Crazy Champion Tweak

[djreynolds]

Let us revisit this shall we.

Warning: This not a prestige class but could be viewed as such. Its just a brainstorm and I'm sure you'll bash it but I think its neat.

Racial Champions. Every race has champions known that fight and his people emulate that. Legolas inspires other wood elves to be great archers, etc

A lot of players are bored with the champion, and I can agree. I play a champion, actually two of them, and I like them. I'm also currently playing a rogue and a wizard. But what people want out of the champion is something unique. So I have some proposed tweaks. At levels 3, 6, and 14 you will get something and lose something.

At level 3, if you did not take the soldier's background you may do so now in addition to your prior. If you did take the soldier's background, you get also now the Noble or Folk Hero background. Half-Elves get an additional background but no skills.

A champion should have some renown and popularity. I only chose Noble or Folk Hero, mainly because the skills are not physical ones, i.e. stealth, athletics. They give you some social stuff

At level 6, in place of your bonus feat you may choose a racial class feature.

Wood Elves- Open sky_you're people are known for their archers and your champions are the reason why. You must have the archery style, in place of a feat your bows deal an extra 1d2. Short bow is now 1d8, and long bow is 1d10- you lose this in the underdark, inside.

Drow- Noble you are a schooled fighter and now have a home in a great house, when in a dungeon, in a closed area, such as a building, or the underdark, you may use levitate once per day like a noble "might"

Folk Hero- you have been under the sun, you no longer fear it nor suffer disadvantage from it

High Elf- your people have mastered the long sword, when using a long sword with one or two-hands you may add the finesse quality to it, if you use a shield or an off-hand weapon you lose this benefit.

Eladrin- you get an extra use of misty step once a day, but this use can only be used to move in and attack, not retreat

Halflings- Hamstringer-people ignore you and pay for it. You small size is an advantage, when moving in combat and you draw an attack of opportunity against you, you may make a bonus attack and if it hits you adversary that is larger than you suffers half movement for the rest of the turn if the fail an intelligence save, d/c 8+int + prof. The movement penalty does not stack but can be done again to the same opponent

Gnomes- You can't get me- they're always getting pushed around, but not their champions, if you are shoved or grappled you can make an athletics check double your proficiency and add your highest ability modifier to its roll.

Half-orc- when using a weapon with a heavy property you add an additional critical die in addition to the one you get.

Goliath- when you grapple an opponent you can bear hug them for a number rounds equal to you con modifier, they can still escape you, and you damage them your strength modifier each round until they break free, your bear hug is up and they are subdued.

Human- Noble background -armored cavalry is devastating, if you have the mounted combatant feat, you deal an extra 1d2 with the following weapons-scimitar, flail, and war pick

Folk Hero- any weapon similar to a simple farmer's tool you add 1d2 to it base damage- you've imagined fighting dragons while forgetting your chores, trident (pitch fork), hand axe (chopping wood), ideas would be great

Dwarves- they know battle axes, warhammers, hand axes, and light hammers and every weapon has spikes and blades and blunt areas on them- when using these weapons they can after striking change the damage type of the weapon- bludgeoning, slashing and piercing.

half elf- choose your human or elf lineage.

14th level substitute a feat for a racial class feature, but you had to take the previous feat

Wood elf- open sky- when outside, not underground or in a building, you deal an additional +2 flat damage to your bow strikes

High Elf- when using a long sword two-handed and you have the GWS and GWM feat, you can use the GWM feat and ignore the heavy property section of the feat

Eladrin- you gain a 3rd use of misty step per day, this can be used for retreat

Drow - Noble when levitating, 3x's a day, and you have a free off hand you can fire your hand crossbow from above and if you hit, your damage is auto-crit, once per short rest

Folk Hero- You shouldn't be here- when ambushing a party in the underdark or dungeon and you have in your party at least two drow of equal or greater level and you have surprise and initiative, all damage is auto-cit for that surprise round

Dwarf- when using a battle axe or warhammer, if you hit you gain an bonus attack with that weapon for 1d6+strength modifier for piercing damage

Halfling- David and Goliath- a Halfling once per short rest, and using a thrown finesse weapon, sling, or bow can land a special shot that if hits blinds an opponent for 1 turn save charisma, d/c 8+ wisdom + prof-if you took the tavern brawler feat you can use this with a beer mug or rock or whatever is considered light and finesse

Goliath- if you bear hug someone and they cannot escape_ you can throw them feet + strength modifier and they land prone

Human Noble- you add again an additional 1d2 to the scimitar, flail, and war pick now 1d4
Folk hero- you add 1d2 to all simple weapons now and to farmer type weapons you add 1d4

Gnome- I got you now_ if you are grappled, you still retain your previous ability to break free, but now cause damage from scrapping and wriggling each round equal to your athletics skills check which is still double proficiency

Half Orc- you can use the GWM feat for throwing spears and javelins

[Malifice]

Increasing damage dice by 1 step in limited situations is weak in place of a feat.

Why wouldn't I just increase my stat mod by +1?

[Boci]

Increasing damage dice by 1 step in limited situations is weak in place of a feat.

Why wouldn't I just increase my stat mod by +1?

Obvious answer is because increased weapon dice stacks with having 20 in Strength or Dex, but that means waiting a fair while for it to matter, and even then the returns aren't exactly great. Maybe also throw in the extra weapon die on a crit half-orks get, only for ranged weapons?

[TopCheese]

Obvious answer is because increased weapon dice stacks with having 20 in Strength or Dex, but that means waiting a fair while for it to matter, and even then the returns aren't exactly great. Maybe also throw in the extra weapon die on a crit half-orks get, only for ranged weapons?

Because rolling bigger dice *feels* more important than it actually is.

d8, d10, and d12 really don't have that much of a difference but rolling the d12 *feels* bigger and more awesome.

Of course I have a 12 sided d4 and I get the same feeling when I use a dagger. :p

[djreynolds]

Increasing damage dice by 1 step in limited situations is weak in place of a feat.

Why wouldn't I just increase my stat mod by +1?

Feel free to edit

[djreynolds]

Feel free to edit. I'm just thinking of the spirit of the thing. Its not magical spells. I'm just trying to make it seem cool. Like, "hey that's cool, the high elf can use GWM with a long sword. I wasn't sure what was OP or UP.

But feel free to give some ideas and I'll change it up. I'm trying to make things unique and something you'd stay in the class for. Champion can be generic, I figure this could be cool

[TopCheese]

Warning: This not a prestige class but could be viewed as such. Its just a brainstorm and I'm sure you'll bash it but I think its neat.

Racial Champions. Every race has champions known that fight and his people emulate that. Legolas inspires other wood elves to be great archers, etc

A lot of players are bored with the champion, and I can agree. I play a champion, actually two of them, and I like them. I'm also currently playing a rogue and a wizard. But what people want out of the champion is something unique. So I have some proposed tweaks. At levels 3, 6, and 14 you will get something and lose something.

At level 3, if you did not take the soldier's background you may do so now in addition to your prior. If you did take the soldier's background, you get also now the Noble or Folk Hero background. Half-Elves get an additional background but no skills.

A champion should have some renown and popularity. I only chose Noble or Folk Hero, mainly because the skills are not physical ones, i.e. stealth, athletics. They give you some social stuff

At level 6, in place of your bonus feat you may choose a racial class feature.

Wood Elves- Open sky_you're people are known for their archers and your champions are the reason why. You must have the archery style, in place of a feat your bows deal an extra 1d2. Short bow is now 1d8, and long bow is 1d10- you lose this in the underdark, inside.

Drow- Noble you are a schooled fighter and now have a home in a great house, when in a dungeon, in a closed area, such as a building, or the underdark, you may use levitate once per day like a noble "might"

Folk Hero- you have been under the sun, you no longer fear it nor suffer disadvantage from it

High Elf- your people have mastered the long sword, when using a long sword with one or two-hands you may add the finesse quality to it, if you use a shield or an off-hand weapon you lose this benefit.

Eladrin- you get an extra use of misty step once a day, but this use can only be used to move in and attack, not retreat

Halflings- Hamstringer-people ignore you and pay for it. You small size is an advantage, when moving in combat and you draw an attack of opportunity against you, you may make a bonus attack and if it hits you adversary that is larger than you suffers half movement for the rest of the turn if the fail an intelligence save, d/c 8+int + prof. The movement penalty does not stack but can be done again to the same opponent

Gnomes- You can't get me- they're always getting pushed around, but not their champions, if you are shoved or grappled you can make an athletics check double your proficiency and add your highest ability modifier to its roll.

Half-orc- when using a weapon with a heavy property you add an additional critical die in addition to the one you get.

Goliath- when you grapple an opponent you can bear hug them for a number rounds equal to you con modifier, they can still escape you, and you damage them your strength modifier each round until they break free, your bear hug is up and they are subdued.

Human- Noble background -armored cavalry is devastating, if you have the mounted combatant feat, you deal an extra 1d2 with the following weapons-scimitar, flail, and war pick

Folk Hero- any weapon similar to a simple farmer's tool you add 1d2 to it base damage- you've imagined fighting dragons while forgetting your chores, trident (pitch fork), hand axe (chopping wood), ideas would be great

Dwarves- they know battle axes, warhammers, hand axes, and light hammers and every weapon has spikes and blades and blunt areas on them- when using these weapons they can after striking change the damage type of the weapon- bludgeoning, slashing and piercing.

half elf- choose your human or elf lineage.

14th level substitute a feat for a racial class feature, but you had to take the previous feat

Wood elf- open sky- when outside, not underground or in a building, you deal an additional +2 flat damage to your bow strikes

High Elf- when using a long sword two-handed and you have the GWS and GWM feat, you can use the GWM feat and ignore the heavy property section of the feat

Eladrin- you gain a 3rd use of misty step per day, this can be used for retreat

Drow - Noble when levitating, 3x's a day, and you have a free off hand you can fire your hand crossbow from above and if you hit, your damage is auto-crit, once per short rest

Folk Hero- You shouldn't be here- when ambushing a party in the underdark or dungeon and you have in your party at least two drow of equal or greater level and you have surprise and initiative, all damage is auto-cit for that surprise round

Dwarf- when using a battle axe or warhammer, if you hit you gain an bonus attack with that weapon for 1d6+strength modifier for piercing damage

Halfling- David and Goliath- a Halfling once per short rest, and using a thrown finesse weapon, sling, or bow can land a special shot that if hits blinds an opponent for 1 turn save charisma, d/c 8+ wisdom + prof-if you took the tavern brawler feat you can use this with a beer mug or rock or whatever is considered light and finesse

Goliath- if you bear hug someone and they cannot escape_ you can throw them feet + strength modifier and they land prone

Human Noble- you add again an additional 1d2 to the scimitar, flail, and war pick now 1d4
Folk hero- you add 1d2 to all simple weapons now and to farmer type weapons you add 1d4

Gnome- I got you now_ if you are grappled, you still retain your previous ability to break free, but now cause damage from scrapping and wriggling each round equal to your athletics skills check which is still double proficiency

Half Orc- you can use the GWM feat for throwing spears and javelins

Some of your stuff is way too specific (when it can be used) which defeats the purpose of 5e and the Champion.

Also, why would a wood elf have an ability based on not being in the woods? They get better away from their natural habitat? That's a bit odd.

Anyways here are my proposed edits... These have neither been tested or thought out all that long haha.

B]Wood Elves[/B]- Dead Eye: Your people are known for their archers and your champions are the reason why. Your archery fighting style bonus improves to +4 when you use inspiration on an attack roll with a ranged weapon.

Drow - Wary Champion: You have faught long and hard to get to your position of prestige. Most would assume only your ruthlessness is what earned you a long life but in fact your skills defense have saved you more times than naught. When you use the defensive fighting style you count as an adjacent ally for the purpose of imposing disadvantage (because really, you are your only ally).

High Elf- Dancing Blade: Your people have mastered the long sword, when using a long sword with one or two-hands you may replace your strength modifier with your dexterity modifier for attack and damage rolls.

Eladrin- Whenever you use your misty step racial ability, creatures have disadvantage on attack rolls against you till the start of your next turn.

Halflings- Artful Dodge- Once per short rest, when moving in combat and you provoke an OA you may use your reaction to make an Acrobatics check versus a DC of the attack roll. Of you succeed, if the enemy hit or missed your AC, they take half damage from their attack (if they hit you still take full damage, if they miss you take no damage but they still roll and take half damage).

Gnomes- Neener Neener Boo Boo, Stick Your Head In Doo Doo, I'm Better Than You- Just when a creature thinks they have you in their grip, you slip right through their hands. Anytime you make an athletics or acrobatics check to escape from a grapple you have advantage.

Half-orc- Whenever you roll weapon damage you may replace one weapon damage die with your constitution modifier of the weapon damage die is larger than your con modifier.

Goliath- Your grapples are especially dangerous. Whenever you successfully grapple a target (or as a reaction when preventing a target from escaping a grapple) you deal unarmed strike damage.

Human- Versitile Weapontry: Most races look at human champions and say "that's not how that works... Ok sure it worked but it shouldn't have...". Choose one of the following

All melee weapons gain the Versitile property.

All range weapons can be used as an improvised melee weapon with no penalty (hand crossbow d4, shortbow d6, longbow d8 base damage).

All two handed weapons (non-versitile) can be used as finesse weapons by removing the heavy property and reducing the damage die to no more than d10.

Dwarves- Dwarves treat all hammers and axes as ranged weapons when they throw them. They can only benefit from one fighting style at a time. Additionally when they throw a hammer or axe they can bounce it off their enemy or wall and have it return to them.

half elf- choose your human or elf lineage.

[DanyBallon]

My only concern s that your abilities do not use a archetype slot, but a fighter ASI slot, so any fighter can get them not just Champion.

You could give these ability on top of the ability gained by the champion at 7th and 15th or even better, replace the 2nd figthing style at 10th by the racial bonus.

Also, I must say that I like the proposed idea of TopCheese as they seem a bit more straight forward.

[CNagy]

High Elf- your people have mastered the long sword, when using a long sword with one or two-hands you may add the finesse quality to it, if you use a shield or an off-hand weapon you lose this benefit.

Problematic; you've just created a weapon that can be used in conjunction with both GWF style and Sneak Attack. There's a few ways that goes bad.

[TopCheese]

My only concern s that your abilities do not use a archetype slot, but a fighter ASI slot, so any fighter can get them not just Champion.


Yeah, I forgot to mention this.

I could understand if they were feats with prerequisite "champion fighter 6" but they aren't really balanced with feats.

I think you could give these at level 4 or 6 AND give them their ASI (but can't pick up a feat).

Edit

Problematic; you've just created a weapon that can be used in conjunction with both GWF style and Sneak Attack. There's a few ways that goes bad.

Which is why I changed it to the monk type "replace x with y" with my edits, totally forgot to explain why lol.

Though someone did the math, having a reach weapon (without heavy tag and with finesse tag) doesn't OP the rogue.

[Cazero]

The background stuff is nonsensical. You can't gain a background, that would be like fusing with a clone that was learning random stuff the whole time. Also, backgrounds are not supposed to be an exhaustive list and are just an excuse for customization with basic features outside of the usual class boundaries.

The rest sound suspiciously like racial specific fighting styles that aren't good enough to be picked if you don't have a spare one.

[TopCheese]

The background stuff is nonsensical. You can't gain a background, that would be like fusing with a clone that was learning random stuff the whole time. Also, backgrounds are not supposed to be an exhaustive list and are just an excuse for customization with basic features outside of the usual class boundaries.

The rest sound suspiciously like racial specific fighting styles that aren't good enough to be picked if you don't have a spare one.

Well no.

Gaining a new background makes sense, or else you could never have gained it to begin with.

Perhaps they would need a new name but...

You start out as a soldier but as you adventure you have to interact with a lot of nobles. Eventually these nobles don't see you as a common soldier but as a noble soldier. Through this unofficial training and elbow rubbing you could gain the skills and background benefit of the Noble background.

You are still a Barbarian, a Soldier, and now you are considered a Noble too.

Totally going to start using backgrounds as quest rewards.

[djreynolds]

Things can change, and I like the other guys new ideas too. I'm just tired of finding reasons not to multiclass.

The idea is to mimic iconic racial fighters, champions. I like the champion, but often races are avoided because they grant things a fighter will get.

But the ideas so far are cool. That's the point. I'm cool with critiques but throw in some ideas too. Remember champions get 7 feats but 6&14, are the bonus areas. If the feats are too weak then by all means improve them.

The idea is that you have to be 6th level champion and then 14th level champion, and it should not generic, but what you should expect from a dwarven champion, a human nobleman, or elven prince.

Social bonuses would be good, famous or infamous. But I need both pros and cons, and changes. Stat bonuses are cool too.

[djreynolds]

Some of your stuff is way too specific (when it can be used) which defeats the purpose of 5e and the Champion.

Also, why would a wood elf have an ability based on not being in the woods? They get better away from their natural habitat? That's a bit odd.

Anyways here are my proposed edits... These have neither been tested or thought out all that long haha.

B]Wood Elves[/B]- Dead Eye: Your people are known for their archers and your champions are the reason why. Your archery fighting style bonus improves to +4 when you use inspiration on an attack roll with a ranged weapon.

Drow - Wary Champion: You have faught long and hard to get to your position of prestige. Most would assume only your ruthlessness is what earned you a long life but in fact your skills defense have saved you more times than naught. When you use the defensive fighting style you count as an adjacent ally for the purpose of imposing disadvantage (because really, you are your only ally).

High Elf- Dancing Blade: Your people have mastered the long sword, when using a long sword with one or two-hands you may replace your strength modifier with your dexterity modifier for attack and damage rolls.

Eladrin- Whenever you use your misty step racial ability, creatures have disadvantage on attack rolls against you till the start of your next turn.

Halflings- Artful Dodge- Once per short rest, when moving in combat and you provoke an OA you may use your reaction to make an Acrobatics check versus a DC of the attack roll. Of you succeed, if the enemy hit or missed your AC, they take half damage from their attack (if they hit you still take full damage, if they miss you take no damage but they still roll and take half damage).

Gnomes- Neener Neener Boo Boo, Stick Your Head In Doo Doo, I'm Better Than You- Just when a creature thinks they have you in their grip, you slip right through their hands. Anytime you make an athletics or acrobatics check to escape from a grapple you have advantage.

Half-orc- Whenever you roll weapon damage you may replace one weapon damage die with your constitution modifier of the weapon damage die is larger than your con modifier.

Goliath- Your grapples are especially dangerous. Whenever you successfully grapple a target (or as a reaction when preventing a target from escaping a grapple) you deal unarmed strike damage.

Human- Versitile Weapontry: Most races look at human champions and say "that's not how that works... Ok sure it worked but it shouldn't have...". Choose one of the following

All melee weapons gain the Versitile property.

All range weapons can be used as an improvised melee weapon with no penalty (hand crossbow d4, shortbow d6, longbow d8 base damage).

All two handed weapons (non-versitile) can be used as finesse weapons by removing the heavy property and reducing the damage die to no more than d10.

Dwarves- Dwarves treat all hammers and axes as ranged weapons when they throw them. They can only benefit from one fighting style at a time. Additionally when they throw a hammer or axe they can bounce it off their enemy or wall and have it return to them.

half elf- choose your human or elf lineage.

The wood elf thing is only outside, not in caves or dungeons or rooms.

Otherwise, I like you style. Can use some?

[djreynolds]

Well no.

Gaining a new background makes sense, or else you could never have gained it to begin with.

Perhaps they would need a new name but...

You start out as a soldier but as you adventure you have to interact with a lot of nobles. Eventually these nobles don't see you as a common soldier but as a noble soldier. Through this unofficial training and elbow rubbing you could gain the skills and background benefit of the Noble background.

You are still a Barbarian, a Soldier, and now you are considered a Noble too.

Totally going to start using backgrounds as quest rewards.

I like the idea of the champion becoming famous. But obviously people are gonna take this or that.

Perhaps instead of soldier only noble or folk hero as the bonus. Champions should be of the public

[djreynolds]

Obvious answer is because increased weapon dice stacks with having 20 in Strength or Dex, but that means waiting a fair while for it to matter, and even then the returns aren't exactly great. Maybe also throw in the extra weapon die on a crit half-orks get, only for ranged weapons?

I see orcs throwing spears, just more concept like. But I don't want to step on the melee great axe barbarian.

[TopCheese]

The wood elf thing is only outside, not in caves or dungeons or rooms.

Otherwise, I like you style. Can use some?
The race has darkvision and no obvious reason to be hampered by rooms, caves, or dungeons. If they can shoot a bow while covered all around with bushes and trees I see no reason that they can't use it while in an open space.

Don't punish players based on what you want their character to be.

Anyways.

Yeah those were all just suggestions, anything I make is fair game to use as I don't technically own anything.

[Malifice]

I think its overly complex.

Which defeats the purpose of the Champion.

I'f you want to buff the Champ, and I don't think it's needed, just give them a few static bonuses (weapon specialisation with a weapon they can swap out, some Cha skill buff for being awesome and renouned and make the athlete thing give them expertise in either athletics or acrobatics).

Deals with buffs to all 3 pillars, and doesn't mess with the core draw of the class.

[DanyBallon]

Elves are the only race that get different champion racial ability for each subrace. Could we find a single ability that would apply to all elven subraces in order to be on par with other races? (I think it would be easier doing this than trying to find abilities for every other races subraces)
It could be similar to TopCheese wood elf ability; Elves would get a +2 bonus to hit when spending a inspiration point. this would stack with archery fighting style, making Elven champion specialized in archery even better.

Also, I'm thinking that every racial ability could be linked to inspiration and Champion would get 1 inspiration point per long rest at 3rd, and 1/rest at 15th. or something along these line.

Limiting bonus background to Noble or Folk Hero make sense. And both could be easily justified through role play.

[TopCheese]

Elves are the only race that get different champion racial ability for each subrace. Could we find a single ability that would apply to all elven subraces in order to be on par with other races? (I think it would be easier doing this than trying to find abilities for every other races subraces)
It could be similar to TopCheese wood elf ability; Elves would get a +2 bonus to hit when spending a inspiration point. this would stack with archery fighting style, making Elven champion specialized in archery even better.

Also, I'm thinking that every racial ability could be linked to inspiration and Champion would get 1 inspiration point per long rest at 3rd, and 1/rest at 15th. or something along these line.

Limiting bonus background to Noble or Folk Hero make sense. And both could be easily justified through role play.

I would say give all subraces their own thing, but I'm crazy like that.

I like the idea of linking racial abilities to inspiration but there is only so much you can do with it.

Maybe to use an ability you have to spend inspiration, even if it isn't normally a situation you could spend your inspiration. This would make all racial champion features more DM dependent but you could make them a bit stronger.

All backgrounds can be justified via role play, that's the beauty of role play. Urchin, Sailor, Acolyte, and Criminal all have easy to role play scenarios.

[Cazero]

You start out as a soldier but as you adventure you have to interact with a lot of nobles. Eventually these nobles don't see you as a common soldier but as a noble soldier. Through this unofficial training and elbow rubbing you could gain the skills and background benefit of the Noble background.
Anyone should be able to benefit from that regardless of class features. Giving the Champion a class feature dedicated to it can push DMs back into the breathing mermaid problem of 3e. 'The champion has a class feature for it, so nobody else can get it' is the same as the stupid 'only spell X can do it' problem : shouldn't be a problem at all because both assertions are wrong, but both assertions are implied by a poor wording of the rules.

[DanyBallon]

I would say give all subraces their own thing, but I'm crazy like that.

I like the idea of linking racial abilities to inspiration but there is only so much you can do with it.

Maybe to use an ability you have to spend inspiration, even if it isn't normally a situation you could spend your inspiration. This would make all racial champion features more DM dependent but you could make them a bit stronger.

All backgrounds can be justified via role play, that's the beauty of role play. Urchin, Sailor, Acolyte, and Criminal all have easy to role play scenarios.

I guess all backgrounds can be role played, but it seems to be more difficult roleplaying a character starting as a noble, gaining a street urchin background. Not impossible, but far less easy to come up with a good story.

As for inspiration, giving Champion an inspiration point each day (and later once per rest) would remove part of the DM dependence, and would still allow the Champion to make use of inspiration gained for roleplaying, etc. as well as letting him the possibility to give it's inspiration point to an ally. Champion are a source of inspiration after all :smallwink:

[TopCheese]

I guess all backgrounds can be role played, but it seems to be more difficult roleplaying a character starting as a noble, gaining a street urchin background. Not impossible, but far less easy to come up with a good story.

As for inspiration, giving Champion an inspiration point each day (and later once per rest) would remove part of the DM dependence, and would still allow the Champion to make use of inspiration gained for roleplaying, etc. as well as letting him the possibility to give it's inspiration point to an ally. Champion are a source of inspiration after all :smallwink:

Noble to street urchin? The story of Aladin had Princess Jasmine on this track and people tend to love that's story. There is also the Prince and the Pauper story. Or even a noble who was sickened by how horrible the nobility have treated peoe so she/he helps out the poor as much as they can. The noble stays a noble (though may lose prestige) but can travel through the city as good as anyone. :)

1 inspiration per session is how I'm starting to do it. You can't stock up on them but at the beginning of the game everyone gets +1.

You must take a short rest before you can use it, if you used an inspiration near the end of the last session (say if the battle continues into the next fight).

Inspiration is a mechanic that they really really overlooked.

[djreynolds]

I think its overly complex.

Which defeats the purpose of the Champion.

I'f you want to buff the Champ, and I don't think it's needed, just give them a few static bonuses (weapon specialisation with a weapon they can swap out, some Cha skill buff for being awesome and renouned and make the athlete thing give them expertise in either athletics or acrobatics).

Deals with buffs to all 3 pillars, and doesn't mess with the core draw of the class.

I think I see where you are coming from.

I still like the bonus Noble or Folk Hero feat as a bonus, like you've upgraded your social class. Like an athlete in college becoming pro does.

I do like the athletic and acrobatics expertise, a champion should be able to do crazy Olympic type stuff.

And what could be cool, is a publicity thing. Everyone loves to tout hero's and to see them fall. Maybe a charisma bonus and negative wrap around that. A champion who is denounced in public, perhaps performs with a chip on his shoulder. Or an older champion resorts to cheating.

I don't mind the generic chassis of the champion, but I would like some roleplaying.

On weapon specialization, I didn't want to give a bonus to hit. I was hoping for a bonus to damage though that can be switched out.

Combat expertise is sorely missed.

I actually like the idea of the inspiration points. It could be called something else and they could be situational.

What about a bonus to fighting bosses if there is a crowd present? Like in movies when armies stop fighting because the champions are in it now, and everyone stops and watches. The idea of a charisma skill is cool. Paladin's ( although they can be) aren't really the only cavalier types, and if they are they have mission. But a fighter has no mission, but the fight.

You could have a vanity bonus, where if a crowd is watching you can do things that Olympic like and you get a bonus to hit or damage. Showing off bonus, but you also roll for disadvantage because its not the smartest thing to do.
Failure negative, if you fail a roll to do something deemed Olympic, the next time you try it again its at disadvantage.
A fear bonus, because you were defeated by a certain type of creature and you've lost confidence.

Yeah this could be good. Guys like Hercules had a lot of ego. Ego bonuses and self-conscious negatives.

I feel barbarian has really taken up the serious minded battler along with the paladin, battle-master reminds me of Achilles and Samurai and aspiring generals. But the champion is to bland, they just need a little nudge. Glory hunters or racial home-land defender. Famous

I know we hear soldier, but a champion was soldier, but now he is a hero of soldiers. Charisma bonuses could definitely fit in.

[DanyBallon]

I kinda like the idea of using Inspiration Point, instead of creating a new ability. It make the points gain by the Champion being useful for other thing than just powering his abilities, and the Champion get more benefits from good roleplaying or any other reason the DM gives Inspiration Points.

Surfing on the ideas proposed in this thread. A Gladiator martial archetype, where you get to spend an action to get the crowd to cheer for you and on your next turn you get advantage to all your attacks, at 3rd. Giving them the ability once per rest to adapt their fighting style to the weapons they'll use (mechanically allowing to change your fighting style once per rest) at 10th. Allowing them to tripple the critical damage at 18th.

7th level ability could that they add their Con mod to AC when wearing light, medium or piece meal armor.

And I have no idea for 15th level ability :smallbiggrin:

[djreynolds]

People don't want magic. I get it. Fighters always do it with grit. But champions just don't get options. It's all reactive. I'd rather you told me I got a critical hit once per short rest.

I like the idea of grit, inspiration, cutting words. I know you can multiclass. But I'm looking to set apart the champion. I think the racial idea, though a little boring and forcing players to play something already done can be boring. Oh the elven Archer, who would've guessed. But racial champion has merit.

But this idea of a personality based power could be cool. Moxy, ego, vanity, self loathing, grudge holding. This could work.

The champion archetype comes off as Everyman and not a champion. I could see buffs based on charisma and their durations based on intelligence. Sometimes style is, like pro fighters, is as important as substance. And I like the inner struggle between "passion and glory"

Keep the ideas coming

[PotatoGolem]

I don't think the extra background makes sense as applied to skills. Take Noble, for example. I could see a newly-elevated noble getting the feature, because people don't want to piss off a noble (although in that case, a noble who's deposed should lose the feature). I don't see why a newly-elevated noble all of a sudden retroactively studied history and oratory his whole life like he would have if he'd been born a noble. Background skills are about what you did your whole life before becoming an adventurer, so it doesn't make sense that you are just given them on promotion.

[djreynolds]

Let us revisit this shall we.

Warning: This not a prestige class but could be viewed as such. Its just a brainstorm and I'm sure you'll bash it but I think its neat.

Racial Champions. Every race has champions known that fight and his people emulate that. Legolas inspires other wood elves to be great archers, etc

A lot of players are bored with the champion, and I can agree. I play a champion, actually two of them, and I like them. I'm also currently playing a rogue and a wizard. But what people want out of the champion is something unique. So I have some proposed tweaks. At levels 3, 6, and 14 you will get something and lose something.

At level 3, if you did not take the soldier's background you may do so now in addition to your prior. If you did take the soldier's background, you get also now the Noble or Folk Hero background. Half-Elves get an additional background but no skills.

A champion should have some renown and popularity. I only chose Noble or Folk Hero, mainly because the skills are not physical ones, i.e. stealth, athletics. They give you some social stuff

At level 6, in place of your bonus feat you may choose a racial class feature.

Wood Elves- Open sky_you're people are known for their archers and your champions are the reason why. You must have the archery style, in place of a feat your bows deal an extra 1d2. Short bow is now 1d8, and long bow is 1d10- you lose this in the underdark, inside.

Drow- Noble you are a schooled fighter and now have a home in a great house, when in a dungeon, in a closed area, such as a building, or the underdark, you may use levitate once per day like a noble "might"

Folk Hero- you have been under the sun, you no longer fear it nor suffer disadvantage from it

High Elf- your people have mastered the long sword, when using a long sword with one or two-hands you may add the finesse quality to it, if you use a shield or an off-hand weapon you lose this benefit.

Eladrin- you get an extra use of misty step once a day, but this use can only be used to move in and attack, not retreat

Halflings- Hamstringer-people ignore you and pay for it. You small size is an advantage, when moving in combat and you draw an attack of opportunity against you, you may make a bonus attack and if it hits you adversary that is larger than you suffers half movement for the rest of the turn if the fail an intelligence save, d/c 8+int + prof. The movement penalty does not stack but can be done again to the same opponent

Gnomes- You can't get me- they're always getting pushed around, but not their champions, if you are shoved or grappled you can make an athletics check double your proficiency and add your highest ability modifier to its roll.

Half-orc- when using a weapon with a heavy property you add an additional critical die in addition to the one you get.

Goliath- when you grapple an opponent you can bear hug them for a number rounds equal to you con modifier, they can still escape you, and you damage them your strength modifier each round until they break free, your bear hug is up and they are subdued.

Human- Noble background -armored cavalry is devastating, if you have the mounted combatant feat, you deal an extra 1d2 with the following weapons-scimitar, flail, and war pick

Folk Hero- any weapon similar to a simple farmer's tool you add 1d2 to it base damage- you've imagined fighting dragons while forgetting your chores, trident (pitch fork), hand axe (chopping wood), ideas would be great

Dwarves- they know battle axes, warhammers, hand axes, and light hammers and every weapon has spikes and blades and blunt areas on them- when using these weapons they can after striking change the damage type of the weapon- bludgeoning, slashing and piercing.

half elf- choose your human or elf lineage.

14th level substitute a feat for a racial class feature, but you had to take the previous feat

Wood elf- open sky- when outside, not underground or in a building, you deal an additional +2 flat damage to your bow strikes

High Elf- when using a long sword two-handed and you have the GWS and GWM feat, you can use the GWM feat and ignore the heavy property section of the feat

Eladrin- you gain a 3rd use of misty step per day, this can be used for retreat

Drow - Noble when levitating, 3x's a day, and you have a free off hand you can fire your hand crossbow from above and if you hit, your damage is auto-crit, once per short rest

Folk Hero- You shouldn't be here- when ambushing a party in the underdark or dungeon and you have in your party at least two drow of equal or greater level and you have surprise and initiative, all damage is auto-cit for that surprise round

Dwarf- when using a battle axe or warhammer, if you hit you gain an bonus attack with that weapon for 1d6+strength modifier for piercing damage

Halfling- David and Goliath- a Halfling once per short rest, and using a thrown finesse weapon, sling, or bow can land a special shot that if hits blinds an opponent for 1 turn save charisma, d/c 8+ wisdom + prof-if you took the tavern brawler feat you can use this with a beer mug or rock or whatever is considered light and finesse

Goliath- if you bear hug someone and they cannot escape_ you can throw them feet + strength modifier and they land prone

Human Noble- you add again an additional 1d2 to the scimitar, flail, and war pick now 1d4
Folk hero- you add 1d2 to all simple weapons now and to farmer type weapons you add 1d4

Gnome- I got you now_ if you are grappled, you still retain your previous ability to break free, but now cause damage from scrapping and wriggling each round equal to your athletics skills check which is still double proficiency

Half Orc- you can use the GWM feat for throwing spears and javelins

[Vogonjeltz]

Let us revisit this shall we.

Warning: This not a prestige class but could be viewed as such. Its just a brainstorm and I'm sure you'll bash it but I think its neat.

Racial Champions. Every race has champions known that fight and his people emulate that. Legolas inspires other wood elves to be great archers, etc

A lot of players are bored with the champion, and I can agree. I play a champion, actually two of them, and I like them. I'm also currently playing a rogue and a wizard. But what people want out of the champion is something unique. So I have some proposed tweaks. At levels 3, 6, and 14 you will get something and lose something.

At level 3, if you did not take the soldier's background you may do so now in addition to your prior. If you did take the soldier's background, you get also now the Noble or Folk Hero background. Half-Elves get an additional background but no skills.

A champion should have some renown and popularity. I only chose Noble or Folk Hero, mainly because the skills are not physical ones, i.e. stealth, athletics. They give you some social stuff

At level 6, in place of your bonus feat you may choose a racial class feature.

Wood Elves- Open sky_you're people are known for their archers and your champions are the reason why. You must have the archery style, in place of a feat your bows deal an extra 1d2. Short bow is now 1d8, and long bow is 1d10- you lose this in the underdark, inside.

Drow- Noble you are a schooled fighter and now have a home in a great house, when in a dungeon, in a closed area, such as a building, or the underdark, you may use levitate once per day like a noble "might"

Folk Hero- you have been under the sun, you no longer fear it nor suffer disadvantage from it

High Elf- your people have mastered the long sword, when using a long sword with one or two-hands you may add the finesse quality to it, if you use a shield or an off-hand weapon you lose this benefit.

Eladrin- you get an extra use of misty step once a day, but this use can only be used to move in and attack, not retreat

Halflings- Hamstringer-people ignore you and pay for it. You small size is an advantage, when moving in combat and you draw an attack of opportunity against you, you may make a bonus attack and if it hits you adversary that is larger than you suffers half movement for the rest of the turn if the fail an intelligence save, d/c 8+int + prof. The movement penalty does not stack but can be done again to the same opponent

Gnomes- You can't get me- they're always getting pushed around, but not their champions, if you are shoved or grappled you can make an athletics check double your proficiency and add your highest ability modifier to its roll.

Half-orc- when using a weapon with a heavy property you add an additional critical die in addition to the one you get.

Goliath- when you grapple an opponent you can bear hug them for a number rounds equal to you con modifier, they can still escape you, and you damage them your strength modifier each round until they break free, your bear hug is up and they are subdued.

Human- Noble background -armored cavalry is devastating, if you have the mounted combatant feat, you deal an extra 1d2 with the following weapons-scimitar, flail, and war pick

Folk Hero- any weapon similar to a simple farmer's tool you add 1d2 to it base damage- you've imagined fighting dragons while forgetting your chores, trident (pitch fork), hand axe (chopping wood), ideas would be great

Dwarves- they know battle axes, warhammers, hand axes, and light hammers and every weapon has spikes and blades and blunt areas on them- when using these weapons they can after striking change the damage type of the weapon- bludgeoning, slashing and piercing.

half elf- choose your human or elf lineage.

14th level substitute a feat for a racial class feature, but you had to take the previous feat

Wood elf- open sky- when outside, not underground or in a building, you deal an additional +2 flat damage to your bow strikes

High Elf- when using a long sword two-handed and you have the GWS and GWM feat, you can use the GWM feat and ignore the heavy property section of the feat

Eladrin- you gain a 3rd use of misty step per day, this can be used for retreat

Drow - Noble when levitating, 3x's a day, and you have a free off hand you can fire your hand crossbow from above and if you hit, your damage is auto-crit, once per short rest

Folk Hero- You shouldn't be here- when ambushing a party in the underdark or dungeon and you have in your party at least two drow of equal or greater level and you have surprise and initiative, all damage is auto-cit for that surprise round

Dwarf- when using a battle axe or warhammer, if you hit you gain an bonus attack with that weapon for 1d6+strength modifier for piercing damage

Halfling- David and Goliath- a Halfling once per short rest, and using a thrown finesse weapon, sling, or bow can land a special shot that if hits blinds an opponent for 1 turn save charisma, d/c 8+ wisdom + prof-if you took the tavern brawler feat you can use this with a beer mug or rock or whatever is considered light and finesse

Goliath- if you bear hug someone and they cannot escape_ you can throw them feet + strength modifier and they land prone

Human Noble- you add again an additional 1d2 to the scimitar, flail, and war pick now 1d4
Folk hero- you add 1d2 to all simple weapons now and to farmer type weapons you add 1d4

Gnome- I got you now_ if you are grappled, you still retain your previous ability to break free, but now cause damage from scrapping and wriggling each round equal to your athletics skills check which is still double proficiency

Half Orc- you can use the GWM feat for throwing spears and javelins

A quick language and balance edit follows. But baseline assessment is that most of these are worth far less than an ASI or Feat, many of them key off having a feat, effectively making them have 2 feat requirements and a racial requirement (see: Orc 14 ability which requires Orc 6 and the GWM feat!) Relative to each other, the abilities are totally imbalanced. Gnome 14 is insane compared to Orc 14, Wood Elf 6+14, or Human 6+14.

Eladrin 6/14: Retreat/in Attack are undefined in this game. Provide a more concrete definition. How is one to distinguish? Why does this even make sense?

Wood Elf 6, this seems flatly inferior to sharpshooter.
Wood Elf 14, bow strikes? Clarify: Is this to ranged attacks made with a bow, or improvised weapon melee attacks with a bow?

Drow 6, unclear why a Fighter would even want this, and it's not clear why this is thematic. Why is the word might surrounded by quotes?
Drow don't fear the sun, they just grew up in an environment without it. Recommend refluffing as something like: Daytime Raider: Having spent so much time above ground, you've adjusted and no longer have the sunlight sensitivity trait.
Drow 14, Noble is confusing: 3x a day, once per short rest? Off hand? That's not even a game term.
Restate as: While levitating, if you make a ranged weapon attack with a Hand Crossbow and hit a creature who is below you, the attack is a critical hit. Once you have used this feature you must finish a short or long rest to use it again. This feature can be used no more than three times per day.
Folk Hero - There's no such thing as the surprise round anymore. A particular creature might be surprised, but there's no round. Also 2 drow of equal or greater level? So it's useless if you're the highest level drow?
Recommend revising to use the language from the Assassin 3 feature: "Any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit."

High Elf 6, this should be about the character, not their people. i.e. "You have mastered the longsword", as opposed to "your people have"
High Elf 14, flavorful.

Halfling 6, Restate as: "Hamstringer - when you leave the reach of an opponent you may use a bonus action to make an attack with a slashing melee weapon against that opponent. If the attack hits, and the target is larger than you, they must make an Intelligence saving throw against DC of 8 + Int Modifier + Proficiency or have their speed halved until the end of the round. This slowing effect can only apply once per opponent per round.
Questions for clarification: Why does this apply just on leaving reach? Why not only if the subject fails to use their reaction to make an opportunity attack? Why an intelligence saving throw? Why the need to specify that it can only apply once to a target when it only lasts 1 round and requires the bonus action to attempt?
Halfling 14, When taking the attack action and attacking with a thrown finesse weapon, sling, or bow you can use a bonus action to aim the attack for a creatures eyes. If the attack hits, the creature must make a charisma (what?!) saving throw or be blinded until the end of your next turn. The DC for this saving throw is 8+Wisdom+Proficiency. If you have the tavern brawler feat, you may make this attack with a mug, rock, or any improvised thrown weapon that is considered light and finesse.
Comment: This second feature is inconsistent (tavern brawler weapons can also be light, whereas normal weapons can not?) It also seems overpowered to allow for blindness attempts on all bow attacks.

Gnome 6, Needs clarification: Is this intended for use in opposed checks to avoid being shoved or grappled? As written it sounds like it only applies after one has been grappled or shoved (even though the latter makes no sense at all). Rephrase as: When rolling in contests to avoid being grappled or shoved, double your Athletics or Acrobatics proficiency if it applies or add your proficiency if you lack those skills, and you may choose to apply any ability modifier in place of strength or dexterity.
Gnome 14, When you attempt to break free from a grapple, you deal damage to the opponent equal to your Athletics or Acrobatics check. As with (name of Gnome 6 ability) you may use any ability for this check. Double your proficiency bonus, or if non-proficient add your proficiency bonus.
Comment: Relative to the others, this one is kind of ridiculous potentially dealing 1d20+17 damage.

Half-Orc 6, restate as "When using a Heavy weapon, Savage Attacks now allows two additional rolls, instead of one."
Half-Orc 14; takes up a feat slot to mildly expand a feat? That's it? Compare this to Gnome 14, or even Gnome 6.

Goliath 6, It's unclear what this is saying near the end. How about restating as: "Giants Embrace: At the end of your turn, if you have an opponent grappled, deal damage to them equal to your strength modifier (minimum of 1). Comment: This seems overly powerful to me, it requires no action at all to maintain a grapple, and none to deal the damage. Grappling does very little to interfere with the combat capability of a number of Fighter builds. Instead, I'd propose that this requires a bonus action to deal the damage, or allows the Goliath to deal damage as a reaction if the opponents turn ends with them still grappled.
Goliath 14, clarify as: If you begin your turn grappling a creature, you may use your action to try and throw the creature as long as they do not exceed your weight capacity. Make a Strength (Athletics) check opposed by the creature's strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If you win, you throw the creature 10 feet and they land prone, taking 1d4 bludgeoning damage.

Human 6, Kind of screws over the noble because of the feat requirement.
Noble - Knightly Arts: While mounted, you may re-roll any weapon damage die for an attack made with a Lance, Flail, War Pick, or Long Sword.
Folk Hero - Peasant Fighter: May add proficiency to any farm implement used as an improvised weapon.
Human 14,
Noble - Weak, change to: You may re-roll up to two damage weapon damage dice for an attack made with a Lance, Flail, War Pick, or Long Sword.
Folk Hero - Given the suggested change to 6, change this to: When you hit a creature with a farming implement as an improvised weapon they must make a strength saving throw or be knocked prone. DC 8+strength modifier+proficiency.

Dwarves 6 - When using any Axe or Hammer, may choose to deal Bludgeoning, Slashing, or Piercing damage.
Comment: This is weak even relative to the others, definitely not worth an ASI or feat.
Dwarves 14 - Restate as: If you hit a creature with a Battle Axe or Warhammer you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the spiked tip of the weapon. The weapon's damage die for this attack is a d6 + strength modifier, and the attack deals piercing damage.
Comment: This is equivalent to Polearm Master. Not particularly flavorful or interesting.

[Specter]

I don't agree with most of this, but it got me thinking that a champion could perhaps at level 3 double the benefit of his Fighting Style: Dueling would give +4 damage, Defense +2AC, and so on.

[djreynolds]

Imagine an orc army coming upon a Halfling village, on a hill stands the village champion. A little Halfling with a sling and short sword calling out the orc champion.

Perhaps its Achilles calling out another Greek warrior.

Gamers say the champion is for new players, and they are right and it sucks. It needs to be reworked. I have never seen so many polearm masters in my life. I want to see a dwarf excel in using a battle axe or war hammer.

I do not like redundancies, if all elves are good with a longsword and bow, shouldn't the elf champion be awesome, Legolas Style.

I'm looking to see what the champion of a little gnome burrow looks like.

I had proposed this long before SCAG came out. I'm looking for stuff for each race that sets it apart. It could replace remarkable athlete.

The battlemaster has a cool vibe to it, as fighters go. And the EK is cool, I like the scout and monster hunter and cavalier.

The came out with the bladesinger and battlerager.

I want to see what does a gnome champion look like, did he come from the street, or farm, or castle or the army.
What would he do in combat?

How about instead of giving out improved critical to all weapons, you could choose improved critical for some weapons like say a dwarf and war hammer and battle axe, but you would get more.

I just spit balling here, nothing written in stone. Give me ideas and I will edit.

I only proposed levels 6 and 14, because this is where the extra feats lay and players might be inclined to stay champion. It doesn't have to be there and it can be in addition.

[MrStabby]

My personal view is that the best way to do this might just to create a whole bunch of racial feats.

This open it up to other classes but they have fewer feats, so it is tougher for them. Best for the rogue and fighter classes.

[djreynolds]

My personal view is that the best way to do this might just to create a whole bunch of racial feats.

This open it up to other classes but they have fewer feats, so it is tougher for them. Best for the rogue and fighter classes.

I like, but the majority were for something that wasn't a feat.

You think and have an image of an orc or Goliath barbarian or half elf paladin but what images do champions of these "peoples" invoke?

[SillyPopeNachos]

In 3.5 there was a saying that feats are no substitute for class features, and this is still partially true in 5e. What is much more of note is that backgrounds are no substitute for feats, let alone class features. Backgrounds mostly just give additional proficiencies, which a couple feats do with skills and languages, but no one takes them because additional skills/tool kits/languages can be learned via gold/downtime, making them not worth feat slots. This is also why the Champion will end up with nothing unique due to additional backgrounds. Racial features, on the other hand, are a different story considering most give you MORE of a stat boost than an ABI, and some give downright powerful abilities such as darkvision and flight (class features in varied examples such as the spell darkvision, and paladin/sorcerer/spell flight, etc.).

[MrStabby]

In 3.5 there was a saying that feats are no substitute for class features, and this is still partially true in 5e. What is much more of note is that backgrounds are no substitute for feats, let alone class features. Backgrounds mostly just give additional proficiencies, which a couple feats do with skills and languages, but no one takes them because additional skills/tool kits/languages can be learned via gold/downtime, making them not worth feat slots. This is also why the Champion will end up with nothing unique due to additional backgrounds. Racial features, on the other hand, are a different story considering most give you MORE of a stat boost than an ABI, and some give downright powerful abilities such as darkvision and flight (class features in varied examples such as the spell darkvision, and paladin/sorcerer/spell flight, etc.).

So champions can take a feat to add their class abilities again? A high elf gains Dex, Int and a second cantrip. An Orc gets two uses per day of the not dying thing, double the bonus damage on the critical and Con and Str?

It is thematic but maybe a bit good? Maybe they are entitled to take a feat that gives them their non stat based class features a second time and a maximum of +1 to each racial bonus stat? It would be in theme for being the Orciest Orc out there or the Elfiest elf and would be a small power-up over the normal ASI.

[SillyPopeNachos]

So champions can take a feat to add their class abilities again? A high elf gains Dex, Int and a second cantrip. An Orc gets two uses per day of the not dying thing, double the bonus damage on the critical and Con and Str?

It is thematic but maybe a bit good? Maybe they are entitled to take a feat that gives them their non stat based class features a second time and a maximum of +1 to each racial bonus stat? It would be in theme for being the Orciest Orc out there or the Elfiest elf and would be a small power-up over the normal ASI.

My post contained no suggestion, only observation.

[MrStabby]

My post contained no suggestion, only observation.

Ah, my apologies I thought you were implying that. I actualy thought it was a good suggestion.