Undead Druid gets Planar Shepherd capstone

[Pale Sun]

Undead Druid gets Planar Shepherd capstone, are they an Undead or an Outsider?

[DrMotives]

Undead. That type is pretty much a trump, it overrides everything else.

[Necroticplague]

I'm not sure how this is a question. The class says you become and Outsider. There's no "unless you're undead" clause in it. So you become an outsider. Admittingly, an outsider without a CON score (as nothing in the class feature says it would give you one), but an outsider nonetheless.

[Pale Sun]

I'm not sure how this is a question. The class says you become and Outsider. There's no "unless you're undead" clause in it. So you become an outsider. Admittingly, an outsider without a CON score (as nothing in the class feature says it would give you one), but an outsider nonetheless.

Cause if I remember correctly there is a type pyramid and Undead and Outsider are on the same tier so Im not sure they interact.


EDIT: Found the answer myself -> Once a creature becomes an undead or a construct through the application of a templete, it cannot become something else. (Savage Species page 143).

[atemu1234]

Cause if I remember correctly there is a type pyramid and Undead and Outsider are on the same tier so Im not sure they interact.

Not in first party, that I've heard of.

[Necroticplague]

Cause if I remember correctly there is a type pyramid and Undead and Outsider are on the same tier so Im not sure they interact.


1. The type pyramid is an obsolete 3.0 rule. Doesn't apply to 3.5.
2. The type pyramid only restricts you moving from a higher level to a lower one. It does not restrict you moving 'sideways' so to speak.
3. The type pyramid is actually dysfunctional as a rule, thanks to things like Incarnate Construct (in the same book as the type pyramid).
3. The type pyramid is not absolute, and not really a rule. If you read the beggining of a relevant section, it says that it's merely a list of how hard it is to find templates that change it away from that (and indeed, it's pretty hard to become a non-undead using a template if you start out as undead).

Some creature types are easier to change than others. Some types, such as undead, cannot change (with a few, rare exceptions). As an aid to determining the type of a creature with multiple templates, we can arrange the types in the form of a pyramid. At the base of the pyramid are those types that can be changed most easily. At the top are the types can be changed only rarely, if at all.

So on every single level, the type pyramid doesn't counter my argument in any form.

[Pale Sun]

Not in first party, that I've heard of.

Found this in Savage Species "Once a creature becomes an undead or a construct through the application of a template, it cannot become something else."

[Pale Sun]

1. The type pyramid is an obsolete 3.0 rule. Doesn't apply to 3.5.
2. The type pyramid only restricts you moving from a higher level to a lower one. It does not restrict you moving 'sideways' so to speak.
3. The type pyramid is actually dysfunctional as a rule, thanks to things like Incarnate Construct (in the same book as the type pyramid).
3. The type pyramid is not absolute, and not really a rule. If you read the beggining of a relevant section, it says that it's merely a list of how hard it is to find templates that change it away from that (and indeed, it's pretty hard to become a non-undead using a template if you start out as undead).


So on every single level, the type pyramid doesn't counter my argument in any form.

Thanks for clarity. How does one deal with a no-CON Outsider? Does it instantly die?

[Necroticplague]

Thanks for clarity. How does one deal with a no-CON Outsider? Does it instantly die?

How can it die? It's not alive to begin with. It simply has a CON of -, the associated immunities, and everything else is as normal.

A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).
CON 0 is dead. CON - means not alive. Very large distinction.

[Pale Sun]

How can it die? It's not alive to begin with. It simply has a CON of -, the associated immunities, and everything else is as normal.

CON 0 is dead. CON - means not alive. Very large distinction.

So one basically gets the best of both worlds (Keeps Undead Immunities and also acquires Outsider Traits)?
I know the difference between 0 CON and - CON but Outsiders are usually alive and I didnt know how things worked in this case.
Can this creature still be turned? I assume not but Im not too sure.

[Necroticplague]

So one basically gets the best of both worlds (Keeps Undead Immunities and also acquires Outsider Traits)?
I know the difference between 0 CON and - CON but Outsiders are usually alive and I didnt know how things worked in this case.
Can this creature still be turned? I assume not but Im not too sure.

No. You'd lose Undead Traits. You keep the benefits of CON as a nonability, which does overlap a bit with Undead traits. But you'd lose things like Immunity to Mind-Effecting from undead. And oddly enough, need to start breathing again (despite lack of metabolism).

No, you can't be turned, as you're no longer undead.

[Pale Sun]

No. You'd lose Undead Traits. You keep the benefits of CON as a nonability, which does overlap a bit with Undead traits. But you'd lose things like Immunity to Mind-Effecting from undead. And oddly enough, need to start breathing again (despite lack of metabolism).

No, you can't be turned, as you're no longer undead.

And if Im correct my Concentration now gets no bonus by any ability (as in it goes back to CON bonus but no bonus from CON of course). Right?

[Necroticplague]

And if Im correct my Concentration now gets no bonus by any ability (as in it goes back to CON bonus but no bonus from CON of course). Right?

Yep. CHA to Concentration is an undead trait, which you lose.

[Inevitability]

I once created something similar, except it used Dragon Disciple. You'd end up with a non-living, non-dead dragon.

[kulosle]

So a related question. What if in gestalt you get two abilities at the same time that turn you into two different things?

[Pale Sun]

I forgot to ask but I assume the character doesnt age right?

[Necroticplague]

I forgot to ask but I assume the character doesnt age right?
Technically, they do age. Nothing about being an Outsider or and Undead creature makes you immune to aging, to the best of my knowledge.

[Inevitability]

Technically, they do age. Nothing about being an Outsider or and Undead creature makes you immune to aging, to the best of my knowledge.

However, neither of these creatures has aging effects, right? So while you'd become older, this would never really affect your in-game stats.

[Pale Sun]

However, neither of these creatures has aging effects, right? So while you'd become older, this would never really affect your in-game stats.

I've always ruled it so that mindless undead get nothing and conscious undead only get the benefits of aging. Probably incorrect but makes sense.

[Necroticplague]

However, neither of these creatures has aging effects, right? So while you'd become older, this would never really affect your in-game stats.

True. Unless the base race (assuming the undead was templated) had an aging effect chart. Or is a (Template) creature far enough from just a normal creature that it wouldn't use the same aging effects chart?

[Inevitability]

True. Unless the base race (assuming the undead was templated) had an aging effect chart. Or is a (Template) creature far enough from just a normal creature that it wouldn't use the same aging effects chart?

I'm pretty sure things like half-dragon explicitly say they extend a creature's lifespan. It would be weird if a half-dragon human spends over half his life with the physique of an old man (ignoring the strength and constitution boosts from half-dragon, of course).

[Curmudgeon]

So a related question. What if in gestalt you get two abilities at the same time that turn you into two different things?
Gestalt rules are inherently wonky; you've just provided an example to confirm this problem.

[Pale Sun]

Yep. CHA to Concentration is an undead trait, which you lose.

How would you deal with hit die? Does it go from d12 back to d8? Because by RAW it explicitly say that your hit die changes to d12 when you become undead and it says nothing about losing it after you arent undead anymore.

[FocusWolf413]

You should really just ask your DM.

[Necroticplague]

How would you deal with hit die? Does it go from d12 back to d8? Because by RAW it explicitly say that your hit die changes to d12 when you become undead and it says nothing about losing it after you aren't undead anymore.

"Replace all HD with d12" isn't inherent to the Undead type (though undead RHD are a d12). Since it's unrelated to being undead, you'd keep it. So if you were, say, a Ghost or Lich, it wouldn't change the "All current and future Hit Dice become d12s." line of its entry, because that's not related to its type change.

[Pale Sun]

You should really just ask your DM.
I am the DM and this character is a NPC.


"Replace all HD with d12" isn't inherent to the Undead type (though undead RHD are a d12). Since it's unrelated to being undead, you'd keep it. So if you were, say, a Ghost or Lich, it wouldn't change the "All current and future Hit Dice become d12s." line of its entry, because that's not related to its type change.

Seems right. Thanks.