OOTS #1007 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Lord Raziere]

ah, the chaotic evil philosophy embodied: "you are who you are on your worst day, anything else is a lie"

this is why we have lawful good types, to say "NO!" to that noise, cause people are anything but that. My worst day is the day I'm the least myself.

but yeah, things aren't going well. we will need the cavalry or some other form of intervention possibly divine, sometime soon.

[Temotei]

There was a weird thing going on with the comic number (and ability to look at more recent comics than 866). Looks like it's resolved, though. Kind of funny that the name of 866 is Complex Math. I thought it was a joke at first.

And...well. :smallfrown:

[CrispyCriminal]

Aggh, I swear durkula is channeling negative feelings. Freaking contagious.

[eilandesq]

If the Harm spell took Roy down to 1 hit point (implied by the rules of the spell and his heavy lidded appearance), that 2 level drain just took Roy down to -9 HP, just short of dead.

Let whoever is about to rescue Roy act now, or they'll be fighting Durkula over his corpse.

[Alex Warlorn]

We are all our days.

[Wonton]

I've said this in every one of the last 4-5 comic threads, but... this looks bad. This looks really, really bad. The way that comic started, I thought it was gonna lead to an epic "Durkon-asserts-his-willpower-and-breaks-free-of-control" moment, even for a second... but nope, it went in the opposite direction. At the present, it really doesn't seem like there's any hope for the good guys. :smallsigh:

Really not sure what can save them now. Belkar? V? Tarquin? Xykon? Thor?

[The DeathKnight]

Poor Durkon, i wonder if this is where he will start manipulating Durkula from within.

[Alex Warlorn]

ah, the chaotic evil philosophy embodied: "you are who you are on your worst day, anything else is a lie"

this is why we have lawful good types, to say "NO!" to that noise, cause people are anything but that. My worst day is the day I'm the least myself.

but yeah, things aren't going well. we will need the cavalry or some other form of intervention possibly divine, sometime soon.

Yes, screw the vampire's spiel. We are all our days.

[Mike Havran]

That was kinda pointlessly cruel from Hurak, throwing Durkon out without a farewell to his Ma. Also, nice insight into how the vampires are formed.

[Quild]

Harsh one. Nice to see the art upgrade on a scene we already knew in part.

HPoH's bluff is terrible. How can it work?

[Aran Thule]

Isn't that 6 levels drained so far... not good

[Seto]

Also, nice insight into how the vampires are formed.

I don't know. This is basically how Buffyverse vampires work (and I myself think it makes sense), but HpoH might simply be telling Durkon what will crush his spirit the most. Doesn't have to be true. Especially the "another dwarf might have done the opposite" part.

[warmachine]

Guilt indicates you haven't thought about something properly. Durkon can hate his colleagues who threw him out whilst knowing his race, clan and even clan leader did not decide his eviction and are therefore blameless. Being a good person doesn't mean you can't hate injustice and the unjust. Bloody fictional, guilt-based religions.

[eilandesq]

Harsh one. Nice to see the art upgrade on a scene we already knew in part.

HPoH's bluff is terrible. How can it work?

Because the most effective lie is one that includes an element of truth. Durkon *has* been (completely justifiably) enraged at times at how he was treated by his people. He'd have to literally be a saint *not* to have had moments like that. The HPoH is using that simple fact along with Durkon's growing despair over how badly things are going to manipulate him. Overcoming that manipulation--as we all know he will--will be Durkon's greatest accomplishment as a hero.

[hroþila]

That was kinda pointlessly cruel from Hurak, throwing Durkon out without a farewell to his Ma.
As we already knew, "immediately" doesn't mean "later today".

[Velazquez]

All these years, finally first page and the comic strip is so sad I cannot even celebrate.:smalleek:
Btw ,we are who we are, not only in our worse days but also in our best days, too.I still hope that these days will help Durkon gain control.

[Sith_Happens]

DAAAAAYUUM. Way to lay it on thick, Durkula.:smalleek:


HPoH's bluff is terrible. How can it work?

The +8 racial bonus probably helps.:smalltongue:

[Windscion]

This also explains why HPoH identifies itself as Durkon. It is literally formed out of his darkest parts.

[busterswd]

Ow, the feels. Well done, Giant.

Granted the vampire's putting the emotional mickey on Durkon to paint him as black as possible, but this is something about his past he clearly hasn't confronted yet, which is why it's so effective.

[Swordsmith]

I love how the Giant twists the entire basis of the D&D alignment system, rejecting it in favor of underlying philosophies. Here, A being created by a dark goddess to perfectly fit into dark underlying thoughts, I dunno, it just brings a tear to my eye.

[Laurana]

Great strip there! Durkon is finally becoming alive, countering the one his own friends could not recognize from any other dwarf (like in the sending part in Old Blind Pete's house).

So Roy is dead again. It's really time for the Belkar cavalry to step in!

[Fosco the Swift]

Fantastic comic as always Giant, every morning one of the first things I do is check for an update, but you're crueler than Durkula to keep us hanging like this :smallwink:

I still think it's Durkon who'll save the day. I keep getting the feeling that it'll be a quiet, soul wrenching argument that Durkon says that'll save Roy. Durkula may have simply been messing with him when he said that it's possible to turn a vampire against Hel, but that's the scenario I'm holding out for.

[Roland Itiative]

So, Durkon never even got to say farewell to his mother when he was kicked out... Depending on what happened to her in those 20 years, the whole death and destruction shebang might not be entirely Durkula's fault when it happens. For the first time now I fear for Durkon's moral integrity.

[Gwin]

Oh man, thats really touching :smallfrown:

[Emperordaniel]

That was kinda pointlessly cruel from Hurak, throwing Durkon out without a farewell to his Ma. Also, nice insight into how the vampires are formed.

The prophecy stated that Durkon would bring death and destruction to the dwarves "when next he returned home", which High Priest Hurak interpreted to mean when he returned to his physical home - thus, he couldn't let Durkon say farewell to Sigdi.

[Agnostik]

I don't know whether to be surprised or saddened. Think I'm gonna go with "Ouch".

[Malfarian]

Beautiful artwork, well done!

[Canuck617]

Dang, that is rough. This is really starting to turn into one of those "darkest before the dawn" scenarios. (I hope.) Very nicely done, Giant!

[SterlingAvenger]

Come on Durkon, an moment of justifiable anger over an injustice done to you is no more veil than a moment of anger over an injustice done to another. It all comes down to how you express if and from memory you've handled it by being the best dwarf you can be. Don't evil you nullify all the good you've done.

[Grey Pilgrim]

Ooooh, this is so evil and cruel and tense. Thanks for another great update, Giant.

Edit: Well, second page is nice as well I guess.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Oh wow. Nice replay of what was written to be humorous before, and then all of this? The church treated him horribly, and Durkon has every right to be furious. And resentful. But he never would have acted on it.
This isn't good.

[Puschkin]

Wasn't Roy down to 1 HP? Why another level drain at that point?

At least, this has to be the last update before the cavalry arrives. The fight is over and Durkon as been shut, we also have no other subplot going on, so the next update WILL be the (devine) intervention, yes? Oh wait - next strip could be switching to what Team Evil is doing now ...

[Emperordaniel]

Wasn't Roy down to 1 HP? Why another level drain at that point?

At least, this has to be the last update before the cavalry arrives. The fight is over and Durkon as been shut, we also have no other subplot going on, so the next update WILL be the (devine) intervention, yes? Oh wait - next strip could be switching to what Team Evil is doing now ...

You don't die when drained to 0 HP - you die when you reach -10. If Roy was at 1 HP in the previous strip, he'd be at -9 (and possibly falling, unless Roy manages to stabilize) from Durkon's newest level drain now, making him literally a poke away from death. Even if someone comes in to rescue Roy, they'd have to be careful not to trip over Roy, lest they accidentally kill him.

[MarcusMc]

c'mon Durkon! I feel like it has to be in his (tied) hands to resolve this, and I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to see how this plays out. :smalleek: Great writing, Giant!!

[Filippo]

I concurr, 1 hp, 2 level drain (-5 hp each) = -9 and I love the Giant for still making poetry out of the smallest rules... and then again I hate him for the breath killing cliffanger... and then again love him for the amazing work on poor, poor Durkon and all the injunstice he suffered...while still remaining "good" in the end (possibly thanks to Roy, who accidentaly is being killed^^;;)

[factotum]

That was kinda pointlessly cruel from Hurak, throwing Durkon out without a farewell to his Ma.

From Hurak's point of view it was *necessarily* cruel. For Durkon to say goodbye to his Ma he would have to go home, and the prophecy stated "The next time he returns home he will bring death and destruction to us all". Of course, *we* know that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy and that there would be no issue if Durkon hadn't been thrown out in the first place, but Hurak didn't.

[EAN]

Wasn't Roy down to 1 HP? Why another level drain at that point?

At least, this has to be the last update before the cavalry arrives. The fight is over and Durkon as been shut, we also have no other subplot going on, so the next update WILL be the (devine) intervention, yes? Oh wait - next strip could be switching to what Team Evil is doing now ...

Unless he saved and had more than 76 HP.

[Killer Angel]

Ouch, poor Durkon... and poor Roy! :smallfrown:

[Emperordaniel]

Unless he saved and had more than 76 HP.

He wouldn't have that much HP even if he saved, since he had already taken some significant damage in the fight before then.

[Kgw]

Come on Durkon, an moment of justifiable anger over an injustice done to you is no more veil than a moment of anger over an injustice done to another. It all comes down to how you express if and from memory you've handled it by being the best dwarf you can be. Don't evil you nullify all the good you've done.
I think the main problem is that Durkon has never (except that spark of rage) try to let out all this resentment: for years he felt disgusted among Humans (until he meet Roy) and he kept on pushing it down. Even in his affair with Hylga (sp?), a part of him might have said within him "Why I should I keep dwarven laws and spoil my happiness when the same dwarven laws kicked me from home?!" (in his own accent)

Also, I still don't understand why they couldn't tell him why he had to leave his home. Or saying good-bye to his mother. Surely, saying "good-bye" in the doorstep is not the same as "going back" home. But well, nobody said dwarves act logically every time.

Oh, and the "maybe another dwarf" retort is another low blow for Durkon: "It's your fault!"

[hroþila]

Of course, *we* know that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy and that there would be no issue if Durkon hadn't been thrown out in the first place, but Hurak didn't.
Well, Hurak did know that messing with a prophecy was dangerous, but some beer helped reassure him. :smallbiggrin:

[littlebum2002]

Oh Durkon, right in the feels :smallfrown:

Also, for those saying Durkon couldn't have said goodbye, having a priest go fetch Sigdi from her home to come to Durkon to tell him goodbye is totally an option and won't risk any death and/or destruction

[theinsulabot]

He wouldn't have that much HP even if he saved, since he had already taken some significant damage in the fight before then.


pretty sure he meant if Roy saved and had more then 76 HP left.

which considering all Roy's hit points isnt actually that unlikely.

[eilandesq]

Unless he saved and had more than 76 HP.

Unlikely--even aside from the previous damage he took, the "eyes half closed" artwork that was used for Roy in the last panel of #1006 generally means that the character in question is either at zero HP or on the verge of it, and the Harm spell cannot take its target below 1 HP even on a failed save.

[Nawaki]

I like the details ^^ Like the armor flying towards him :D
And Durkon should know better than trusting a vampire =)

[rgrekejin]

This also explains why HPoH identifies itself as Durkon. It is literally formed out of his darkest parts.

Unless, of course, HPoH is lying about that. They are Chaotic Evil, after all.

...come on, Belkar. Show up already.


We are all our days.

The fact that this argument is being espoused by a creature we know to literally be evil incarnate makes me suspect that we're not supposed to take his arguments seriously.

[Cyber Punk]

First? :smallfrown:

Now, all I can think of is the phrase: 'Man often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it.' I always knew that by kicking Durkon out unceremoniously, the dwarves and the HPoT only made the situation worse. At best, they only bought more time.

Poor Roy. Standing a chance to die a second time, and no Durkon to rez him. That's unless Durkula plans to vampirize Roy.

[Yendor]

Ooh, I wonder if Thor's new high priestess is going to remember why she knows Durkon's name, and tell him she gave permission for him to come home. That would throw not-Durkon.

[Marp]

My feels have been hit for maximum damage. :smallfrown:


Well done, Giant.


Edit: The next comic had better be called "...And Your Best" or something like that :smallamused:. Because right now, this looks pretty bad indeed.

[AlurenDarkfire]

This is why you don't try to beat a Prophecy. More often than not, you just end up fulfilling it.
If the high priest had just been honest, it wouldn't make for as good a story, but it would've been a much cleaner resolution. And Durkon's would probably have left, anyway. After all: "Bein' a Dwarf is all about doing yer duty, even if it makes yeh miserable. *Especially* if it makes yeh miserable!"

[Emperordaniel]

Unless, of course, HPoH is lying about that. They are Chaotic Evil, after all.

...come on, Belkar. Show up already.

Vampires are NOT Always Chaotic Evil - they're simply Always Evil, with their position on the Law-Chaos axis determined by that of their host - so in Durkon's case, he's Lawful Evil.

And even the Always part might be contested, but that's a discussion for another time.

[hroþila]

Unlikely--even aside from the previous damage he took, the "eyes half closed" artwork that was used for Roy in the last panel of #1006 generally means that the character in question is either at zero HP or on the verge of it, and the Harm spell cannot take its target below 1 HP even on a failed save.
I think people might be assuming too much about the "eyes half closed" convention without enough evidence. It might just mean someone has recently taken a lot of damage, regardless of what their total HPs are. See this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0929.html) - granted, Roy is knocked out before being shththnked, rather than having his eyes half closed, but he still survives, and perhaps "eyes half closed" is simply what comes before "knocked out".

[hamishspence]

Vampires are NOT Always Chaotic Evil - they're simply Always Evil, with their position on the Law-Chaos axis determined by that of their host - so in Durkon's case, he's Lawful Evil.

Yup. Though it was different in 3.0, and possibly earlier editions as well - so I can see why that mistake was made.

[kivzirrum]

I feel like all my comments lately have been, "Poor So-and-so." Poor Durkon. Poor Roy. Poor Belkar. These have been some saaaaad comics.

HPoH isn't entirely wrong, either. Dang.

[Nawaki]

My money are on High priestess of Thor right now. She was trying to remember why Durkon Thundershield sounds familiar... perhaps there is some loophole that could allow her to act, since HPoH is the body of priest of Thor...
Than again I think most of us wants Belkar to the rescue :D
But yeah ^^ seems pretty bad right now.

[rgrekejin]

Vampires are NOT Always Chaotic Evil - they're simply Always Evil, with their position on the Law-Chaos axis determined by that of their host - so in Durkon's case, he's Lawful Evil.

And even the Always part might be contested, but that's a discussion for another time.

Isn't Hel Chaotic Evil? I could have sworn she was, in which case her High Priest would have to be at least Neutral Evil in order to be a Cleric of Hel, although, as the High Priest, it seems more likely that they'd be of exactly her alignment. Ah well. Disregard if we have no reason to believe Hel is Chaotic Evil.

EDIT: 3.5 Hel is Neutral Evil, so nevermind. Even if Rich's Northern Pantheon aren't the ones straight out of the book.

[Quild]

The prophecy stated that Durkon would bring death and destruction to the dwarves "when next he returned home", which High Priest Hurak interpreted to mean when he returned to his physical home - thus, he couldn't let Durkon say farewell to Sigdi.

From Hurak's point of view it was *necessarily* cruel. For Durkon to say goodbye to his Ma he would have to go home, and the prophecy stated "The next time he returns home he will bring death and destruction to us all". Of course, *we* know that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy and that there would be no issue if Durkon hadn't been thrown out in the first place, but Hurak didn't.
Durkon was already at home at this point.

When Hurak explains the thing to the brewmaster, the latter says something like "you fool, you doomed us all". For him, Durkon would never have come back home if he never left.
Hurak explains that Durkon has a grandfather that lives outside, Durkon would have left and came back at some point.

So either Sidgi still lives in Durkon's homeland, either he could have had visited her without returning home. Or she could have been sent to him as Littlebum mentionned.

[Emperordaniel]

Isn't Hel Chaotic Evil? I could have sworn she was, in which case her High Priest would have to be at least Neutral Evil in order to be a Cleric of Hel, although, as the High Priest, it seems more likely that they'd be of exactly her alignment. Ah well. Disregard if we have no reason to believe Hel is Chaotic Evil.

As far as I can remember, none of the deities have their positions on the Law-Chaos axis mentioned in either Start of Darkness or the online comics, so we only know where some gods are on the Good-Evil axis - their positions on the Law-Chaos axis we have to guess for ourselves (see: the debate on whether Thor is Chaotic or Neutral Good).

[Sylian]

Wow, this is really intense. The dwarves mountains sure look a lot fancier now compared to in "On the Origin of PCs".

[joosy]

My sardonic self imagines that Rich is going down this path just to force one of the Gods to intervene and show some of us readers what a 'deus ex machina' really is. :)

[Sylian]

Hurak explains that Durkon has a grandfather that lives outside, Durkon would have left and came back at some point.

Uncle, actually. Not that it really makes much of a difference, but yeah. Another options was "to get food".

[Lvl 2 Expert]

That's dark. Durkon's suffering just has to keep getting worse.

[Zwiebelchen]

Think about it; the prophecy clearly stated that Durkon has to come home for the prophecy to fulfil itself.
And as we all know, prophecies in fantasy literature are always true, except if we have the "you can fight your destiny" trope going on, which I doubt, as it would be extremely anticlimatic (Belkar).

This, however, leads to a logical dilemma in which there is no way for the HPoH to actually be victorious here. And considering he knows about the prophecy (as he has Durkon's memories), he knows that he can't end the world here without the prophecy being untrue.

So the question is: what is Hel really up to? Or rather, what is the HPoH up to, considering he knows something that Hel probably doesn't (the prophecy).

[hroþila]

Durkon was already at home at this point.

When Hurak explains the thing to the brewmaster, the latter says something like "you fool, you doomed us all". For him, Durkon would never have come back home if he never left.
Hurak explains that Durkon has a grandfather that lives outside, Durkon would have left and came back at some point.

So either Sidgi still lives in Durkon's homeland, either he could have had visited her without returning home. Or she could have been sent to him as Littlebum mentionned.
Maybe Durkon didn't live with his Ma anymore, but Ma's place, being his childhood house, still counted as home, or at least Hurak couldn't risk it still counting as home. There are many possible explanations here, and "Hurak was a ****" is certainly one of them too.

[Gusion]

Well there go more levels...

If the idea is to level drain him to death, that certainly would complicate and resurrection... which means it obviously won't be able to happen.

[Seto]

Think about it; the prophecy clearly stated that Durkon has to come home for the prophecy to fulfil itself.
And as we all know, prophecies in fantasy literature are always true, except if we have the "you can fight your destiny" trope going on, which I doubt, as it would be extremely anticlimatic (Belkar).

This, however, leads to a logical dilemma in which there is no way for the HPoH to actually be victorious here. And considering he knows about the prophecy (as he has Durkon's memories), he knows that he can't end the world here without the prophecy being untrue.

So the question is: what is Hel really up to? Or rather, what is the HPoH up to, considering he knows something that Hel probably doesn't (the prophecy).

Unless you loosely define "home" as "northern lands", which he's in.

[Ingus]

Ow, wow. This is very good storytelling.

Also, I see in there a small reference to one of my favourite comics (one bad day).

I still believe that Durkon would save the day. But this time I feel that, if I'm correct, I wuold spoil next panels to all other readers. So..

Let's just wait and see.

[Lathund]

Holy feces, that one hit home. Excellent dialogue in this one.

Also, a few people said that it was cruel that the High Priest didn't let him say goodbye to his mother, to which the following people replied:


The prophecy stated that Durkon would bring death and destruction to the dwarves "when next he returned home", which High Priest Hurak interpreted to mean when he returned to his physical home - thus, he couldn't let Durkon say farewell to Sigdi.


From Hurak's point of view it was *necessarily* cruel. For Durkon to say goodbye to his Ma he would have to go home, and the prophecy stated "The next time he returns home he will bring death and destruction to us all". Of course, *we* know that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy and that there would be no issue if Durkon hadn't been thrown out in the first place, but Hurak didn't.

Which is absolutely true. Unless, of course, his mother came to him instead :p

[ChillerInstinct]

Somebody call tech support, Durkon just broke.

Roy's not looking very stable either. We thought he was in pretty rough shape last strip but an additional hit on top of that means he's only barely hanging in there.

Then again, he WAS able to block at first, so if he's given an adequate distraction-- like, say, the High Priest of Thor trying to talk Durkon down now that his anger at his banishment was said out loud-- he might be able to get one more hit in. If nothing else there's no rules stopping the HPoT from TALKING to Durkon even if it won't actually accomplish anything in the grand scheme of things, so I imagine that's what next strip will be.

[chrestomancy]

First? :smallfrown:

Now, all I can think of is the phrase: 'Man often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it.' I always knew that by kicking Durkon out unceremoniously, the dwarves and the HPoT only made the situation worse.

I appreciate your perspective. I'd like to suggest for your consideration, however, that everything was made better. Durkon's life was ruined, of course. But Roy, who had been engaged on what happened to be the most important quest in the world even though he did not know it, got the best Dwarf companion he could ever have hoped for.

The prophecy *is* self-fulfilling, or appears so at this moment; what the prophecy would have said had it not taken its own existence into account is a whole other matter. Would the snarl have destroyed everything without Durkon in the Order of the Stick? Hard to say.

But by acting in this way, it's possible that the prophecy itself is responsible for saving the world. Durkon (not HPoH) would have been unlikely to reach his true potential without the adversity his high priest put him through.

It is not over yet. If Durkon is defeated, leaves the moot in mist-form to return to his coffin, then goes on to assault his homeland, get defeated, raised, and rejoin the party for the final battle, it's possible that not only is the prophecy true but was also necessary for the salvation of everyone.

[Basha]

ah, the chaotic evil philosophy embodied: "you are who you are on your worst day, anything else is a lie"

this is why we have lawful good types, to say "NO!" to that noise, cause people are anything but that. My worst day is the day I'm the least myself.

but yeah, things aren't going well. we will need the cavalry or some other form of intervention possibly divine, sometime soon.

That's exactly what I thought about being yourself: worst Day is when you're least yourself; though I still think help (for both Roy and Durkon) is coming from inside Durkon:smallsmile:

[Lathund]

I'd like to ask Durkon a similar question to the one Alfred asked.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LstIgtkEe50

[Burner28]

Awesome character insight and great suspense- what more could you ask for?

[Emperordaniel]

Think about it; the prophecy clearly stated that Durkon has to come home for the prophecy to fulfil itself.
And as we all know, prophecies in fantasy literature are always true, except if we have the "you can fight your destiny" trope going on, which I doubt, as it would be extremely anticlimatic (Belkar).

This, however, leads to a logical dilemma in which there is no way for the HPoH to actually be victorious here. And considering he knows about the prophecy (as he has Durkon's memories), he knows that he can't end the world here without the prophecy being untrue.

So the question is: what is Hel really up to? Or rather, what is the HPoH up to, considering he knows something that Hel probably doesn't (the prophecy).

Except that Durkon never learned about the prophecy. As far as he knows, he was kicked out just for the Hel of it.

[AutomatedTeller]

Man, HPoH is brutal. That's kind of a standard way of breaking people - get them to use their own guilt about bad actions to make them think they are bad people, thus justifying doing further bad things, cause you are bad anyway. Fortunately for Durkon, he's stronger than that and he'll see through the trap eventually. It's quite unclear to me how he can see through it in a way that helps Roy, but then, I'm not writing this comic ;)

[Emperordaniel]

I'd like to ask Durkon a similar question to the one Alfred asked.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LstIgtkEe50

"I don't know. I'm Non-Fall Batman. (http://www.cracked.com/article_19056_the-15-most-unintentionally-hilarious-bootleg-toys_p2.html)"

[Rick_DW]

Wow.

I think this is one of my favorite installments of all of OOTS.

Yes, Thundershield is my favourite character.

[Quebbster]

One question that pops into my mind: Where did Durkon get his gear? He's wearing a robe when he's thrown out, then a few days later he has his armor, hammer and shield. Did he wear the armor under the robes? Did he find gear lying around?

[Dracon1us]

New comic is up.

that's an home-run...straight out of the ballpark

the work of a true writer at his best

[hroþila]

One question that pops into my mind: Where did Durkon get his gear? He's wearing a robe when he's thrown out, then a few days later he has his armor, hammer and shield. Did he wear the armor under the robes? Did he find gear lying around?
They threw his gear at him immediately afterwards (you can see his armour on page 2, panel 1; read On the Origin of PCs to see his hammer hit him right in the face).

[themunck]

It is not over yet. If Durkon is defeated, leaves the moot in mist-form to return to his coffin, then goes on to assault his homeland, get defeated, raised, and rejoin the party for the final battle, it's possible that not only is the prophecy true but was also necessary for the salvation of everyone.

Which coffin? Durkula was created from a non-buried corpse using a custom made spell to hasten the process. As far as we've seen, he does not yet have a coffin to retreat to.

[Reddish Mage]

My sardonic self imagines that Rich is going down this path just to force one of the Gods to intervene and show some of us readers what a 'deus ex machina' really is. :)

A god riding in on a mech?

[Psyren]

Nice, this is the first time I've seen Dark Reprise (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkReprise) in comic form.

But hopefully Durkon realizes that not all the dwarves deserve punishing for Hurak's folly. In particular, Hel's scheme will involve turning his own mother into a spiritual chew toy too.

[Quebbster]

They threw his gear at him immediately afterwards (you can see his armour on page 2, panel 1; read On the Origin of PCs to see his hammer hit him right in the face).

Ah. It's been a while since I read OtOoPCs since I have misplaced my copy. Nevermind me then. :)

[Quild]

One question that pops into my mind: Where did Durkon get his gear? He's wearing a robe when he's thrown out, then a few days later he has his armor, hammer and shield. Did he wear the armor under the robes? Did he find gear lying around?

The answer is covered in OtOoPCs :D

[King of Nowhere]

One question that pops into my mind: Where did Durkon get his gear? He's wearing a robe when he's thrown out, then a few days later he has his armor, hammer and shield. Did he wear the armor under the robes? Did he find gear lying around?

In otoopc it shows that they also threw his gear after him immediately after throwing him out.

EDIT: ninja

[terryhe]

I've said this in every one of the last 4-5 comic threads, but... this looks bad. This looks really, really bad. The way that comic started, I thought it was gonna lead to an epic "Durkon-asserts-his-willpower-and-breaks-free-of-control" moment, even for a second... but nope, it went in the opposite direction. At the present, it really doesn't seem like there's any hope for the good guys. :smallsigh:

Really not sure what can save them now. Belkar? V? Tarquin? Xykon? Thor?

Come on, man. Think of every scene in every movie where the controlled person breaks through and overcomes that control. In the scene before it happens their head is bowed, broken just like Durkon is here. Then they rally, they declare "No!" and break through. Not sure that will happen here (I'm still in for the "nick of time" scenario).

Now can someone remind me why Durkon was thrown out by the dwarves in the first place?

[Father Miles]

I'm not sure how that last blow was not lethal... If the vampire does d6 slam damage plus 2 negative levels, then I can only see these options:
1. Roy was at 1hp, took 11-16 dmg, and will be dead in the next strip.
2. Roy saved against the Harm spell and had a few more hit points left.
3. The Giant treats negative levels the way I did, ie. -5 maximum hps per level, not 5 additional damage per level. In that case Roy took d6 damage and is dying.
4. The effect shown was an inflict light wounds and Roy is at negative hps.

[Traab]

I've said this in every one of the last 4-5 comic threads, but... this looks bad. This looks really, really bad. The way that comic started, I thought it was gonna lead to an epic "Durkon-asserts-his-willpower-and-breaks-free-of-control" moment, even for a second... but nope, it went in the opposite direction. At the present, it really doesn't seem like there's any hope for the good guys. :smallsigh:

Really not sure what can save them now. Belkar? V? Tarquin? Xykon? Thor?

Pfft, this is a standard evil villain versus the hero monologue. Durkon will come back with some motivational speech about how he isnt his worst day, he is his every day and break free. They pretty much always fail miserably at convincing the hero he is actually evil. The only time it works is when its a secondary character who will be redeemed later. But considering how long durkon has been trapped for, I expect the resurgence to happen soon. Possibly with bad consequences like durkon taking over just in time for him to get staked because the distraction let roy get free and wind up for a coup de grace.

[Seto]

4. The effect shown was an inflict light wounds and Roy is at negative hps.

That last interpretation is supported by the fact that HpoH's casting a spell (see his hand in the third panels), yes...

[Emperordaniel]

Now can someone remind me why Durkon was thrown out by the dwarves in the first place?

Durkon doesn't know, and the reason why has not yet been covered in the online comic, only the print-only book On the Origin of PCs, which details the Order of the Stick's backstories.

[CaDzilla]

So did HPoH just say that Hurak's in Hel?

[lorddrake]

So did HPoH just say that Hurak's in Hel?

No. He's just saying that, when the plans of Hel come to fruition, every dwarf - including Hurak - will go to Hel.

[MDR]

Oh Durkon, right in the feels :smallfrown:

Also, for those saying Durkon couldn't have said goodbye, having a priest go fetch Sigdi from her home to come to Durkon to tell him goodbye is totally an option and won't risk any death and/or destruction

Which actually may have happened. This is, after all, only one memory, and as far as we know three hours later she caught up with him and said goodbye. Or maybe not. Was there a strip somewhere that stated she died or he otherwise never saw her again?

[LtPowers]

This is why you don't try to beat a Prophecy. More often than not, you just end up fulfilling it.

Indeed, but why else would Odin have granted this prophecy, if not to allow his followers a chance to head it off?

Sure, they screwed it up, but the All-Father must have thought there was a chance.


Powers &8^]

[LtPowers]

Which actually may have happened. This is, after all, only one memory, and as far as we know three hours later she caught up with him and said goodbye. Or maybe not. Was there a strip somewhere that stated she died or he otherwise never saw her again?

Moreover, once he gained the ability to cast sending, why didn't he call up Mom? Or anyone else in his home clan to ask if it was okay to come home?


Powers &8^]

[d20familiar]

No. He's just saying that, when the plans of Hel come to fruition, every dwarf - including Hurak - will go to Hel.
Isn't he already dead, as per letter from Miko' purse (tower encounter with MitD)?


Moreover, once he gained the ability to cast sending, why didn't he call up Mom? Or anyone else in his home clan to ask if it was okay to come home?
Yeah, always wondered about it myself :smallconfused:

[Firest Kathon]

No. He's just saying that, when the plans of Hel come to fruition, every dwarf - including Hurak - will go to Hel.

Isn't he already dead, as per letter from Miko' purse (tower encounter with MitD)?
He is, but Durkon (and by extension the HPoH) do not know that, unless Hel told the HPoH.

[Curupira]

Wow.

I think this is one of my favorite installments of all of OOTS.

Yes, Thundershield is my favourite character.

I think you're on to to something here.

Some people have hypothesize in this forum that Belkar, Varsuuvius and the rest of the Order of the Stick wouldn't interrupt this scene because it is Roy's fight to win.

I don't think so. It is finally time to Durkon Thundershield to progress as a character and, when he does it, he'll then win this (internal) fight. Using the insight from #963 or whatever.

So, I believe the point of this arch is to raise a new Durkon Thundershield from under that unfashionable beard.

edit: AFTER this, Belkar or Roy or anyone else could turn the (external) fight, of course.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

No!

Poor Sigdi...

[ingis]

Durkon doesn't know, and the reason why has not yet been covered in the online comic, only the print-only book On the Origin of PCs, which details the Order of the Stick's backstories.

You can get a PDF version of the Origin of PCs. Its around $10 and will tell you more about the reasons why the PCs chose for the adventuring life.

[HorizonWalker]

Pfft, this is a standard evil villain versus the hero monologue. Durkon will come back with some motivational speech about how he isnt his worst day, he is his every day and break free. They pretty much always fail miserably at convincing the hero he is actually evil. The only time it works is when its a secondary character who will be redeemed later. But considering how long durkon has been trapped for, I expect the resurgence to happen soon. Possibly with bad consequences like durkon taking over just in time for him to get staked because the distraction let roy get free and wind up for a coup de grace.

Durkon, being a Cleric, has a high Wisdom score. And Durkula, being dwarf-y, has a low Charisma score.

So, sure, maybe that spiel hit Durkon pretty hard for a moment. But it's not gonna be long before Durkon comes to his senses, and says "I'm not listening to you. By your own admission, you're an evil spirit of corruption, trying to use me for purposes of evil! Get OUT... of my HEAD!"

[chrestomancy]

Which coffin? Durkula was created from a non-buried corpse using a custom made spell to hasten the process. As far as we've seen, he does not yet have a coffin to retreat to.

Good point. I'm relying on things having happened off-panel, like Durkon making a secret coffin on the airship.

It's a long time since I've read Origins (and I'm at work, out of reach of my research) so I can't remember if he's in communication with relatives. Is it possible there's a coffin for Durkon back at his home, filled with things dear to him? If, as far as his family are concerned, he just disappeared one day, they may have had a funeral for him. Unless it's within 9 miles of here, though, it's not relevant, according to SRD anyway.

[MDR]

Odd thought...

Spoiler for OtOoPCs


Sometimes when a person dies, we say he has been 'called home'. What if the prophecy is using that terminology here? Would that mean this scenario right now is the fulfillment of the prophecy? He died and now is bringing death and destruction?

[LordRahl6]

I think you're on to to something here.

Some people have hypothesize in this forum that Belkar, Varsuuvius and the rest of the Order of the Stick wouldn't interrupt this scene because it is Roy's fight to win.

I don't think so. It is finally time to Durkon Thundershield to progress as a character and, when he does it, he'll then win this (internal) fight. Using the insight from #963 or whatever.

So, I believe the point of this arch is to raise a new Durkon Thundershield from under that unfashionable beard.

I like the points that you bring up, curupira. This fight is beginning to turn into a inner struggle and character growth arc about whether or not Durkon has moved forward since Hurak ditched him out into cold (literally:smalltongue:) twenty odd years ago. Also love the new scenes with Hurak telling Durkon back then that regretted having to do that.:smallcool:

[talkamancer]

Wonderful writing Giant. I remember when this strip used to be a joke a day, now it's a cliffhanger a week.

Looking forward to the next instalment.

[happycrow]

We are all our days.

"You are what you do when it counts." -- The Masao

[pendell]

Well, this is certainly excellent storytelling.

How do I know? Because I am really, really angry at this vile little vampire-spirit. And the fact that a two-dimensional image can provoke that reaction is indeed a tribute to Rich Burlew's craft as a storyteller, to suspend my disbelief both of the artwork and of the fantasy world and be angry just as if this vampire was a real being.

That is excellent work on Rich's part.

As towards this vampire -- he DOES lie. Everything he says is a distortion of Durkon, cherrypicking the worst of Durkon while obscuring or ignoring everything else about him, and he is presented this distorted image to Durkon himself and to all his friends.

It is a lie from the pit of Hel.

"We are who we are on our worst day?" That quote makes sense in other contexts, perhaps, but the way this creature is using it, it is a lie.

If Durkon really was who he was on his worst day, he'd have started a journey of vengeance against his kin a long time ago.

Instead, he has chosen the path of obedience -- to remain in exile. He has chosen to take up with humans and other adventurers. He has healed them and cared for them even when they (as shown in the prequels) do not return that concern.

What characterizes Durkon more than anything is duty. Sure, he has angers and fears, but he has reliably and frequently chosen to rise above them -- to do the thing he ought to do rather than what some part of him wanted to do -- and you cannot ask more of any mortal being.

Durkon is not just who he was on his worst day. Durkon is who he chooses to be, moment by moment.

The vampire's judgement makes no sense in the context of OOTSworld. We've seen how the celestial realm judges (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html). If a few intemperate remarks after he's just been thrown out of his homeland when he has done nothing wrong is the darkest spot on his ledger, I daresay the Deva judging his case would not keep him out for long.

As the Deva told us, it's a lot harder to be lawful good when you're living in a meatsack and NOT a pure avatar of all that is law and good. That's why -- as I read it -- the Celestials exercise mercy in their judgements, because if they demanded deva standards of all intelligent beings, OOTS heaven would be empty. They give credit for intention as well as for results, and that's an act of mercy.

Durkon is considerably more than he is on his worst day -- but then, the vampire isn't interested in a fair judgment. He's an accuser, deliberately cherrypicking the worst of both Durkon and Dwarves in order to justify his evil nature and actions while ignoring any mitigating circumstances on the other side of the ledger. And of all the villains we have encountered in this strip, there is none I hate more. I hope he and his lies are swiftly returned to the dark hall where he was spawned.

...

Note to self: Roy has 150+ HP. It appears that he is in the process of being energy drained. If he was in single digit HP he should already be dead, right? So he must have a boatload of con HP. Even so, I reckon he's one round away from death. Somebody leaping through the window to save him would be welcome any time now.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Quebbster]

I like the theory that "bring death and destruction to us all!" means "will bring Hel's domains to the high priests!" Because that interpretation has already happened when Hel voted in the Godsmoot...

[Keltest]

Durkon appears to remember the door being more ornate than it really was. In OotPCs, its just a circle carved in the stone.

[hymie]

Typo in the first panel.

mistress' should be mistress's

[Kranerian]

Durkon appears to remember the door being more ornate than it really was. In OotPCs, its just a circle carved in the stone.

It's an art upgrade, we're supposed to pretend it was always drawn this way. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html)

[Prblanco]

I can relate to Durkon. He now believes that he's brought this fate on himself, and is now powerless to change it. It's the same thought I had when struggling with depression, and it brings a strong feeling of guilt. Makes you forget everything good you've achieved.

Durkon has been hit hard. He must realize that, while his current situation is a direct outcome of his previous choices, it's not his fault. It will take a while for him to recover, probably not in time to find a way to influence this battle.

[Emperordaniel]

Typo in the first panel.

mistress' should be mistress's

Words already ending in S can end with an apostrophe.

[Yendor]

Durkon appears to remember the door being more ornate than it really was. In OotPCs, its just a circle carved in the stone.

Art upgrade. The new version appeared in the 2014 calendar. Though that had a big fitting on the door so it could be barred closed.

[DLcygnet]

Which actually may have happened. This is, after all, only one memory, and as far as we know three hours later she caught up with him and said goodbye. Or maybe not. Was there a strip somewhere that stated she died or he otherwise never saw her again?

Durkon is a cleric with MANY sending spells. Why couldn't he just phone home whenever he felt like it?

Also, Re: Is Hel Chaotic Evil? I was under the impression from Durkon's conversation with Malack that the Death deities tended to be neutral (otherwise death would only come to one alignment or the other?). Probably also Lawful since she has been strictly following the rules for which dwarves she can claim and whether or not she has a presence at any of the Godsmoots (surely she could have hexed herself into the room without a cleric if it she felt like it). Anyway, my vote is for very frustrated Lawful Neutral. Taking advantage of legal proceedings for her own benefit seems a good fit.

[pendell]

I can relate to Durkon. He now believes that he's brought this fate on himself, and is now powerless to change it. It's the same thought I had when struggling with depression, and it brings a strong feeling of guilt. Makes you forget everything good you've achieved.


This isn't the first time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html) Durkula/Vampire has tried that. In 983, he once again tried to lay the blame for things on Durkon and the dwarves. In THAT panel, Durkon didn't fall for it and lay the blame for current issues exactly where they belonged -- on the negative energy spirit which had hijacked his body and was using it for evil purposes.

Is it a requirement for evil that it find some way to try to fob off the responsibility on good people -- and good people, all too often from an overdeveloped sense of responsibility and sensitivity to their own flaws, fall for it?


BTW, I would contend, contra others in-thread, that Durkula the Vampire-spirit is lawful evil, not chaotic evil. He certainly has been a faithful servant to the "law" he follows, which is Hel's commands.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[ravenlikestea]

I'd like to ask Durkon a similar question to the one Alfred asked.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LstIgtkEe50

Nightwing put this in an interesting perspective, that fits this situation I think. http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q495/dchamilt/whywefall_zpsyueudvbw.jpg (http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/dchamilt/media/whywefall_zpsyueudvbw.jpg.html)[/IMG]]

[happycrow]

One interesting background thought: If what Durkula is saying is true (from his perspective), this MAY be how vampiric spirits destroy their host soul's willingness to fight, reducing them to spiritual despair and thus "torpor."

Not particularly relevant atm, but it was an interesting brain-mint I just had.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I've been thinking. The vampire may be saying this to drive Durkon into despair, but he may also genuinely think that. And I don't think he's lying when he said he was shaped to fit whatever hurt and resentment Durkon may have, or have had at that time. We already know that he can't make connections between memories, or learn from their context and experience. So if his very first memories were those, then they shaped him, they filled him, they made him. The vampire is Durkon's worst day, devoid of any other context or growth or experience. And that's why he's so angry. But Durkon is more than his worst day. The vampire doesn't realize that because that's all he is.

And now I'm thinking of the hiver from A Hat Full of Sky again.

[Adeptus]

Whoa, that is seriously dark. Great writing Giant

[LordRahl6]

I've been thinking. The vampire may be saying this to drive Durkon into despair, but he may also genuinely think that. And I don't think he's lying when he said he was shaped to fit whatever hurt and resentment Durkon may have, or have had at that time. We already know that he can't make connections between memories, or learn from their context and experience. So if his very first memories were those, then they shaped him, they filled him, they made him. The vampire is Durkon's worst day, devoid of any other context or growth or experience. And that's why he's so angry. But Durkon is more than his worst day. The vampire doesn't realize that because that's all he is.

And now I'm thinking of the hiver from A Hat Full of Sky again.

And that is why this is more about Durkon's inner struggle than Roy's fight, but how that struggle is won is anyone's guess.:smallwink:

[Bulldog Psion]

And so Hurak ensured the prophecy would be fulfilled.

"A man often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it." -- Master Shifu, Kung Fu Panda :smallwink:

[Syldar]

And so Hurak ensured the prophecy would be fulfilled.

"A man often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it." -- Master Shifu, Kung Fu Panda :smallwink:

Actually, that was Oogway who said that. Shifu was the one taking said road.

[Shining Wrath]

And that's evil for you, folks. Your worst moments are your "true" ones, the good and noble ones are just you faking it for society. That's what the HPoH wants Durkon to think. That's how evil excuses itself; they are the "honest" ones.

And I see no X's in the last panel. Roy is, somehow, still in the fight.

[Voshkod]

Moreover, once he gained the ability to cast sending, why didn't he call up Mom? Or anyone else in his home clan to ask if it was okay to come home?


Powers &8^]

He did "call home." That was his favor from Paladins. The response was lost when it was eaten by the Critter in the Darkness (comic 375). Perhaps after getting no response, he just concluded there was no point.

[2.5 cats]

I'm not sure how that last blow was not lethal... If the vampire does d6 slam damage plus 2 negative levels, then I can only see these options:

Granted I play Pathfinder these days, but isn't there at least an optional rule in 3.5 that you can go down to your negative Constitution score? Roy's constitution is a lot higher than 10 (guessing 16+), which suggests, assuming he was at 1 hit point, he'd go unconscious but remain alive. Though of course he'd be helpless and one more hit would be fatal.

[jidasfire]

Also, Re: Is Hel Chaotic Evil? I was under the impression from Durkon's conversation with Malack that the Death deities tended to be neutral (otherwise death would only come to one alignment or the other?). Probably also Lawful since she has been strictly following the rules for which dwarves she can claim and whether or not she has a presence at any of the Godsmoots (surely she could have hexed herself into the room without a cleric if it she felt like it). Anyway, my vote is for very frustrated Lawful Neutral. Taking advantage of legal proceedings for her own benefit seems a good fit.

Gotta disagree with you on this count. For one thing, Malack, like his buddy Tarquin, was a pretty heavy moral equivocator and relativist. Saying a death god needn't be evil is true, but Malack's own god didn't seem particularly nice if what he was about included giant murder cathedrals. Not to mention, the idea that they wouldn't go after the evil to die is pretty fallacious on its face. It ignores the fact that, to such a god, morals may not be as important as ensuring that anyone who dies (as most everyone does) goes to their realm. Hel seems to be of this bent. She wants souls because souls equal power. She seems to abuse the dwarves in her realm, making those two dwarves in 946 struggle carry her goblet when those giants behind her could have done so easily, and talking about making Thor's high priest into a chew toy isn't exactly nice either. Lawful or not I couldn't say, but she is evil evil evil.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Quebbster]

Also, Re: Is Hel Chaotic Evil? I was under the impression from Durkon's conversation with Malack that the Death deities tended to be neutral (otherwise death would only come to one alignment or the other?).TBH, I think that conversation's main purpose was so people wouldn't yell "Of course Malack is evil, he's the high priest of a death god!".

[Sloanzilla]

I think we're now one strip away from a high priest of Thor/Durkon intervention.

[Bulldog Psion]

Actually, that was Oogway who said that. Shifu was the one taking said road.

Dang, you're right. My brain's not working correctly yet, I guess.

[Quild]

The two dwarves throwing Durkon out are still the same than some time ago :D (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html)

The cave got an upgrade though.

[Ellye]

I don't know. This is basically how Buffyverse vampires work (and I myself think it makes sense), but HpoH might simply be telling Durkon what will crush his spirit the most. Doesn't have to be true. Especially the "another dwarf might have done the opposite" part.I'm under the same impression.

I do found the explanation quite interesting, but I wonder if it's actually true or if he's just messing with Durkon.

[Shining Wrath]

On Roy's behalf, I hereby channel Churchill.


You do your worst - and we will do our best

Emphasis on "We".

[AbyssStalker]

Bout time for the High Priest of Balder to return.

[Yendor]

TBH, I think that conversation's main purpose was so people wouldn't yell "Of course Malack is evil, he's the high priest of a death god!".

No, it was about suckering Durkon. It's classic misdirection: they're not necessarily evil, but he never claimed that applied in his case.

And it was already clear Malack was evil. He's running a bloodthirsty, oppressive, slave-driving empire built on conquest.

[Kama]

That is some Whedon-level writing right there.

[rewinn]

And now we see what Roy's biggest mistake was: not merely the tactical decision to trust Durkula, but rather - for years, knowing his best friend was exiled from home, and not asking why.

And how he felt about it.

[Lkctgo]

Hm, it's too bad Durkon hadn't died before (or even talked to an archon like Roy did). If he had, he'd know that who you are is determined by how hard you keep trying, and not what you were, or felt, one small day in your life.

[Keltest]

And now we see what Roy's biggest mistake was - not merely distrusting Durkula on sight, but rather - knowing his best friend for years was exiled from home, and not asking why.

If he asked why, he would have been told about a mission to learn more about human cultures so he can eventually return home to share that knowledge.

And he may well have, given that he knew permission to return would be given by Thor's High Priest.

[Jay R]

Durkon appears to remember the door being more ornate than it really was. In OotPCs, its just a circle carved in the stone.

He also remembers it as brown, when it was really a shade of grey.


... or maybe it's an artwork thing. One or the other.

[Lathund]

"I don't know. I'm Non-Fall Batman. (http://www.cracked.com/article_19056_the-15-most-unintentionally-hilarious-bootleg-toys_p2.html)"

Lol :smallbiggrin:


Nightwing put this in an interesting perspective, that fits this situation I think. http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q495/dchamilt/whywefall_zpsyueudvbw.jpg (http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/dchamilt/media/whywefall_zpsyueudvbw.jpg.html)[/IMG]]

Nice. Also very fitting, yes.

[JohnTheSavage]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/DurkonVampire_zps6711c6b8.png "I am a shadow, the true self."

[zimmerwald1915]

If what the vampire spirit is saying is true (and it might still be), it doesn't matter. Durkon's worst is remarkably tame in the context of the comic. It's his own guilt that inflates it.

[weckar]

It may be time for Durkon to truly forgive, and be thankful for all the friends and experiences he would have never had had he not been forced to set out.

[deimos3428]

I think at this point one of two things is almost certainly going to happen:

1. Durkon is going to make an incredibly moving speech
2. Somebody's going to smash through a window.

Or maybe both.

[GAAD]

Wow. Just... wow.

"You are who you are on your very worst day. Anything else is a comforting lie you tell yourself to numb the pain."

That's... yeah. :smallfrown:
I want to argue against him, maybe say something about the importance of striving past it - but it's striving past YOURSELF.

This is one of the most moving strips I've ever, ever read. Because now I sympathize, empathize, with the High Priest of Hel. I don't like what he's doing, but as a person? As a philosophy? I can't argue against that.

What really makes this strip is that the spirit is right. You are who you are on your worst day, in the dark. And all those days where you put on a smile and wear your polite mask for society are just that - masks. Lies to the world, lies to yourself.

When you get in a fight, the other guy doesn't see the mask. He doesn't care about the mask. He sees you, the selfish, malignant, human person below the shallow veil and sees you for the monster you are. Because we are all monsters. You are a terrible person and everyone knows it. Those moments when you let the mask fall are the moments you show your true self. That all you are is a selfish, careless parasite who never loved anyone, no matter how much you fool yourself into thinking so.

I...

I want to hate Durkula. But I can't. Because I wholeheartedly agree with him.

[Quantum Glass]

You know, Durkula sorta has a point.

No, hear me out: We all have negative thoughts. There isn't a person alive who hasn't, at some point, wished for something bad or wanted to do something immoral. Most of us feel these desires every day. We are, all of us, selfish.

Acknowledging our, "evil," urges--not fulfilling them, mind, but accepting that they are there--is something we all have to do, I think. Denying who you are just makes understanding yourself that much more difficult.

In other words: Durkon is a person with selfish and spiteful urges, and that's ok. Pretending he isn't is just self-deception.

That said.

There are many definitions of good, and one of them is doing the right thing when you want to do something else. Overcoming temptation, self-sacrifice, gritting your teeth and doing what you need to do. Roy could have stayed in paradise, leaving his friends to their fates (Well, fate, I suppose.) He didn't. He wanted to, but he didn't.

It's easy to do good when it's easy. Anyone can do that. The true measure of character is revealed when you do good in spite of what's easy.

[DLcygnet]

And now we see what Roy's biggest mistake was: not merely the tactical decision to trust Durkula, but rather - for years, knowing his best friend was exiled from home, and not asking why.

And how he felt about it.

Actually, it came up in Origin of PCs - Durkon even mentioned his mission. And Roy easily inferred from Durkon's perpetually-pissed-off-at-humans attitude that he wasn't happy about the situation. Durkon's mood shifted after Roy's treatment of him. (SO glad I snagged the new PDF). Heck, Roy wouldn't have used up his Shojo favor to get a Letter sent to Durkon's home if he DIDN'T know how upset Durkon was about the situation.

[Fungi]

Great update. I love the 2nd panel.

How long has it been since Durkon was vampirized? I can certainly see how spending every hour of every day with a spirit like that could have some psychological effects.

Also, I'm pretty sure Thor would be CG, going by his behavior in norse myth and how he's often listed in RPG pantheons.

[137beth]

...wow. I don't think I have anything else to say, just....wow.

[Shekinah]

The Joker was right. All it takes is one bad day.

[LordRahl6]

Actually, it came up in Origin of PCs - Durkon even mentioned his mission. And Roy easily inferred from Durkon's perpetually-pissed-off-at-humans attitude that he wasn't happy about the situation. Durkon's mood shifted after Roy's treatment of him. (SO glad I snagged the new PDF). Heck, Roy wouldn't have used up his Shojo favor to get a Letter sent to Durkon's home if he DIDN'T know how upset Durkon was about the situation.

Also despite focus elsewhere in the development department until now Roy knows that Durkon has grown since then which is why he's so confused. he didn't realize that "Durkon" has now reverted to his pre-OotS attitude until this fight, and the real Durkon must struggle with this vampire spirit to reclaim his soul realizing how he himself has grown.:smallwink: How this is done in the strip I have no idea because part of being a vampire in the first place is being undead.:smallamused:

[Dr.Zero]

That was kinda pointlessly cruel from Hurak, throwing Durkon out without a farewell to his Ma. Also, nice insight into how the vampires are formed.

Agreeing totally.
This now explains really better what is a vampire and why Malack thought Durkula would be still Durkon.
Durkula is Durkon. But only the resentful part of Durkon.
Indeed, if Durkula is not lying to Durkon, the vampires are free willed and their feelings are based on the memories of their host.
Durkula is therefore a "Woobie destroyer of worlds", like they would say at tvtropes.org.
And, by the way, if really Durkon will bring destruction to the dwarves, then we are seeing a typical self fulfilling prophecy.

All in all, great update!

[Aerysil]

We are who we are on our worst day. Interesting.

I hope there's a counter point to this that is equally interesting.

[Chris Wiz]

Wow. Just... wow.

"You are who you are on your very worst day. Anything else is a comforting lie you tell yourself to numb the pain."

snip

I want to hate Durkula. But I can't. Because I wholeheartedly agree with him.

The counterpoint to that is that, on your good or best days, that you do things that benefit or help other people. It's real to them, therefore it's not just a face you put on to get along with society. How many people has Durkon directly or even indirectly helped in this story? All of these people are a living testament to the good that he has done.

[Doug Lampert]

I love how the Giant twists the entire basis of the D&D alignment system, rejecting it in favor of underlying philosophies. Here, A being created by a dark goddess to perfectly fit into dark underlying thoughts, I dunno, it just brings a tear to my eye.
How so? The Giant uses an extremely straightforward reading of the D&D third edition alignment system as written. If anything he far too rarely has a creature that doesn't match it's MM alignment (the MM frequencies all have a definition that tells you roughly how many exceptions to have, the giant hardly ever has obvious exceptions to racial alignments even for creatures where less than half are supposed to be of the racial alignment).

The Evil creatures are all clearly evil, the good guys are clearly good. Everything works by alignment as written. Nothing about the alignment system tells you that bad guys can't have friends, associates, goals, real grievances, ext... That's on some players who don't read carefully.

Now there are some GAMES that ignore the actual written alignment system in favor of killing people and taking their stuff because they have green skin and fangs, but fortunately the actual rules tell us that this is Evil.

[Sloanzilla]

~ Cue the dwarf version of "It's a Wonderful Life"

[zimmerwald1915]

The counterpoint to that is that, on your good or best days, that you do things that benefit or help other people.
Durkon has, but that's not necessarily true of everyone. Just as Durkon's worst isn't particularly awful, his best is exceptional.

[jidasfire]

Wow. Just... wow.

"You are who you are on your very worst day. Anything else is a comforting lie you tell yourself to numb the pain."

That's... yeah. :smallfrown:
I want to argue against him, maybe say something about the importance of striving past it - but it's striving past YOURSELF.

This is one of the most moving strips I've ever, ever read. Because now I sympathize, empathize, with the High Priest of Hel. I don't like what he's doing, but as a person? As a philosophy? I can't argue against that.

What really makes this strip is that the spirit is right. You are who you are on your worst day, in the dark. And all those days where you put on a smile and wear your polite mask for society are just that - masks. Lies to the world, lies to yourself.

When you get in a fight, the other guy doesn't see the mask. He doesn't care about the mask. He sees you, the selfish, malignant, human person below the shallow veil and sees you for the monster you are. Because we are all monsters. You are a terrible person and everyone knows it. Those moments when you let the mask fall are the moments you show your true self. That all you are is a selfish, careless parasite who never loved anyone, no matter how much you fool yourself into thinking so.

I...

I want to hate Durkula. But I can't. Because I wholeheartedly agree with him.

Nope, sorry, I don't buy it.

A bad person proving a good person is capable of badness is not even a drop of proof that everyone is a full-on monster. It's a cynical, shallow philosophy held mostly by sociopaths and overly emotional teenagers to justify their own rotten behavior and/or shock their parents with their edgy thoughts.

It's no fun to look at the rottenness in ourselves and know we're capable of things we think are wrong. But why are we only the worst in ourselves? Who decided that? Aren't we also the best? Aren't we everything in between as well? Even if it's true, what's the practical upshot? That we're all bad no matter what and should just give up if we've ever done or thought something less than perfect? That's ridiculous and I wouldn't want to live in a world where that were true.

Bringing it back to the comic, it is absolutely in the best interest of Durkula, a vicious monster bent on nothing less than the death of the world itself, to break the spirit of Durkon, a good person who has some power, however small, to resist him. I personally would find both his motives and logic suspect for that very reason.

[Emperordaniel]

I just realized something.

Durkon needed a refresher of the moment when he was kicked out of the clan. A refresher of a memory he should know by heart.

Durkula isn't just absorbing Durkon's memories, he's then deleting Durkon's copies of said memories.

...this would help explain that "eternal dormancy" thing mentioned in strip #948 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html).

[Sylthia]

Looks like Roy is still kicking for now, and it also looks like Durkula is committing the fatal mistake of monologing before finishing off the hero.

[Basement Cat]

Poor Durkon!

I'm enjoying how Durkon is finally getting some background development. Of all the OOTS characters he's always had the least character development and now we're literally getting inside his head.

Roy doesn't look as bad as I feared. Even after being hit by a Harm spell he's scrapping on. I don't think he'll survive without backup or intervention but he's still scrapping.

[Syncrogti]

I was sure Belkar was going to return in this comic. Damn.

[Anarion]

It's funny how easily swayed people can be in the moment.

The vampire is an idiot on his own setting. He has a philosophy that judges people on their worst moments. Step back whether you find that persuasive or not in some abstract sense. This is a comic where we've seen a man on trial to get into heaven. Here's a refresher link. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html

We know, as a matter of observed fact in the OotS universe, that one is NOT judged on their worst day. That what matters is trying, recovering from every failure and mistake and trying to live up to one's ideals.

[Gift Jeraff]

Finally, confirmation that Durkula wasn't a pre-existing spirit and that he is indeed an evil mirror of Durkon.

[Shekinah]

Looks like Roy is still kicking for now, and it also looks like Durkula is committing the fatal mistake of monologing before finishing off the hero.

It's moments like these that call for a Tarquin smiley.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I just realized something.

Durkon needed a refresher of the moment when he was kicked out of the clan. A refresher of a memory he should know by heart.

Durkula isn't just absorbing Durkon's memories, he's then deleting Durkon's copies of said memories.

...this would help explain that "eternal dormancy" thing mentioned in strip #948 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html).

Eh, I'm not sold on this idea right now. Look at Durkon's hesitation just before the vampire shows the memories. And when he shouts for the vampire to stop. Durkon remembers, and he knows, but he doesn't want to think about it.

[zimmerwald1915]

We know, as a matter of observed fact in the OotS universe, that one is NOT judged on their worst day. That what matters is trying, recovering from every failure and mistake and trying to live up to one's ideals.
But we also know that yes, one CAN (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) be judged on their worst day, and that it is by no means unreasonable to expect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html) eternal sanction for a particularly bad day. There don't seem to be hard and fast rules, big codex alight with holy fire notwithstanding.

[pendell]

Looks like Roy is still kicking for now, and it also looks like Durkula is committing the fatal mistake of monologing before finishing off the hero.

Relax, speaking is a free action.

Besides, since villains in stories never actually [outside of prequels] win -- at least, not in Rich Burlew stories -- their seemingly-triumphant monologue is as close as they ever get to being able to tell the world what they really believe and why.

It makes his comeuppance in the next few panels all the more satisfying.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Enran]

You know, Durkula sorta has a point.

No, hear me out: We all have negative thoughts. There isn't a person alive who hasn't, at some point, wished for something bad or wanted to do something immoral. Most of us feel these desires every day. We are, all of us, selfish.

Acknowledging our, "evil," urges--not fulfilling them, mind, but accepting that they are there--is something we all have to do, I think. Denying who you are just makes understanding yourself that much more difficult.

In other words: Durkon is a person with selfish and spiteful urges, and that's ok. Pretending he isn't is just self-deception.

That said.

There are many definitions of good, and one of them is doing the right thing when you want to do something else. Overcoming temptation, self-sacrifice, gritting your teeth and doing what you need to do. Roy could have stayed in paradise, leaving his friends to their fates (Well, fate, I suppose.) He didn't. He wanted to, but he didn't.

It's easy to do good when it's easy. Anyone can do that. The true measure of character is revealed when you do good in spite of what's easy.
I think this is very important.

The way I see it, a person isn't what they show at their worst, but what they do at their worst.

Durkon at his worst is full of hatred and resentment and mentally wishes the worst on the people who wronged him, and often on bad days in the human lands he'll mentally treat other humans the same way collectively, wishing beyond all hope that they would all disappear so his mission would be meaningless and he could return home.

But you know what? Feelings don't define a person. Actions are what decide if you're good or evil.

Yes, Durkon cried out. He railed against the people that had wronged him. On his bad days, he feels true hatred for entirely innocent folks just for existing, because as far as he's aware, those people's existence is the only reason he isn't happily at home with none of this ever happening.

But if a dragon had swooped in to attack the mountain lair soon after Durkon had been cast out, while he was feelings his horrible unrelenting hatred for those people? And all the times where he hated and despised the humans at the moment they needed him most, like when he joined up with Roy and the party they were with set him up on a suicide mission and he went along with it to avoid those people dying from not doing their part? He was and would be still there to help.

Durkon is a Good dwarf, without a single doubt in my mind on that front. He's a man who is willing to lay his life down even for people he hates, not just because it's his Lawful duty, but because it's the right thing to do and he doesn't want to let anybody die on his account. He's a good man who's willing to put his life on the line to protect the innocent for no gain even when he hates those people. And when he's finally given an opportunity to turn his power on the people he hates when they show their faces in acts of villainy, he's still never cruel or excessive.

I don't think it matters that Durkon once felt and sometimes still does feel deep rage towards his circumstances and the people that forced him into them. Because at the end of the day, these feelings won't stop him from doing the right thing and not expecting a reward. He may be gruff and unhappy about it, but being gruff and unhappy (or, indeed, wailing deeply in despair) about your acts of heroism doesn't make them any less heroic.

I think that's a lesson a lot of people in the real world ought to learn, too.

[M0rdecai[QC]]

It's moments like these that call for a Tarquin smiley.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.pnghttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?96672-Order-of-the-Stick-Smilies

[Broken Crown]

Well. That scene was a long time in coming, and the delivery was everything the build-up promised. Ouch.

Well done, and thank you, Giant.

[Bulldog Psion]

Finally, confirmation that Durkula wasn't a pre-existing spirit and that he is indeed an evil mirror of Durkon.

Except that he's already explicitly said the opposite, too.

[Gift Jeraff]

Except that he's already explicitly said the opposite, too.

:smallconfused:

[zimmerwald1915]

Except that he's already explicitly said the opposite, too.
The key is "pre-existing." That is, the spirit wasn't floating around Hel's domain for a thousand years before Durkon was born, and she didn't pluck it up at random. Hel made it in the moment of Durkon's vampirization, and the process of vampirization tailored the spirit to Durkon's character and circumstances.

[Dalek Kommander]

"We are who we are on our worst day?" That quote makes sense in other contexts, perhaps, but the way this creature is using it, it is a lie.


Ehhh... it's not so much a "lie" as it is the vampire's perspective. It is "the truth as the vampire sees it", which is emhatically not the same thing as the WHOLE truth, but it contains a sliver of truth that Durkon has been desperately trying to avoid facing for years.

In fact, you could even say the vampire is the "antithesis" of Durkon's world view, and I use that term precisely: Durkon's original emotion-denying sense of duty is the "thesis", and when Durkon figures out how to stop denying his emotions but still keep the noble, uplifting parts of his Lawful Good world view, that will be the "synthesis".

And also character development, obviously.

[CoffeeIncluded]

He said he's an evil spirit driving around Durkon's body like a stagecoach. But Durkon's worst memories, feelings, and moments shaped and affected him. There's a reason the evil spirit looks like Durkon and we just learned why. You can be an evil possessing spirit and a dark mirror and that's what the vampire is.

[Sloanzilla]

I think the dark mirror thing is just a line. He isn't Tyler Durkon or any kind of manifestation of part of Durkon. He's an independent sentient being who has full control of Durkon's body and is spouting lines, internally and externally, that benefit him the most.

[Ranzear]

Tyler Durkon

I laughed way harder than I should.

[Wysper]

Wasn't Roy down to 1 HP?

Why does everyone keep saying he is at 1 HP? Will save halves the damage. It's already been shown he has a good Will.

[Ezekiel]

We can bandy about the "is a person only as good as their worst moment" forever, but the real reason Durkula is saying it isn't because it's true, but because it's cruel. It's one of the most cruel things he can say to Durkon because it's making him suffer. The whole thing with Roy is a cruel mockery to make Roy suffer as much he can as "Durkon" kills him. Suffering for the sake of Durkula's enjoyment. Pure cruelty/malice for the sake of it.

I don't know if we've had such a purely sadistic villain in OOTS yet, the only one that I can think comes close is Xkyon, and he's more about widespread killing than making an individual suffer.

Except for the whole soul bind thing I suppose.

[Trillium]

Roy ain't dead!
There ain't no crosses in his eyes yet!
Have heart!

[Shining Wrath]

I'm going to say it again: Evil wants you to believe you are the person you are at your worst moments, while the rest is a sham. That's because you believing that serves the purposes of evil people. It lets them claim to be "honest" or "iconoclastic" or whatever sort of edgy-cool is in vogue. When really being Evil is pretty much acting like a spoiled brat. To paraphrase something CS Lewis wrote in Perelandra, it's inside-out; on the outside great schemes, toppling kingdoms and fighting against the gods themselves, but on the inside, it's a little child throwing a tantrum.

The reality is more complex; from CS Lewis I'll move to UK. LeGuin, and note that Sparrowhawk was only free when he embraced the dark side of himself and named it with his own true name, and thereby conquered it.

I have faith in Durkon. He will accept the darkness within in as only part of what he is, his chin will rise, and he will oppose the HPoH once more. To what effect? Ah, that's what the F5 key is for, my friends.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

He is, but Durkon (and by extension the HPoH) do not know that, unless Hel told the HPoH.

Wasn't Hurak the high priest of Thor, meaning that if he isn't at the moot, both of them can deduce he's dead?

[Siosilvar]

-snip-

I want to hate Durkula. But I can't. Because I wholeheartedly agree with him.

You and Durkula (and Vaarsuvius) are both missing the point:

People change.

And not only that, but even when they don't change they can be good and bad and everything else all at the same time. Because people are more complex than that. We use "monster" when things are simple, when we've reduced things to just the bad. Everybody has bad in them, sure. But everybody has good in them as well.

Durkon was angry. Once. Eighteen years ago. He said some things he maybe shouldn't have, and understandably so. You're not expected to be a saint every waking hour of the day; that's impossible except for the literal angels of the OotS world. Judgement, as the Deva said way back when Roy died, is not entirely about your success. It's also about whether or not you've tried to be good.

Your failures do not define you. It's what you do about them. Do you live in fear of failing, or do you try anyway? Do you use them as motivation to avoid failing again?

"You miss 100% of the shots you never take." - Wayne Gretzky

[pendell]

I'm going to say it again: Evil wants you to believe you are the person you are at your worst moments, while the rest is a sham. That's because you believing that serves the purposes of evil people. It lets them claim to be "honest" or "iconoclastic" or whatever sort of edgy-cool is in vogue. When really being Evil is pretty much acting like a spoiled brat. To paraphrase something CS Lewis wrote in Perelandra, it's inside-out; on the outside great schemes, toppling kingdoms and fighting against the gods themselves, but on the inside, it's a little child throwing a tantrum.

The reality is more complex; from CS Lewis I'll move to UK. LeGuin, and note that Sparrowhawk was only free when he embraced the dark side of himself and named it with his own true name, and thereby conquered it.

I have faith in Durkon. He will accept the darkness within in as only part of what he is, his chin will rise, and he will oppose the HPoH once more. To what effect? Ah, that's what the F5 key is for, my friends.

Bravo, well spoken.

Terry Pratchett once described human beings as the point where fallen angel meets the rising ape. The point is not that we don't have a dark side. The point is that we acknowledge and overcome it, with whatever grace is given us to do so.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

I don't know if we've had such a purely sadistic villain in OOTS yet, the only one that I can think comes close is Xkyon, and he's more about widespread killing than making an individual suffer.

Nale, going by War & XPs commentary, may qualify:

"He hates, in the purest sense of the word. Xykon can't even be bothered to hate anyone, they're all so far below him, really. He mostly commits evil acts for his own pleasure, while Nale commits evil acts to make other people suffer."

[DLcygnet]

I have proof the HPoH is lying!

Even on his worst day, Durkon's accent is still as thick as ever! And that didn't get absorbed. :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

That scene was a long time in coming, and the delivery was everything the build-up promised. Here's another perspective on this strip: more foreplay.

As to vampires getting their jollies on being cruel -- well yeah, they are vampires, one of the most archetypical evil and cruel villains in various mythology and lore, as well as one of the nastiest monsters made for D&D.

The undead are a corruption of life. Vampires are leaders and lords among the undead. The spirit trying to corrupt Durkon is being written from the correct template ... "and you are vulnerable, as you do not yet have your own sarcophagus to which you may retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html)."

As to the never-ending conversations ...

"You are who you are on your worst day" is the kind of inner monologue, IRL, when someone begins to believe it, that leads to people wandering down that dark spiral into self destructive behaviors and suicide

Nice buzz kill, Rich. OOTS used to be fun to read.

[Alchemist_Fire]

(sorry if it's been expressed already, but)

This terrifying manipulation by Lurky Corpsewhiskers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0953.html) ties back to Malack, I think. The forums have speculated what the original lizardman soul must have felt, trapped in the skull of our favorite Lizgreaper (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0718.html). There is ambiguity, perhaps, in how Malack the vampire spirit perceives himself, relative to the soul he has trapped (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html).

I wonder what would happen to the two souls if this manipulation persists? Would Durkon begin to "give up"? And how would that manifest? Or, if Lurky is eventually slain and Durkon is resurrected, how will his character have been corrupted?

[LordRahl6]

Wasn't Hurak the high priest of Thor, meaning that if he isn't at the moot, both of them can deduce he's dead?

Except that Hurak is himself dead as was discovered in War and XPs. It was in the letter that Miko was delivering that he never received because she met Team Evil and dropped it.:smallwink:

[Spoomeister]

I have to think the resolution of the fight comes with the next strip. What else is left at this point? The setup is there for Durkon to assert control, possibly with a bit of a memory jog from HPoThor. Or, if it's Belkar who comes in to save the day (which I still have a hard time believing would happen), the dramatic point to interrupt the fight would be before the seeming death-blow that's coming.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Terry Pratchett once described human beings as the point where fallen angel meets the rising ape.

I've always claimed you could get to humans being exactly and literally that with a way too literal reading of the book of Genesis (placing the *cough*meeting*cough roughly a few million years ago). Now I am going to claim Terry Pratchett himself was on my side. ;)

[Bulldog Psion]

:smallconfused:

"Your dark spirit was birthed in my hall." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)

"What of the dwarf's spirit?" "It is well in hand, my lady." (Same comic.)

"...their buddies' corpse is being driven around like a stagecoach by an evil spirit. Which it is." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html)

Unless one asserts that Hel created Durkon's soul, I don't think there's any way interpret those statements otherwise than indicating the vampire is a second, entirely different spirit infesting Durkon's body.

EDIT: even if the jibe about you are who you are on your worst day is true -- which, IM-very-carefully-considered-O, it isn't -- then if Durkon's worst ever is verbally lambasting a bunch of people who just screwed him over, then he's not very bad at all. Cussing someone out and verbally wishing them ill when they can't even hear you is so trivial a fault that I can't even count it as one; just someone blowing off steam.

[Ornithologist]

For people wanting to know why Durkon never tried contacting the high priest of Thor before:

Hurak forced Durkon to swear to remain in the human lands until Hurak asked him to return. And Durkon is loyal enough to do it, I mean he did eventually write a letter, but it was 20 years later.

Seriously, the prequel books are really good.

[Psyren]

"Your dark spirit was birthed in my hall." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)

"What of the dwarf's spirit?" "It is well in hand, my lady." (Same comic.)

"...their buddies' corpse is being driven around like a stagecoach by an evil spirit. Which it is." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html)

Unless one asserts that Hel created Durkon's soul, I don't think there's any way interpret those statements otherwise than indicating the vampire is a second, entirely different spirit infesting Durkon's body.

I think his issue is with the term "pre-existing" rather than "separate." Darkon is indeed separate, but he was created to slot into Durkon's metaphysical being perfectly - therefore he only began existing after Durkon became a vampire.

[DataNinja]

I'm hoping that the High Priest of Thor calls out, reinvigorating Durkon in some way, allowing him to break free.

Just my two cents.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

"Your dark spirit was birthed in my hall." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)

"What of the dwarf's spirit?" "It is well in hand, my lady." (Same comic.)

"...their buddies' corpse is being driven around like a stagecoach by an evil spirit. Which it is." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html)

Unless one asserts that Hel created Durkon's soul, I don't think there's any way interpret those statements otherwise than indicating the vampire is a second, entirely different spirit infesting Durkon's body.

It is a different spirit. What Helboy claims here is that this "blank" (but possibly already evil) spirit is then formed by absorbing the very worst memories (/personality traits) of their host. Or: If Roy had been bitten by a vampire Roycula would have been a different person than Durkula, because it would have been formed from Roy's deepest darkest bad stuff.

Honestly, I don't see much reason to doubt his explanation to the point of not giving it a second thought. The story of Durkon's life seems to be that he always has to suffer more and more and feel like **** about it. This is just one step further than I had expected the Giant to take it. But that's what all good plots do, you can only shock and move the audience by going a step further than they were expecting.

[Lvl45DM!]

"Your dark spirit was birthed in my hall." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)

"What of the dwarf's spirit?" "It is well in hand, my lady." (Same comic.)

"...their buddies' corpse is being driven around like a stagecoach by an evil spirit. Which it is." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html)

Unless one asserts that Hel created Durkon's soul, I don't think there's any way interpret those statements otherwise than indicating the vampire is a second, entirely different spirit infesting Durkon's body.

EDIT: even if the jibe about you are who you are on your worst day is true -- which, IM-very-carefully-considered-O, it isn't -- then if Durkon's worst ever is verbally lambasting a bunch of people who just screwed him over, then he's not very bad at all. Cussing someone out and verbally wishing them ill when they can't even hear you is so trivial a fault that I can't even count it as one; just someone blowing off steam.

You're misunderstanding others. They arent saying its Durkons spirit but a dark mirror or relfection. An evil twin. Actually, more like an evil clone. If Durkon was different the spirit would be different.

[Emperordaniel]

Why does everyone keep saying he is at 1 HP? Will save halves the damage. It's already been shown he has a good Will.

Taking four level drains to the face did a number on all his saves.

[DeadMG]

Indeed, but why else would Odin have granted this prophecy, if not to allow his followers a chance to head it off?

Sure, they screwed it up, but the All-Father must have thought there was a chance.


Powers &8^]

Maybe he didn't. Maybe he intentionally sacrificed Durkon, allowed Durkula and his death and destruction to occur, just so that Durkon could fight Xykon and win the day. It's dwarves vs the world in this.

[littlebum2002]

Why does everyone keep saying he is at 1 HP? Will save halves the damage. It's already been shown he has a good Will.

Even if you have +100 to your Will save you still have a 1/20 chance of failing it.

(Unless you have that awesome Luck feat from some splatbook which lets you reroll failed saves)

[Fundament]

At work, no time to read through the thread so apologies if these points have been made to death (also, long-time forum reader first-time poster [at least with this name, I seem to remember making some posts years ago but REGARDLESS]) but:

I want to go on record as saying that despite the seemingly endless iterations and supplements to OoTS' conception of sentient undead (which honestly borders on conceptually incoherent at this point for me but works fine for the purpose of the story) I believe this 'fit perfectly in the hole in your heart' notion is just a straight-up lie on the part of the HPoH motivated by spite and cruelty.

EDIT: and, the thing about 'you are who you are on your worst day' is probably not a lie but is false. Just a real evil guy, the HPoH, with an evil perspective (explaining this claim) and very evil intentions (explaining the other).

[Shining Wrath]

At work, no time to read through the thread so apologies if these points have been made to death (also, long-time forum reader first-time poster [at least with this name, I seem to remember making some posts years ago but REGARDLESS]) but:

I want to go on record as saying that despite the seemingly endless iterations and supplements to OoTS' conception of sentient undead (which honestly borders on conceptually incoherent at this point for me but works fine for the purpose of the story) I believe this 'fit perfectly in the hole in your heart' notion is just a straight-up lie on the part of the HPoH motivated by spite and cruelty.

In general, the forum agrees with you; the HPoH is a sadistic bastard and Durkon is not well described by his darkest moments.

[skim172]

We can bandy about the "is a person only as good as their worst moment" forever, but the real reason Durkula is saying it isn't because it's true, but because it's cruel. It's one of the most cruel things he can say to Durkon because it's making him suffer. The whole thing with Roy is a cruel mockery to make Roy suffer as much he can as "Durkon" kills him. Suffering for the sake of Durkula's enjoyment. Pure cruelty/malice for the sake of it.

I don't know if we've had such a purely sadistic villain in OOTS yet, the only one that I can think comes close is Xkyon, and he's more about widespread killing than making an individual suffer.

Except for the whole soul bind thing I suppose.

I'm with this guy.

[Bulldog Psion]

In general, the forum agrees with you; the HPoH is a sadistic bastard and Durkon is not well described by his darkest moments.

(Which, frankly, are kind of a medium grey at worst anyway. :smallbiggrin: Hey, I've written a series of 22 ebooks about various Nazi and Soviet leaders for a client. I know what darkness looks like. Durkon ranting and raving a little is so small-time that I don't even count it as a blip on the malevolometer. :smallwink:)

[Kislath]

You are who you are on you worst day?

A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

Works for me.

[Gift Jeraff]

Unless one asserts that Hel created Durkon's soul, I don't think there's any way interpret those statements otherwise than indicating the vampire is a second, entirely different spirit infesting Durkon's body.

Did I say he wasn't?

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Nah I've got to say that it is darn harsh to wish eternal torment on somebody like that, and, well, in that moment when you are feeling so broken and feeling so much hate...

Let's just say that it's a good thing Durkon had nobody to lash out at at that moment.

[Bulldog Psion]

Did I say he wasn't?

Well, I guess I misinterpreted your statement then, because "wasn't a pre-existing spirit" sounds functionally identical to "he is the same spirit as Durkon" to me. That he's made out of Durkon, and therefore is Durkon. A mirror image isn't a separate entity; it's us, reflected in a surface.

Sorry for misunderstanding; it still sounds that way to me, honestly, but I'll take everyone's word for it that it isn't. :smallsmile:

[Anansiil]

I was going to have breakfast, but after reading this comic, I find myself utterly satisfied :)

[Aerysil]

It's funny how easily swayed people can be in the moment.

The vampire is an idiot on his own setting. He has a philosophy that judges people on their worst moments. Step back whether you find that persuasive or not in some abstract sense. This is a comic where we've seen a man on trial to get into heaven. Here's a refresher link. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html

We know, as a matter of observed fact in the OotS universe, that one is NOT judged on their worst day. That what matters is trying, recovering from every failure and mistake and trying to live up to one's ideals.

It might not be the vampire's philosophy operating here.
I'll wait to see what unfolds.

[Gift Jeraff]

Well, I guess I misinterpreted your statement then, because "wasn't a pre-existing spirit" sounds functionally identical to "he is the same spirit as Durkon" to me. That he's made out of Durkon, and therefore is Durkon. A mirror image isn't a separate entity; it's us, reflected in a surface.

Sorry for misunderstanding; it still sounds that way to me, honestly, but I'll take everyone's word for it that it isn't. :smallsmile:

By pre-existing I meant the interpretation that the spirit had existed for centuries and Hel was just waiting for a high level cleric to get vampirized.

As for mirrors, the reflective surface is not made of us and can completely distort our image. :smallwink:

[Shining Wrath]

(Which, frankly, are kind of a medium grey at worst anyway. :smallbiggrin: Hey, I've written a series of 22 ebooks about various Nazi and Soviet leaders for a client. I know what darkness looks like. Durkon ranting and raving a little is so small-time that I don't even count it as a blip on the malevolometer. :smallwink:)

Art may imitate life, but I sincerely hope Rich isn't capable of imagining what reality served up.

If this worst thing you've ever done is wished someone harm after they did you harm, while you were alone and hungry and cold, you're a pretty damn fine human being. Even if you're a dwarf.

[Knight.Anon]

If Roy is at -9 then he's out of the fight, either Durkula or somebody else will finish it. I think the world will be saved one way or the other, but will Roy? Really, Roy dropped the ball on this and deserves to pay the price. After the world is saved, one of the other clerics can bring him back for his gallantry.

[Hague]

Is this where the current High Priestess of Thor finally recognizes Durkon and says something about this whole deal.

[wolfdreams01]

Yes! I was right! I totally called it after the last strip!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19854863&postcount=333

Bow before me, my minions! This is my one and only opportunity for bragging rights here, and I must revel in my power!

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[Leewei]

Durkon's own anguish and hatred at his people is bound up within him so well that it would not normally break free and be expressed. Is it possible that the bonds on his own soul are drawn from this?

I get the feeling the intelligence keeping him imprisoned just gave away a major clue into its nature and the key to Durkon's regaining his freedom. This battle isn't about Roy defeating Durkon. It's about Durkon being driven to the point where he will change to save his friend.

[JoeyTheNeko]

damn. seems the high priest of hel isn't so much different from durkon at his worst then durkon was. that's... scary. still hoping for a miracle to save the day right now.

edit: woot, I evolved from pixie to Halfling.

[littlebum2002]

Yes! I was right! I totally called it after the last strip!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19854863&postcount=333

Bow before me, my minions! This is my one and only opportunity for bragging rights here, and I must revel in my power!

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Wow dude that was a good call

[King of Nowhere]

I just noticed an intersting parallel: guilt is one of the primary weapons in good's arsenal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html), but it works for evil too. it's surprising how you can use guilt to both push people to be better or worse.

[zimmerwald1915]

EDIT: even if the jibe about you are who you are on your worst day is true -- which, IM-very-carefully-considered-O, it isn't -- then if Durkon's worst ever is verbally lambasting a bunch of people who just screwed him over, then he's not very bad at all. Cussing someone out and verbally wishing them ill when they can't even hear you is so trivial a fault that I can't even count it as one; just someone blowing off steam.
I think I ascribe some more truth to the vampire spirit's claim than you do, but as far as Durkon goes, this is my position as well. His worst is mild, tame even, particularly in the crowd he runs with.

[goodpeople25]

Art may imitate life, but I sincerely hope Rich isn't capable of imagining what reality served up.

If this worst thing you've ever done is wished someone harm after they did you harm, while you were alone and hungry and cold, you're a pretty damn fine human being. Even if you're a dwarf.
You seem to be underplaying Durkon's religion here, he is swearing to his god that he wishs eternal suffering and dishonour to (depending on your interpretation)either every priest of thor or every dwarf in general (well most likely not his mom and family but probably every other dwarf is fair game) that is not something that should be taken likely.
You also have to take into consideration what Durkon would have done if he wasn't alone and only a lower level cleric with no one to hurt. If a passing dwarf was nearby at that period of time I can't honestly say what would have happened.

[Jasdoif]

I think I ascribe some more truth to the vampire spirit's claim than you do, but as far as Durkon goes, this is my position as well. His worst is mild, tame even, particularly in the crowd he runs with.Indeed. The whole thing sounds very familiar...Ah, here it is:



If you take someone and, say, kill their family, and they express hatred for the murderers and the strong desire to have them be killed horribly, does that mean that they're people who want people to be killed horribly? No, they're broken people, acting against who they really are under such INCREDIBLE stress that they are overwhelmed by anger and emotion. That's not who they really are, that's who they are under the influence of such strong emotions. It's the reason why such people, when the emotion passes, feel strongly guilty for those feelings and those actions and words ... because those words, at the end of the day, AREN'T them.And I am saying that I fundamentally disagree with this premise. It is them, and if they feel guilty that's because they don't want it to be who they are. And that's fine, that's normal and maybe people in that situation will do their best to change if they don't like what stress has revealed, or maybe they'll decide that they're fine with who they are. But deciding it's some sort of Other that takes possession of your body because stress happened is really weird. It strikes me as exactly the sort of self-justification I was talking about above, the kind that good writing breaks through. Tarquin would certainly say that he isn't really a violent control freak who is willing to sacrifice his family to feed his ego, it was just the stress making him that way. And I would say, "Bull****."

[hroþila]

With everything the Giant has written here about dwarven society and the importance of dying with honour, I would assume there'd be a strong taboo against cursing other dwarves to Hel. Remember that's not simply "to hell": it's wishing them to die dishonourably.

It's certainly not as bad as being a murderer or anything, but I understand why Durkon would prefer to forget about it. In fact, rather than thinking it's tame, I'm surprised Durkon was capable of this at all.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Words already ending in S can end with an apostrophe.

That's a very common misconception. It should be words that are plural that end in S.

[zimmerwald1915]

It's certainly not as bad as being a murderer or anything, but I understand why Durkon would prefer to forget about it. In fact, rather than thinking it's tame, I'm surprised Durkon was capable of this at all.
Of course he was. If he wasn't, he wouldn't feel the need to build such a regime of repression around himself.

[Lamech]

Well things are not looking up for our hero. Roy don't die again!

[Fundament]

Indeed. The whole thing sounds very familiar...Ah, here it is:

Good find.

These two statements are not equivalent:
1. the person you are in your worst moment is also you.
2. person you are in your worst moment is more you than you are you at other times.

No, it's not an "other" that takes over to make a person curse someone else when they are in extremis. It's also not an "other" that takes over at all other times.

(Personally I doubt the whole concept of an 'essential self,' I believe the notion of 'me/I' to be pretty shaky, but that level of skepticism isn't necessary to conclude:)

People are whole people with lots of different potentials, it's not a useful descriptor of a WHOLE PERSON to say "you did X and therefore you are the-kind-of-person-who-does-X." That's tautologically true but it does a poor job of capturing the whole.

With your quoted example, that person is the sort of person who wishes death on others in some circumstances but not in most.

[Fundament]

That's a very common misconception. It should be words that are plural that end in S.

Strunk & White agree with you but accepted usage is more broad.

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/possessives.htm

[zimmerwald1915]

People are whole people with lots of different potentials, it's not a useful descriptor of a WHOLE PERSON to say "you did X and therefore you are the-kind-of-person-who-does-X." That's tautologically true but it does a poor job of capturing the whole.
It depends on how important or self-defining X is, doesn't it? Surely some things contribute more to a person's character than others.

[konradknox]

The dwarves in that church were all dim witted stupid drunk cowards. Their prophecy is entirely self-fulfilling.

What they should have done was trusted Durkon and explained the prophecy to him. He would in an instant agree to cell confinement or voluntary exile. The safest thing to do was confinement, if he can never leave, he can't come back.

That being said, go Durkon! Break out of this negative evil rationalization bull**** the vampire is spitting!

[Ghost Nappa]

*snip*

Nope, sorry, I don't buy it.

A bad person proving a good person is capable of badness is not even a drop of proof that everyone is a full-on monster. It's a cynical, shallow philosophy held mostly by sociopaths and overly emotional teenagers to justify their own rotten behavior and/or shock their parents with their edgy thoughts.

It's no fun to look at the rottenness in ourselves and know we're capable of things we think are wrong. But why are we only the worst in ourselves? Who decided that? Aren't we also the best? Aren't we everything in between as well? Even if it's true, what's the practical upshot? That we're all bad no matter what and should just give up if we've ever done or thought something less than perfect? That's ridiculous and I wouldn't want to live in a world where that were true.

Bringing it back to the comic, it is absolutely in the best interest of Durkula, a vicious monster bent on nothing less than the death of the world itself, to break the spirit of Durkon, a good person who has some power, however small, to resist him. I personally would find both his motives and logic suspect for that very reason.

Not exactly related, but I agree with jidasfire. You are the sum of your parts, the good and the bad. Pretending we don't lash out or feel empathy for others or anything in between is to deny who you are or an admission of having lots of issues.

I also thought this was thematically appropriate.


Recognize you, I do. Part of you are, yes. Power over me, you have not. Through patience and training, it is I who control you. Control over me, you have not. My dark side you are. Reject you, I do.Star Wars: Clone Wars, Season 6: EP 12, "Destiny"

[Shining Wrath]

You seem to be underplaying Durkon's religion here, he is swearing to his god that he wishs eternal suffering and dishonour to (depending on your interpretation)either every priest of thor or every dwarf in general (well most likely not his mom and family but probably every other dwarf is fair game) that is not something that should be taken likely.
You also have to take into consideration what Durkon would have done if he wasn't alone and only a lower level cleric with no one to hurt. If a passing dwarf was nearby at that period of time I can't honestly say what would have happened.

If Durkon is accountable for what he might have done, at his worst and lowest moments, had he somehow had the power to act on his dark impulses - well, then, those other dwarves have also had moments of darkness and doubt, for into every life a little tree root must grow, and they too must be held accountable. If Durkon is evil because of his worst moment, all those other dwarves are equally evil, and equally deserving of Hel.

So I'm going to keep saying this: evil wants you believe you are no better than your worst moments, because that serves the purposes of evil. If you want to act like a selfish bastard, what better way to get away with it than to claim we're all selfish when we think we can get away with it? And down that path lies darkness and ruin, for individuals and societies.

[zimmerwald1915]

If you want to act like a selfish bastard, what better way to get away with it than to claim we're all selfish when we think we can get away with it?
Convincing yourself that you're not responsible for your [bad] actions is also effective (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html).

[Dr.Zero]

Yes! I was right! I totally called it after the last strip!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19854863&postcount=333

Bow before me, my minions! This is my one and only opportunity for bragging rights here, and I must revel in my power!

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Haha! Congratulation for the good guess! :smallwink:


With everything the Giant has written here about dwarven society and the importance of dying with honour, I would assume there'd be a strong taboo against cursing other dwarves to Hel. Remember that's not simply "to hell": it's wishing them to die dishonourably.

It's certainly not as bad as being a murderer or anything, but I understand why Durkon would prefer to forget about it. In fact, rather than thinking it's tame, I'm surprised Durkon was capable of this at all.

Well, your father died on duty. Your mother lost an arm on duty. Your mother is getting old and sick and needs help. And to thank your family of all this, your people kick you out in the wild, alone and without means to survive -leaving int the process your mom sick and on herself and wondering about what happened to her only son- to save their own asses.

Damn it, screw them, I want to see them all die slowly! :smallbiggrin:
(Yes, it sounds a little Belkarish, but sometimes Belkar is right!)

Yes, I know that a possible reply is: "Well, for example his father, dying on duty, is going to heaven, so no loss, really." But for now I'd like to leave aside the fantasy religion. :)

For me his reaction is totally understandable, and even keeping hating them and trying to destroy his old "brothers" of the same church would be totally understandable.

[goodpeople25]

If Durkon is accountable for what he might have done, at his worst and lowest moments, had he somehow had the power to act on his dark impulses - well, then, those other dwarves have also had moments of darkness and doubt, for into every life a little tree root must grow, and they too must be held accountable. If Durkon is evil because of his worst moment, all those other dwarves are equally evil, and equally deserving of Hel.

So I'm going to keep saying this: evil wants you believe you are no better than your worst moments, because that serves the purposes of evil. If you want to act like a selfish bastard, what better way to get away with it than to claim we're all selfish when we think we can get away with it? And down that path lies darkness and ruin, for individuals and societies.
I don't disagree with this, i just think that Durkon's worst and lowest moment should be seen as such, and just because all he did because of it was wish eternal suffering on pretty much everybody slightly related to the problem in the name of his God (Which for him i see as very dark indeed) doesn't mean that he wouldn't have done more if he could at that moment.

[RyanW1019]

Did I miss the prophecy that caused Durkon to get kicked out of his home? Or was that in the prequel materials?

[Keltest]

Did I miss the prophecy that caused Durkon to get kicked out of his home? Or was that in the prequel materials?

Its in Origin of the PCs, which is conveniently for sale as a PDF now for near instant reading if you have the money to put towards it.

[SaintRidley]

The spirit has a point. You are who you are on your worst day, and anything else is a comforting lie you tell yourself.

But it's not true the way he means it. He means to say that your worst day is the day that defines you, and all your better days are lies designed to comfort you from facing that truth.

But really, you are who you are on your worst day. You are who you are on your best day. You are who you are all the days in between. Because you are the synthesis of who you are on all your days. And trying to deny that you are who you are on any of them, be they the best or worst days, is the comforting lie.

[Shining Wrath]

The spirit has a point. You are who you are on your worst day, and anything else is a comforting lie you tell yourself.

But it's not true the way he means it. He means to say that your worst day is the day that defines you, and all your better days are lies designed to comfort you from facing that truth.

But really, you are who you are on your worst day. You are who you are on your best day. You are who you are all the days in between. Because you are the synthesis of who you are on all your days. And trying to deny that who you are on any of them, be they the best or worst days, is the comforting lie.

I'm going to go back to the climax of the book "A Wizard of Earthsea". Sparrowhawk frees himself by embracing his own darkness, naming it with his true name, and accepting it as part of himself. By naming his darkness "Ged" as the darkness spoke his name, he gained power over it, and became whole.

I'm guessing that this truth is going to come up soon. It would be quite the plot twist if Durkon realizes he can destroy / weaken / distract the HPoH by showing him good memories - Durkon when he met his own high standards, Durkon making his mother proud, Durkon heroically saving Roy, Durkon sacrificing himself to save the rest of the Order. It would be a little hokey, a little trite, and the Giant is quite capable of doing it in a manner that makes me cry like a baby. :smallsmile:

[Insane Trystane]

"You are who you are on your very worst day, Trystane."

I know it's just a comic, but...

[Lheticus]

...

I haven't seen such an accurate, tear-inducing pwning like that in ages. Unholy ****. Just...unholy ****.

[Rahaii]

Wow, the HPoH is a magnificent jerk.

I don't really buy everything he is saying. Everyone has their dark days, but their dark days do not define who they are.

It's pretty clear from his reaction that Durkon feels guilty about what he said, but I don't think he meant it - who hasn't spoken out of anger before? (Durkon has also previously lost his temper in the comic.) Durkon had his entire life ripped out from under him, for reasons that appeared to be nothing more than spite since he was offered no explanation whatsoever. He was thrown out of his home without a known cause, and his mother apparently abandoned when she needed him - he probably saw that as an Evil act in itself and quite dishonorable. Even then, I don't think he really wanted them sent to Hel.

If he had meant what he said, I think we would have seen an alignment change at the bare minimum as he let the statement consume him. However, HPoH is twisting the meaning of that dark memory into something far more sinister. I am eagerly anticipating how this changes Durkon's perspective, if it does at all.

I am reminded of Inside Out and the core memories mechanic. This is something that's very important to Durkon's personality - IMO definitely a core memory. From his reaction, definitely a mixture of angry/sad. However, it is definitely not his only core memory and he doesn't appear to have let it consume him previously, despite what HPoH has said.

[happycrow]

On Durkon's worst day, he felt sorry for his mother and angry that she was going to be left alone and feeling miserable.

::golfclap::

[Bulldog Psion]

I'm reasonably sure that Durkon could have done a lot worse than say "to hell with you" to the dwarves. Saying in the first place that he would have done more if he could is rather unfair; like everyone, he can only be judged on what he does, not what he would do if impossible situation 1, 2, or 3 were in place.

He's accountable for what he might have done if he had done it? That's an absolutely ridiculous standard.

Secondly, he could have inflicted quite a bit of harm on the dwarves if he wanted to. Skulk around the edges of their civilization and murder lone travelers; sneak back and sabotage stuff to try to cause massive, lethal tunnel collapses; provided information to hostile humanoid tribes allowing them to bypass defenses and inflict large amounts of damage with raids.

Instead, he let off some steam in a way that did absolutely no harm to anyone, then headed off to human lands, intolerably bad non-dwarven beer, and adventure with Roy.

I'm having a hard time as seeing Lurky Corpsewhiskers' statements as being anything but hot air disproven clearly by the event, rather than the opposite.

[xyzchyx]

Waxing overly philosophical....

"You are who you are on your worst day" is the blatant lie... Human beings, and I would imagine this to be no less true for dwarves, are complex creatures that learn, grow, evolve, and adapt with the passage of time.... while it may be argued that at that exact moment, that was who Durkon really was, it does not necessarily follow that is still who Durkon is now. It wasn't lies that he was any better of a person than he was on that day that numbed the pain of what he felt, it was simply the passage of time. The pain of feeling abandoned by his kin eventually diminished, and with it the anger and hatred he felt in a moment of weakness that any mortal might have felt in similar circumstances, no matter how righteous they might otherwise be. Durkon certainly does not continually feel those things in the present, and if anything, upon being reminded of them, probably feels deeply ashamed that he had ever even felt the way that he did. There is no doubt in my mind, that is really *NOT* who Durkon is.