected it to be. In 5E, there's not much to spend loot on (we don't buy a lot of magic items) but healing potions are available and they're cheap, so we keep a lot of them on hand.

And the Paladin usually just heals himself. He takes a lot more damage than the rest of us for some reason.

[Vogonjeltz]

Healers aren't important because of HP restoration in 5E. They're important because of things like Blue Slaads, Basilisks and Rakshasas. My players have nobody in their party who can cast Greater Restoration, and when the barbarian got cursed by a Rakshasa, they had to trade favors with a Couatl (several sessions later) to get him to stop screaming in his sleep and be able to rest. Likewise when the monk and an NPC fighter got perma-stunned by an Intellect Devourer. If not for the fact that I use character trees, so the players have backup PCs, those players would have been out of the game for several sessions.

Access to Raise Dead and Revivify are nice, too.

I hate the fluff for clerics but they are undeniably useful to have around, as are bards (whom I do not hate). If I were you I'd make a bardlock, steal Conjure Animals and Aura of Vitality, and enjoy being a blaster and a healer and a controller simultaneously.

This is a good point, parties without healers are perfectly viable, but they are also very likely to find themselves on a side quest at some point in order to remove an otherwise permanent affliction (missing limbs, death, etcetera).

[Dralnu]

I'll echo what others said: healers aren't needed. Instead, pick whatever role/class you find fun.

- Bards offer the group utility, have a smattering of spells, offer increased healing during rest, can lift your favorite spells off any class list; either be more combat (valor) or spellcasty (lore)
- Druids also have powerful crowd control spells (entangle), utility (faerie fire), and healing (goodberries), also their wildshape gives them immense uility
- Paladins have the best burst damage in the game, offer huge buffs to nearby (melee) allies with their auras, can heal and cure debuffs; you can focus on being a warrior as straight Paladin or multiclass into Sorcerer for more spellcasting/gish
- Rogue (Thief) can use a healer's kit as a bonus action while still pewpewing, Assassin big burst, Arcane Trickster little bit o' spells, all good damage and scouting/skills
- Of course, Wizards can still be battlefield control: check out Treantmonk's 5e guide to Wizards (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4209951). I like the idea of Abjuration Wizard dropping shields on people while doing my thing.

You've got tons of options.

[Abrahadabra]

Problem is that after every encounter each of our characters were usually at half HP... After I cast prayer of healing. This is why I thought we needed healers. Maybe the DM can just tone it down a bit.

I'm actually thinking about making a Lore Bard now. But when my eyes hit Find Familiar and Find Steed... Well, I guess that lvl 6 is gonna be spent on cosmetics and utility. But with Song of Rest and the occasional emergency Cure Wounds I believe we're covered when it comes to healing. With Doss Lute (I can pick one uncommon item), which gives disadvantage against charm, I think Hypnotic Pattern can be pretty awesome, right? I can just tell my guys to close their eyes and voilá? From a quick ctrl+f search I know constructs, undead, oozes and a few celestials/fiends are immune to charm though :smallfrown:

[Yorrin]

I actually recommend Cleric heartily, but more from the perspective of "more than a healer." Any given Cleric can kick some butt with a weapon and/or damage spells, and/or provide a lot of non-healing support and still be a competent post-battle healer. 5e is great about that, actually, especially since you're about to hit 8th level, which is when Clerics get their damage boost from their domain.

[Atalas]

I'll echo what others said: healers aren't needed. Instead, pick whatever role/class you find fun.

- Bards offer the group utility, have a smattering of spells, offer increased healing during rest, can lift your favorite spells off any class list; either be more combat (valor) or spellcasty (lore)
- Druids also have powerful crowd control spells (entangle), utility (faerie fire), and healing (goodberries), also their wildshape gives them immense uility
- Paladins have the best burst damage in the game, offer huge buffs to nearby (melee) allies with their auras, can heal and cure debuffs; you can focus on being a warrior as straight Paladin or multiclass into Sorcerer for more spellcasting/gish
- Rogue (Thief) can use a healer's kit as a bonus action while still pewpewing, Assassin big burst, Arcane Trickster little bit o' spells, all good damage and scouting/skills
- Of course, Wizards can still be battlefield control: check out Treantmonk's 5e guide to Wizards (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4209951). I like the idea of Abjuration Wizard dropping shields on people while doing my thing.

You've got tons of options.

Druids can also prepare Cure Wounds if you just HAVE to have it in case of emergency. But personally, I prefer Bards. Lore Bards can do a bit of blasting with Magical Secrets, Valor Bards can melee or range depending on preference. and then there's the plethora of stuff you can do with a Bard the rest of the time. Manipulate shopkeepers for better deals, make your own healing potions or level one scrolls of Cure Wounds since in this edition it takes a caster to actually make potions and not a feat (two days, 50 gp for either, but only those of the same class as a scroll's maker can use it)

There's also the option of going Bard, dipping two levels of Warlock for the obvious reasons. Valor Bard with taking War Caster and you're blasting things with DB while staying behind half-plate and a shield.

[Strill]

Problem is that after every encounter each of our characters were usually at half HP... After I cast prayer of healing. This is why I thought we needed healers. Maybe the DM can just tone it down a bit.That's what a wizard is for. Cast Web or Wall of Force and all of a sudden that hard encounter turns into two easy encounters, and you're not losing any health.

[Abrahadabra]

Any given Cleric can kick some butt with a weapon and/or damage spells, and/or provide a lot of non-healing support and still be a competent post-battle healer.

The thing about clerics is that Bless is just too good when your group has 11 to 12 attacks every round. The value is just immense. So my concentration slot is basically always occupied by the same spell, which makes the game even more boring. Sure, you can argue that I can just not cast Bless... But I cannot. :smalltongue:

[Abrahadabra]

That's what a wizard is for. Cast Web or Wall of Force and all of a sudden that hard encounter turns into two easy encounters, and you're not losing any health.

How often do monsters have proficiency with strength checks? I actually checked the monster manual quickly and couldn't find any that had. But I do expect lots of fire creatures in our campaign, so I don't trust Web that much. The walls are amazing though, but only after two levels (we're at 7th, stone comes at 9th).

Also, we don't really have a skill-monkey and a party face (my cleric was the face), and Bards are awesome at doing both. I think I'm really going with the bard here.

[MaxWilson]

How often do monsters have proficiency with strength checks? I actually checked the monster manual quickly and couldn't find any that had. But I do expect lots of fire creatures in our campaign, so I don't trust Web that much. The walls are amazing though, but only after two levels (we're at 7th, stone comes at 9th).

Also, we don't really have a skill-monkey and a party face (my cleric was the face). and Bards are awesome at doing both. I think I'm really going with the bard here.

There's no such thing as proficiency with Strength checks. Strength saves, yes. Strength (Athletics) checks, yes. (Fire Giants have +11 to Athletics, and Stone Giants have +12.) Neither of those things will help you against a Web though.

The big problem with Wall of Stone IMO is that you need existing stone to cast it on. Very campaign-dependent.

[Abrahadabra]

There's no such thing as proficiency with Strength checks. Strength saves, yes. Strength (Athletics) checks, yes. (Fire Giants have +11 to Athletics, and Stone Giants have +12.) Neither of those things will help you against a Web though.

Woops, I read that wrong.


The big problem with Wall of Stone IMO is that you need existing stone to cast it on. Very campaign-dependent.

It's the first relevant wall for that sort of thing though.

[Strill]

How often do monsters have proficiency with strength checks? I actually checked the monster manual quickly and couldn't find any that had. But I do expect lots of fire creatures in our campaign, so I don't trust Web that much. The walls are amazing though, but only after two levels (we're at 7th, stone comes at 9th).

Also, we don't really have a skill-monkey and a party face (my cleric was the face), and Bards are awesome at doing both. I think I'm really going with the bard here.

It doesn't matter. The check to break out of Web is just a Strength ability check, so they can't get proficiency. However, even that doesn't matter because if they're spending their turn trying to break out of the web, then that's a turn they're not spending attacking the party, which is fantastic value for a 2nd-level spell.

Moreover, it also doesn't matter if they set the web on fire because that individual tile of web doesn't get destroyed until the following turn, while the rest of the web remains standing. They're still wasting their turn attacking a web instead of the party, which is what you want.


It's the first relevant wall for that sort of thing though.Nope. Wall of Force comes at the same level, and Wall of Fire comes at 7th level.

[MaxWilson]

It's the first relevant wall for that sort of thing though.

Yes, that's true, for some spellcasters like sorcerers.

I don't know if you're still planning on going cleric, but if so there are some spells you might find interesting which don't conflict with Bless. Spiritual Weapon is one; Blindness/Deafness is another, and it scales with higher-level slots so you can cast Blindness IV to blind three creatures. Command, Animate Dead, Guardian of Faith, Inflict Wounds, Sanctuary, and Warding Bond may also be of interest.

At high levels, Planar Ally and Planar Binding may also be of interest; technically you could Planar Bind anything that you call through Planar Ally although the diplomatic repercussions may be severe.

[Malifice]

Go a dedicated healer, that isnt dedicated to healing.

All you need for healing is:

Life Cleric 1, Warlock [ancients] 2, Druid [moon] 1

Abuse the recent ruling on [Goodberry + Disciple of life] and your 2 x 1st level warlock slots per short rest, to spam 20 berries every short rest, each of which heals 4 HP.

Thats a 4th level character that heals 80HP per short rest. Based around 2 short rests per long rest, thats 240 HP per day to ration out.

Feel free to burn Cleric/ Druid slots for more healing if needed. Take the Healer feat for a few more HP per short rest.

Select agonizing blast and repelling blast for your evocations. Spam Eldritch blast. Cast hex with your normal slots (leave your warlock slots for healing).

From there I would probably just stick with Druid through to Druid 17/ Lock 2/ Cleric 1

Dump Strength, Dex (wont need them in wildshape). Pump Wisdom, Charisma.

[MaxWilson]

Abuse the recent ruling on [Goodberry + Disciple of life] and your 2 x 1st level warlock slots per short rest, to spam 20 berries every short rest, each of which heals 4 HP.

Be careful. A DM who actually reads the text of the PHB will not apply Disciple of Life to Goodberries--it clearly does not qualify because it does not restore HP. (Trying to pretend like it does leads you down a rabbit hole of other logical contradictions too, such as a caster with Blessed Healer regaining HP the first time somebody eats a Goodberry.) A DM who slavishly follows Sage Advice will, but that breaks the First Rule of Sage Advice:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/647471266606125056


What's the 1st rule of Sage Advice? The DM—not the rulebooks or the sage—is the game's adjudicator. The 2nd rule? Don't forget the 1st.

There may be some DMs who will, on their own initiative, come to the same conclusion that Sage Advice did, but I wouldn't assume that your DM will be one of them.

[busterswd]

Bard or Moon Druid are both good choice for picking a class that can control, heal, and still do other things; just let your party know that while you're fine offhealing, your focus is going to be more on control. Alternatively, stock up on healer's kits and give yourself Healer, grabbing the feat as well. You'll lose an ASI but can basically otherwise stick to your own character concept.


I'm actually thinking about making a Lore Bard now. But when my eyes hit Find Familiar and Find Steed... Well, I guess that lvl 6 is gonna be spent on cosmetics and utility.

Gah. If you're dedicted to the idea, you can, but using a magical secret on Find Familiar can be a big waste; spend a feat to get it, instead. Ritual Caster isn't a bad bard feat if you want to know more spells, anyway.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Speaking of feats, Magic Initiate can get you the Cure Wounds spell, which isn't really dependent on having a high spellcasting ability. Any caster can make good use of the CW spell.

[Coidzor]

Be more tactical in how you retreat and rest more when it comes to dungeoncrawls.


If not for the fact that I use character trees, so the players have backup PCs, those players would have been out of the game for several sessions.

Indeed, as you've noted this was entirely within your power and a natural example of how any time the DM would have players out of the game for more than a session is a failure on the part of the DM, not the players.

Knowing whether the DM is so inflexible that there's no workaround for if they use such things is a crucial component in making a decision like this, along with whether they'd use such things in the first place and what distances from civilization and support would be involved as well as what support they could actually get from local temples and healing organizations.

[DireSickFish]

In any party a healer isn't necessary, and you really need to make sure the party knows you aren't a healbot when you play a cleric this edition. With a fighter and a low AC barb keeping them at full hp would be a near impossible job, or you'd be wasting to many resources on doing it. As you already saw your healing couldn't keep up with the damage taken. That's what short and long rests are for.

Bless and haste would be great buffs for this crew but it looks like you're lacking in AoE. Monks are good at taking out mooks but a fireball or two could really save your hide. Look into wizard, sorcerer, light cleric, or fiend pack warlock. This will diversify the party and give you options, and having a strong ranged threat will help the mele guys out.

If a battlefield has hazards between you and the enemy it could take a lot of damage just getting to the enemy so that you can hack it apart with an axe.

[CoggieRagabash]

The thing to remember is that while healing is great, preventing damage is far better. It's a good idea to have someone who can heal well in emergencies or remove lasting problems by way of Remove Curse or a restoration spell. But in combat, your first priority should be ending the encounter swiftly and efficiently, balancing expenditure of resources and timely prevention of damage to the team.

So a cleric's not a bad idea at all, they're quite effective. A druid or bard can also perform the same function (though a bard would have to permanently learn things like Remove Curse or Greater Restoration which is a costly thing for a class with a limited number of spells known). Just don't let anyone, yourself included, convince you that your priority in combat is to save all your spell slots for healing spells. You can prevent that damage from ever happening by funneling the enemies around the field, CCing a troublesome foe, or just managing to take a monster out before its next turn.

[MirddinEmris]

I would suggest playing Wizard with 1-2 level dip in Cleric. First of all, 2 level dip in Cleric is still as awesome as it was in 3.5, they are pretty front loaded and offer a lot of customization and second, with how multiclass spellcasting works in 5e, you will have spellslots as id you were full level cleric and full level wizard. Yes, you will be full spell level behind as wizard and would be able to cast only 1st level cleric spells, but you will have 4th level slots for both wziard and cleric and can use it to cast spells that scales with spell level. Cure wounds is a scalable 1st level spell, you would be able to spend ALL cleric spell slots purely on curing allies and still have you wizard casting for anything else. It's a pretty powerful combination, especially if Wizard is Abjurer (both preventing and healing damage, right here). Basically you can become a character who just refuses to let party be in a harm way

I would recommend either 2 level of Knowledge cleric (goes very well with wizards in terms of fluff and gives you nice abilities) or 1 level Life (to heal better) because 2nd level ability for Life domain is level dependent and would become obsolete very quickly.

Also, proficiency in medium and possibly heavy armor is pretty good, you can be more defensive if you dumped your dexterity. And if you take Periat of Wisdom, you can even debuff decently as a cleric, there are couple of nice 1st level spells for that.

[NNescio]

I would suggest playing Wizard with 1-2 level dip in Cleric. First of all, 2 level dip in Cleric is still as awesome as it was in 3.5, they are pretty front loaded and offer a lot of customization and second, with how multiclass spellcasting works in 5e, you will have spellslots as id you were full level cleric and full level wizard. Yes, you will be full spell level behind as wizard and would be able to cast only 1st level cleric spells, but you will have 4th level slots for both wziard and cleric and can use it to cast spells that scales with spell level. Cure wounds is a scalable 1st level spell, you would be able to spend ALL cleric spell slots purely on curing allies and still have you wizard casting for anything else. It's a pretty powerful combination, especially if Wizard is Abjurer (both preventing and healing damage, right here). Basically you can become a character who just refuses to let party be in a harm way

I would recommend either 2 level of Knowledge cleric (goes very well with wizards in terms of fluff and gives you nice abilities) or 1 level Life (to heal better) because 2nd level ability for Life domain is level dependent and would become obsolete very quickly.

Also, proficiency in medium and possibly heavy armor is pretty good, you can be more defensive if you dumped your dexterity. And if you take Periat of Wisdom, you can even debuff decently as a cleric, there are couple of nice 1st level spells for that.

Uh, no. Your spell slots are shared among all your spellcasting classes. You don't get separate spell slots for each one. So a multiclass Wizard/Cleric will get spell slots as though he were a full level Wizard OR a full level Cleric, but not both.

(He gets spells [i]known as though he were a single-class Wizard AND Cleric though, but he doesn't get to add his Cleric levels to his Wizard ones to determine spells known or vice versa.)

(To be pedantic, the multiclass Wizard/Cleric doesn't technically count as a full level Wizard or Cleric for anything. He counts as having an effective "character level" equal to his combined Wizard and Cleric levels for the purposes of determining spell slots, as per the Multiclass Spellcaster table given on Page 165 of the PHB.)

If you spend all your "Cleric spell slots", you'd have also spent all your Wizard spell slots as well, as they draw from the same pool.

A clear example is given in Page 164 of the PHB, where the Ranger 4/Wizard 3 counts as a 5th level spellcaster for purposes of determining spell slots, and has "four 1st level slots, three 2nd level slots, and two 3rd level slots." Ranger is a half-caster here. The RAW is explicitly clear here.

RAI, it's definitely against the devs' intent for a character to double their spell slots just by taking a single level in another spellcasting class.

That said, Cleric 2 or Cleric 1 is still a good multiclass option for a Wizard, even if being a spell level behind can be annoying at times.

[MirddinEmris]

Uh, no. Your spell slots are shared among all your spellcasting classes. You don't get separate spell slots for each one. So a multiclass Wizard/Cleric will get spell slots as though he were a full level Wizard OR a full level Cleric, but not both.

(He gets spells [i]known as though he were a single-class Wizard AND Cleric though, but he doesn't get to add his Cleric levels to his Wizard ones to determine spells known or vice versa.)

(To be pedantic, the multiclass Wizard/Cleric doesn't technically count as a full level Wizard or Cleric for anything. He counts as having an effective "character level" equal to his combined Wizard and Cleric levels for the purposes of determining spell slots, as per the Multiclass Spellcaster table given on Page 165 of the PHB.)

If you spend all your "Cleric spell slots", you'd have also spent all your Wizard spell slots as well, as they draw from the same pool.

A clear example is given in Page 164 of the PHB, where the Ranger 4/Wizard 3 counts as a 5th level spellcaster for purposes of determining spell slots, and has "four 1st level slots, three 2nd level slots, and two 3rd level slots." Ranger is a half-caster here. The RAW is explicitly clear here.

RAI, it's definitely against the devs' intent for a character to double their spell slots just by taking a single level in another spellcasting class.

That said, Cleric 2 or Cleric 1 is still a good multiclass option for a Wizard, even if being a spell level behind can be annoying at times.

Well, my bad. Didn't play spellcasters that much yet (let alone multiclassing ones), and was under impression that they get separate tables for spell slots. But after rereading rules it's clear that you are right about it. And yeah, that would be too powerful of an option to have if i was right.

But yeah, even in that case, 1-2 level dip is pretty good choice - armor proficiency, new spells to choose from, and pretty powerful abilities. Healer is not a good combat role to dedicate yourself, but being able to heal allies in time of trouble often can be a life-saver. After all, Cure Wounds is cheaper than Revivify or Resurrection. I really like second level Knowledge domain ability to grant yourself a proficiency in a skill even if it only for 10 min 1/day. And double prof bonus for your "knowledge" skills (not really clear if it is for all 4 of them or only 2 that you choose) is pretty nifty either.

Also with 3 melee chars, being able to cast Bless would be pretty potent.

[djreynolds]

Lore Bard14 / Paladin 6, 3 Lore bard, then get the 6 paladin early, and then the rest bard. Easy build, optimized. Skills, healing, face, back-up tank, inspiration, etc. Leadership feat, someone has to tell the brutes to wash behind their ears.

[Corey]

Cleric dip is good for most arcane casters. It adds armor. It adds extra cantrips, if you like those. In the case of Bard, it also adds a decent attack cantrip. Several of domain features are also cool -- Life to help with healing and Knowledge to help w/ stereotypical Wizard things are obvious.

That's 1-2 levels of dip, depending on the details.

Given what you've said about your preferences and situation, I'd probably do Lore Bard with a 1-level Life Cleric dip.