Blood Money Abuse

[Sacrieur]

There is a spell by the name of Blood Money (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money) found in Rise of the Runelords. I intend to make an argument why this spell should be banned from your game and that the creator had very low system mastery.

The spell in question is fairly overpowered, and the more I looked into it, the more ridiculous it became.

To start, the tradeoff is exceptionally low, and you can heal the damage caused to you with lesser vigor and a simple low level healing spell, both of which have no cost. The second, and more important fact is that there's no clause to prevent you from using the spell with Fabricate. By using this spell you can generate as many items as you want for no raw material cost, requiring only a few low level spell slots a day.

Further, the author demonstrates a lack of thought:

"(so a component worth 500–999 gp costs a total of 2 points, 1,000–1,500 costs 3, etc.)"

When it should read 1,000–1,499.

And

"For example, a sorcerer with the spell stoneskin prepared"

when sorcerers don't prepare spells. That's a pretty big mistake. I couldn't even fathom how that could have gotten into print.

---

In any case, I've since banned the spell and everything that comes from the book is subject to my own approval. I just wanted to let everyone know they should probably do the same if they're inclined to rubber stamp everything because it's official Paizo content. That's not a mistake I'll be making again, that's for sure.

[legomaster00156]

Yes, this is a hilariously abusable spell.

[Second Arrow]

Just chipping in briefly:
#1: Blood Money is found in one singular place in the RotRL campaign, if I remember correctly - in the spell book of the BBEG of the entire 6-book campaign - a 20th level Wizard. Ergo, access to the spell should be difficult, if not straight up nigh-impossible, by any stretch of an argument.

#2: I don't think Lesser Vigour is a PF spell.

#3: I really don't hope that the 1 gp difference and whether Sorcerers prepare spells or not, was the straw that broke the camel's back in regards of the inherent ridiculousness that is Blood Money.


But yes. Blood Money is ridiculous for what it does - enough that even I, who consider myself a lover of every advantage that's possible to squeeze out of a given circumstance - wouldn't touch this spell with an 11' pole. Good call.

[Fouredged Sword]

Just chipping in briefly:
#1: Blood Money is found in one singular place in the RotRL campaign, if I remember correctly - in the spell book of the BBEG of the entire 6-book campaign - a 20th level Wizard. Ergo, access to the spell should be difficult, if not straight up nigh-impossible, by any stretch of an argument.


I nabbed it on my Shaman through one of the Lore Hexs to facilitate free reincarnations in a game I am currently playing. This is balanced somewhat by the DM removing restoration and it's versions (and all other ability damage healing spells).

And we are all incurably sick.

Access being used as a reason that a spell isn't broken is like saying that the rules work by DM fiat. Yes, you are not wrong per say, but that doesn't solve the problem.

[Sacrieur]

Just chipping in briefly:
#1: Blood Money is found in one singular place in the RotRL campaign, if I remember correctly - in the spell book of the BBEG of the entire 6-book campaign - a 20th level Wizard. Ergo, access to the spell should be difficult, if not straight up nigh-impossible, by any stretch of an argument.

The spell in and of itself has no restrictions.



#2: I don't think Lesser Vigour is a PF spell.

I meant lesser restoration.



#3: I really don't hope that the 1 gp difference and whether Sorcerers prepare spells or not, was the straw that broke the camel's back in regards of the inherent ridiculousness that is Blood Money.

Nah, the abuse is more than enough. It was just a way to point out that the spell was created without putting much thought into it at all.

[Nibbens]

I'm just curious. Can someone give me an example of the ridiculousness that can be achieved with blood money, assuming a wizard with a 12 strength?

[Fouredged Sword]

I once set up a TO build to abuse blood money to mass produce simulacrums. You are one level shy of that one. You take 1+1HD of strength damage and produce a copy of yourself that you can control for free with no control cap.

If you can't think up a use for 2 6HD copies of yourself a day, you are not trying.

Animating the dead is also an option.

[Sacrieur]

I'm just curious. Can someone give me an example of the ridiculousness that can be achieved with blood money, assuming a wizard with a 12 strength?

A wizard with 12 Strength could reduce his strength score to 1, meaning he has 11 points of strength to spend. The formula for determining the most gp you can use is (500*Strength - 1). If you permit him to cast Bull's Strength first, then it's 15 points of strength to spend.

So the Wizard can then use 5499 gp worth of material to craft. Using the Fabricate spell, that means you make an item worth 11,998 gp. Now cast lesser restoration a few times (or hell, just craft a wand of it) to heal the ability damage and then cure light wounds a few times to heal. Tell the fighter he can enjoy his new Mithral full plate, free of charge.

[Boci]

I'm just curious. Can someone give me an example of the ridiculousness that can be achieved with blood money, assuming a wizard with a 12 strength?

Well you can comfortable go down to 8 strength, only melee touch spells really suffer. SO are there any spells you would cast were it not for the expensive material component? If yes, then you can now.

[Fouredged Sword]

A wizard with 12 Strength could reduce his strength score to 1, meaning he has 11 points of strength to spend. The formula for determining the most gp you can use is (500*Strength - 1). If you permit him to cast Bull's Strength first, then it's 15 points of strength to spend.

So the Wizard can then use 5499 gp worth of material to craft. Using the Fabricate spell, that means you make an item worth 11,998 gp. Now cast lesser restoration a few times (or hell, just craft a wand of it) to heal the ability damage and then cure light wounds a few times to heal. Tell the fighter he can enjoy his new Mithral full plate, free of charge.

IF the party cleric is standing by to support you he can cure ALL the ability damage in a single casting of restoration. You need 1000gp worth of diamond dust.

Fabricate can make diamond dust and it doesn't have a clause stating you cannot make spell components. You first fabricate up to your strength score's GP worth of dust, then you start cranking out items of whatever value you like. Just cast from a prone position and have the cleric restore your stat to functional with a readied action.

[Nibbens]

A wizard with 12 Strength could reduce his strength score to 1, meaning he has 11 points of strength to spend. The formula for determining the most gp you can use is (500*Strength - 1). If you permit him to cast Bull's Strength first, then it's 15 points of strength to spend.

So the Wizard can then use 5499 gp worth of material to craft. Using the Fabricate spell, that means you make an item worth 11,998 gp. Now cast lesser restoration a few times (or hell, just craft a wand of it) to heal the ability damage and then cure light wounds a few times to heal. Tell the fighter he can enjoy his new Mithral full plate, free of charge.

Okay, Bulls Str on round 1
Blood money, followed by Fabricate on the chunk of adamantine which appears there.
Followed by a week or more to roll the craft check (the casting time of fabricate varies and requires a craft check to create the item in question)

That's an advantage id the wizard has craft weapons and armor (the non magic kind), yes. But...

Also, Fabricate components cost "the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created." So i don't see how 5499 turns into 11,998. How does it?

[Sayt]

I'm just curious. Can someone give me an example of the ridiculousness that can be achieved with blood money, assuming a wizard with a 12 strength?

There are several tricks, one of which, IIRC which allowed a wizard to get their strength to the low 50s and then get their free wishes, using stuff like the Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess.

[Boci]

Also, Fabricate components cost "the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created." So i don't see how 5499 turns into 11,998. How does it?

Isn't the raw material cost to craft a non-magical item 1/3 of the items market value?

[Nibbens]

Isn't the raw material cost to craft a non-magical item 1/3 of the items market value?

Ah! There it is! Thanks! So technically it;s 16497

[Sacrieur]

Isn't the raw material cost to craft a non-magical item 1/3 of the items market value?

It's one half.

[Boci]

It's one half.

Isn't that only for magical items? I thought nonmagical was 1/3.

[Nibbens]

Isn't that only for magical items? I thought nonmagical was 1/3.

It's 1/3 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft). :)

[Sacrieur]

It's 1/3 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft). :)

Sweet, even better then.

[Nibbens]

There are several tricks, one of which, IIRC which allowed a wizard to get their strength to the low 50s and then get their free wishes, using stuff like the Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess.

The Blood reservoir I can follow, but how does it get to the low 50's?

And lastly, I've been on this site a while, I've seen the term IIRC several times but... I have no idea what it means.

Sorry, newbie questions. lol.

[Boci]

And lastly, I've been on this site a while, I've seen the term IIRC several times but... I have no idea what it means.

If I Recall Correctly.

[Nibbens]

If I Recall Correctly.

Wow. I feels dumb now. lol. Thanks though.

[Sayt]

The Blood reservoir I can follow, but how does it get to the low 50's?

And lastly, I've been on this site a while, I've seen the term IIRC several times but... I have no idea what it means.

Sorry, newbie questions. lol.

If I Recall Correctly, just a general disclaimer that I was working off memory.

And here's the recipe, from Anzyr (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p569?Blood-Money-Wish-almost-free-wish-Am-I#40)over on the paizo forums:

9 Base STR
+10 size Form of the Dragon 3
+10 morale Blood Rage
+2 profane Succubus Boon (Ideally off a Simulacrum, but a quick summon works to).
+6 enhancement (Belt of Physical Perfection, make it yourself on the cheap.)
+8 inherent Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess is a +8 Inherent option for 2k Price on the cheap.)
+6 Ring of Inner Fortitude (effectively) =
51 or 25,000 worth of material components and 1 STR left (cause it would suck to fall to 0 while casting).

Now, this is, IMHO, an unreasonable measure to go to, but it does nicely illustrate the abuse you can get out of Blood Money if you set your mind to it.

[Nibbens]

If I Recall Correctly, just a general disclaimer that I was working off memory.

And here's the recipe, from Anzyr (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p569?Blood-Money-Wish-almost-free-wish-Am-I#40)over on the paizo forums:


Now, this is, IMHO, an unreasonable measure to go to, but it does nicely illustrate the abuse you can get out of Blood Money if you set your mind to it.

And, there we have unlimited wishes...

Yup. I'm sold. Blood Money is Broken.

[Snowbluff]

Free Simulacra are great. >:)

[icefractal]

I don't think you even need to boost your Strength; you just need a friendly Cleric.

1: I, a Wizard with Strength 8, casts Blood Money, producing 25k gp worth of diamond dust. I take a bunch of Strength damage and drop to Strength 0, unable to move.
2: Cleric casts Lesser Restoration, returning me to Strength 1-4.
3: On the next round, I cast Wish.

Lesser Restoration takes three rounds, but that should be fine if you start casting it ahead of time. Or stick it in a spell-storing weapon.

[Snowbluff]

I don't think you even need to boost your Strength; you just need a friendly Cleric.

1: I, a Wizard with Strength 8, casts Blood Money, producing 25k gp worth of diamond dust. I take a bunch of Strength damage and drop to Strength 0, unable to move.
2: Cleric casts Lesser Restoration, returning me to Strength 1-4.
3: On the next round, I cast Wish.

Or have your familiar do it from a wand.

[The Random NPC]

If I Recall Correctly, just a general disclaimer that I was working off memory.

And here's the recipe, from Anzyr (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p569?Blood-Money-Wish-almost-free-wish-Am-I#40)over on the paizo forums:


Now, this is, IMHO, an unreasonable measure to go to, but it does nicely illustrate the abuse you can get out of Blood Money if you set your mind to it.

There's also Hearth of the Mammoth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/heart-of-the-mammoth) (+8 enhancement) and the Courageous (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/courageous) weapon enchantment (increases morale bonus by 1/2 weapon enchantment).

[Sayt]

There's also Hearth of the Mammoth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/heart-of-the-mammoth) (+8 enhancement) and the Courageous (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/courageous) weapon enchantment (increases morale bonus by 1/2 weapon enchantment).

Courageous Weapons got dragged outside and beaten with the nerf bat.

[The Random NPC]

Courageous Weapons got dragged outside and beaten with the nerf bat.

Huh, PFSRD is normally more on the ball with things like that. It's been 3 months and the description hasn't changed.

[Sayt]

Huh, PFSRD is normally more on the ball with things like that. It's been 3 months and the description hasn't changed.

The relevant FAQ is here (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gg#v5748eaic9tf0), for what it's worth.

[Psyren]

As I mentioned in the "Swift Action Spells" thread, some of these tricks don't work by RAW. Blood Money requires the spell you're paying for to be cast "in that same round." Spells with a casting time longer than 1 round thus will not work with it - that includes Simulacrum (12 hours), Restoration (3 rounds) and any large Fabrications (greater than 10 cubic feet.)

Blood Money -> Diamond Dust -> Wish will work though. You'll need 11 Strength.

[Snowbluff]

Blood Money requires the spell you're paying for to be cast "in that same round."



You cast blood money just before casting another spell.
You're casting Simulacrum that same turn you use blood money. It's in a state of being cast.

[Psyren]

You're casting Simulacrum that same turn you use blood money. It's in a state of being cast.

But you're not casting it in that same round because it takes multiple rounds to finish casting. Blood money says you must cast the spell in that same round, not "start casting" the spell in that same round, and then finish whenever.

[Boci]

any large Fabrications (greater than 10 cubic feet.)

So nothing heavier than 2.2 tones, assuming you are using iron. Relevant information, but that's a pretty high cap. Shouldn't matter for any equipment you were going to wear.

[Psyren]

Actually, thinking about it further - Fabricate is a funky one to try and work with Blood Money. Fabricate is a unique spell in that its material component and target are one and the same. You can't target the Fabricate spell onto the Blood Money components because they don't exist at all until you start casting, which you can't do until you've targeted the spell. It's a chicken and egg problem.

[Boci]

Actually, thinking about it further - Fabricate is a funky one to try and work with Blood Money. Fabricate is a unique spell in that its material component and target are one and the same. You can't target the Fabricate spell onto the Blood Money components because they don't exist at all until you start casting, which you can't do until you've targeted the spell. It's a chicken and egg problem.

Don't you cast blood money first, create the comportment, then in the same round cast fabricate?

[Psyren]

Don't you cast blood money first, create the comportment, then in the same round cast fabricate?

You cast blood money, and then while casting the second spell in that round, the blood transforms into the component you need for that spell. The problem is that the component of Fabricate is also its target, making it unique. You basically have nothing to cast the Fabricate on until you cast it.

I think you could make this work by having the material handy, targeting that, but then the blood turns into the component and you end up keeping both. So Blood Money can still get you free Fabricate (for 10 cu. ft. or less, anyway), if you have the material at hand to start with.

[Fouredged Sword]

Don't you cast blood money first, create the comportment, then in the same round cast fabricate?

The wording is weird. The components change from blood to specific components during the casting of your second spell. Technically you could target the blood itself with fabricate. Normally if you targeted the wrong object, the spell would fail. Blood money kicks in and fixes the problem as it occurs.

[Psyren]

The wording is weird. The components change from blood to specific components during the casting of your second spell. Technically you could target the blood itself with fabricate.

You can target the blood, but it doesn't become {other component} until you start Fabricating, thus you'd just be turning blood into more blood.

[Telonius]

I'm sensing some hilarious applications of this, on a Cancer Mage.

[andreww]

Yes blood money is hilariously broken.

You want to get a high strength even more easily. Subdue something big, strong and stupid like a Giant, magic jar into it, add on your various bit of gear and inflict all of the strength damage on your puppet.

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, find a friendly Life Leech Vitalist. They can move the strength damage to another target.

[Sacrieur]

As I mentioned in the "Swift Action Spells" thread, some of these tricks don't work by RAW. Blood Money requires the spell you're paying for to be cast "in that same round." Spells with a casting time longer than 1 round thus will not work with it - that includes Simulacrum (12 hours), Restoration (3 rounds) and any large Fabrications (greater than 10 cubic feet.)

Blood Money -> Diamond Dust -> Wish will work though. You'll need 11 Strength.


Then here is your question: If you fail to cast a spell with a casting time of greater than one round in the first round of casting, do you get any material components back?

[DarkSonic1337]

Polymorph into something with high strength (like an anthromorphic great white whale :p). Buff strength further with spells.

Enjoy free wishes.

[Psyren]

Then here is your question: If you fail to cast a spell with a casting time of greater than one round in the first round of casting, do you get any material components back?

No, once you start casting the component is gone; you haven't finished casting the spell, so it's treated as interrupted, and interruptions make you lose the spell, which is treated as "casting it to no effect." Thus the material component has already been annihilated.

Note however that you can use Blood Money -> Wish to duplicate Simulacrum in one round, though doing so will require you to have enough strength to produce the 25k for the Wish plus whatever you need for the Simulacrum on top of that.

[Sacrieur]

No, once you start casting the component is gone; you haven't finished casting the spell, so it's treated as interrupted, and interruptions make you lose the spell, which is treated as "casting it to no effect." Thus the material component has already been annihilated.

Blood Money only requires that the components be used as spell components; if it's been used as the spell component already, then I'm failing to see the problem.

[Psyren]

Blood Money only requires that the components be used as spell components; if it's been used as the spell component already, then I'm failing to see the problem.

The problem is that Blood Money works as spell components for a spell you cast in that round. If it takes you longer than that, you haven't cast the spell in that round, you've cast it over the course of multiple rounds.

[Fouredged Sword]

This is a symantec issue that can be read both ways. It depends on the tense and usage of the word cast. Different DM's will rightly and correctly read the spell to have different restrictions.

[Sacrieur]

The problem is that Blood Money works as spell components for a spell you cast in that round. If it takes you longer than that, you haven't cast the spell in that round, you've cast it over the course of multiple rounds.

I think that's a reasonable, if unintended, reading.



This is a symantec issue that can be read both ways. It depends on the tense and usage of the word cast. Different DM's will rightly and correctly read the spell to have different restrictions.

"Cast" is past tense. As silly as it may seem, the author worded it in such a way that you would have to finish casting before the round ends.

[Jack_Simth]

A wizard with 12 Strength could reduce his strength score to 1, meaning he has 11 points of strength to spend. The formula for determining the most gp you can use is (500*Strength - 1). If you permit him to cast Bull's Strength first, then it's 15 points of strength to spend.

So the Wizard can then use 5499 gp worth of material to craft. Using the Fabricate spell, that means you make an item worth 11,998 gp. Now cast lesser restoration a few times (or hell, just craft a wand of it) to heal the ability damage and then cure light wounds a few times to heal. Tell the fighter he can enjoy his new Mithral full plate, free of charge.
Easy solution for Fabricate:
The spell is a Target spell, not an effect spell. The M line is just clairification that you can't re-use the same materials over & over. You cast blood money to get your materials, cast Fabricate to make things... and one round later, it all puddles, because the underlying targeted substance is now gone.

Limited Wish for Permanency, however....

[Psyren]

"Cast" is past tense. As silly as it may seem, the author worded it in such a way that you would have to finish casting before the round ends.

I don't think it's silly at all - every standard action, full-round action and even 1-round action casting time spell does work with Blood Money as written. That's a huge amount of legal combinations.

As stated above, this also means you can Blood Money Wish, which also means than any spell 8th-level and lower regardless of casting time can be made to work with Blood Money.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, it is past tense. It can also be read as past perfect. This is the point of contention. English does not handle some of the nuances of tenses due to being stitched together from multiple languages that mostly use much more firmly defined tenses.

[Sacrieur]

I don't think it's silly at all - every standard action, full-round action and even 1-round action casting time spell does work with Blood Money as written. That's a huge amount of legal combinations.

As stated above, this also means you can Blood Money Wish, which also means than any spell 8th-level and lower regardless of casting time can be made to work with Blood Money.

It's silly in the sense that it probably wasn't intended by the author.


Yes, it is past tense. It can also be read as past perfect. This is the point of contention. English does not handle some of the nuances of tenses due to being stitched together from multiple languages that mostly use much more firmly defined tenses.

Past perfect would require "had cast".

Even if it did say that, it wouldn't change the fact that it happened within the round you started casting.

[Psyren]

It's silly in the sense that it probably wasn't intended by the author.

Why wouldn't it be? It cuts down on abuse potential, albeit not going nearly far enough to make the spell balanced for most groups.

[Sacrieur]

Why wouldn't it be? It cuts down on abuse potential, albeit not going nearly far enough to make the spell balanced for most groups.

1) Because the author clearly didn't put enough thought into it to word it appropriately, evidenced by the two obvious and glaring mistakes I pointed out. It's highly unlikely they've attached a subtly worded clause to prevent abuse but didn't know sorcerers are spontaneous casters.

2) The wording isn't very clear, as there are much better ways to word it such as, "When you cast a spell with a casting time of one round or less in the same round..."

Given the awful editing job, it's more likely a coincidence than by design. I wouldn't be surprised if the author thought spells with a casting time of one round finish casting on the same turn you start them.

[Psyren]

I agree it could be clearer, but it's a moot point regardless. You say the spell is sloppily worded so it's likely he didn't think that implication through, while I say that reading tones the spell down (a bit) so it's likely that he did. Without the designer himself (or herself) chiming in, RAI is impossible to determine here until they get around to FAQ-ing it.

[Sacrieur]

I agree it could be clearer, but it's a moot point regardless. You say the spell is sloppily worded so it's likely he didn't think that implication through, while I say that reading tones the spell down (a bit) so it's likely that he did. Without the designer himself (or herself) chiming in, RAI is impossible to determine here until they get around to FAQ-ing it.

Even if it's FAQ'd to cover all exploits, it doesn't change the fact the spell is way overpowered to start. :p

[Psyren]

The concept is workable - hurt yourself to create material components in a pinch. The problem is that it doesn't hurt you nearly enough.

If it did something like 3.5's Ability Burn, it might be more usable. You can still get that Wish out of nowhere if you desperately need it, but you can't just wave a wand to fix it and be on your merry way, you have to deal with the consequences until you can rest.

[Boci]

The concept is workable - hurt yourself to create material components in a pinch. The problem is that it doesn't hurt you nearly enough.

If it did something like 3.5's Ability Burn, it might be more usable. You can still get that Wish out of nowhere if you desperately need it, but you can't just wave a wand to fix it and be on your merry way, you have to deal with the consequences until you can rest.

I think a cap on the value of the material component it can form would be better, it doesn't punish people for over using the spell (which they may want to do for fluff reasons if nothing else), and prevents free wish, which is problematic even if you limit how many times it can happen.

[Psyren]

Or a soft cap - say, if you get above a certain GP value (e.g. 10k), you start losing double the attribute, or you take the hit to all physical stats instead of just Str.

[Boci]

Or a soft cap - say, if you get above a certain GP value (e.g. 10k), you start losing double the attribute, or you take the hit to all physical stats instead of just Str.

Certainly makes sense. Blood loss is usually con loss by default, but that makes the spell less attractive for casual users, so your solution is a nice compromise.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think it needs to be broken into several spells based on the amount of GP it is capped at creating.

Lesser Blood Money is fine as a level 1 spell. Let it make up to 25 gold in resources and let it cap at 2 points of strength damage or if you want to hurt con, one point of con damage.

Blood money should be a 3rd level spell. Let it generate up to 500 gp worth of resources and deal 6 (or 3) points of attribute damage.

Greater blood money should be capped at 2000gp and be a 5th level spell. Let it deal 8 (or 4) points of attribute damage.