Starcraft 2 officially announced

[kyz]

Much of the gaming community has been waiting for this since Blizzard made mention of a huge announcement at the Worldwide Invitational in Korea and they delivered. Starcraft 2 is official.

Up to the minute coverage from the floor (http://pc.ign.com/articles/788/788627p1.html)

Question is: how excited are you?

[Setra]

Wait.. is it official on the Blizzard Site?

Edit: After checking the site that's a bit of a silly question. I'm STILL skeptical though. I don't see him actually say it was announced.


2:52 - Showing WC3 footage. When they showed Diablo footage the Deckard Cain "stay a while an listen" line got a cheer from the crowd.Awesome

2:34 - Now they're introducing the professional gamers who'll be participating in the StarCraft and WarCraft 3 tourneys. More fireworks. No fatalities.

2:30 - Ok, fireworks just went off. Nobody is dead...yet.Paranoid much?

[theKOT]

YES!!!!!! WOOOOO!!!!!

It is official, all sources(Kotaku and IGN) are confirming. Finally! I'm am going to buy this game so fast, the money I exchange for it will light on fire.

I promised myself I wasn't gonna cry....

[Cybren]

GADZOOKS!
EGADS?!?!
...
gadzuki?

[kyz]

It was officially announced under the 3:00 update. THey are showing off the gameplay and new units right now.

[Setra]

I'm afraid to get it.. :\ Honestly...

What if it sucks? <----Paranoid

[Imrahil]

With any new game, there runs a risk of it being, let's face it, horribly bad. But Blizzard has had a good track record so far. Plus, it's Starcraft. It just can't suck.

[Setra]

With any new game, there runs a risk of it being, let's face it, horribly bad. But Blizzard has had a good track record so far. Plus, it's Starcraft. It just can't suck.
I realize this, I've never met a Blizzard game I've disliked...

But I think I'll wait, just in case.

[kyz]

The head developer's list of credentials is pretty rocking as far as RTS go. Battle for Middle Earth I & II as well as Command and Conquer Generals and Red Alert 2.

[Cybren]

Blizzard is willing to cancel their games after they already finished them because it didn't meet their standards. I don't think that a sub-par sequel is likely. A valid concern still, but as justified as if it were a different company there.

[Krade]

The thing is, even if it does suck, I'm far more interseted in the continuation of the story. A decade is far too long to find out if Raynor actually gets to kill Kerrigan and, to a lesser extent, Mengsk.

While Kerrigan being killed is somewhat unlikely, I am quite confident in the possibility of Mengsk biting the big one.

[Setra]

Blizzard is willing to cancel their games after they already finished them because it didn't meet their standards. I don't think that a sub-par sequel is likely. A valid concern still, but as justified as if it were a different company there.
Yeah but my standards are higher.

Also, I can't afford many games, and it would have to be a bit better than the original to warrant me buying it

[theKOT]

Yeah but my standards are higher.

Also, I can't afford many games, and it would have to be a bit better than the original to warrant me buying it
Hold up. You are saying that a new game of the same level as the original SC doesn't warrant a purchase from you? Wow.

[Setra]

Hold up. You are saying that a new game of the same level as the original SC doesn't warrant a purchase from you? Wow.
RTS is my second least favorite genre

And in a year I usually only have enough for about 6 games.

[LiteYear]

The problem with Starcraft II is that it's a sequel to arguably the best RTS ever made. Even if SCII is a great game, it will be compared to SC right of of the box. If it doesn't have the "feel" of the original, I believe the first impression will be disappointment. That said, I'm going to buy it when I can get my hands on it.

[Nibleswick]

RTS is my second least favorite genre

And in a year I usually only have enough for about 6 games.

But...But...But it's Starcraft:smalleek:

[Gralamin]

*is convulsing on the floor. You can hear faint whisperings of Starcraft, and Nuclear Launch Detected*

[Kojiro Kakita]

From the announcement, it sounds as if it will be similar to DoW.

But to all those people who doubted my korean reading skills when I said starcraft 2 was announced three weeks ago, I now say "I TOLD YOU SO".

Okay end rant.

[Setra]

But...But...But it's Starcraft:smalleek:
God of War, God of War 2, Xenosaga 3, Guild Wars: Nightfall, Oblivion... I'll be getting those before anything.

I've said it in another thread, as well, I never was too into RTS, I just happened to like Starcraft, I'll get if.. well if my friends get it.

That's the only reason I got the original.

I'm never well liked by Starcraft fans

[Kojiro Kakita]

Anyone else mad that the Koreans have known for a while, but Blizzard only told America recently?

[theKOT]

The problem with Starcraft II is that it's a sequel to arguably the best RTS ever made. Even if SCII is a great game, it will be compared to SC right of of the box. If it doesn't have the "feel" of the original, I believe the first impression will be disappointment. That said, I'm going to buy it when I can get my hands on it.
From IGN's Liveblog:

As for initial StarCraft 2 impressions - the game looked very similar to SC1 - nearly identical user interface - graphic styles and unit proportions nearly the same - more flashy lighting effects but it seems like Blizzard didn't want to mess with SC's underlying formula very much. The screens they showed the video on didn't display the video very clearly, unfortunately, but the game still looked pretty with some nice animations.
Sounds like the feel will be very similar indeed.

[Imrahil]

Not really. We're all still going to get the game. We just have to wait...and wait...and...wait.

[Nibleswick]

God of War, God of War 2, Xenosaga 3, Guild Wars: Nightfall... I'll be getting those before anything.

I've said it in another thread, as well, I never was too into RTS, I just happened to like Starcraft, I'll get if.. well if my friends get it.

That's the only reason I got the original.

I'm never well liked by Starcraft fans

I am dumbfounded, speechless, at a loss for word, struck dumb,the fountain from which my words spring has dried up, the silence of my voice is deafening, word fail me, I am without speech, my silver tounge is paralyized, I have been shocked into quiet contemplation... I could go on like this for quite a while, but it would bore everyone.:smallbiggrin:

[Morrandir]

I'm preordering...

the preorder...


I don't care if it's among the worst gaming disappointments ever, I NEED TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS NEXT!!!

[Gralamin]

*Drolls at teh screenshots*

[Demented]

Part of my brain doesn't want to believe.
It must be a hoax.
It Must Be.
It Cannot Be!

GENERAL PROTECTION FAULT

[Sereneprophet]

Yeah I dunno, I have a feeling that unless its the "perfect game" there is gonna be more bitching than...hell there has ever been.

Especially in Korea. I mean, just imagine...its like their national sport, and then II ends up not living up to this amazing expectation, and BLAM, World War III.

Yeah, its extreme, but I bet ya they would do it if it sucked :P.

I figure so long as its at least as good as the original in terms of gameplay and story, but with prettier graphics, i'm cool. If it exceeds, then awesome.

[Krytha]

SC2 is so officially official that unofficial isn't even a word anymore. I cried during that gameplay video its been so long. The only thing that makes me sad (and not so happy I'm sad sort of thing) is that my computer wont be able to run that behemoth of glory. Maybe my brothers will, but this thing can barely handle a gimped WCIII.

Setra! What! That list of games is...!! SC2! SC2!!!!

Tassadarrrrnooooooooowhyyyyy

[Lord Herman]

Woo! Awesomeness! I must admit I'm not an obsessive Starcraft fan (gasp), but this looks very spiffy. So unless they've secretly turned it into an MMO, I'll definitely be buying it.

edit: Just watched the gameplay video. Now I'm definitely absolutely certainly buying it.

[Ra-Tiel]

Question is: how excited are you?
Considering the gameplay videos available here (http://tvpot.daum.net/theme/ThemeView.do?themeid=122&lu=m_mono_1), I'm not too enthusiastic. It's just too "comical" and too "colorful" for my personal taste. :smallannoyed:

[TMTree]

It's good to see Blizzard are still making RTS games- I was worried this would be a Starcraft MMO.

This has a large awesomeness potential, and given their track record, it should at the least be an excellent game. Not sure about the graphics-looks a bit Warcrafty (i.e. cartoony) to me, but I guess its just time to wait and see.

[Jibar]

Hell, It's About Time (http://www.wow-europe.com/en/splash_starcraft2.htm)

:biggrin:

Now maybe they can finish Ghost!

[Elidyr]

The head developer's list of credentials is pretty rocking as far as RTS go. Battle for Middle Earth I & II as well as Command and Conquer Generals and Red Alert 2.

Now I'm scared. Really scared. Considering the guys that made the Blizzard games all left, I only hope the new people dont screw up what could be the most awesome-ness-test multiplayer game evar.

[Emperor Ing]

:smalleek: Ok...id better steer clear of game stores, we could have a PS3-esque rampage, in which people actually die. They went to Korea for a reason ya know.

[Ailurus]

Darn you, Blizzard. Why must you take my money away like this?

<sigh>

Guess it really is time to upgrade the computer.

[Lord Herman]

Okay, I just saw both trailers, and now I'm going to buy it even more. Don't ask how.

[Magnvo]

The minute SC2 was announced, I swear I could hear millions of Koreans splooging themselves in unison.

[Morrandir]

Jeez, reading up on some of the Protoss units. Mobile freaking pylons? Can you imagine the strategic opportunities that open with JUST that? Not to mention they also act as a transport.

Can't wait to see what the other races get to play with...

[Kojiro Kakita]

The minute SC2 was announced, I swear I could hear millions of Koreans splooging themselves in unison.

Well, the Koreas were alerted about two weeks ago........so either the sound took a long time to travel here, or you can hear things through time.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

I just had a craft-gasm

[Revlid]

Eh, I'll pass, thanks. I've yet to get my hands on DoW: Dark Crusade, let alone 40,000Clone 2.

[Driderman]

I'd rather be sailing...

[Archonic Energy]

*is convulsing on the floor. You can hear faint whisperings of Starcraft, and Nuclear Launch Detected*

in the words of my Avatar...

"POWER OVERWHELMING!!!"


the Vids look good... though i suppose they should!

i haven't seen an Archon yet... :smallfrown:

[Reinforcements]

Eh, I'll pass, thanks. I've yet to get my hands on DoW: Dark Crusade, let alone 40,000Clone 2.
Games Workshop and its fans just need to accept that Blizzard stole your stuff and you're never getting it back. They crossed the border and fenced it for vast amounts of cash years ago. It's time to let it go.

[Emperor Ing]

The minute SC2 was announced, I swear I could hear millions of Koreans splooging themselves in unison.

Really? I thought i was the only one that heard that!


Especially in Korea. I mean, just imagine...its like their national sport, and then II ends up not living up to this amazing expectation, and BLAM, World War III. Sux for blizzard emplyees then!

[Ra-Tiel]

Games Workshop and its fans just need to accept that Blizzard stole your stuff and you're never getting it back. They crossed the border and fenced it for vast amounts of cash years ago. It's time to let it go.
Considering how "lawsuit-happy" GW usually is, I really can't understand why they didn't sue Blizzard's ass off, even more when it's that obvious that the Terrans are a Marine ripoff, and the Zerg were "borrowed" from the Tyranids. :smallannoyed:

And no, I don't play WH or WH40k. :smalltongue:

Anyways, I'm reserving final judgement for until after I have played the demo. And should there be no demo... --> :smallfurious: :smallwink:

[Jibar]

It's not as bad as some people think.
Sure, the basic ideas are the same. Military humans, absorbing monsters, religious zealot aliens.
Then Warcraft, humans vs orcs, all that jazz.
Each series though has progressed into something different from the other.
While the Space Marines stand strong, the Terrans are divided. As the Tyranids are commanded by one hivemind, the Zerg beckon to the call of individual leaders. The Elder are a dying race, while the Protoss are fighting back and winning.
Then with Warcraft, the orcs have proven to be something very different from the orcs of Warhammer. The demons are new, the elven races are different.
I kinda wish people would stop saying it's a rip off. They're a lot more different than you think.

[Ra-Tiel]

[...] I kinda wish people would stop saying it's a rip off. They're a lot more different than you think.
I was speaking of the visual representation. You just as well cannot almost 1-to-1 copy something and claim it was something different because you changed it's history or background. The power armors of Space Marines and Terran Marines are almost identical in looks. Same for zerglings and tyranid Gaunts.

[Indon]

in the words of my Avatar...

"POWER OVERWHELMING!!!"


the Vids look good... though i suppose they should!

i haven't seen an Archon yet... :smallfrown:

Wrong archon. Your archon is "Terror all-consuming!" *nods in sage SC fanboyism*

[Krytha]

I was speaking of the visual representation. You just as well cannot almost 1-to-1 copy something and claim it was something different because you changed it's history or background. The power armors of Space Marines and Terran Marines are almost identical in looks. Same for zerglings and tyranid Gaunts.

What? Space marines and terrans don't look anything alike. Unless GW just copyrighted bulky space armor and called it a day. Not to mention zerglings looked more animal like than gaunts and now seem to have become insects.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Tyranids and Zerg? Ripped off the Alien films

Power Armour? Ripped off Starship Troopers

Come on, Space Marines are elite geneticaly modified monastic soldiers, Terran Marines are cannon fodder brainwashed criminals.

Orcs? Lord of the Rings people, jeez...

Warcraft and Warhammer are both DnD ripoffs more than Warcraft is a Warhammer rip off. Warhammer Orcs don't ride wolves or worship demons.

Tyranid Raveners look like a Hydralisk rip off to me though.

I don't know if I'll buy this game. I still haven't bought Tiberium Wars yet.

[Cybren]

Considering how "lawsuit-happy" GW usually is, I really can't understand why they didn't sue Blizzard's ass off, even more when it's that obvious that the Terrans are a Marine ripoff, and the Zerg were "borrowed" from the Tyranids. :smallannoyed:

And no, I don't play WH or WH40k. :smalltongue:

Anyways, I'm reserving final judgement for until after I have played the demo. And should there be no demo... --> :smallfurious: :smallwink:
uhm probably because Starcraft was a reference and homage to science fiction as a whole, and drew from the same sources as Warhammer 40k?

Like, you know, Star Trek, Star Wars, Asimov, Dune, and most importantly, Starship Troopers, and Aliens?

[Revlid]

Tyranids and Zerg? Ripped off the Alien films

Certainly. In much the same way as the Alien films ripped off Lovecraft.


Come on, Space Marines are elite geneticaly modified monastic soldiers, Terran Marines are cannon fodder brainwashed criminals.

Space Marine (http://www.paintingclinic.com/images/operationpics/sm1.jpg)
Terran Marine (http://128.32.250.16/punkcraft/pictures/2004/marine.jpg)

Both are brainwashed soldiers stuck in bulky suits of powered armour.


Orcs? Lord of the Rings people, jeez...

1954 Lord of the Rings Orc (http://veged.ru/forlj/orc.jpg)
1975 Games Workshop Orc (http://www.warhammer.net/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/choppa08.jpg)
1994 Warcraft Orc (http://www.poster.net/world-of-warcraft/world-of-warcraft-orc-red-3701254.jpg)

You may notice two things:
1. There is a vast amount of difference between the Tolkein Orc and the Warhammer Orc.
2. There is no difference between the Warhammer Orc and the Warcraft Orc.

There is a reason for this. Namely, that Warcraft was not based entirely off generic fantasy, as you claim, but off Warhammer, which is based on a unique version of generic fantasy.


Warcraft and Warhammer are both DnD ripoffs more than Warcraft is a Warhammer rip off. Warhammer Orcs don't ride wolves or worship demons.

Warhammer Goblins and Hobgoblins ride wolves, and Demons/Daemons are somewhat different in that early Warcraft essentially merged the Chaos and Orc Warhammer concepts into one. And I fail to see how Warhammer is a DnD rip off.


Tyranid Raveners look like a Hydralisk rip off to me though.

Depsite the fact that Tyranids were first around in 1987, more than half a decade before Warcraft? :smallconfused:


Blizzard quite clearly "ripped off" Games Workshop both conceptually and visually with their original games.
As time has gone on the background of the races has drifted away from their cut-and-paste roots, but not far enough that any nit who's never heard of either of the franchises before can't pick up the similarities with a quick read-through. This problem is more pronounced in Starcraft, which has had fewer games and therefore less of a chance to evolve.

However much it changes, however, both of Blizzards universes owe a vast visual debt to their Games Workshop counterparts, and always will.

To conclude:
"This is my Warhammer! It cost 40k!"
-Dwarf Griffon Rider, Warcraft 3

[Solo]

Both are brainwashed soldiers stuck in bulky suits of powered armour.

And both are humans, with five fingers on each hand, and five toes on each foot.

and they both have four limbs and breath oxygen.

[Cybren]

Space marines with powered armor was in Starship Troopers, and the general presentation of the Terran Marines is similair ot the UNSC as well.
Also that picture is from Warcraft 3 and not Starcraft. It would be more fair to compare the actual games art.

[Ra-Tiel]

What? Space marines and terrans don't look anything alike. Unless GW just copyrighted bulky space armor and called it a day. Not to mention zerglings looked more animal like than gaunts and now seem to have become insects.
But the (http://fr.games-workshop.com/40k/space_marines/BloodAngels/peinture/PeindreSMBA/img/1b.jpg) similarities (http://modellbau-universe.eu/original/ay_2012.jpg) are hard (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/8/84/SmallNid.JPG) to deny (http://www.starcraft-overmind.ic.cz/Download/zergling.jpg), don't you agree?

And if you reread my post above, you'll see that I merely expressed my amazement that GW has not filed any lawsuits against Blizzard, considering how quick GW is with lawyers at hand if someone even as much as looks at their IP.

In no way I stated that Blizzard should be sued or something.

[Cybren]

It's probably because Blizzard, and more importantly, Vivendi Universal, are a bit bigger than Games Workshop.

Especially now, it's way too late. Blizzard is arguably the most succesful videogame company ever thanks to World of Warcraft.

[Krytha]

But the (http://fr.games-workshop.com/40k/space_marines/BloodAngels/peinture/PeindreSMBA/img/1b.jpg) similarities (http://modellbau-universe.eu/original/ay_2012.jpg) are hard (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/8/84/SmallNid.JPG) to deny (http://www.starcraft-overmind.ic.cz/Download/zergling.jpg), don't you agree?

And if you reread my post above, you'll see that I merely expressed my amazement that GW has not filed any lawsuits against Blizzard, considering how quick GW is with lawyers at hand if someone even as much as looks at their IP.

In no way I stated that Blizzard should be sued or something.
You are amazed, but you shouldn't be surprised. GWs lawyers may be trigger happy, but they must know something you don't if they're not jumping in with all guns blazing when the similarities are supposedly lawsuit worthy.

[SmartAlec]

Warcraft: Orcs and Humans was originally going to be a Warhammer computer game? The end credits of Warcraft: Orcs and Humans even mention Games Workshop and Warhammer as the inspiration behind Warcraft. The major influence of Warhammer on Warcraft isn't something anyone can really deny.

Starcraft has no such message in the end credits, but hey, if you can make a successful computer game like Warcraft with 'inspiration' like that and apparently get away with it, there's no reason not to do it again.

[Netherwood]

Hell, It's About Time (http://www.wow-europe.com/en/splash_starcraft2.htm)

Did you see the cinematic trailer on the StarCraft 2 site? "Hell, it's about time" is half the dialogue. I guess they know it's overdue. :smallsmile:

Anyway. Yeah. Good stuff. I always sucked at StarCraft, but it was fun regardless. I'm looking forward to this.

[TheSilverKnight]

I really wanted to be the first to report this here this is my first time back on the forum in like a year.

It has its own official site http://starcraft2.com/ it has videos and privews of Protos, Terran and Zerg are coming soon.

[Altairius]

All I know Is that I want that Firing line of marines that was in the Announcement Cinematic as my Desktop picture.
The one on the Website is okay, but that one was really awesome.

[Dant]

So, am I the only one who has noted that on the FAQ page, under the question of how many races there will be, Blizzard is very, very careful to say absolutely nothing, while simultaneously filling an entire paragraph?


How many races are in StarCraft II?

In StarCraft II, players will see the return of the Protoss, Terran, and Zerg races. Our goal is to ensure that all the factions in the game play even more distinctly from one another than in the original StarCraft, while still maintaining the fine balance that helped make StarCraft such a classic. We're also introducing a number of new units to each race, as well as modifying some of the familiar units returning in StarCraft II. With these design refinements and the new features we have planned for the single-player and multiplayer elements of the game, StarCraft II will offer a next-generation StarCraft experience.

Note that they are very careful not to say there are three races. I smell hybrids. On the other hand, they are also careful not to say there will be four.

[Demented]

Hybrids will probably be a non-player race, a la the naga of WC3:TFT. I don't recall if it was ever answered what the fifth race for WC3 was going to be...


All I know Is that I want that Firing line of marines that was in the Announcement Cinematic as my Desktop picture.
The one on the Website is okay, but that one was really awesome.

Indeed, that one makes quite the picture. Sadly, it's too blurry in the cinematic.

[theKOT]

After watching all the footage, this game has shot right to the top of my "must buy" list, and I am refreshing Kotaku and gametrailers every thirty seconds for updates.... come on baby, daddy needs his medicine!!!

[Elidyr]

No matter how much the Warhammer fanboys whine about Starcraft ripping off the idea, the fact remains that no matter what Warhammer RTS, it will never ever ever ever and ever be as good a RTS as Starcraft (and hopefuly Starcraft 2). Just take a look at Dawn of War or Dark crusade. A big joke of a multiplayer game.

[Ra-Tiel]

So, am I the only one who has noted that on the FAQ page, under the question of how many races there will be, Blizzard is very, very careful to say absolutely nothing, while simultaneously filling an entire paragraph?

[...]

Note that they are very careful not to say there are three races. I smell hybrids. On the other hand, they are also careful not to say there will be four.
Notice this on the main site (http://sss.starcraft2.com):


Features:

Fast-paced, hard-hitting, tightly balanced competitive real-time strategy gameplay that recaptures and improves on the magic of the original game
Three completely distinct races: Protoss, Terran, and Zerg
New units and gameplay mechanics further distinguish each race
Groundbreaking single-player "story-mode" campaign
Vibrant new 3D-graphics engine with support for dazzling visual effects and massive unit and army sizes
Full multiplayer support, with new competitive features and matchmaking utilities available through Battle.net
Full map-making and scripting tools to give players incredible freedom in customizing and personalizing their gameplay experience


Emphasis mine in red.

[Cybren]

That still leaves room for one or two not-so-distinct races!

[Setra]

From what I've seen.. it looks more like an expansion pack with updated graphics, than a sequel.

Then again I suppose that's what people want, the exact same game with some updates. Of course Blizzard can charge more for a new game, than an expansion pack.

[theKOT]

From what I've seen.. it looks more like an expansion pack with updated graphics, than a sequel.

Then again I suppose that's what people want, the exact same game with some updates. Of course Blizzard can charge more for a new game, than an expansion pack.

Do you have to be so cynical about things that bring other people joy?

A lot of new units and new abilities, a new story line, vastly improved graphics....

If they did anything more, it would be a totally new game, not a sequel.

[Setra]

Do you have to be so cynical about things that bring other people joy?

A lot of new units and new abilities, a new story line, vastly improved graphics....

If they did anything more, it would be a totally new game, not a sequel.
I am cynical about everything, even things that bring sorrow, and I am also cynical about being cynical. I have no clue what cynical means and am just using it in context, I've never bothered to check the exact meaning.

Technically, a sequel is supposed to be a totally new game.

Edit: Apparently Cynical means Pessimistic, for the most part. You'd be pessimistic too if you hung around my friends. I consider myself a realist.

Unless it involves Final Fantasy

Or Diablo

Or Shadow Hearts (Though I 'wish' I'd been a bit more pessimistic about Shadow Hearts: From the New World).

Or Kittens.

[theKOT]

I am cynical about everything, even things that bring sorrow, and I am also cynical about being cynical. I have no clue what cynical means and am just using it in context, I've never bothered to check the exact meaning.

Technically, a sequel is supposed to be a totally new game.

A totally new game.....

No. A sequel is a continuation of the original. Otherwise why call it a sequel at all? Why not name it something new? I can't think of any sequels that have been entirely unbased in the original.

[Cybren]

A totally new game.....

No. A sequel is a continuation of the original. Otherwise why call it a sequel at all? Why not name it something new? I can't think of any sequels that have been entirely unbased in the original.
Generally many jRPGs only bare token resemblence to their predecessors in usually superficial ways.

Also: Silent Hill 4

[Setra]

A totally new game.....

No. A sequel is a continuation of the original. Otherwise why call it a sequel at all? Why not name it something new? I can't think of any sequels that have been entirely unbased in the original.
Let me rephrase.

A sequel isn't supposed to be the exact same game, that's an expansion of the original. A sequel usually introduces some new aspect to the gameplay, not just new units and skills.

Case in point, Guild Wars 2, a sequel to the original, however also so far the changes look pretty different. Such as the removal of the level cap of 20, and inclusion of races.

Also, Dragon Quest 2, a sequel of the original, however it was also different in many ways to the original.

Edit: I get the feeling this arguement will end on a harsh tone, so let me end it prematurely by agreeing to disagree.

[theKOT]

Let me rephrase.

A sequel isn't supposed to be the exact same game, that's an expansion of the original. A sequel usually introduces some new aspect to the gameplay, not just new units and skills.

Case in point, Guild Wars 2, a sequel to the original, however also so far the changes look pretty different. Such as the removal of the level cap of 20, and inclusion of races.

Also, Dragon Quest 2, a sequel of the original, however it was also different in many ways to the original.

Well new moves and units do introduce a new aspect. Transportation and enviroment seem to be much more central in this game as opposed to SC. Ground units with the ability to teleport or jump over changes in level...

But I see your point. Thing is, Most series I am a fan of take this route for sequels:
Halo
Zelda
Pokemon

So it doesn't bug me.

[416365416c]

I'm looking forward to it. From what I know, that's good because the actual launch could be very far forward in time. And here I thought that Supreme Commander is so good I wouldn't need any more games for a long time... guess I might be wrong. I'd almost classify Starcraft 2 as a need :smallwink:.

With regard to the level of difference it seems to make major changes, that's enough for a sequel. And you may not appreciate the scope of changes because it is trying to stay true to the starcraft look and feel, but even what little we've seen shows a lot. Possibly more new units than old ones, considering how they've replaced a lot of protoss troops, and don't forget that it looks like it has a completely different engine(not trivial), and new graphical and audio content to display the units and worlds. If you want to see what a Starcraft expansion would look like, try Starcraft Brood War. I'm not saying that contrary opinions are wrong, but my vote (should someone be counting) is that it counts as a sequel. It is too early to tell, and in favor of the opposition the difference between warcraft 2 to warcraft 3 is extraordinary.

On the topic of copying ideas...<sacarsm> I can see how the idea of humans with guns and technology would require some extraordinary inspiration </sarcasm>, wait, no ordinary inspiration is perfectly fine. As a terran myself I can see where they got the idea for the general human race from. As for the other ideas they are very common, almost all races in sci-fi are either psionic/energy, mutating swarm or humanoid. I can't think of any exceptions right now (although it's highly likely they exist). Thus either these are expression of our own nature and not externally drawn or they are inspired from previous works that have become part of our main culture, which does mean that it belongs to everyone.

And I for one do not count myself among those who can't wait to see what happens next... I've forgotten what happened in brood war:smallredface:. No need to tell me, I'm going to my Games PC now. (two of my computers are named after starcraft characters, but my games computer isn't... maybe I should change that before starcraft 2 comes out.)

[Krytha]

I've been looking through the previews on SC2 and the differences will be enormous. PHASE PRISMS? ridiculous. Mind-boggling tactical ramifications. Now a foothold in an enemy base has become a production point. You dont even need to have a building there, units just go straight to the designated prism. Reinforcements just stream in off the assembly line! One can only wonder what marvels the other races have to balance this sort of brokenness.

[Closet_Skeleton]

You may notice two things:
1. There is a vast amount of difference between the Tolkein Orc and the Warhammer Orc.
2. There is no difference between the Warhammer Orc and the Warcraft Orc.

There is a reason for this. Namely, that Warcraft was not based entirely off generic fantasy, as you claim, but off Warhammer, which is based on a unique version of generic fantasy.

DnD already took the Tolkein orc to completely different places. Warhammer is heavily based off DnD. White Dwarf used to be a primaraly DnD related magazine before Warhammer was invented.


Warhammer Goblins and Hobgoblins ride wolves, and Demons/Daemons are somewhat different in that early Warcraft essentially merged the Chaos and Orc Warhammer concepts into one. And I fail to see how Warhammer is a DnD rip off.

Orcs riding wolves is a direct reference to the Hobbit on both accounts. However Warcraft and Warhammer interpret this in differant ways. One has small goblins on wolves while the other has large orcs on huge wolves


Depsite the fact that Tyranids were first around in 1987, more than half a decade before Warcraft? :smallconfused:

Tyranid Ravener was released after Star Craft.


Blizzard quite clearly "ripped off" Games Workshop both conceptually and visually with their original games.
As time has gone on the background of the races has drifted away from their cut-and-paste roots, but not far enough that any nit who's never heard of either of the franchises before can't pick up the similarities with a quick read-through. This problem is more pronounced in Starcraft, which has had fewer games and therefore less of a chance to evolve.

However much it changes, however, both of Blizzards universes owe a vast visual debt to their Games Workshop counterparts, and always will.

I'm not denying that Blizzard games are Warhammer inspired. Its just that niether are original and Blizzard games have wider sources than just Warhammer.

[Nightmarenny]

Let me rephrase.

A sequel isn't supposed to be the exact same game, that's an expansion of the original. A sequel usually introduces some new aspect to the gameplay, not just new units and skills.

Case in point, Guild Wars 2, a sequel to the original, however also so far the changes look pretty different. Such as the removal of the level cap of 20, and inclusion of races.

Also, Dragon Quest 2, a sequel of the original, however it was also different in many ways to the original.

Edit: I get the feeling this arguement will end on a harsh tone, so let me end it prematurely by agreeing to disagree.Oh my God

I really can't believe people are talking like this. Just from what we've heard already you can tell this game will play a lot differently from the predeccessor. Protoss will telporting monster. The different kinds of attacks and shield are more pronounced than the original. To call this "just an update" is rediculous.

What did you expect? Its still an RTS. From the outside you can't notice much. But the game will play very differently. The minerals and vespene gas , base's, armies. None of those change. However their can be no building hundreds of one unit and sending them out. It will be more tactical. What more can you ask for?

[Jibar]

However their can be no building hundreds of one unit and sending them out. It will be more tactical.

Sooooo...
Anybody wanna tell him about the huge Zerg rush in one of the screenshots or should I?

[TheGrimace]

my first impression is very VERY negative...
I haven't actually seen the gameplay video yet, but I have been sitting here looking at it's loading screen for several minutes...

so far, that's my only impression.

I do remember wishing fervently that the world would suddenly give up on world of warcraft, since with that thing out Blizzard has to financial need to make any other game ever. So, the warcraft days are probably halting... sad. of course, if I get to see zeratul and some other important templar hero combing into some kind of grey archon, I'll be happy

[Indon]

Sooooo...
Anybody wanna tell him about the huge Zerg rush in one of the screenshots or should I?

With that many zerglings, I'm not sure it can be qualified as a 'rush'. It's probably pretty far into the game.

[Tengu]

It'd be really funny if Blizzard did one of those:

Rename zerglings to rushlings. Four instead of two rushlings hatch from each egg. There is a multiplayer-only upgrade for the Zerg that costs 50 crystals and gas, and shows the starting locations of other players on the minimap. It's called "rush scouting".

or

Zerglings die when they do not stand on creep, or in an area around an Overlord.

[Gorbash Kazdar]

You can count me as one of the totally, unreservedly excited StarCraft fans out there. While I think it's too early to be certain of anything, I've always been happy with Blizzard's games, and from what I've seen so far it looks like they're doing a good job of having enough the same to evoke nostalgia and maintain a connection with the original game, and enough new to make me very interested in getting this game when it does come out.

[Icewalker]

Basically....


WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OO

Least that's what my brother is doing. I'm pretty enthusiastic too. Never was great at the first one, but it was an awesome game. Can't wait to see what the zerg get.

"Hell. It's about time."
Basically my brother has watched that about 20 times on the day they made the news release.

The colossus' kinda remind me of the big units from Supreme Commander. big sweeping lasers.

I don't think it'll be tactical looking at the gameplay vids. Basically, my brother hated WCIII because it left the strategic and went into the tactical. Small groups instead of armies, and I agree, while I am worse with armies, that it is definitely a cooler and more fun style of RTS. Looks like this will be strategic, with that massive zergling rush, and the fact that it looks like you can select about 3 times as many units as before at a time.

They kept the two best in-game quotes ever:
"My life for Aiur!"
and
"Nuclear launch detected"

Can't wait. Course it'll probably take em 2 years...

[kyz]

I do remember wishing fervently that the world would suddenly give up on world of warcraft, since with that thing out Blizzard has to financial need to make any other game ever. So, the warcraft days are probably halting... sad.

Uh, whoever said a company like Blizzard can't have two successful games at once without halting either? WoW got them amazing revenue and they can affor to revive their RTS games. It doesn't mean the end to WoW ro Warcraft, just that they have the chance to make more money with two products (especially one with Starcraft in the title) than one and satisfy their rabid fanbase.

[zeratul]

woot. Protoss Rule!!!!!!!!!!!

[StickMan]

I'm so happy right now so freaking happy I mean its like a dream come true.

[Netherwood]

It'd be really funny if Blizzard did one of those:

Rename zerglings to rushlings. Four instead of two rushlings hatch from each egg. There is a multiplayer-only upgrade for the Zerg that costs 50 crystals and gas, and shows the starting locations of other players on the minimap. It's called "rush scouting".

or

Zerglings die when they do not stand on creep, or in an area around an Overlord.

Quoted For Hilarity. :smallbiggrin:

I can just imagine all the moaning and tears when the rush fans send their zerglings off and they explode as soon as they leave the creep. I didn't use the zergling rush much... I'm too cautious.

[Nightmarenny]

Sooooo...
Anybody wanna tell him about the huge Zerg rush in one of the screenshots or should I?Im well aware. I didn't say you are incapable of it. But that a more balenced army or the same cost or a much cheaper army built to combat "lings would eat those things alive. I would imagine in a real game you'd also have a ton of muti and Hydrolisk's backing up these guys. Something like the mass of lings serve to distract the ground forces and just push through and others are moving in to attack other areas.

"course this is all speculation.

[Gralamin]

Im well aware. I didn't say you are incapable of it. But that a more balenced army or the same cost or a much cheaper army built to combat "lings would eat those things alive. I would imagine in a real game you'd also have a ton of muti and Hydrolisk's backing up these guys. Something like the mass of lings serve to distract the ground forces and just push through and others are moving in to attack other areas.

"course this is all speculation.

The thing is, you can very easily get a full group of 12 lings near the beginning of the game. At that point, they can usually destroy at least one other player.

[Mr._Blinky]

HELL, IT'S ABOUT TIME!!!!


As for people saying that Terran Marines are ripped off of Space Marines, uhhhh, what? Ever heard of The Forever War, or freakin' STARSHIP TROOPERS?!?!?!?!?!? C'mon, the idea of powered armor is not a new concept by any means. And looking at the images many people have posted, saying "but looke at teh simlartieses!!!1!!", sorry but I don't see many.

Similarities:
1) It's a human guy in a high tech suit of powered armor.
2) He has a gun.
3) And, um, shoulder pads...

Differences:
1) Terran Marines are brainwashed criminals, Space Marines are religious fanatics.
2) If you want to look at it from a visual standpoint, he has A) a different gun, B) a completely different helmet, C) a no ginormous backpack thing, and D) ONLY LOOKS SIMILAR IN THAT HE'S WEARING A HIGH-TECH SUIT OF ARMOR.
3) Terran Marines are regular humans, Space Marines are centuries old super-soldiers.
4) Terran Marines, while high-tech, come nowhere near the technological marvels of the SM.

Yeeeah, I don't see many similarities compared to the differences. While I'm all for finding rip-offs in the media and exposing them, c'mon, StarCraft rips of Starship Troopers if it rips off anything, and that only on a basic level. Next you'll hear people screaming about how Shadowrun ripped off Bladerunner. Hello, Neuromancer, anyone? If you're going to accuse something of being a rip-off, at least cite the correct sources, especially when it's just two things drawing inspiration from the same media.

[FdL]

I do remember wishing fervently that the world would suddenly give up on world of warcraft, since with that thing out Blizzard has to financial need to make any other game ever. So, the warcraft days are probably halting... sad.

Well, I agree. The success of WoW basically killed the franchise. They cannot make a WC 4 if it overlaps with the content in the MMORPG. Or the next RTS would have to bring really important changes both in story and in mechanics. Well, probably not in gameplay, as it seems that Blizzard are really conservative in regards to gameplay changes. But they could still release a WC 3.5 right now that would be a great upgrade without being a revolution.

Sigh, I wish it was the announcement for WC4 instead...

Oh, well, it'll be a great game, even if I'll have to wait 5 more years for the next WC.

[SmartAlec]

As for people saying that Terran Marines are ripped off of Space Marines, uhhhh, what? Ever heard of The Forever War, or freakin' STARSHIP TROOPERS?!?!?!?!?!? C'mon, the idea of powered armor is not a new concept by any means. And looking at the images many people have posted, saying "but looke at teh simlartieses!!!1!!", sorry but I don't see many.

Similarities:
1) It's a human guy in a high tech suit of powered armor.
2) He has a gun.
3) And, um, shoulder pads...

Differences:
1) Terran Marines are brainwashed criminals, Space Marines are religious fanatics.
2) If you want to look at it from a visual standpoint, he has A) a different gun, B) a completely different helmet, C) a no ginormous backpack thing, and D) ONLY LOOKS SIMILAR IN THAT HE'S WEARING A HIGH-TECH SUIT OF ARMOR.
3) Terran Marines are regular humans, Space Marines are centuries old super-soldiers.
4) Terran Marines, while high-tech, come nowhere near the technological marvels of the SM.

Yeeeah, I don't see many similarities compared to the differences. While I'm all for finding rip-offs in the media and exposing them, c'mon, StarCraft rips of Starship Troopers if it rips off anything, and that only on a basic level. Next you'll hear people screaming about how Shadowrun ripped off Bladerunner. Hello, Neuromancer, anyone? If you're going to accuse something of being a rip-off, at least cite the correct sources, especially when it's just two things drawing inspiration from the same media.

You're missing a lot of details there. Sorry, but when you say, '1) It's a human guy in a high tech suit of powered armor.' you gloss over an awful lot. There are a series of comics, action figures and movies, both animation and live-action, that manage to have men walking around in suits of mechanical armour that manages to not look like Space Marine Power Armour. This isn't the case here.

Admittedly, this IS a question of visuals and nothing else. No-one's claiming that Starcraft's Terran Marines are a carbon-copy of Space Marines in ideology or background; if that was the case, Starcraft would simply be illegal. No, it is simply visual elements that are the issue, much as it is in Warcraft vs. Warhammer.

Although the Terran Marine suit lacks a backpack, it's clear that a lot of the elements of the Space Marine backpack are present on the Terran armour; the heat vents and the power pack have instead been moved from the backpack to an extended back (more like Terminator armour) and a projected front of the Terran armour.

As for the rest of the armour, the very shape of it mimics the Power Armour of Space Marines. Segmented, all-enclosed plates from the feet to the groin; a seeming 'weak spot' of tubes and other gizmos at the stomach; a larger, single-piece chestplate; large shoulderpads. Not even taking into account that the guy in the video wears blue armour, blue being the colour of the most common Space Marines. Even small, stylistic details, like the seams in the armour, the way the lower leg plates arch over the feet and the detailing on the inside of the armour's mechanical hand all resemble Power Armour. The Terran's gun might not resemble the Space Marine Boltgun, but it DOES look rather like the Combat Shotgun used by Space Marine scouts, among others.

And then there's the rest of the details in the video. High technology, but with a strangely low-tech twist; a security door that is locked by a 'bar', a series of mechanical arms running on a rather dodgy-looking generator; a lot of exposed wiring, moving parts and oily metal, with a lot of black-and-yellow hazard stripes. That kind of 'rough' feel to the tech is something of an Imperium hallmark, and doesn't match anything in Starship Troopers. The technology in that book is described as a little more streamlined and compact.

I must confess I never really paid much heed to the Marine/Marine similarity before, but with the release of the trailer video for Starcraft 2, I'm forced to admit I see a lot of similarities.

[Demented]

When it comes to most things with a common theme, you can usually point out dozens of similarities between them. That alone won't prove anything, because it shows so little. When you're looking to show that something was derived from something else, it's not so much the number of similarities, or the sum of them all, it's the consistency and the design concepts that they revolve around that you need to point out.

Suffice to say, you shouldn't need to bother pointing out that their pantsleeves are similar! It should be enough to point out that they're "mass-produced superhumans in heavy plated powered armor". Well, I suppose 'mass-produced' is a relative term.

It's probably more accurate to put the Starcraft space marines as a cross between Star Wars stormtroopers and Warhammer 40k space marines, along with the style of Aliens' colonial marines and a dash of roughneck for flavor.

And yet, in those terms, the Warhammer 40k space marines are an even closer cross between Star Wars stormtroopers and Dune sardaukar, with some extra buffness.

[Cyclone231]

Somebody pointed this (http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/01d55/LoLheels1.png) and this (http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/01d55/LoLheels2.png) on a thread in another forum.

For some reason Kerrigan apparently has grown high heels? That are made of bone? WTF?

[Solo]

One thing I can't figure out... what's with the jetpack thing the marines have pointed upwards?

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Ya know...I always thought that Strcraft marines reminded me more of the marines from Alien then anything else. From the cargo e-frame looking builder units to the machine gun toting marines...in the first game they looked like they were just wearing loose fatigues and kevlar platemail.

The Zerg were pretty much 'aliens' to me, though anyone could see the parallels to warhammer 40k and Starship troopers as well...especially with the variety of 'bugs'.

The protoss always reminded me of a cross between elves and the predators, especially with all their shields and cloaking and energy blades and plasma weapons....hell, their basic unit was a hand blade wielding warrior...

either way, they all deal with the same motifs...futuristic humans, vs. mindless alien menace, typically with hive mind vs. ancient technologically advanced race (usually with a warrior/poet culture and is 'enlightened').

In those terms, all of the games/movies/whatever source are the same...they all use the same general theme.

[Demented]

One thing I can't figure out... what's with the jetpack thing the marines have pointed upwards?

It's probably just a heat exhaust for the turbine engine they use. Though, exactly how a turbine engine operates in a low-grav, zero-atmosphere environment is anyone's guess.

It also helps keep them from floating away.

:smallmad: "Troops! Advance!"

:smallannoyed: "Uh, sure thing squad leader. Right after I regain some traction."

:smalltongue: "Hey look, fat man's doing the moonwalk!"

:smallannoyed: "Up yours, taffer."

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Hmm...perhaps like Armageddon the movie, they are wearing down thrusters so that they can walk around in low/zero gravity without flying away. It would make sense...

[theKOT]

It's probably just a heat exhaust for the turbine engine they use. Though, exactly how a turbine engine operates in a low-grav, zero-atmosphere environment is anyone's guess.

It also helps keep them from floating away.

:smallmad: "Troops! Advance!"

:smallannoyed: "Uh, sure thing squad leader. Right after I regain some traction."

:smalltongue: "Hey look, fat man's doing the moonwalk!"

:smallannoyed: "Up yours, taffer."

I heard the red vs blue voices when I read that.

[Dant]

To add to the debate, I'd like to mention the Tyranid/Zerg bit. You know, the mindless alien menace present in both Starship Troopers and Ender's Game. You know, books that helped define Sci-Fi. Well, Troopers at least, Ender's Game is debatable. Basically the entire Sci-Fi genre steals from itself all the time. What's the quote? Something about good writers copying, great authors stealing?

[Dr._Weird]

You can't really cite the Buggers, since they don't actually show up in Ender's Game.

[Cyr]

I've been playing starcraft since I was five newbs, how do you think I feel?

[lumberofdabeast]

Blizzard quite clearly "ripped off" Games Workshop both conceptually and visually with their original games.

Dear Kettle,

I didn't want to send this letter, but I fear that I must alert you to your bizzare tone. I tried to find a comparison, something, anything to tell me it wasn't true, but you must face the facts.

You're black.

I am sorry that I had to tell you this, but it's true. I hope you manage to find a solution with all due haste.

Sincerely, Pot

[Deepblue706]

I don't understand what's with all this talk about similarities between Warhammer 40k and Starcraft. I, for one, don't care if Blizzard ripped anything off, or "borrowed elements", or anything. SC is a game I love because it's a RTS that actually has balance, and the single-player mode has a fairly good storyline with many interesting characters. With the numerous subplots within the game, players catch a glimpse of how there's pretty much good and bad on all sides, and this, to me, gives some realism to the game. It's got depth, it's got carnage, and it also has lots of fun features. Additionally, the game isn't that expensive, and you get free online play.

That's what Blizzard gave to me.

What does GW promise? After spending $400 I'll be able to build a force of 20 miniatures and paint them myself, and then lose to the guys who spent $500, $600, or more.

Is that why nobody who likes Warhammer (and 40K) wants to go to another game? They've invested so much money, that they've gotten envious of those who play similarly themed games?

Whatever, you guys can talk about that while I drool over some SC2 art and trailers.

[Driderman]

Er... Rip-off, schmip-off, it's still a decent game so who cares?

I'm wondering though, I just read about Starship Troopers on wikipedia and unless I misunderstood something, the bugs from the books are actually intelligent aliens that use laser weapons.... aren't they?

[Indon]

Let me rephrase.

A sequel isn't supposed to be the exact same game, that's an expansion of the original. A sequel usually introduces some new aspect to the gameplay, not just new units and skills.

Case in point, Guild Wars 2, a sequel to the original, however also so far the changes look pretty different. Such as the removal of the level cap of 20, and inclusion of races.

Also, Dragon Quest 2, a sequel of the original, however it was also different in many ways to the original.

Edit: I get the feeling this arguement will end on a harsh tone, so let me end it prematurely by agreeing to disagree.

I think a sequel could be both, but that generally a more significant change can lead to a more fulfilling sequel.

Nonetheless, Mega Man comes to mind as an example of a quality series in which content would change from game to game, but there was little change in terms of gameplay elements. Of course, these games pretty much predate the concept of 'expansions'.

Edit: And Driderman, the bugs were quite different between the book and movie versions of Starship Troopers.

[Morrandir]

There's been so much innovation in the sci-fi genre that it's nearly impossible to make anything and have it not be comparable to something else.

Regardless, watching through the gameplay trailer brings up some interesting questions. With the Banelings (Banglings? Hard to make it out), are Infested Terrans removed? Are they simply a heck of a lot weaker than ITs? Do thay have a short time to live before exploding?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Regardless, watching through the gameplay trailer brings up some interesting questions. With the Banelings (Banglings? Hard to make it out), are Infested Terrans removed? Are they simply a heck of a lot weaker than ITs? Do thay have a short time to live before exploding?

I would guess that the Infested Terrans have been fully absorbed into the Swarm and their traits have been adapted to Zerglings. That would be a sensible fluff explanation.

The Infested Terrans in Star Craft are sort of a prototype form of Zerg. According to the Starcraft Manual burrowing Zerg lava infest creatures, taking them over and absorbing their DNA. Eventually the Swarm gains the ability to mutate lava into that creature. Hence every Zerg having a "core genus" identified in the manual.

[Krytha]

The version Ive seen refers to them as banelings. Yes, bane. As in... the bane of all that is good.

Goodness I'm excited about all this. They finally fixed the protoss portraits that they goofed up in Broodwar. They gave them black bead eyes? I dont know who was in charge of animation there, but it didnt mesh at all with what was given in SC. Yes, this is the level of SC nerd I am.

@Cyr - so... you were playing since you were five, newbs or is five newbs a new unit of measurement?

[SolkaTruesilver]

Is it me, or the Colossus is a LOT similar to War of Worlds's tripods??

Even the SOUND is the same... The weapons, the way of moving... the SHAPE


(oh, and I LOVE the new engines, with parts falling to the ground. The best part was when the Mothership stopped missiles, and they all fell.. AWE-SOME)

If only is was like Supreme Commander's, and falling parts actually damaging ground units...

[Lord Herman]

For those who haven't seen it yet: Blizzard has put up a 20-minute omg-res (hi-res, only bigger) gameplay video on the Starcraft 2 site. It's the same video that appeared on IGN, but it incudes commentary. It's spiffy.

[Dant]

Er... Rip-off, schmip-off, it's still a decent game so who cares?

I'm wondering though, I just read about Starship Troopers on wikipedia and unless I misunderstood something, the bugs from the books are actually intelligent aliens that use laser weapons.... aren't they?

Just, you know, keeping the debate going. Ever looked at early Tyranids? They're taken almost directly from Starship Troopers, and in this I refer to the book.

Really, there are so many giant, swarming, hive mind insectoid style races in Sci-Fi, it's hard to say who copied who.

I personally like the fact that the Terrans seem to be getting lets of infantry. That makes me happy.

[Dr._Weird]

For those who haven't seen it yet: Blizzard has put up a 20-minute omg-res (hi-res, only bigger) gameplay video on the Starcraft 2 site. It's the same video that appeared on IGN, but it incudes commentary. It's spiffy.

It's longer too. And god is it pretty. So glad to be a 'toss player right now. :smallbiggrin:

[Flying Elephant]

Is it just me, or do marines have shields? It looks like they are using their guns 1 handed, but I'm probably wrong.

[Dr._Weird]

Yeah, they look like riot shields to me. Making up for the loss of medics maybe? I'm gonna miss those.

[Lord Herman]

Those look like shields, yes. Kinda ridiculous, if you ask me.

[Krytha]

For a moment I thought you meant like... protoss energy shieldy things. But yeah, I see the shields too. RIOT POLISSSS

[elliott20]

maybe they realized that a medic's job is a little easier when they actually get to use BOTH hands.

[Penguinizer]

Actually, I see the sense with riot shields. Better to hold enemies back from melee range. Anyways, I hope it's great.

[Dr._Weird]

maybe they realized that a medic's job is a little easier when they actually get to use BOTH hands.

I'm pretty sure the medics, along with valkyries, aren't coming back.

[Flying Elephant]

I'm pretty sure the medics, along with valkyries, aren't coming back.

Dang it! I hope I can heal infantry some way! It was annoying to have "spare" marines with 10 HP.

[Morrandir]

My download of OMG-res...

it died at 99%...

only 2 megs to go...

[Bryn]

Cancel it, then go to the .avi.part (I think) file and delete the .part. You'll have most of the video, there are a few moments where there are artifacts from the missing megabytes but otherwise it should be fine.

[Dausuul]

Im well aware. I didn't say you are incapable of it. But that a more balenced army or the same cost or a much cheaper army built to combat "lings would eat those things alive. I would imagine in a real game you'd also have a ton of muti and Hydrolisk's backing up these guys. Something like the mass of lings serve to distract the ground forces and just push through and others are moving in to attack other areas.

"course this is all speculation.

So how is this different from Starcraft 1? A handful of lurkers, firebats, or archons can shred zerglings by the hundreds. Every unit has a counter-unit, that's what makes the game great.

But none of this stops you from making huge armies and sending them out. It just means that, troop strength on both sides being equal, brute force tactics lose to smart tactics, which is always true in any game ever. You do have to pay some attention to what your army is doing.

[Morrandir]

Ok, my download finished all of a sudden after beating it for a while.

I'm glad Nukes now have a real easy-to-see target now. I'm also sad that Nukes have a real easy-to-see target now.

One thing I do like is how they keep basic units viable. The power of Marines to take down Protoss Warp Rays (I'm guessing those are VERY high tier units) without too much problem gives me hope that there won't be too much imbalance at release.

[LordVader]

Yeah. Oh well. Nukes do come faster though. The new Protoss still seem extremely "leet" at breaking gunlines.:smallfrown:

[Cybren]

I'm pretty sure the medics, along with valkyries, aren't coming back.

:smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused:

[LordVader]

On the subject of "rip-offs", StarCraft isn't bad. Warcraft is horrendous though.
Medics are almost essential to Terrans now. It's like saying, "Well, I don't think the Dark Templar or Lurker will be coming back."

[elliott20]

no valkyries? Well, that I'm sort of okay with since IIRC, they weren't terribly useful unless your opponent was going air crazy and you happened to have read through that strat.

But no medics? man that's a huge hit to the Terran force.

[elliott20]

no valkyries? Well, that I'm sort of okay with since IIRC, they weren't terribly useful unless your opponent was going air crazy and you happened to have read through that strat.

But no medics? man that's a huge hit to the Terran force.

[LordVader]

Medics have neither been confirmed nor denied. Although it looks like DT might not be returning either... thank god.:smallwink:

[Cybren]

Yeah, because a random post on a message board is a very reliable source.
Also, Valks were never useful.
Never.

[Demented]

Stalkers = Dark Templar Dragoons.

Stinkin' dark templar. Why do they always have to take an already cheesily popular thing and then add "dark" to the front of it? There'd better be a dragoon unit available somewhere in the editor...

Maybe they'll bring back lurkers, as Dark Zerg. Oooo.

[TSGames]

My Christmas '08 list will have 10 items on it.

1.Top of the line grpahics card
2.Better computer
3.Starcraft II
4.Starcraft II
5.Starcraft II
6.Starcraft II
7.Starcraft II
8.Starcraft II
9.Starcraft II
10.Starcraft II

[Dausuul]

Yeah, because a random post on a message board is a very reliable source.
Also, Valks were never useful.
Never.

Tell that to all the air forces I shredded with 'em. When you're fighting mutalisks, wraiths, or corsairs, valkyries rule. Even against the heavy stuff (carriers and battlecruisers), they do tolerably well.

[Deepblue706]

I always found a well-balanced group of wraiths, marines, and goliaths to get a Valk's job done, and after the fight I'm not left with units that prove useless when targetting a building or a ground force. Valks always seemed like a waste of time. They also take up supply, whether you use them or not, just like any other unit - I'd prefer something more versatile, unless I'm playing on an island-hop map.

Corsairs are the only air-only fighters I regularly get, and that's because of their special ability.

[the_tick_rules]

valks can be deadly, they're one weakness, besides no ground attack, is heavy armor.

[theKOT]

I always found a well-balanced group of wraiths, marines, and goliaths to get a Valk's job done, and after the fight I'm not left with units that prove useless when targetting a building or a ground force. Valks always seemed like a waste of time. They also take up supply, whether you use them or not, just like any other unit - I'd prefer something more versatile, unless I'm playing on an island-hop map.

Corsairs are the only air-only fighters I regularly get, and that's because of their special ability.

Wraiths suck at air-to-ground, but they do 20 damage per attack air-to-air. Still, I'd normally rather bypass them altogether and just stick with a goliath/tank army as the gols pack quite the anti-air punch and are better against ground units. Tanks just crush static defenses.

But what would I know, zerg is the only race I can really play.

[Dr._Weird]

:smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused:

I heard something about it. I can't cite a source, but it was something story related. Maybe because the UED died?

Don't pay attention to me if you don't want to, there's a good chance I'm full of **** for this one.

[Inyssius Tor]

Blizzard has stated that Starcraft II will have the same number of units for each race as the original Starcraft had. Knowing this, I can actually do some deducing:

SCII Protoss Units
Probe
Zealot
Immortal
Stalker
Colossus
Phoenix
Phase Prism
Warp Ray
Mothership

In the original Starcraft (Brood War included), the Protoss had 14 units, which means that there are 5 units which we haven't yet seen. They could be drawn from the original units (Templar, Dark Templar, Archon, Dark Archon, Observer, Corsair, Scout, Arbiter, Reaver, Shuttle, and Carrier; Dragoons are gone. At least 6 of these won't make the cut).

SCII Terran Units
SCV
Marine
Reaper
Ghost
Siege Tank
Dropship
Battleship

In the original, there were 13 Terran units. At least one of them will not reappear.

We've only seen three Zerg units, so we can't tell anything about them yet.

[elliott20]

I always found a well-balanced group of wraiths, marines, and goliaths to get a Valk's job done, and after the fight I'm not left with units that prove useless when targetting a building or a ground force. Valks always seemed like a waste of time. They also take up supply, whether you use them or not, just like any other unit - I'd prefer something more versatile, unless I'm playing on an island-hop map.

Corsairs are the only air-only fighters I regularly get, and that's because of their special ability.
not to mention valks require that you actually have read your opponent's strategy correctly and that it is entirely contingent upon your foes using air units.

At best, a valk is only useful in a small group of maybe 3-6, which takes up 6-12 supplies. And then you have to make sure you suppliment that with Wraiths and an actual invasion force.

[Imrahil]

Blizzard has stated that Starcraft II will have the same number of units for each race as the original Starcraft had.

Actually, I believe they said that there would not be a significantly larger number of units than the factions had in Brood War, so that means they could still have more than that number.

To site my source. (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/starcraft2/news.html?sid=6171179&om_act=convert&om_clk=newlyadded&tag=newlyadded%3Btitle%3B1&page=2)

[Inyssius Tor]

My source (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/starcraft-2/790195p2.html) is sourcier!


One of the most surprising revelations in the team's presentation was that StarCraft II will have the same number of units as the original game. That means that for every new unit added to a sides' army, one had to come out. Apparently the team did this for both gameplay and design reasons. Limiting the number of units forced the team to focus on exactly what each unit was expected to do and why it should be there. There were some iconic units like the Zealots, Marines and Zerglings that no one could imagine the game without, but there were other calls that were apparently quite painful to make. Pardo seems to feel that forcing the team to make these painful choices will result in a better game by avoiding extraneous units that never get used.

[Archonic Energy]

woot. Protoss Rule!!!!!!!!!!!

yes. yes they do.


Stalkers = Dark Templar Dragoons.

Stinkin' dark templar. Why do they always have to take an already cheesily popular thing and then add "dark" to the front of it? There'd better be a dragoon unit available somewhere in the editor...
Dragoons have been replaced with Immortals because the Dragoon temple was destroyed by the Zerg.

Stalkers are completely different.

[Talya]

My source (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/starcraft-2/790195p2.html) is sourcier!

Taking out dragoons was certainly not removing a unit that nobody ever used, however, so this isn't entirely accurate.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Dragoons have been replaced with Immortals because the Dragoon temple was destroyed by the Zerg.

Stalkers are completely different.

Stalkers are differant but they're still Dark Templar Dragoons even though there are no Dragoons anymore.

I consider the Immortals to be like a new model of Tank. The old model became useless because its armour was too thin so they stopped making it and eventually they got phased out of the army. They're still a tank however and will perform a similar role.

It would be interesting to have all Battle Cruisers have Yamato cannons now since the fluff said they were a new technology and not all ships had been refitted with them.

I think those Jump troops are replacing Vultures.

I would be nice if there were Dragoons in the editor that appeared as special units on certain levels though. Like how Warcraft III had Warlocks, Troll axe throwers and Ogres despite the Hoard not using them.

[elliott20]

And if they're going to create an editor engine as powerful as the WC3 engine, you can bet that you'll be seeing a bunch of people creating their own custom units.

I can't wait to create my own version of battle angel Alita for this game.

[Morrandir]

Stalkers are differant but they're still Dark Templar Dragoons even though there are no Dragoons anymore.


There are no Khalai Dragoons anymore. Guess the DT picked up on the tech after the Khalai survivors joined them after the Zerg invasion.

Anyway, if they do replace units on a one-to-one basis, it's most likely that the new unit's strength was the same thing the old unit was good for. Example: Phoenix replaces Corsair.

[gooddragon1]

Its good that the protoss lost the corsair because just being able to take out bunkers with energy is wrong. However the mothership worries me (well mebbe not with some scourge...) I think a terran science vessel with appropriate usage of the missile's aoe to avoid the field might do well also. I really hope they don't have dark archons. Other than that it looks good with lasers and such.

[Krytha]

I guess at this point all I care about are Carriers, scouts, arbiters, archons and dark archons (which sneakily includes templar and dark templar so it makes the list look less demanding). COME ON! Protoss without these guys?

[Dr._Weird]

Dark Archons... meh. My wishlist is currently:

Zealots
Archons
Carriers
Dark Templar
Bunkers
Marines
Zerglings
Hydralisks
Goliaths
Firebats

Woo! 4 out of 10 already!

[RusVal]

Dark Archons... meh. My wishlist is currently:

Zealots
Archons
Carriers
Dark Templar
Bunkers
Marines
Zerglings
Hydralisks
Goliaths
Firebats

Woo! 4 out of 10 already!

Actually 5 out of 10. There are some screenshots of Bunkers in the game.

[Inyssius Tor]

Its good that the protoss lost the corsair because just being able to take out bunkers with energy is wrong. However the mothership worries me (well mebbe not with some scourge...) I think a terran science vessel with appropriate usage of the missile's aoe to avoid the field might do well also. I really hope they don't have dark archons. Other than that it looks good with lasers and such.

Again it must be said: the demo cheated! Each of the abilities lasts about five seconds, and the Mothership only has energy enough to use two at a time (less, if the Black Hole costs more than the others); furthermore, one of the abilities can easily be circumvented (by having your ships surround the Mothership), and another ability nerfs her shields (look closely at the Planet Cracker).

Also, the official Battle.Net forum threads about SCII are kind of amusing, in their depressing, moron-infested way. The original poster is all, *long well-thought-out essay on one or another aspect of SCII*, and the next three posts go like this: "stfu b****", "Wow, what an incredible dolt the OP is.", and "no. go **** yourself".

[1dominator]

I have one thing to say:
OMG 3D ZERGLINGS!!!!!!!!!
-Dom

[Tor the Fallen]

I don't think high templars, fire bats, or vultures will make the cut. Vultures were great if you could get them before your opponent moved past the 25/50/100 min units to the vespene gas ones, and you could hit and run with them. Especially good vs. lings or taking down enemy workers. But past that, they were way to fragile with a far to short of a range to be dangerous. A mass of hydras would disentegrate them, and they'd never make it through a wall of siege tanks.


I always found a well-balanced group of wraiths, marines, and goliaths to get a Valk's job done, and after the fight I'm not left with units that prove useless when targetting a building or a ground force. Valks always seemed like a waste of time. They also take up supply, whether you use them or not, just like any other unit - I'd prefer something more versatile, unless I'm playing on an island-hop map.

Corsairs are the only air-only fighters I regularly get, and that's because of their special ability.

Goliaths are great, but their pathing as medium units leads to unnecessary micro. Their also limited in where they could go.

A valk's real strength was in overlord hunting. A handful of those, and you could do serious damage to a zerg player that wasn't paying attention. Also extremely good for cleaning house on guardians, what with that splash damage. No micro required.

Not so great at taking down capital ships. Maybe weakening a mass of carriers' shields, but a science vessel's EMP is far more effective.

As long as there wasn't too many units on the map, that is. If there was too much going on on the map, valks would be unable to fire, as their volleys counted as units.

[Demented]

High templar made the cut.
So far, anyway. (After all, nothing is final at this stage.)

A short clip in the official artwork trailer has a couple of them... not that they do anything but make a protoss base look less empty.

[Tor the Fallen]

High templar made the cut.
So far, anyway. (After all, nothing is final at this stage.)

A short clip in the official artwork trailer has a couple of them... not that they do anything but make a protoss base look less empty.

I think, storywise, they'll get replaced. But who knows.


RE rip-offs
I always thought the space marines/xenomorphs was "ripping-off" and by "ripping-off" I mean "paying homage" to the greatest space marine movie in the history of man, Aliens.

Let's look at the similarities:
The marines are crass, foul-mouthed, and definitely 'human'. They lack the fervor of the 40k marines (and extra organs), and the, eh, refinement of the Light Drop Infantry.

The terran units draw more from the "we built this out of a post-apocolyptic crpa-heap" look than sleek 50s space opera.

The zerg are called xenomorphs.

The zerg structures and briefing screens look like the infested powerplant in Aliens.

The terran dropships have the exact same voice, and even say the same things, as the dropship in Aliens. They are also both called dropships, and look extremely similar.

Ripley fights the queen xenomorph in an SCV.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I think, storywise, they'll get replaced. But who knows.

You can't replace the psyker of the psychic race. They'll definately be there in some form.


The terran units draw more from the "we built this out of a post-apocolyptic crpa-heap" look than sleek 50s space opera.

Warhammer 40k has a little of that. The Space Marines and Imperial Guard are cleaner and more mass produced but Necromunda gangers and Space Orcs are definately in that vein. But Space Orcs also have a strong Mad Max influence.

It's too narrow minded to say either are a complete rip off of a single thing.


The zerg are called xenomorphs.

The zerg structures and briefing screens look like the infested powerplant in Aliens.

The terran dropships have the exact same voice, and even say the same things, as the dropship in Aliens. They are also both called dropships, and look extremely similar.

Ripley fights the queen xenomorph in an SCV.

True, true, true.

[Jibar]

Something I noticed the other day.
You look at the Space Marine armour, it's Stormtrooper stuff. It's there to make them look good and cover up vital areas, yet won't really provide any protection. Terran marines armour looks like it's actually meant to stop bullets and worse.
Plus, Space Marines have all their life support systems jammed into that backpack of theirs. Terran marines have it integrated right into the suit.
Just some design differences really, nothing major, but I felt like pointing it out.

[Destro_Yersul]

Something I noticed the other day.
You look at the Space Marine armour, it's Stormtrooper stuff. It's there to make them look good and cover up vital areas, yet won't really provide any protection. Terran marines armour looks like it's actually meant to stop bullets and worse.
Plus, Space Marines have all their life support systems jammed into that backpack of theirs. Terran marines have it integrated right into the suit.
Just some design differences really, nothing major, but I felt like pointing it out.

Are those starship trooper marines, or 40k marines? Because if they are the latter then I beg to differ.

[Ronsian]

Anyway, who here is gonna get the game the first day it comes out? I'll hope to get it in the first MONTH. That's how bad it's gonna be. Could be some nerd fights breaking out. I'm willing to bet some people will camp out a week before.:smalleek:

[Demented]

Hey, don't forget preorder!

[Jacob_Gallagher]

I love the new fly/hop animation of the Zerglings.

[Morrandir]

I have it preordered at my local EB Games.

First in line, actually :smallbiggrin:

[Lord Herman]

I'm certainly going to preorder it. But I think I'll wait a bit, to see if there's going to be a collector's edition or something.

[Closet_Skeleton]

We have to be given 4 release dates before we can pre-order. This game is still a year away at least.

[Valdren]

I preordered it at EB when I went out to purchase the first SC and expansion again (my cousin lost my copies when I lent it to him). So now I'm going through the whole game again to get the feel fresh in my head and prep me for the release

[Gnome King]

So...

one question only. Just one.

Where are the goliaths?

[ImperiousLeader]

That gameplay video made me salivate. So, there are two major points of consideration. First, what will the new Protoss, Terran and Zerg forces look like, what are their units, and secondly, how will the storyline evolve from the original Starcraft. Because I'm not a great RTSer, I have trouble completing the single-player missions, but I loved the plot of Starcraft. I'm almost more interested in seeing what will happen to Raynor, Zeratul and Kerrigan than actually playing the game.

So, first, Gameplay.

Looking at the video, I'm willing to bet we won't be seeing a return of the Arbiter or the Reaver. The Shuttle has become the superior Phase Prism, and the Scout has now become the Phoenix (good thing they killed off poor Fenix then, eh?), Immortals are upgraded Dragoons. I'm wondering about Carriers. The Mothership is powerful, and with Warp Rays and Phoenixes, there's not a lot of room for Carriers. Also, I've noticed no cloaked units as of yet for the Protoss.

I haven't seen enough of the Zerg and Terrans to guess on their forces. Though I must say the Reapers are pretty damn cool.

[Gnome King]

That gameplay video made me salivate. Also, I've noticed no cloaked units as of yet for the Protoss.

Actually, the dark templar dragoon things are cloaked.

My question still stands. WHERE ARE THE GOLIATHS?

[The Orange Zergling]

My wishlist:

Zerglings
Hydralisks
Infested Terrans
Carriers
Dark Templar
Archons
Medics
Ghosts
Siege Tanks

I hope the Banelings dont replace ITs, ITs were cooler =(. Also, Stalkers dont count as Dark Templar. They just dont.

[Demented]

Well, I thought I'd make the lineup so far, as best as I can remember it all, assuming it's true that units are being replaced/added on a 1-to-1 basis


Terran
{table=head]Unit|Replacement
SCV|---
Marine|---
Firebat|Reaper?
Ghost|---
Vulture|?
Goliath|?
Siege Tank|---
Wraith|?
Dropship|---
Science Vessel|?
Battlecruiser|---[/table]

Protoss
{table=head]Unit|Replacement
Probe|---
Zealot|---
Dragoon|Stalker
High Templar|?
Archon|?
Reaver|Colossus
Scout|Phoenix
Shuttle|Phase Prism
Observer|?
Carrier|Warprey?
Interceptor|?
Arbiter|Mothership

Zerg
{table=head]Unit|Replacement
Drone|?
Zergling|---
Hydralisk|?
Ultralisk|?
Defiler|?
Overlord|?
Mutalisk|---
Guardian|?
Queen|?
Scourge|?
Infested Terran|Baneling?
Broodling|?[/table]


Apparently, there's quite a revamp going on. Almost half of the terran are still up for grabs. More than half of the protoss have been revamped, and still more are still in the air, so to speak. As for the zerg, we really don't know anything.

More interesting note about gameplay specifically:
The scout had a heavy anti-air attack. The phoenix does not, instead having an anti-air special ability. If the wraith also loses its anti-air missile attack, what does that mean for air combat in Starcraft II? At least for the Protoss and Terrans, their light air units were significant anti-air weapons.

[The Orange Zergling]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Immortals = Dragoons, and (sadly) Stalkers = Dark Templar...

And I really am excited about this nontheless. I pretty much learned to read by playing StarCraft (mission briefings, voices + scrolling text), so yeah.

[theKOT]

Apparently, there's quite a revamp going on. Almost half of the terran are still up for grabs. More than half of the protoss have been revamped, and still more are still in the air, so to speak. As for the zerg, we really don't know anything.

More interesting note about gameplay specifically:
The scout had a heavy anti-air attack. The phoenix does not, instead having an anti-air special ability. If the wraith also loses its anti-air missile attack, what does that mean for air combat in Starcraft II? At least for the Protoss and Terrans, their light air units were significant anti-air weapons.

Maybe the game creators wanted to shift the balance of power away from the air, what with the terrain & overcoming it apparantly being such a factor. I know I'd welcome it. In starcraft an air army was an eventuality and the only strategy for no rush games. After seeing the reaper and
collosus's methods of overcoming obstacles, and the warping abilities of the stalkers and phase prism I think transportation will be given greater emphasis in this title.

What I hope they really get rid of is vultures. Nobody ever used them for anything. Defilers could be done away with too. Queens as well.

[RusVal]

Despite my rather short post earlier, I, too, am totaly pumped for this game. Heck, my screen name is based off a Starcraft fanfic character I came up with (Russ Valiant).

As for units, I find the approach Blizzard is taking to be interesting, yet strangly logical. While I have no clue about what direction they will take the Zerg, I do have some ideas about the Terrans:

SCVs: Cooler looking lasers when mining minerals, otherwise not to much change.
Marines: Wish they would get rid of the bayonet and riot shield, unless they will actually use them. Otherwise, it seems they will be the same as before.
Firebats: Most likely replaced by the Reaper.
Ghost: Yep, no way blizzard will get rid of these guys (though we might see a general gender change). Sneaky new ways to use Lockdown most likely possible.
Vulture: While I don't see Vultures returning as a produced unit, Jim Raynor's got to ride around in something! Most likely will just be a campaign unit.
Goliath: Maybe an upgraded walker of some sort...
Siege Tank: I'll admit they look a little cartoony. The big boom they make is enough to make me ignore it.
Wraiths: Considering that Wraiths appear on one of the Wallpapers on the official website, I get the feeling one of my favorite units will return, cloaking field intact. There is a possibility that Wraiths might get an upgraded Anti-Air capability, possibly a missle barrage similar to the Valkyrie?
Battleships: Yamato cannon, yo.
Dropships: The airline food will still stink.
Science Vessel: EMP abilities have been mentioned, so either SVs are returning, or another unit is getting this ability.
Valkyries: On on of the Trailers, a new type of aircraft has been spotted flying around. It is possible that this could be a bomber of some sort.
Medics: Unless Terran infantry can heal themselves now, I don't think Medics are going anywhere.

Ah well, I'll play as Terrans anyways.:smallamused:

[Gnome King]

Ah well, I'll play as Terrans anyways.:smallamused:

Me too. But only if they still have goliaths...or some upgraded form of them...

[The Orange Zergling]

I shall most likely remain Zerg. Think about it...

Zergling rush in 3D.

[Gnome King]

I shall most likely remain Zerg. Think about it...

Zergling rush in 3D.

I never liked zerg rushing...it never seemed very fun to me.

[The Orange Zergling]

Only if you're the other player.

vVvvVv
^^^^^^

[Gnome King]

Not really. I never really got it. I get RTS games for the long battles and the huge armys. Killing someone early on, before they get any units at all...well it just doesent seem fun.

[13_CBS]

Hmm...Blizzard will have their work cut out for them.

1) If they don't get the feel of the original quite right (say, it ends up being more tactical and Warcraft III esque), the original fans will be unhappy.

2) If they get too much of the old feeling right, then Blizzard will be accused of not being innovated enough.

Hmm...

On another note, I wonder if they'll finally make the Battlecruiser normal attack better? It used to suck so much that 3 scouts could easily kill 2 Battlecruisers.

[The Orange Zergling]

Not really. I never really got it. I get RTS games for the long battles and the huge armys. Killing someone early on, before they get any units at all...well it just doesent seem fun.

While I understand your point (I want my fair share of epic sieges, too), sometimes I just feel like speedkilling. A lot of the time the rush fails and we end up duking it out anyway, though. 1 marine + 1 bunker (or 2-3 zealots) > 6 zerglings usually.

[Morrandir]

Heck, the 6 'ling rush is easily countered by having your workers beat the crap out of them.

And, I know this is a CRAZY idea, but maybe... just maybe... they're only adding units and replacing the outdated (Prism obviously is new Shuttle). Take a look at the Warcraft II to Warcraft III movement. From the Humans and Orcs, quite a few units were added, and a few were replaced.

Just saying, they may not be redoing it on a one-to-one basis...

[The Orange Zergling]

I at least hope that's what they'll be doing, although I could live with just replacing.

Of course, my prayers of getting rid of the Scout will not be answered.

[Destro_Yersul]

Scouts? I never used scouts. Carriers + Arbiters all the way. :smallbiggrin:

[The Orange Zergling]

<3 Carriers and Dark Templar. Scouts are crazy overpriced.

[Morrandir]

Scouts are good for taking down other air units, and for, well, scouting.

I use Corsairs more often though, as Scouts are best in 1on1 air combat, and we all know how often THAT happens.

Though is is highly entertaining using Valks against Carriers, though. Take down half their interceptors in the first volley.

[The Orange Zergling]

For scouting, I just use an Observer. Maybe I'm just stupid, but the Scout's damage always seemed relatively low to me, even the air-to-air attack.

[Destro_Yersul]

Scouts are good for taking down other air units, and for, well, scouting.

I use Corsairs more often though, as Scouts are best in 1on1 air combat, and we all know how often THAT happens.

Though is is highly entertaining using Valks against Carriers, though. Take down half their interceptors in the first volley.

Course then the other half of 'em pwns you. :smallbiggrin:

There are a few units I never use. Scouts, Valks, High Templar, Devourers'... I just never found them useful.

[Morrandir]

The only problem with observers is that if the enemy spots them, they're gone. 20 shields and 40 hp don't offer too much protection. Just pop a scout, use Hallucination (Look! A High Templar use!), and go explore. Completely free, and the enemy thinks you're an idiot because you don't have Observers.

Scouts are excellent anti-air micromanagement, since a full squad can down most anything in just a couple seconds. Valks = counter to the almighty Muta rush. High Templar are only useful if you find uses for them, most notably Psionic Storming Zerg. Great fun if you manage to get one into their base and keep killing off their larva :smallbiggrin:

Devourers I also thought were useless, since Scourge were cheaper and more effective anti-air, but I found this out recently: In addition to the acid spores effect slowing down enemy attacks, it also increases the damage they take on a one-to-one basis. So, you dose up the enemy fleet with the spores, then send in some Mutas and deal at least 18-15-12, per Muta via bounce effect. More, if the air attack has been upgraded.

[The Orange Zergling]

I only use High Templar for Archons. Although Psionic Storm has proved to be handy many times over.

I also still stand by my claim that Scouts simply cost too much to be effective. It's, what, 275 minerals and 150 gas for a single one? Somewhere around there? Thousands more for upgrades, too.

[Lord Herman]

High Templar are only useful if you find uses for them

This is true.

[Morrandir]

Considering you can get 2 Scouts for 1 fully loaded Carrier, it's not TOO bad, but only really worth it if your enemy is getting heavy air units.

Otherwise, I get one and play with Hallucination. Great fun sending in 4 groups of fake Scouts to make your enemy panic :smallwink:

[Gralamin]

High Templars are amazing, if used Correctly.

Some of my favorite uses:
"Arbiter Rush" - Sending in a "huge amount" of Arbirters scares the enemy. They generally figure out most of them are fakes, but you've got carriers in their base then.
Nuke Combo - This one is very difficult to use, and isn't likely to ever be needed. However, Sending a ghost to nuke something, with an arbiter to keep it cloaked (leave it cloaked under the arbiter). And followed by many ghosts, causes enemies to panic.

[13_CBS]

Wait, wouldn't the enemy just blow up the arbiter and then bring in a detector to kill the ghost? O_o It surprises me that people don't put many static defenses in their bases.

[Demented]

Perhaps they should be more concerned at how you happen to have both nukes and arbiters. :p

But, if you can accomplish a horde of ghosts and one is aiming a nuke, what's the guy supposed to do? Unless he also has high templar, and psi-storms the lot of them...

[Destro_Yersul]

Perhaps they should be more concerned at how you happen to have both nukes and arbiters. :p

But, if you can accomplish a horde of ghosts and one is aiming a nuke, what's the guy supposed to do? Unless he also has high templar, and psi-storms the lot of them...

Dark Archons. And recall.

Kill the kneeling one? The best way is to have multiple nukes, and there are, like, five seperate ghosts all firing them at the same time from different directions.

[Maldraugedhen]

Psionic Storm is great for people who aren't paying attention to their hordes of highly squishy zerglings and hydras. I've popped several waves of the guys with that spell. Normally, I just go Archon, though.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Archons are a big of a waste of resources. Especially when Science Vessels can nuke them so.

[The Orange Zergling]

Really? I always thought they were a good use of resources, even moreso because I usually end up with more Vespene Gas than Minerals. Although the EMP-Shockwave really does finish them off in the blink of an eye.

[Ronsian]

So what's the first thing you're gonna do when you pop in the CD and install SC2 when ya get it? I'm gonna look at the first campaign, then play a 5-minute skirmish of them, then go beat the camp. Any ideas on when it's coming out? My guess is before September (unless it's reaaaaaaaaaallllly long time). I think we should be having the beta soon, unless something major goes wrong.

[The Orange Zergling]

Tutorial, as always, in case there's something different about the controls. Then I'm gonna do the first 2-3 missions of the first Campaign, then play skirmishes with the other two races.

[Morrandir]

Play through the story fully. I gotta know what's next between Raynor and Kerrigan!

[The Orange Zergling]

I'm kind of interested in that too, I had a plot for a custom campaign thought out that basically made Raynor utterly obsessed with hunting down and killing Kerrigan as payment for Fenix's death. He'd also have gone insane and possibly infested if I'd made the thing.

Although the script I'd thought of made him a little too emo.

EDIT: I has the good grammers.

[Morrandir]

I'm also interested in what comes of Duran's "project."

I'll only be angry if it's Zerg with shields...

[Closet_Skeleton]

I'm kind of interested in that too, I had a plot for a custom campaign thought out that basically made Raynor utterly obsessed with hunting down and killing Kerrigan as payment for Fenix's death. He'd also have gone insane and possibly infested if I'd made the thing.

Although the script I'd thought of made him a little too emo.

EDIT: I has the good grammers.

Hey, you could have given him Psychic powers.

The whole point of Raynor being that he's normal.

You may have made emo-Raynor but fear not for it seems we're more likely to get Pirate-Raynor, especially judging from his 'Raynor's Raiders' in Brood War and his groovy stubble (assuming that is Raynor in the art trailer).

[Icewalker]

So.

Who's willing to bet there will be an immortal hero. Immortal as in the unit. It would be totally awesome, and make sense with the whole 'few of them left' part.

[The Orange Zergling]

I'm betting on at least one, possibly two or even three story-important ones.

[Dausuul]

Archons are a big of a waste of resources. Especially when Science Vessels can nuke them so.

IMO, the point of archons is if you're in the middle of a big attack, your high templar are out of juice, and you need that little extra oomph to put you over the top.

They're also tolerably good against a Zerg opponent who's going mutas and zerglings... though you can't count on them for too long, since any halfway competent Zerg who sees you with a lot of archons will switch to cranking out hydras posthaste. (Of course, a halfway competent Zerg facing a Protoss opponent would have been massing hydras since the start anyway.)

[Gnome King]

GAH! how much longer till the terran part is up?

[Morrandir]

To heck with the Terrans!

Live for the Swarm!

[The Orange Zergling]

To heck with the Terrans!

Live for the Swarm!

Oh hellz yeah. Ready to serve. Ready to kill.

Only problem is I dont think they'll be posting the Zerg stuff for a while, on the main page you can see [Protoss] [Terran] [Zerg], which implies to me that they will post their stuff in that order.

Just my opinion, though.

[Gnome King]

Goliath online.

*Sounds of gruesome zergling and muta death*

[Gralamin]

Goliath online.

*Sounds of gruesome zergling and muta death*

No no no. Goliaths are annihilated by Zerglings.

[exodus_dragon]

Alright i thought it was a myth that there was an SC2 but i checked it out and it looks pretty sweet. my complaint though after watching the trailors (yes i understand that its still in the works) but PROTOSS are so over powerd and to me always have been. i mean if you looked at the mother ship HOLY CRAP it can own an entire fleet by itself. not only that it can enihilate the ground units pretty easy.

as far as the whole ripoff ordeal check this out. the protoss have new units that highly resemble units off of War of The Worlds, and Indipendince day. The protoss have a stalker kind of robot that is a tripod that has a heat beam that disintigrates small units like lings and marines (war of the worlds), as for the mother ship has abilities like the indipendance day ships with that blast the white house and other buildings. also one of the new fighter ships for protoss resembles the small ships on independance day. the drop ships for the terren look like Halo dropships. now come on who gives a rats *** where they borrowed an idea from. there isnt much to come up with when you use futuristic ideas. most ideas span off the fact that we will have high tech suits of armor and ships. fighting aliens in space come on how many ideas are out there with that same concept. most of our future stuff involve things with space and aliens. this game puts things into a war type aspect of it. and its totally awesome. still my pet pieve is that the game has so overpowered the protoss again. i havent seen many of the new terrain units but still from what i saw, terrain and zerg units better have something impressive to counteract the protoss otherwise its just ownage. and people need to quit complaining aobout ripoff of other ideas. GET OVER IT!!!

[Elidyr]

Alright i thought it was a myth that there was an SC2 but i checked it out and it looks pretty sweet. my complaint though after watching the trailors (yes i understand that its still in the works) but PROTOSS are so over powerd and to me always have been. i mean if you looked at the mother ship HOLY CRAP it can own an entire fleet by itself. not only that it can enihilate the ground units pretty easy.


They cheated in the gameplay demonstration, which is why the mothership could do all its abilities in a short succession.

[The Orange Zergling]

You forget we have seen more Protoss units than other races, so there may be an uber unit for all races... if that's true, I cant wait to see what the Zerg one is...

And the way I see it, the Protoss splurge on powerful units that are more expensive and they can fewer of them. The Zerg are the polar opposite, and the Terrans are in the middle.

[Destro_Yersul]

You forget we have seen more Protoss units than other races, so there may be an uber unit for all races... if that's true, I cant wait to see what the Zerg one is...

And the way I see it, the Protoss splurge on powerful units that are more expensive and they can fewer of them. The Zerg are the polar opposite, and the Terrans are in the middle.

Yeah, that sounds about right. As for the Terran uberthing: I want to see an orbital death ray :D

[The Orange Zergling]

IMA CHARGIN' MAH FIREBALL
And I was like DONT DO IT JIMMY!
IMA FIRIN' MAH FIREBALL

:smalltongue:

[exodus_dragon]

I agree with you. I havent seen the other units yet. but in retro spect the original starcraft game protoss were still well over powered. 3 zealots can killa squad of marines or lings easily with minor casualties. as a base unit goes protoss really owned with zealots. yes they cost a little more than a rine or ling but still 16 dmg per hit come on a ling does 5 and rine does like 6 plus a zealot hasa shield and life that equal doble that of a rine or lings. and it goes up from there protoss have alwaya been overpowered. the balance needs to come down. especially now with the zealots new rush ability. that just makes it that much better. what can marines do now or lings. absolutely nothing.

[The Orange Zergling]

Zealots cost twice as much as a marine, and four times as much as a zergling (two 'lings from one egg, one egg costs 50 minerals). I thought it was pretty balanced, actually... not sure, but didnt Zealots also cost 2 Psi?

[Destro_Yersul]

Zealots cost twice as much as a marine, and four times as much as a zergling (two 'lings from one egg, one egg costs 50 minerals). I thought it was pretty balanced, actually... not sure, but didnt Zealots also cost 2 Psi?

Yes, they did. They took the most unit cap of any basic unit. Still, a couple of zealots with a shield battery could hold off a small horde of 'lings. I'm really liking the new zealot charge thing. maybe now they won't get so pwned by hydras.

Orbital Death Ray: Maybe make it accessible with a building, kind of like nukes. Except it wouldn't need a ghost to aim and would take astronomical amounts of energy. Be kind of broken, though I expect most people would keep it back for point defense.

[exodus_dragon]

Srry i cant spell :smallsmile: :smallsmile:

Ok lets play this out on a cost = basis:


1 Zealot cost 100 minersl/ no gas/ does 16 dmg/ has 40 shield and 40 life/and takes up 2 unit slot/ meelee

1 marine cost 50 mineral/ no gas/does 6 dmg/ has 40 life no shield/ takes up 1 unit slot/ranged

1 ( set of 2 )ling costs 50 mineral/ no gas/ does 10 (counting both) dmg/ has 60 life (counting both) no shield/ takes up 1 unit slot. meelee


If you went oneV.one zealot owns hands down. explain to me then how that is balanced even if a rine and a set of lings attacked a zealot the zealot will mostlikely come out alive with near death life points. BUT STILL ALIVE!!! even thouggh rine has ranged it stands no chance

[Lord Herman]

there may be an uber unit for all races

Blizzard has already confirmed every race will have an uber unit.

[The Orange Zergling]

Yeah, 1v1(2 lings) Zealots pwn, but I think it's 2-3 marines/sets of zerglings packed into a single unit, thus the doubled cost. I could be wrong, but I *think* two Marines can kill a zealot, but one dies and the other is in single digit health.

[exodus_dragon]

Exactly that is my point. that is how overpowered protoss are. as a base unit there should be more eqaulity. ok a rine costs a little less so you can make more say each person is given 500 minerals one to each race. and you make a squad for each (ffa basis) the zealot will own. the computer AI will even have the ling attack the zealot instead of the marine. and the marine attack the zealot instead of the ling because the zealot is so overpowered power. you spent 500 minerals in building you get 5 zealots. 10 marines and 20 lings zealots would still own both pretty good granted they may not win but would definitely put a damper on the marine or ling forces. if it were balanced then if they attacked at the same time they should both die at the same time

[exodus_dragon]

Exactly that is my point. that is how overpowered protoss are. as a base unit there should be more eqaulity. ok a rine costs a little less so you can make more say each person is given 500 minerals one to each race. and you make a squad for each (ffa basis) the zealot will own. the computer AI will even have the ling attack the zealot instead of the marine. and the marine attack the zealot instead of the ling because the zealot is so overpowered power. you spent 500 minerals in building you get 5 zealots. 10 marines and 20 lings zealots would still own both pretty good granted they may not win but would definitely put a damper on the marine or ling forces. if it were balanced then if they attacked at the same time they should both die at the same time. i mean i dont get me wrong i love playing with protoss but i like playing with them for there power. i dont know it could be totally me but i really feel that they are overpowered

[The Orange Zergling]

So, what you're saying is that the Zealot should be the same as it's racial counterparts? That takes some of the individuality out of the races.

Also, priority for the attack-order thing. More powerful units have higher priority, therefor the AI targets them first.

And right now I'm just about fall-over tired, so I'll continue this conversation tomarrow.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Yeah, that sounds about right. As for the Terran uberthing: I want to see an orbital death ray :D

No Ion cannon, they aren't GDI.

[exodus_dragon]

Good night thanks for the civilized dibate on protoss power. i would love to continue this discusion later. as for what yo usay about individualization no i dont want to lose the individualization i love protoss they are sweet. but i dotn know they could do something to even it out a little bit. i could be missing some element if so pls enlightten me on it. peace orange zerg

[Forevergrey]

If it really captures the starcraft spirt, the sequel will, despite all the debate allow me to win as usual in almost all battlenet battles by broodling spawing the heavies or tanks, sending in a suicide zergling squad then sending in wave after wave of hydrolisks.

In the end, nothing stops hydrolisks.

Edit: Spellingz

[exodus_dragon]

as far as the oober bad *** for the terrain i think it should be some kind of satalite thing that calls down from an orbating satelite a rain shower of missiles on an area. like little nukes that would be sweet. and the zerg should have some big *** beast thing like the Ultralisk but bigger and nastier that can burrow and attack like a lurker but also attack above ground and air units. i dont know my imagination is running rampant today:smallbiggrin:

[Indon]

Yeah, 1v1(2 lings) Zealots pwn, but I think it's 2-3 marines/sets of zerglings packed into a single unit, thus the doubled cost. I could be wrong, but I *think* two Marines can kill a zealot, but one dies and the other is in single digit health.

Well, the downside to Zealots is that they aren't ranged, so marines get free shots on zealots and more of them can focus fire.

So while 2 marines might barely beat 1 zealot, 20 marines will slaughter 10 zealots, because all 20 can start firing right from the start, while the zealots must each move from target to target.

[hanzo66]

as far as the oober bad *** for the terrain i think it should be some kind of satalite thing that calls down from an orbating satelite a rain shower of missiles on an area. like little nukes that would be sweet. and the zerg should have some big *** beast thing like the Ultralisk but bigger and nastier that can burrow and attack like a lurker but also attack above ground and air units. i dont know my imagination is running rampant today:smallbiggrin:

Just thinking of the Zerg Megaunit has got me freaked...

Something tells me it's some floating monstrosity and another tells me it's a sort of highly evolved mobile Cerebrate with massive psi capabilities.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Just thinking of the Zerg Megaunit has got me freaked...

Something tells me it's some floating monstrosity and another tells me it's a sort of highly evolved mobile Cerebrate with massive psi capabilities.

Unless they get a super building instead.

[exodus_dragon]

Well, the downside to Zealots is that they aren't ranged, so marines get free shots on zealots and more of them can focus fire.

So while 2 marines might barely beat 1 zealot, 20 marines will slaughter 10 zealots, because all 20 can start firing right from the start, while the zealots must each move from target to target.

yes but look at SC2 with the new zealot ability to rush. is that not overpowered. i watched the demo and i htink it was like 6 zealots killed 20 rines with that rush ability

[exodus_dragon]

LOL yeah i cant wait to see the oooober power unit for zerg i have a feeling its going to be sweet. like some kind of Godzilla thing or something lol:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[Indon]

yes but look at SC2 with the new zealot ability to rush. is that not overpowered. i watched the demo and i htink it was like 6 zealots killed 20 rines with that rush ability

It'd make sense if that were an upgrade, to keep zealots relevant in the late game (kinda like stim packs). Seriously, after you have access to carriers, arbiters, and dark templar, who uses zealots?

[ufo]

yes but look at SC2 with the new zealot ability to rush. is that not overpowered. i watched the demo and i htink it was like 6 zealots killed 20 rines with that rush ability

I believe there's a fair chance they changed the cost and damage between games, just a bit <.<.

[Ethdred]

Well, the downside to Zealots is that they aren't ranged, so marines get free shots on zealots and more of them can focus fire.

So while 2 marines might barely beat 1 zealot, 20 marines will slaughter 10 zealots, because all 20 can start firing right from the start, while the zealots must each move from target to target.

Absolutely, and, I think, you can build 20 marines faster than you can build 10 zealots.

Also, you can't compare the races by only looking at one unit. The whole idea of SC is that the races are pretty much balanced - no-one would build just zealots or just lings

[ufo]

Also, you can't compare the races by only looking at one unit. The whole idea of SC is that the races are pretty much balanced - no-one would build just zealots or just lings

Exactly! A game with one unit on all sides would be kindda... boring?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Exactly! A game with one unit on all sides would be kindda... boring?

Well, the pre-patched version of Dawn of War did that quite succesfully with Space Marines.

One unit, multiple specialisations.

[snyggejygge]

I really liked the first game, & I really hope this one is going to be just as good 8but w. the great graphic I´ve seen), but it was due to the 3 races being evenly matched that the first game is so great, so I hope they keep it like that.

[Ronsian]

Ummm... Going Back, Zealots overpowered? I can pump out 4 zerglings before you get off 1 zealot. Looking at somebodies chart up there,

Zealot: 80 total "Health": 100 minerals : 16 damage
Four Zerglings: 120 total "Health: 100 minerals: 20 damage, plus more attack:Build fast

Now, how were zealots overpowered again? I believe that 2 marines can beat a zealot, same cost. Nothing in Starcraft is overpowered, just beats other things.That's the beauty.
Annnnyway, going back, who do you think the heroes are?

Raynor: Marine/something else
Kerrigan: Kickass Zerg thing
Duran: Another infested Ghost?
Terran Dominian Emp, sorry I forgot name: Ship? Tank?
Zeratul: Stalker?
Arcturus (Corsair): Another ship?
Who do you think the other heroes are? Will they add lots of cool ones? Also, what units will they add? As the secret mission and website say, dragoon place was taken over by Zerg. Will we see some infested dragoons?

[Demented]

Zealot: 160 total health.
60 shield, 100 health, yar?


Arcturus Mengsk is the emperor of the Terran Dominion.
The Brood War Protoss hero in the scout was Artanis.

[Closet_Skeleton]

It'd make sense if that were an upgrade, to keep zealots relevant in the late game (kinda like stim packs). Seriously, after you have access to carriers, arbiters, and dark templar, who uses zealots?

Like the Zerglings got that Adrenaline ability that gave them superspeed attacks?

[Destro_Yersul]

Exactly that is my point. that is how overpowered protoss are. as a base unit there should be more eqaulity. ok a rine costs a little less so you can make more say each person is given 500 minerals one to each race. and you make a squad for each (ffa basis) the zealot will own. the computer AI will even have the ling attack the zealot instead of the marine. and the marine attack the zealot instead of the ling because the zealot is so overpowered power. you spent 500 minerals in building you get 5 zealots. 10 marines and 20 lings zealots would still own both pretty good granted they may not win but would definitely put a damper on the marine or ling forces. if it were balanced then if they attacked at the same time they should both die at the same time

You have to factor in build times as well. One zealot takes a lot longer to build than marines. The gateway costs more to build than a barracks. The spawning pool costs less than each of them. It's a fairly simple matter for a zerg player to have six 'lings by the time the protoss have one zealot.

Here is how it breaks down, counting building costs:

Protoss, 500 minerals: 100 for pylon. 150 for gateway. 250 minerals left = 2 zealots.

Terran, 500 minerals: 100 for barracks. 400 minerals left = 8 marines

Zerg, 500 minerals: 50 for spawning pool. 450 minerals left = 18! zerglings

So you see, it does balance out.

[Gnome King]

Like the Zerglings got that Adrenaline ability that gave them superspeed attacks?

I think the zerglings just got a move speed increase, it was the marines who got stim packs to gain attack speed...