Gestalt Spell slots and 5e

[daze413]

Hi guys, I've been meaning to get a game of Gestalt 5e up for a bunch of my friends but I hit a snag on the spell slots for a gestalt character.

I wanted to give it a shot and balance the spell slots at one-and-a-half rounded up. Meaning, characters with a class with the Full spellcasting class feature (like the Wizard and Sorcerer but not the warlock because of the pact magic) get their full spell slots, and the other class gets half the slots. This is what the Spell slot table would look like:


1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1 3 - - - - - - - -
2 5 - - - - - - - -
3 6 3 - - - - - - -
4 6 5 - - - - - - -
5 6 5 3 - - - - - -
6 6 5 5 - - - - - -
7 6 5 5 2 - - - - -
8 6 5 5 3 - - - - -
9 6 5 5 5 2 - - - -
10 6 5 5 5 3 - - - -
11 6 5 5 5 3 2 - - -
12 6 5 5 5 3 2 - - -
13 6 5 5 5 3 2 2 - -
14 6 5 5 5 3 2 2 - -
15 6 5 5 5 3 2 2 2 -
16 6 5 5 5 3 2 2 2 -
17 6 5 5 5 3 2 2 2 2
18 6 5 5 5 5 2 2 2 2
19 6 5 5 5 5 3 2 2 2
20 6 5 5 5 5 3 3 2 2


In the case of a half-spellcasting class like Ranger or Paladin mixed with a Full spellcasting class, the character gets the full spell slots of the full spellcasting class and half of the Ranger/Paladin class slots.


1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1 2
2 4 - - - -
3 6 2 - - -
4 6 3 - - -
5 6 4 2 - -
6 6 4 3 - -
7 6 5 3 1 -
8 6 5 3 2 -
9 6 5 4 3 1
10 6 5 4 3 2
11 6 5 5 3 2 1
12 6 5 5 3 2 1
13 6 5 5 4 2 1 1
14 6 5 5 4 2 1 1
15 6 5 5 4 2 1 1 1
16 6 5 5 4 2 1 1 1
17 6 5 5 5 3 1 1 1 1
18 6 5 5 5 4 1 1 1 1
19 6 5 5 5 4 2 1 1 1
20 6 5 5 5 4 2 2 1 1


For Gestalt Eldritch Knights and Arcane Trickster Rogues,


1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1 2
2 3 - - -
3 5 2 - -
4 6 3 - -
5 6 3 2 -
6 6 3 3 -
7 6 4 3 1
8 6 4 3 2
9 6 4 3 3 1
10 6 5 3 3 2
11 6 5 3 3 2 1
12 6 5 3 3 2 1
13 6 5 4 3 2 1 1
14 6 5 4 3 2 1 1
15 6 5 4 3 2 1 1 1
16 6 5 5 3 2 1 1 1
17 6 5 5 3 2 1 1 1 1
18 6 5 5 3 3 1 1 1 1
19 6 5 5 4 3 2 1 1 1
20 6 5 5 4 3 2 2 1 1


I haven't done the half-caster/half-caster or half-caster/third-caster spell slots yet. If this goes well, I might make them.

Does this look balanced at all? What can I add/remove to improve this?

Any comments are welcome and please be gentle. :smallbiggrin:

[Nifft]

For most class features, gestalt just gives the better progression, not 1.5x the better progression.

IMHO you'd do fine to just grant whichever progression is better -- so a Wizard // Ranger would have full Wizard spell slot progression, plus she could use those slots for her Ranger spells.

Warlocks, which have their own separate progression, would be a way to extend your casting beyond full progression -- just like how they interact with multiclassing, really.

[daze413]

For most class features, gestalt just gives the better progression, not 1.5x the better progression.

IMHO you'd do fine to just grant whichever progression is better -- so a Wizard // Ranger would have full Wizard spell slot progression, plus she could use those slots for her Ranger spells.

Warlocks, which have their own separate progression, would be a way to extend your casting beyond full progression -- just like how they interact with multiclassing, really.

Considering that a martial/caster gestalt will have the same progression, this would discourage players from taking a caster/caster setup, I think.

Because while martial/casters get the full benefit of both class features, a caster/caster would have only one and a half of the features of his classes, gaining only the features of the other spellcasting class but not its spell slots. Which is why I added *half* the spell slot progression of the second (weaker) caster to make the caster/caster gestalt "whole".

[MeeposFire]

I think you are undervaluing the value of having multiple spell lists. That is a huge value at least as good in many cases as the synergy between various martial classes (also not everything for a martial class helps such as extra attack not stacking and other features like additional weapon styles which do not make you way much more powerful but make you more versatile which is like a much more limited benefit like the spell list for a caster).

Also do not forget that many casters have an ability that they can use to get more spell slots or abilities. A hypothetical sorc|wiz would have two separate abilities that could be used to create more spell slots so he would have more spells than either class as standard.

[coredump]

What if you just boosted their level in regards to slots.

So at 6th level, they had the same slots as a normal 9th level caster. They would not have any 4th or 5th level spells, so those slots would just be for upcasting.

You could also make it not +1/2, but only 1/3 or 1/4.

Or just make it a straight X level bump.

[Cybren]

Considering that a martial/caster gestalt will have the same progression, this would discourage players from taking a caster/caster setup, I think.

Because while martial/casters get the full benefit of both class features, a caster/caster would have only one and a half of the features of his classes, gaining only the features of the other spellcasting class but not its spell slots. Which is why I added *half* the spell slot progression of the second (weaker) caster to make the caster/caster gestalt "whole".

I don't think that's a bad thing. There's still class feature synergies, and it makes warlocks very valuable as a secondary class for casters. (Would mystic arcanum spells count as spells known for your spell slots?)

[daze413]

I think you are undervaluing the value of having multiple spell lists. That is a huge value at least as good in many cases as the synergy between various martial classes (also not everything for a martial class helps such as extra attack not stacking and other features like additional weapon styles which do not make you way much more powerful but make you more versatile which is like a much more limited benefit like the spell list for a caster).

Also do not forget that many casters have an ability that they can use to get more spell slots or abilities. A hypothetical sorc|wiz would have two separate abilities that could be used to create more spell slots so he would have more spells than either class as standard.

A super-expanded spell list is only going to make a caster/caster more flexible, just like the weapon styles that don't stack, because casters are limited to the Action economy of the game. It just gives them more options, and a bigger role to fill.


What if you just boosted their level in regards to slots.

So at 6th level, they had the same slots as a normal 9th level caster. They would not have any 4th or 5th level spells, so those slots would just be for upcasting.

Opposite to the statement of MeeposFire above, giving them spell slots in this way WILL make the gestalt more powerful on top of what they are already able to achieve. Generally, this will give them more firepower than the rest of the party which isn't very fun for the others.


I don't think that's a bad thing. There's still class feature synergies, and it makes warlocks very valuable as a secondary class for casters. (Would mystic arcanum spells count as spells known for your spell slots?)
Synergies exist in both martial/martial and martial/caster setups, the contention to the increase in spell slots is due to this fact that caster/caster setups, while also getting synergy, only has one spell slot progression. You don't take out the Barb/Monk's rage or ki and make him use just one for both features.

Yes, Warlock is a pretty good gestalt option for a Caster, and this is why I'm trying to increase the spell slots available to encourage non-lock caster/caster (Imagine all the pacts you'd have to make!)

I don't believe mystic arcanum counts against your spells known, they don't even count as spell slots because you can't cast your spells known as a 6th level.

[fireinthedust]

I strongly recommend keeping the spell slots the same. The warlock only goes up to fifth level and isn't as good as a full caster. The power of the full casters would be prepared spells plus spells known.

You wouldn't use the extra spell slots by the end of the day, but all spells would be cast at high levels.

A sorcerer wizard with evoker and spell points could maximize damage on all spells and always cast at high levels of damage. Plus bonus actions for extra punch.

I'd suggest trying with just the abilities, even for ranger or eldritch knights. the extra spells won't be used for anything but bonus damage.

[Nifft]

When a Fighter // Ranger hits level 5, he does not get 150% of two attacks per turn.

I don't see any reason why a Cleric // Wizard ought to get 150% of spell slots.

Being a Wizard already has a huge number of non-slot features, just like Fighter and Ranger have a huge number of features other than just Extra Attack.

[daze413]

You wouldn't use the extra spell slots by the end of the day, but all spells would be cast at high levels.

A sorcerer wizard with evoker and spell points could maximize damage on all spells and always cast at high levels of damage. Plus bonus actions for extra punch.

I'd suggest trying with just the abilities, even for ranger or eldritch knights. the extra spells won't be used for anything but bonus damage.

That is a good point I overlooked. Thank you for the insight.

So, in the end, it's just "use the better class's spell slots", then.

[Gnomes2169]

That is a good point I overlooked. Thank you for the insight.

So, in the end, it's just "use the better class's spell slots", then.

This is the conclusion that I came to as well when sketching up some quick gestalt rules (which I put in my signature). Just like a fighter//barbarian still only has one action/ bonus action/ object interaction and can't stack their extra attacks and all that, casters don't stack slots (#of encounters does not increase after all, just their difficulty).