Spring Attack Vs Two Weapon Fighting.

[Masakan]

No no no. I'm not going on that tangent again. I've learned my lesson.
But something that has been irking me for a while is the general consensus that certain classes HAVE to to be played a certain way, which i what I wanted to go over with this. And for the sake of discussion the class that will be used as an example is..you guessed it. Rouge. If only to piss a certain someone off,....that's right,You know who you are.
So anyway I don't see either as one being vastly superior to the other, but rather 2 different styles depending on what your going for, Now I won't deny that I'm biased towards one or the other, but that's more due to my disposition and way of thinking rather any technical superiority, and before anyone says anything I will openly admit that a two weapon throwing build is actually quite competent in it's own right, and with a couple of gauntlets of infinite blades can easily make you feel like the time maid from touhou. But I digress.

A Two Weapon Melee Rouge is pretty much an all or nothing gamble. There is no Feasibly safe way to play this, you go in sneak around and hope you can get close enough to stab someone to death, and if you get caught or he's still standing after your done full attacking, unless you have an out strategy, your most likely gonna die before you get to your next turn. This is effectively the assassination route.
To get the most bang for your buck you effectively need
Two weapon Fighting
Darkstalker
Weapon Finesse(Because Rouge)
and Shadowblade if your dipped into swordsage(which is often recommended)
And you preferably want all this by level 9(This is why i will never understand why some DM's forbid Flaws, They just help everybody)

Now if you did, you most likely have Cloak of Deception and Sudden leap Which makes it MUCH less of a strenuous task to get around, and makes it less likely for you to be caught out. But By god is it nerve wracking. If your the kind of player who loves living on the edge and pretty much taunting the grim reaper. This style is certainly appealing, but if your not much of a risk taker, taking a melee 2 weapon Rouge into battle is going to seem like practically suicide.

Hence the alternative The Skirmisher Rouge.
Honestly the only reason people find this unappealing is because unlike the above choices where are just essential.
Feats for a skirmisher are pretty much Required.
Dodge(which if you go swordsage can be swapped for Desert wind dodge at any given time which is infinitely better.)
Mobility(which I thought you could bypass with getting the armor enchant, but I had a discussion with a friend who is a DM and he said that he wouldn't allow enchants to qualify as feats. Not because he didn't like it but because of how easy it would be for him to get rid of it, and since it's tied to a lot of different skirmishing feats, you lost that armor and your basically useless. Which while I wanted to rebut him, I couldn't deny his logic was sound)

Weapon Finesse(again because Rouge)
And Spring attack(NO this feat is not useless)
Basically this is the safer route, You can't nova anyone obviously, but because your constantly moving along the battle field your always re-positioning yourself, making it difficult for enemies to pin you down. This build once again benefits from the tome of battle, but more so from the Oh-so mocked Desert wind. Distracting embers for basically a free sneak attack, Firey damage boosts before you driveby like a blazing comet. and a lot of added utility with things like zepher dance.
The more I look at Desert wind, the more I realize they designed it with a skirmisher in mind.(I.E someone who would take spring attack anyway) and look at the prestige class Jade Phoenix mage and arcane wrath(only works for one attack) which would really front-load a lot of drive by damage.

Also on a side note, can someone confirm whether or not desert wind dodge works with elusive target? Because if it does you would be doing yourself a massive disservice not to get this feat asap.

Really comes down to what you wanna do really but at the end of the day both sides have their high and low points.
Do you wanna play it safe or do you wanna go all in? That's really all it comes down to.

[martixy]

Classes don't have to be played any specific way.

It's just that over time a consensus has been developed that a specific certain way makes use of that classes abilities in the most optimal and efficient way with regards to overall performance in the game.

[Deophaun]

Feats for a skirmisher are pretty much Required.

1) Be Humanoid.
2) Take one level of an arcane caster of your choice.
3) PrC into Unseen Seer (Or JPM if that's your thing and you don't care much about SA).
4) Learn alter self
5) Turn into a Varag.
6) Enjoy your Spring Attack.
6a) Enjoy your 60' base speed.

[Masakan]

1) Be Humanoid.
2) Take one level of an arcane caster of your choice.
3) PrC into Unseen Seer (Or JPM if that's your thing and you don't care much about SA).
4) Learn alter self
5) Turn into a Varag.
6) Enjoy your Spring Attack.
6a) Enjoy your 60' base speed.

Let me rephrase that, It's pretty much required. Without being a Powergaming sleezeball and being ugly as sin.
Seriously Nothing against you, but I wouldn't touch the polymorph line with a 10 foot pole purely out of principle.
And no amount of power you could possibly get is worth being this ugly.
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/non-aliencreatures/images/a/ae/Varag.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20101223105425

[Deophaun]

Without being a Powergaming sleezeball and being ugly as sin.

Seriously Nothing against you
Are those complements where you're from or something?


And no amount of power you could possibly get is worth being this ugly badass.
Fixed.

[Masakan]

Are those complements where you're from or something?


Fixed.

W/E It's hideous and you clearly don't have any sense of shame. So I'm just gonna disregard you before this turns into a pointless back and forth and move on.

[EugeneVoid]

What is this thread, yo?

Is this just an argument for grabbing Spring Attack on Rogue? Its not incredible and there are better way to qualify for it. Even with Spring Attack, you aren't going to be that "mobile."

[Masakan]

What is this thread, yo?

Is this just an argument for grabbing Spring Attack on Rogue? Its not incredible and there are better way to qualify for it. Even with Spring Attack, you aren't going to be that "mobile."

No. It's not even an argument. It's basically describing the pros and cons between all in two weapon fighting, and skirmishing around with it.

But if there are better ways to get it then by all means PLEASE tell me.

Also for any Mod reading this let me explain my previous post, I have a personal beef with anybody who just randomly suggest anything from the polymorph line.
Because it's one of those spells that so hideously stupid, that if your gonna suggest it for one thing. your gonna suggest it for everything.

[Deophaun]

W/E It's hideous and you clearly don't have any sense of shame. So I'm just gonna disregard you before this turns into a pointless back and forth and move on.
I would think refraining from insulting me would a) take less effort and b) be more conducive towards your goal.

Also for any Mod reading this let me explain my previous post, I have a personal beef with anybody who just randomly suggest anything from the polymorph line.
This explanation better involved a shapechanged Zodar killing your dog.

Because it's one of those spells that so hideously stupid, that if your gonna suggest it for one thing. your gonna suggest it for everything.
. . .

[Masakan]

. . .

Yeah I said it. Just turn into whatever you need at the time.
Need a tank? Polymorph into a Hydra
Need a Good Damage dealer? Polymorph into a Thri-Keen
Need a good talker? Polymorph into a succubus/Incubus and then use changeshape to go back to your original form.
.....do you see what i mean here?

[Deophaun]

.....do you see what i mean here?
Are you acquainted with the First Rule of Holes?

[DarkSonic1337]

Flyby attack is superior to spring attack in almost every area (though the prereqs are a hassle). Ask your DM if you can qualify it through temporary fight, or if not use a magic item that lets you fly all day like the winged vest or phoenix cloak.

Flyby attack lets you take a standard action at any point during your move, not just an attack. This makes it compatible with spellcasting/maneuvers/whatever. It also doesn't have terrible prereqs.

[Masakan]

Are you acquainted with the First Rule of Holes?
Yeah your either saying that any sensible person would not abuse any of those spells to that degree to which I would say that you must also acknowledge that many people would simply not care.
OR
Your basically telling me to shut up before I embarrass myself more because I have no idea what i'm talking about.

Please clarify which one you would be referring to.

[Forrestfire]

Hydras are actually better as damage-dealers than tanks. If I wanted to polymorph into a tank, I'd likely play a warforged and alter self into a Large-sized animated object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) made of adamantine, for the Hardness 20. Thri-kreen aren't that great a choice either unless you're specialized for multiweapon fighting (although the two-weapon fighting feat does upgrade itself if you get three or more hands, so you might be).

Polymorphing into a Succubus or Incubus isn't going to get you much; polymorph doesn't grant supernatural or spell-like abilities. If you're going the route of grabbing Metamorphic Transfer or Assume Supernatural Ability then turning back into your own form, then there are better creatures to turn into (being an elan and turning into a phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm), for example, would get you the ability to turn into any form of Large size or smaller).

Incubi also aren't great talkers; they're low-ish CR melee demons that don't have good social skills whatsoever.

On-topic: personally, I greatly prefer Travel Devotion to Spring Attack. Possibly a 1-level dip into Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and some domain to give you a useful ability. It's much more reliable and allows you to attack multiple times instead of just once.

[Masakan]

Flyby attack is superior to spring attack in almost every area (though the prereqs are a hassle). Ask your DM if you can qualify it through temporary fight, or if not use a magic item that lets you fly all day like the winged vest or phoenix cloak.

Flyby attack lets you take a standard action at any point during your move, not just an attack. This makes it compatible with spellcasting/maneuvers/whatever. It also doesn't have terrible prereqs.

That wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't only Sorcerers, wizards and travel domain clerics who have access to it.
And everyone else it falls under the same problem that getting the mobility enchant, where if you lose whatever is giving you flight. You pretty much have an inactive feat until you re buy it or get whatever it was that gave you that back.
And last i checked Items that grant flight aren't cheap.


Hydras are actually better as damage-dealers than tanks. If I wanted to polymorph into a tank, I'd likely play a warforged and alter self into a Large-sized animated object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) made of adamantine, for the Hardness 20. Thri-kreen aren't that great a choice either unless you're specialized for multiweapon fighting (although the two-weapon fighting feat does upgrade itself if you get three or more hands, so you might be).

Polymorphing into a Succubus or Incubus isn't going to get you much; polymorph doesn't grant supernatural or spell-like abilities. If you're going the route of grabbing Metamorphic Transfer or Assume Supernatural Ability then turning back into your own form, then there are better creatures to turn into (being an elan and turning into a phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm), for example, would get you the ability to turn into any form of Large size or smaller).

Incubi also aren't great talkers; they're low-ish CR melee demons that don't have good social skills whatsoever.

On-topic: personally, I greatly prefer Travel Devotion to Spring Attack. Possibly a 1-level dip into Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and some domain to give you a useful ability. It's much more reliable and allows you to attack multiple times instead of just once.

Really? I always thought that incubi and succubi had the same stats just different genders.

[DarkSonic1337]

That wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't only Sorcerers, wizards and travel domain clerics who have access to it.
And everyone else it falls under the same problem that getting the mobility enchant, where if you lose whatever is giving you flight. You pretty much have an inactive feat until you re buy it or get whatever it was that gave you that back.
And last i checked Items that grant flight aren't cheap.

TEMPORARY flight is actually pretty cheap.

btw I messed up on the Winged Vest. That's the bad 5 round flight item. I was thinking Wings of Flying, the much more expensive permaflight option.

If incarnum is an option you could also try shape soulmeld (airstep sandals) for a...10' fly speed (but hey, now you qualify for flyby attack!). Upgrade your flight with temporary boosts when you need it.

[Masakan]

TEMPORARY flight is actually pretty cheap.

btw I messed up on the Winged Vest. That's the bad 5 round flight item. I was thinking Wings of Flying, the much more expensive permaflight option.

If incarnum is an option you could also try shape soulmeld (airstep sandals) for a...10' fly speed (but hey, now you qualify for flyby attack!). Upgrade your flight with temporary boosts when you need it.

How "Temporary" are we talking here?

[Deophaun]

Please clarify which one you would be referring to.
While neither was my point, you are making a good case for the later.

That wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't only Sorcerers, wizards and travel domain clerics who have access to it.
Bards. Warlocks. Dragonfire Adepts. Rangers (Wild Shape ACF). Heck, Battledancers.

I'm sure Binders have fly somewhere.

[Forrestfire]

Really? I always thought that incubi and succubi had the same stats just different genders.

Nope! While succubi are generally seductive corruptors/temptresses (regardless of gender), incubi in D&D represent the more... Erm... Aggressive side of sexuality. CR 3 demons with a focus on sneaky melee tactics (sneak attack damage as a racial ability, in fact), and deal Wisdom damage instead of energy drain with their acts of passion. They were detailed in Dragon #353.

Succubi in a male form are sometimes referred to as incubi in-universe, but they are different species of Tanar'ri.

Regarding flight, there are various feats you can use to get flying as well as racial traits, class features, and spells. In addition, if you're willing to dirty yourself with touching the Artificer's toys, you can get all-day, Perfect-maneuverability flight with only 18,800gp and either some feats, or an ally with some feats. You'd need to worry about dispels, but it's cheaper than most other ways.

[Masakan]

While neither was my point, you are making a good case for the later.

Bards. Warlocks. Dragonfire Adepts. Rangers (Wild Shape ACF). Heck, Battledancers.

I'm sure Binders have fly somewhere.

Well forgive me for finding swift fly and the like to be completely pointless.

[Deophaun]

Well forgive me for finding swift fly and the like to be completely pointless.
Alter self. Bard 2.

Go on...

[OldTrees1]

Yes this forum has a problem with loud consensus and quieter alternatives. The "Fistful of D6s" Rogue guide is a great example of that error.

You listed Dark Stalker and Shadow Blade under the TWF style. I think this is a mistake. Dark Stalker applies to TWF Stealths and Spring Attack Stealths alike. Weapon Finess/Shadow Blade likewise apply to both combat styles when it is even worth taking(+numbers feats are poorer choices in general).


However let's examine the Skirmisher(Spring Attack, Ride By Attack, or Flyby Attack) vs the TWF combat style:
Both styles have a mild feat prerequisite at the low end(just Flyby Attack for flying races* vs just TWF) although things like Spring Attack take a couple more(Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack).
The TWF style focuses on getting Full Attacks which comes with up to 3 extra attacks worth mentioning (TWF, ITWF from Gloves, and BAB+6). These extra attacks act like a power multiplier both in quantitative and qualitative measurements.
On the other hand, the Skrimisher style focuses on denying your opponent some of their attacks by being fully/partially out of reach during their turn
In conclusion both of those combat styles have their merits.

Of course that is not to mention the other Rogue combat styles like:
Archery, AoOs, Knockback/Knock-down, Evasive Reflexes, ...


*Of 3 feats for non flying races (Flight Prereq, Flight, Flyby Attack)


Alter self. Bard 2.

Go on...

When the OP clarifies that the Polymorph line of spells is not relevant to this thread, I tend to listen.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Spring Attack is, by itself, not a valid playstyle for several reasons.
1. You don't do enough damage. A single attack at medium BAB is not enough to qualify as a damage dealer after the low levels. Even with SA, Craven and Burning Blade (which many monsters are resistant/immune to anyway, because fire). Yes, you can get around that with a ton of optimization, but you're basically handycapping yourself.

2. It's not less dangerous than TWF. You only move 30ft. That means you are maybe 10-20ft away from the enemy when your turn ends. Perfect charging distance, in other words. For most bigger monsters it means you're not even getting out of their threatened area. Even if you buff your speed you'll still be in charging distance without some serious effort.

3. It costs 3 feats, 2 of which are pretty much useless. TWF costs feats too, but at least they're doing something notable to make you better.

People mentioned Flyby Attack, which is much better (it allows you to use martial strikes, taking care of 1. It only costs 1 feat. Fly speeds are usually higher than land, and most brute monsters can't fly). Sadly it's not available until you're a few levels in unless you get a race with natural flight.

[eggynack]

When the OP clarifies that the Polymorph line of spells is not relevant to this thread, I tend to listen.
When the OP clarifies that the polymorph line isn't relevant with a baseless insult from out of nowhere, I tend to not listen.

[Masakan]

When the OP clarifies that the polymorph line isn't relevant with a baseless insult from out of nowhere, I tend to not listen.
Because Like i told the other guy, If your gonna suggest Polymorph for one thing, you will likely suggest it for everything.
Therefore when people just spout out "use Polymorph, because screw actually being creative" It tends to irk me.


Yes this forum has a problem with loud consensus and quieter alternatives. The "Fistful of D6s" Rogue guide is a great example of that error.

You listed Dark Stalker and Shadow Blade under the TWF style. I think this is a mistake. Dark Stalker applies to TWF Stealths and Spring Attack Stealths alike. Weapon Finess/Shadow Blade likewise apply to both combat styles when it is even worth taking(+numbers feats are poorer choices in general).


However let's examine the Skirmisher(Spring Attack, Ride By Attack, or Flyby Attack) vs the TWF combat style:
Both styles have a mild feat prerequisite at the low end(just Flyby Attack for flying races* vs just TWF) although things like Spring Attack take a couple more(Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack).
The TWF style focuses on getting Full Attacks which comes with up to 3 extra attacks worth mentioning (TWF, ITWF from Gloves, and BAB+6). These extra attacks act like a power multiplier both in quantitative and qualitative measurements.
On the other hand, the Skrimisher style focuses on denying your opponent some of their attacks by being fully/partially out of reach during their turn
In conclusion both of those combat styles have their merits.

Of course that is not to mention the other Rogue combat styles like:
Archery, AoOs, Knockback/Knock-down, Evasive Reflexes, ...


*Of 3 feats for non flying races (Flight Prereq, Flight, Flyby Attack)



When the OP clarifies that the Polymorph line of spells is not relevant to this thread, I tend to listen.

Yeah the basic feel I've been getting from the people of this site is that, if it doesn't do damage or if it can't end an encounter in 3 turns or less(Not counting Mop-up rounds) it sucks and isn't even worth considering.

[OldTrees1]

Yeah the basic feel I've been getting from the people of this site is that, if it doesn't do damage or if it can't end an encounter in 3 turns or less(Not counting Mop-up rounds) it sucks and isn't even worth considering.

I have found controlling my end(aka how I approach/word things) to the forum has improved the quality of the replies. (Notice eggynack's excuse for making an exception and ignoring your request due to "a baseless insult from out of nowhere")

When I am seeking information
1) I specify the limits(things like the no polymorph thing) is a calm peaceful manner
2) I word my request to imply I recognize they have information I lack and are thus able to help

The only time I attempted to start a topic to inform the forum, it was a well researched mini handbook about large yet finite undead armies(backed up with solid math).''

In both cases I attempt to be at least an order of magnitude more polite/patient/understanding/mature than the forum(to overwhelm the natural cognitive bias to be less mature).



With that said, I could not figure out your intent for this thread. Were you trying to inform, discuss, or ask?

[Deophaun]

Because Like i told the other guy, If your gonna suggest Polymorph for one thing, you will likely suggest it for everything.
Therefore when people just spout out "use Polymorph, because screw actually being creative" It tends to irk me.
There was another guy?

Hey, Masakan. Do me a favor. Look to the left. See that date? Tells you how long I've been on these forums. Why don't you do a Google search, and list me off... oh... three times I've suggested polymorph. Or shape change. I'll admit to alter self. I love that spell, just as I love dragoneye rune. But, if you are going to make such an easily verified assertion, I expect you will be able to back it up.

Or, how about you guess how many times I've used a spell from the polymorph line that wasn't alter self? How many times have I changed into that hydra (or turned my familiar into one?) Give me a number. 0 to infinity. If you guess lower than the actual number of times I've done it, I will give you a million dollars. Easy money. I use alter self. Therefore, I have no self control and am a hideous Powergaming slimeball. That's what gives you justification to insult me, right?

Or, you know, you could just put down the shovel already.

[Masakan]

There was another guy?

Hey, Masakan. Do me a favor. Look to the left. See that date? Tells you how long I've been on these forums. Why don't you do a Google search, and list me off... oh... three times I've suggested polymorph. Or shape change. I'll admit to alter self. I love that spell, just as I love dragoneye rune. But, if you are going to make such an easily verified assertion, I expect you will be able to back it up.

Or, how about you guess how many times I've used a spell from the polymorph line that wasn't alter self? How many times have I changed into that hydra (or turned my familiar into one?) Give me a number. 0 to infinity. If you guess lower than the actual number of times I've done it, I will give you a million dollars. Easy money. I use alter self. Therefore, I have no self control and am a hideous Powergaming slimeball. That's what gives you justification to insult me, right?

Or, you know, you could just put down the shovel already.

You mean you actually took that personally? Good lord quit being such a pantywaist already.
If you aren't what I think you are then why drag it out?


I have found controlling my end(aka how I approach/word things) to the forum has improved the quality of the replies. (Notice eggynack's excuse for making an exception and ignoring your request due to "a baseless insult from out of nowhere")

When I am seeking information
1) I specify the limits(things like the no polymorph thing) is a calm peaceful manner
2) I word my request to imply I recognize they have information I lack and are thus able to help

The only time I attempted to start a topic to inform the forum, it was a well researched mini handbook about large yet finite undead armies(backed up with solid math).''

In both cases I attempt to be at least an order of magnitude more polite/patient/understanding/mature than the forum(to overwhelm the natural cognitive bias to be less mature).



With that said, I could not figure out your intent for this thread. Were you trying to inform, discuss, or ask?

All I wanted was to discuss the pros and cons of both, but all I get is "This thing is better".
And you'll have to forgive me, I have little patience for people stuck in their own little worlds.

[OldTrees1]

There was another guy?

Hey, Masakan. Do me a favor. Look to the left. See that date? Tells you how long I've been on these forums. Why don't you do a Google search, and list me off... oh... three times I've suggested polymorph. Or shape change. I'll admit to alter self. I love that spell, just as I love dragoneye rune. But, if you are going to make such an easily verified assertion, I expect you will be able to back it up.

Or, how about you guess how many times I've used a spell from the polymorph line that wasn't alter self? How many times have I changed into that hydra (or turned my familiar into one?) Give me a number. 0 to infinity. If you guess lower than the actual number of times I've done it, I will give you a million dollars. Easy money. I use alter self. Therefore, I have no self control and am a hideous Powergaming slimeball. That's what gives you justification to insult me, right?

Or, you know, you could just put down the shovel already.

Why are you derailing the thread like this? I understand that you are annoyed, frustrated, or even angry at the OP, but that would not prevent me from listening when the OP clarifies the scope of the OP's thread.

You can do as you wish, I just notice I am confused and hope for ...

[eggynack]

Because Like i told the other guy, If your gonna suggest Polymorph for one thing, you will likely suggest it for everything.
Therefore when people just spout out "use Polymorph, because screw actually being creative" It tends to irk me.

It's a versatile spell, but even it has its limits. In fact, I would consider using polymorph optimally, a task that touches upon what may be the majority of books in the system, a far more involved, creative, and interesting task than determining how to optimize combat on a rogue. The power of options means the responsibility of picking the right ones, and the opportunity cost if you fail is far higher. Going down the wrong road means letting down the potential of the spell.

So, what I'm saying is that people don't say, "Use polymorph, because screw actually being creative." They say, "Use polymorph, which is one creative solution among many, in a fashion I designated through the use of my system mastery." And, more critically, your response shouldn't really be, "Your form smells and your use of it indicates that you're a jerk." It could just be something as simple as, "That could work as one viable approach. Anyone got any others?" Because honestly, if your hope is to not make your thread one about polymorph, that approach is going to work far better. I mean, look where we are right now, having yet another discussion about this sort of play that you seem to despise. What do you think the thread would look like in that alternate universe?

Edit:
(Notice eggynack's excuse for making an exception and ignoring your request due to "a baseless insult from out of nowhere")

To be more accurate, with more technical language than I did initially, my issue was that Masakan didn't really claim any basis for his issue beyond insulting a whole class of players. Something like, "I'd prefer to keep this in the realm of the mundane, because otherwise all of this optimization is essentially irrelevant," would be perfectly fine. Instead, he chose the option that drove the thread into conflict.

Why are you derailing the thread like this? I understand that you are annoyed, frustrated, or even angry at the OP, but that would not prevent me from listening when the OP clarifies the scope of the OP's thread.

This is the essence of my point. You're acting like Deophaun is swinging at imaginary giants, but Masakan was the one that derailed his own thread. Clarification is fine. Insults are not, and acting like responding to an insult is "derailing" seems ludicrous to me.

[Masakan]

It's a versatile spell, but even it has its limits. In fact, I would consider using polymorph optimally, a task that touches upon what may be the majority of books in the system, a far more involved, creative, and interesting task than determining how to optimize combat on a rogue. The power of options means the responsibility of picking the right ones, and the opportunity cost if you fail is far higher. Going down the wrong road means letting down the potential of the spell.

So, what I'm saying is that people don't say, "Use polymorph, because screw actually being creative." They say, "Use polymorph, which is one creative solution among many, in a fashion I designated through the use of my system mastery." And, more critically, your response shouldn't really be, "Your form smells and your use of it indicates that you're a jerk." It could just be something as simple as, "That could work as one viable approach. Anyone got any others?" Because honestly, if your hope is to not make your thread one about polymorph, that approach is going to work far better. I mean, look where we are right now, having yet another discussion about this sort of play that you seem to despise. What do you think the thread would look like in that alternate universe?

You mean an alternate universe where the guy who started this didn't decide to waste my time? Nothing because he wouldn't be here.
I mean now look at him he's derailing on purpose, and you wanna know something? This is me being NICE, you don't wanna see me actually go off. I'm actually restraining myself because I have little patience for stupid.

[OldTrees1]

@Masakan

If they are saying nothing relevant to the thread, then just ignore their posts (possibly reporting them if you believe they broke forum rules) and continue on topic.


So was your purpose to inform, discuss, or ask about various combat styles?

[eggynack]

You mean an alternate universe where the guy who started this didn't decide to waste my time? Nothing because he wouldn't be here.

No, I obviously mean an alternate universe where you didn't respond to a polite offer of information with an insult. No one decided to waste your time. Deophaun made a perfectly reasonable post, and you decided to call him a sleezeball. What did you expect?

I mean now look at him he's derailing on purpose, and you wanna know something? This is me being NICE, you don't wanna see me actually go off. I'm actually restraining myself because I have little patience for stupid.
Again, he's only responding to things you've explicitly said. You are the responsible party here. And implicitly calling Deophaun stupid isn't helping matters.

[Masakan]

@Masakan

If they are saying nothing relevant to the thread, then just ignore their posts (possibly reporting them if you believe they broke forum rules) and continue on topic.


So was your purpose to inform, discuss, or ask about various combat styles?
Discuss. I just wanted to get a discussion going talking about the pros and cons between the 2.


No, I obviously mean an alternate universe where you didn't respond to a polite offer of information with an insult. No one decided to waste your time. Deophaun made a perfectly reasonable post, and you decided to call him a sleezeball. What did you expect?

Again, he's only responding to things you've explicitly said. You are the responsible party here. And implicitly calling Deophaun stupid isn't helping matters.

Yes because clearly I wanted to start a thread, about different ways of using feats. and then having 30 people come in and say "Just use magic /end thread" If you think there are better ways to do something then fine, but if your not gonna say something that's actually productive, then do us both a favor and don't even bother posting. We'll both be a lot happier. I can't put it any nicer than that.

[Deophaun]

Why are you derailing the thread like this?

I've derailed nothing. I've only pursued Masakan's line of discussion, which was what a horrible powergamer I am. I advised him on several occasions that he would be well advised to cease insulting me if he wanted to discuss the topic. He instead continued. I can only assume this is how he wants it.

Besides, I really don't understand the point of the arbitrary limits he has placed. The OP wasn't a question. He stated in broad, general terms that:


Honestly the only reason people find this unappealing is because unlike the above choices where are just essential.
With such a statement, his actual opinion regarding polymorph-like spells is entirely irrelevant. He derailed his own thread by talking about how much he hates those spells.

You mean you actually took that personally? Good lord quit being such a pantywaist already.
If you aren't what I think you are then why drag it out?
I was trying to see if you would give me a reason not to report the post. I seem to recall you talking about your infractions (or maybe that was another guy). But, if you insist.

[Masakan]

I've derailed nothing. I've only pursued Masakan's line of discussion, which was what a horrible powergamer I am. I advised him on several occasions that he would be well advised to cease insulting me if he wanted to discuss the topic. He instead continued. I can only assume this is how he wants it.

Besides, I really don't understand the point of the arbitrary limits he has placed. The OP wasn't a question. He stated in broad, general terms that:


With such a statement, his actual opinion regarding polymorph-like spells is entirely irrelevant. He derailed his own thread by talking about how much he hates those spells.

I was trying to see if you would give me a reason not to report the post. I seem to recall you talking about your infractions (or maybe that was another guy). But, if you insist.

Know what? If that makes you happy, then go right ahead. I am no better or worse off getting banned from this site regardless, I will not lose any sleep and I won't be any worse for wear not having an account. If you will feel so accomplished reporting an account that has been around for all of 2 months then by all means, report me, get me banned and feel proud of yourself. Lord knows you need it.

[eggynack]

Yes because clearly I wanted to start a thread, about different ways of using feats. and then having 30 people come in and say "Just use magic /end thread" If you think there are better ways to do something then fine, but if your not gonna say something that's actually productive, then do us both a favor and don't even bother posting. We'll both be a lot happier. I can't put it any nicer than that.
Exactly one person said that you should use magic, and you immediately started a fight. Other people talked about magic afterwards, but that was largely in response to your actions. Like it or not, you caused this. You are responsible for your thread's derailing, and if you honestly wanted to discuss the topic core to this thread, then you've been acting against your own interests.

[Masakan]

Exactly one person said that you should use magic, and you immediately started a fight. Other people talked about magic afterwards, but that was largely in response to your actions. Like it or not, you caused this. You are responsible for your thread's derailing, and if you honestly wanted to discuss the topic core to this thread, then you've been acting against your own interests.
Tch....So i have a short temper...what's your point?

[Baroknik]

Tch....So i have a short temper...what's your point?

I think he is suggesting that working on having better control over your responses on this forum may not only result in people being generally friendlier and more helpful, but also in less side-tracking from the discussions that you find interesting.

Edit: phone spelling typo

[Deophaun]

Exactly one person said that you should use magic, and you immediately started a fight. Other people talked about magic afterwards, but that was largely in response to your actions. Like it or not, you caused this. You are responsible for your thread's derailing, and if you honestly wanted to discuss the topic core to this thread, then you've been acting against your own interests.
It's worse. He actually brought up JPM in his OP, which is why I mentioned it. Seemed appropriate to mention it if the build was already capable of casting the spell.

I just screwed up and didn't take that mindbender dip.

[Masakan]

It's worse. He actually brought up JPM in his OP, which is why I mentioned it. Seemed appropriate to mention it if the build was already capable of casting the spell.

I just screwed up and didn't take that mindbender dip.

...I just brought it up as an example of what could be done.......

[OldTrees1]

Discuss. I just wanted to get a discussion going talking about the pros and cons between the 2.

Ok. So both sides do take some initial preparation(feat prerequisites).

Personally I do favor the Flyby Attack style of Spring Attack even at the higher prep cost (Dragonborn, or Dragon Wings + Improved Dragon Wings, or Aberrant Blood + Starspawn). I favor it because it has all the benefit of Spring Attack(Improved Flyby Attack catches the AoO immunity), it has 3D movement which makes it even easier to get out of reach, and it leaves itself open to any Standard Action rather than just basic melee attacks.

Summary: You get in and back to relative safety only suffering readied actions but in exchange you only get 1 attack/Maneuver/other Standard Action. Costs 3-4 feats to gain this style but it comes with Flight so that is nice. You still need to consider ranged threats like archers and casters though so the defensive value is not perfect.

For Two Weapon Fighting, I favor the Spirit Lion Pounce option but the Swift Action movement(Sudden Leap for example) have their merits too. This style has remarkable synergy with the AoO style (Combat Reflexes + Double Hit + 2 feats for Reach). It usually only takes 1 feat (TWF) + 1 class feature (movement) + 1 item(ITWF). Adding in the combat reflexes synergy would take 4 more feats.

Summary: You get in, make lots of attacks on your turn, make more on their turn, make still more on your turn, and then can retreat if needed. As a result you risk 1 round of danger in exchange for 2-3 rounds of attacks. This style does cost more at around 7 feats worth of cost(5 feats, 1 feature, 1 item). While this has a higher offensive ability(even when not measuring via damage), it ends up without a defensive boost.

Summary of summaries:
Flyby Attack is a good defensive(reduced battlefield impact to you or them) style, especially if you can find hard total cover. Two Weapon Fighting is a good offensive(increased battlefield impact to you and them) style.

[Masakan]

Ok. So both sides do take some initial preparation(feat prerequisites).

Personally I do favor the Flyby Attack style of Spring Attack even at the higher prep cost (Dragonborn, or Dragon Wings + Improved Dragon Wings, or Aberrant Blood + Starspawn). I favor it because it has all the benefit of Spring Attack(Improved Flyby Attack catches the AoO immunity), it has 3D movement which makes it even easier to get out of reach, and it leaves itself open to any Standard Action rather than just basic melee attacks.

Summary: You get in and back to relative safety only suffering readied actions but in exchange you only get 1 attack/Maneuver/other Standard Action. Costs 3-4 feats to gain this style but it comes with Flight so that is nice. You still need to consider ranged threats like archers and casters though so the defensive value is not perfect.

For Two Weapon Fighting, I favor the Spirit Lion Pounce option but the Swift Action movement(Sudden Leap for example) have their merits too. This style has remarkable synergy with the AoO style (Combat Reflexes + Double Hit + 2 feats for Reach). It usually only takes 1 feat (TWF) + 1 class feature (movement) + 1 item(ITWF). Adding in the combat reflexes synergy would take 4 more feats.

Summary: You get in, make lots of attacks on your turn, make more on their turn, make still more on your turn, and then can retreat if needed. As a result you risk 1 round of danger in exchange for 2-3 rounds of attacks. This style does cost more at around 7 feats worth of cost(5 feats, 1 feature, 1 item). While this has a higher offensive ability(even when not measuring via damage), it ends up without a defensive boost.

Summary of summaries:
Flyby Attack is a good defensive(reduced battlefield impact to you or them) style, especially if you can find hard total cover. Two Weapon Fighting is a good offensive(increased battlefield impact to you and them) style.

That's a large part of what I thought, much better TWF is if you have a stronger chassis than a d8
Though Imo, getting flyby attack without some long lasting, consistent flying is much more trouble than it's worth.

[Greenish]

You could get pounce and travel devotion to maintain some distance. AoO might be a problem though.

On the other hand, rogues get proficiency with shortbow. If going into melee range is too exciting for you, and you're not expected to bring serious damage to the table, you could always plink away with the bow. :smalltongue:

[EDIT]:
Though Imo, getting flyby attack without some long lasting, consistent flying is much more trouble than it's worth.It's one feat. If the DM takes away your gear, your biggest problem won't be "oh no, I have a feat I can't use".

[OldTrees1]

That's a large part of what I thought, much better TWF is if you have a stronger chassis than a d8
Though Imo, getting flyby attack without some long lasting, consistent flying is much more trouble than it's worth.

A d8+1(pre items) is fine for TWF unless your table is DPS focused in its optimization. My default melee brute is a Martial Rogue.

Getting Flyby attack without something like Raptorian/Dragonborn/Improved Dragon Wings/Starspawn/Fly/Overland Flight is more trouble than it is worth (in part due to the trouble of dodging these tasty options). Those that avoid these wonderful options would settle on the weaker and roughly as expensive Spring Attack.

[Nihilarian]

Spring Attack is awful and outside of prerequisites or flavor there is never a reason to take it, not with flight being so useful that everyone wants or even needs it. That puts the vastly superior and cheaper Flyby Attack on the table.

A skirmishing style of fighting has little to offer a rogue mechanically - archery is as safe and is almost guaranteed to deal twice as much or more damage. As well, the rogue has little to offer the skirmishing style, either. In particular there's nothing a rogue can do as a skirmisher that wouldn't be done better by a pure Swordsage. Standard action strikes go really well with Flyby Attack and the Swordsage has access to flight and teleportation not to mention the Stalker in the Night maneuver, which is spring Attack without bad prerequisites, that allows you to stay hidden.

People tend to optimize the rogues damage output because that's usually the most significant thing it offers any build it appears in.

[Masakan]

A d8+1(pre items) is fine for TWF unless your table is DPS focused in its optimization. My default melee brute is a Martial Rogue.

Getting Flyby attack without something like Raptorian/Dragonborn/Improved Dragon Wings/Starspawn/Fly/Overland Flight is more trouble than it is worth. Those that avoid these wonderful options would settle on the weaker and roughly as expensive Spring Attack.
Idk I've never felt comfortable putting a character in the frontlines with anything less than a D10
Never liked the feel of Raptorans, I would rather take the breath than the wings, needs to be a silverbrow which in a lot of cases isnt an option, no idea what the hell a star spawn is, good for a gish, and even better for a gish.


Spring Attack is awful and outside of prerequisites or flavor there is never a reason to take it, not with flight being so useful that everyone wants or even needs it. That puts the vastly superior and cheaper Flyby Attack on the table.

A skirmishing style of fighting has little to offer a rogue mechanically - archery is as safe and is almost guaranteed to deal twice as much or more damage. As well, the rogue has little to offer the skirmishing style, either. In particular there's nothing a rogue can do as a skirmisher that wouldn't be done better by a pure Swordsage. Standard action strikes go really well with Flyby Attack and the Swordsage has access to flight and teleportation not to mention the Stalker in the Night maneuver, which is spring Attack without bad prerequisites, that allows you to stay hidden.

People tend to optimize the rogues damage output because that's usually the most significant thing it offers any build it appears in.
While I don't particularly agree with the notion, at least you make sense.

[OldTrees1]

People tend to optimize the rogues damage output because that's usually the most significant thing it offers any build it appears in.

Honestly, that is quite strange since Rogue's skills are second only to Factotum(and only then due to Int differences). :smallsmile:


Idk I've never felt comfortable putting a character in the frontlines with anything less than a D10
Never liked the feel of Raptorans, I would rather take the breath than the wings, needs to be a silverbrow which in a lot of cases isnt an option, no idea what the hell a star spawn is, good for a gish, and even better for a gish.

I have been fine with a d10(or a d8+1) as long as I eventually (12th level?) grab a amulet of +2/+4 Con.

I like the Dragonborn Raptorians refluffed as Dragonkin(Breath + Wings Dragonborn).

You would rather take the breath? Huh. The Monster Manuel expects you in the air at/after 6th level. Still I can understand since breath is my 2nd choice.

Silverbrow, or any other dragonblood race, or Dragonborn(Breath), or take the Dragontouched feat

Starspawn(Fly = 1/2 land speed) just requires you take the Aberrant Blood feat (which also unlocks a +reach feat).

[Nihilarian]

Honestly, that is quite strange since Rogue's skills are second only to Factotum(and only then due to Int differences). :smallsmile:"usually", not "always".

[eggynack]

Tch....So i have a short temper...what's your point?


I think he is suggesting that working on having better control over your responses on this forum may not only result in people being generally friendlier and more helpful, but also in less side-tracking from the discussions that you find interesting.

Pretty much that second thing in response to the first thing. The point is that, if you choose to proceed like this, the result is going to be more threads like this one. More lengthy arguments that have nothing to do with what you intended, more broad digressions into magic and magic accessories. The point is that your actions have consequences, and those consequences are right in front of you. You have a choice to make here. If all you care about is having this argument again and again, then go on antagonizing anyone who brings up anything caster related with broad and pointless insults. If you actually care about having this discussion, then you should probably not do that. But, in the former case, I suppose everyone should read your threads and posts under the assumption that you're operating under false pretenses.

[Greenish]

Idk I've never felt comfortable putting a character in the frontlines with anything less than a D10
20 levels of d6 HD gets you average HP of 72.5 (before Con).
20 levels of d8 HD gets you average HP of 93.5 (before Con).
20 levels of d10 HD gets you average HP of 114.5 (before Con).

Each increase lets you survive approximately one more hit from a Very Old Red Dragon (CR 21). Said dragon has seven attacks in a full attack.


This isn't to say that rogue isn't fragile in melee, because rogue is. But so is a fighter. Getting full attacked by a dragon is a losing proposition for either.

[Masakan]

20 levels of d6 HD gets you average HP of 72.5 (before Con).
20 levels of d8 HD gets you average HP of 93.5 (before Con).
20 levels of d10 HD gets you average HP of 114.5 (before Con).

Each increase lets you survive approximately one more hit from a Very Old Red Dragon (CR 21). Said dragon has seven attacks in a full attack.


This isn't to say that rogue isn't fragile in melee, because rogue is. But so is a fighter. Getting full attacked by a dragon is a losing proposition for either.

Which is why I usually make sure my characters don't have any less than 14 con.


Pretty much that second thing in response to the first thing. The point is that, if you choose to proceed like this, the result is going to be more threads like this one. More lengthy arguments that have nothing to do with what you intended, more broad digressions into magic and magic accessories. The point is that your actions have consequences, and those consequences are right in front of you. You have a choice to make here. If all you care about is having this argument again and again, then go on antagonizing anyone who brings up anything caster related with broad and pointless insults. If you actually care about having this discussion, then you should probably not do that. But, in the former case, I suppose everyone should read your threads and posts under the assumption that you're operating under false pretenses.

If you honestly think that I only make posts to cause trouble, That says a lot more about you than it does about me.

[eggynack]

If you honestly think that I only make posts to cause trouble, That says a lot more about you than it does about me.
That's not what I said. What I said is that, if you're not just posting to cause trouble, then the things you are doing are against your own self interest. If you want more of this sort of argument, then keep doing what you're doing, but if you don't, then I would advise not doing these things.

[OldTrees1]

That's not what I said. What I said is that, if you're not just posting to cause trouble, then the things you are doing are against your own self interest. If you want more of this sort of argument, then keep doing what you're doing, but if you don't, then I would advise not doing these things.

Please note the parallelism of my post to your post when interpreting it.

If your posts to Masakan in this thread are not just to cause trouble, then the way you are talking to Masakan is against your own self interest. If you want more of this sort of argument, then keep doing what you're doing, but if you don't, then I would advise changing your approach.

You have biased Masakan against you and your advice, to pierce that bias you would need to make a noticeable change in your approach on par with the bias you have engendered.

[Masakan]

Please note the parallelism of my post to your post when interpreting it.

If your posts to Masakan in this thread are not just to cause trouble, then the way you are talking to Masakan is against your own self interest. If you want more of this sort of argument, then keep doing what you're doing, but if you don't, then I would advise changing your approach.

In other words your being a hypocrite by keeping this going.

[OldTrees1]

In other words your being a hypocrite by keeping this going.

Not what I said nor what I meant. I meant the well meaning advice he was trying to give you, he would need to take advantage of himself if he wanted you to receive the advice.

[Nihilarian]

In other words your being a hypocrite by keeping this going.his goal isn't to shut the argument in this thread down, it's to stop such arguments from occurring in future threads.

[Masakan]

Not what I said nor what I meant. I meant the well meaning advice he was trying to give you, he would need to take advantage of himself if he wanted you to receive the advice.
In a way what you said was also what i meant, basically take your own advice and practice what you preach.

[eggynack]

Please note the parallelism of my post to your post when interpreting it.

If your posts to Masakan in this thread are not just to cause trouble, then the way you are talking to Masakan is against your own self interest. If you want more of this sort of argument, then keep doing what you're doing, but if you don't, then I would advise changing your approach.
My goal in this particular case is to convince Masakan to stop doing this sort of thing, because he actually does it a lot. A secondary goal is to defend Deophaun, particularly because you've seen fit to jab at him repeatedly despite the fact that he's done nothing wrong. Lacking in your asserted parallel is where my approach is flawed, or how it could be improved, because if neither a flaw nor an improvement is possible, then I'd venture to say that I'm acting as much in my own self interest as I plausibly can be. And, to go even more meta for a moment, if one of those two things is in existence, then you are acting in a manner at best neutral to your own self interest by not presenting it.

In any case, I think I've been rather polite in my approach to this issue, with perhaps an occasional exception, so while there could plausibly be an improvement in my rhetoric, I doubt it goes so far as to act opposed to my intent as you've asserted. Granted, it's entirely possible that all of this is futile, and that altering behavior here in any manner is impossible, but I still think this is about as good as a shot can get. So, I figure that I'm at worst acting in my slight self interest, because I'll be accomplishing my secondary objective while winding up neutral relative to my core objective.

Edit:
In a way what you said was also what i meant, basically take your own advice and practice what you preach.
I practice exactly what I preach. My arguments are well structured and logical, my wording is polite, and my end goal is kept always in mind throughout every sentence. In no way am I perfect, but I am certainly not telling you to do something that I don't strive towards constantly.

[Masakan]

Edit:
I practice exactly what I preach. My arguments are well structured and logical, my wording is polite, and my end goal is kept always in mind throughout every sentence. In no way am I perfect, but I am certainly not telling you to do something that I don't strive towards constantly.

At the same time it also sounds like your trying too hard, and in a lot of cases you come off as fake.

[OldTrees1]

My goal in this particular case is to convince Masakan to stop doing this sort of thing, because he actually does it a lot. A secondary goal is to defend Deophaun, particularly because you've seen fit to jab at him repeatedly despite the fact that he's done nothing wrong. Lacking in your asserted parallel is where my approach is flawed, or how it could be improved, because if neither a flaw nor an improvement is possible, then I'd venture to say that I'm acting as much in my own self interest as I plausibly can be. And, to go even more meta for a moment, if one of those two things is in existence, then you are acting in a manner at best neutral to your own self interest by not presenting it.

In any case, I think I've been rather polite in my approach to this issue, with perhaps an occasional exception, so while there could plausibly be an improvement in my rhetoric, I doubt it goes so far as to act opposed to my intent as you've asserted. Granted, it's entirely possible that all of this is futile, and that altering behavior here in any manner is impossible, but I still think this is about as good as a shot can get. So, I figure that I'm at worst acting in my slight self interest, because I'll be accomplishing my secondary objective while winding up neutral relative to my core objective.

Edit:
I practice exactly what I preach. My arguments are well structured and logical, my wording is polite, and my end goal is kept always in mind throughout every sentence. In no way am I perfect, but I am certainly not telling you to do something that I don't strive towards constantly.

You do practice what you preach. However in this case your current method is not working. Masakan is taking your posts as less than peaceful (the evidence speaks for itself) which implies a different tack is advised.

[eggynack]

At the same time it also sounds like your trying too hard, and in a lot of cases you come off as fake.
I probably do try too hard, to the first point. My posts tend to be well tailored, and occasionally take way longer to think up than they have any right to. I occasionally tend towards a more informal way method of writing, with breaks from traditional syntax and semantics made with some care, but that requires more effort if anything. I think I tend more towards the formal when I'm making more structured arguments, because I think the language fits the purpose, but I can't be sure. I'm not sure what exactly is leading to the writing coming across as fake, but I assure you, the things I'm saying are sincerely meant. It's worth note, at the same time, that I never told you that your posts didn't look effortless enough, or that they looked too fakey, so even if your claims are true ones, I still definitely didn't act in a hypocritical manner.

Edit:
You do practice what you preach. However in this case your current method is not working. Masakan is taking your posts as less than peaceful (the evidence speaks for itself) which implies a different tack is advised.
It is very possible that my method is ineffective here, but at the same time, it's the only method that seems like it could plausibly work. I mean, what're the alternatives here? Just leave it be and wait for the insults to flow the next time someone brings up anything magic related? Start to take on some weird hyper-aggressive stance? If no other tack exists, then taking this one seems the only correct course of action.

[LanSlyde]

https://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/flamewar.jpg?w=300


http://s9.favim.com/orig/131026/abandon-thread-reaction-pics-thread-sucks-pic-fail-meme-picture-Favim.com-1017189.gif

[OldTrees1]

I probably do try too hard, to the first point. My posts tend to be well tailored, and occasionally take way longer to think up than they have any right to. I occasionally tend towards a more informal way method of writing, with breaks from traditional syntax and semantics made with some care, but that requires more effort if anything. I think I tend more towards the formal when I'm making more structured arguments, because I think the language fits the purpose, but I can't be sure. I'm not sure what exactly is leading to the writing coming across as fake, but I assure you, the things I'm saying are sincerely meant. It's worth note, at the same time, that I never told you that your posts didn't look effortless enough, or that they looked too fakey, so even if your claims are true ones, I still definitely didn't act in a hypocritical manner.

Your formal/informal balance is fine from my observations. If anything I think your tone's weakness is not accurately reading and adjusting(I can't differentiate were the error is introduced) your tone based upon how your target is perceiving you. When you had friendly intentions but were being perceived as being antagonistic(bad word choice but I am tired) you stuck with the tone you had when you started to be perceived as being antagonistic. In moments like this I would have suggested adopting a more reconciliatory tone so that your friendly advice would again be perceived as friendly. (To be honest, I have seen this a few times with you)

So definitely not a hypocritical manner. But a manner in which the lesson you were trying to impart, when abstracted, would have benefited your delivery of that lesson.

PS: To be clear, you have an approach that has many good things going for it. I expect you would be able to incorporate this "adapting based on your observations of how you are being observed" into your existing approach. While this adaptation is a broad category, I suggest the primary focus be on observing when you are being perceived as friendly/opposition/neutral.



@Makasan
eggynack did have some good advice for you. If I were you, I would take this opportunity(having a bias against a series of posts but being informed by a trusty source that there is something valuable in there) to see if you can find the advice despite your bias.

[Zetapup]

If the main problem with two weapon fighting is getting hit after your full attack, there are a few ways to counteract that. I'll list off the ones I can think of off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are more.

The best way to avoid counterattacks is not being there in the first place. Travel Devotion and Sudden Leap work fairly well for this, and Training Dummy of the Master turns your five foot step into a ten foot step, which helps a little. The classic mobility items (chronocharm of the horizon walker and the anklets of translocation, iirc) also help, but they're limited on uses. Finally, there's my favorite, if obscure, source of movement: entomanothrope argent spider (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20030725a). +2 LA adjustment for a free action 30ft teleport every round, plus the other benefits you get from the template. That more or less gets rid of counterattacks, outside of readied actions.

The other main way to avoid counterattacks is to have solid defenses. A high AC plus a decent miss chance give you a solid chance of surviving the counterattack (off the top of my head, there are a couple magic items for miss chance (mithral mist shirt and blink shirt, if I'm remembering correctly) and also the shadow template). There's also the starmantle spell or starmantle cloak for a rogue. Expensive, but no damage from nonmagical weapons and a reflex save to avoid damage from magical ones? Heck yeah. Add in evasion, and you've got a darn good chance at surviving any physical combat.

I can't comment too much on spring attack, since I can't remember the last time I played a spring attack character, but that's my take on how to prevent counterattacks while two weapon fighting.

[eggynack]

Seems plausible. Not entirely sure what I'm being reconciliatory in reference to, but it could theoretically have some impact. I think the more general conclusion is that my all logic all the time approach is a potentially flawed one, but that's just a consequence of how my brain operates. Everything surrounding the hopefully accurate premises and resulting conclusion strikes me as a style thing more than anything.

[OldTrees1]

Seems plausible. Not entirely sure what I'm being reconciliatory in reference to, but it could theoretically have some impact. I think the more general conclusion is that my all logic all the time approach is a potentially flawed one, but that's just a consequence of how my brain operates. Everything surrounding the hopefully accurate premises and resulting conclusion strikes me as a style thing more than anything.

I don't see evidence for that general conclusion. You should keep the important part(logical premises -> conclusion).

The unfortunate thing about humans, which is only exacerbated in arguments on online forums like these, is that humans react to a bunch of social signals contained in that "style thing". As well as treat people that agreed with them with less skepticism than those that disagreed with them.

To say it another way:
Crunch(logical argument) is not mutable but Fluff(style thing/tone thing) is. The Fluff you choose impacts the biases your audience has for/against your Crunch.


PS: The Reconciliatory is in reference to correcting being seen as opposition. It is more important to show that you want to mend bridges than to actually identify and apologize for a cause of the lack of a bridge.

[eggynack]

I don't see evidence for that general conclusion. You should keep the important part(logical premises -> conclusion).
Well, sure, I'm not gonna start running fallacious logic and seeing what sticks. The point is that that stuff is occasionally in lieu of other stuff.


The unfortunate thing about humans, which is only exacerbated in arguments on online forums like these, is that humans react to a bunch of social signals contained in that "style thing". As well as treat people that agreed with them with less skepticism than those that disagreed with them.
Yeah, I've occasionally made use of that rhetorical line. Didn't really find the right opening for it here, because you really want an effective and topical point of commonality, and I don't recall one being present. If this thread doesn't wind up getting locked really soon, some other path will probably open up. From my way of seeing things, we're still pretty early in as far as weird argument threads go, and some time to let things develop is usually what provides the time to try some different approaches. Basically, whether it's effective or not, this current line of reasoning doesn't seem to have quite run its course yet, though that's partially because Masakan's responses have been a bit lacking in direction, for lack of a better phrase.

[Necroticplague]

Didn't read through anything past the OP, so please excuse me if some of my points have already been made:

1. Flitting among enemies using Spring Attack like that is actually more dangerous than just standing there and stabbing away, due to things called "Attacks of Opportunity". In my experience, trying to Spring Attack up to an enemy then back away usually ends up in getting tripped/grappled, and then very shortly killed after. Or you end up stumbling into a trap you didn't notice. Or an AoE persistent control effect because the enemy caster is actually doing their job. The system punishes mobility harshly.
2. You don't need Weapon Finesse for a rogue. That's just wasting a feat to have your damage and attack based off different stats, essentially lowering your attack, your damage, or both.
3.Charging+pouncing lets you get a full-attack from twice your land speed away, while Spring attack lets you do one if you're within your normal land speed. So actually, the TWF has a larger initiation range (and is thus arguably safer).
4.You can get SA from flanking, so Darkstalker, and sneaking up on the enemy, are both strictly optional. And both benefit from Distracting Ember just as much, so that's not a point in Spring Attack favor
5. Unless you're obscenely fast, Spring Attacking to run back and forth doesn't leave you much safer. If you Spring Attack up 15 feet, attack, and spring back 15 feet, you're withing the 5-foot-step-full-attack range of anyone with a reach weapon or who is Large. Or, you know, they make use of any of the free movement or pounce options available to end up full-attacking you anyway, rendering all of your mobility an (even more) moot point, with you in just as much danger as the TWF fighter, but without the damage to show for it. Which actually means they're in more danger, since the TWF can at least hope they kill the guy, but there's not much chance of 1-rounding a guy with Spring Attack. And if you're allowed to optimize to be faster than that, than it seems fair to expect enemies are going to be similarly optimized, and thus have more options to counter your mobility. Arguably, you're actually doing enemies a favor, by putting yourself far enough away that they can charge at you, and thus do more damage, instead of merely attack you.

[Masakan]

Didn't read through anything past the OP, so please excuse me if some of my points have already been made:

1. Flitting among enemies using Spring Attack like that is actually more dangerous than just standing there and stabbing away, due to things called "Attacks of Opportunity". In my experience, trying to Spring Attack up to an enemy then back away usually ends up in getting tripped/grappled, and then very shortly killed after. Or you end up stumbling into a trap you didn't notice. Or an AoE persistent control effect because the enemy caster is actually doing their job. The system punishes mobility harshly.
2. You don't need Weapon Finesse for a rogue. That's just wasting a feat to have your damage and attack based off different stats, essentially lowering your attack, your damage, or both.
3.Charging+pouncing lets you get a full-attack from twice your land speed away, while Spring attack lets you do one if you're within your normal land speed. So actually, the TWF has a larger initiation range (and is thus arguably safer).
4.You can get SA from flanking, so Darkstalker, and sneaking up on the enemy, are both strictly optional. And both benefit from Distracting Ember just as much, so that's not a point in Spring Attack favor
5. Unless you're obscenely fast, Spring Attacking to run back and forth doesn't leave you much safer. If you Spring Attack up 15 feet, attack, and spring back 15 feet, you're withing the 5-foot-step-full-attack range of anyone with a reach weapon or who is Large. Or, you know, they make use of any of the free movement or pounce options available to end up full-attacking you anyway, rendering all of your mobility an (even more) moot point, with you in just as much danger as the TWF fighter, but without the damage to show for it. Which actually means they're in more danger, since the TWF can at least hope they kill the guy, but there's not much chance of 1-rounding a guy with Spring Attack. And if you're allowed to optimize to be faster than that, than it seems fair to expect enemies are going to be similarly optimized, and thus have more options to counter your mobility. Arguably, you're actually doing enemies a favor, by putting yourself far enough away that they can charge at you, and thus do more damage, instead of merely attack you.

Regarding the 5th point because that one really interests me. If this is all true, why is it that swiftblade is considered on of the stronger prestige classes in the game? I'm not trying to prove a point I'm just curious.

[Flickerdart]

Spring Attack is butts, anyway. If you want to run around like a madman, go with either:

Fly-by Attack: The only prerequisite is a fly speed, and these can be absurdly big, not in the least because templates like half-fey straight up double your base speed. On top of that, it allows you to take a standard action instead of an attack, so you can activate a martial strike or cast a touch spell or use Dual Strike or what have you. Pick up the Improved version to get the no-AoO thing, or Great Flyby Attack to hit a lot of guys at once.
Ride-by Attack: Aside from wonky geometry issues with charging, this is great. It's even easier to get a super fast mount than a super-fast move speed, and you get all the benefits of charging (including double move speed).


If you can only have the crappy regular Spring Attack, at least make sure you can drop a fog cloud to hide in between spring attacks.

[Nihilarian]

Regarding the 5th point because that one really interests me. If this is all true, why is it that swiftblade is considered on of the stronger prestige classes in the game? I'm not trying to prove a point I'm just curious.it isn't.

And if it were one of the stronger PrC's classes in the game, it wouldn't be because of Spring Attack.

[Greenish]

If this is all true, why is it that swiftblade is considered on of the stronger prestige classes in the game?Swiftblade is considered one of the few PrCs almost worth the lost casting, because they get extra actions.

[Necroticplague]

Regarding the 5th point because that one really interests me. If this is all true, why is it that swiftblade is considered on of the stronger prestige classes in the game? I'm not trying to prove a point I'm just curious.

It's a good PRC, but not for granting Spring Attack or Bounding Assault for free. It's mostly for taking a good buff and making it even better. Perpetual Options, in particular, is dang potent. From the relevant point of view of this thread, it allows one to take a move action and still get off a full attack. Free action hast means no more worrying about having your buff removed, non-concealment miss chance is excellent (and for a lot of characters, frees up their shoulder slot), miss chance against spells is even better (though sadly, not against AoE), boost in initiative (which can be very important), freedom of movement from a lower slot, effective maximized Time Stop as a capstone. So yeah, the Swiftblade PRC is good because it gives you a lot of nice things, but the Spring Attack is pretty 'meh' among them.

[Masakan]

It's a good PRC, but not for granting Spring Attack or Bounding Assault for free. It's mostly for taking a good buff and making it even better. Perpetual Options, in particular, is dang potent. From the relevant point of view of this thread, it allows one to take a move action and still get off a full attack. Free action hast means no more worrying about having your buff removed, non-concealment miss chance is excellent (and for a lot of characters, frees up their shoulder slot), miss chance against spells is even better (though sadly, not against AoE), boost in initiative (which can be very important), freedom of movement from a lower slot, effective maximized Time Stop as a capstone. So yeah, the Swiftblade PRC is good because it gives you a lot of nice things, but the Spring Attack is pretty 'meh' among them.

So it's worth getting 2 feats that a lot of people consider garbage?

[Flickerdart]

So it's worth getting 2 feats that a lot of people consider garbage?
Most PrCs require garbage feats to enter. To a spellcaster, having a second standard action in a round is worth burning the feats.

[Necroticplague]

So it's worth getting 2 feats that a lot of people consider garbage?

Assuming no bonus feats, you get 7 feats over your career. So the cost is under 33% of one of your builds resources. In exchange, you get a 50% increase in another, much more precious resource: actions when it matter. What's more questionable is whether the CL loss is worth it. Bit on the steep side, but it might be, especially if someone is coming from a more martial based character than a caster based one(heck, they may be willing to lose another CL for the capstone).

[Masakan]

Assuming no bonus feats, you get 7 feats over your career. So the cost is under 33% of one of your builds resources. In exchange, you get a 50% increase in another, much more precious resource: actions when it matter. What's more questionable is whether the CL loss is worth it. Bit on the steep side, but it might be, especially if someone is coming from a more martial based character than a caster based one(heck, they may be willing to lose another CL for the capstone).
So you kinda have to build around them if you feel you have to take those feats. Meaning the only prestige classes worth them are swiftblade and imo heart-warder. Oh and you would get evasive target speaking of which, does Desert wind dodge work with Evasive target?

[Flickerdart]

Oh and you would get evasive target speaking of which, does Desert wind dodge work with Evasive target?
No. Desert Wind Dodge does not declare a target.

[Masakan]

No. Desert Wind Dodge does not declare a target.
SON OF A.....actually that's fine.

[Necroticplague]

Oh and you would get evasive target speaking of which, does Desert wind dodge work with Evasive target?

I don't know of an Evasive Target. I know of an Elusive Target feat, though. And desert wind dodge qualifies for it, but doesn't work with it (given how there's nobody that you designate for it, and it isn't actually Dodge itself).

[DarkSonic1337]

A swiftblade is more likely to take expeditious dodge over desert wind dodge actually.

Expeditious dodge gives you +2 AC for any round you move at least 40ft in, which is thematically appropriate for you.


I LOVE swiftblade. Action economy abuse, potent defenses, and a fair chasis all wrapped into one coherent theme. In my opinion it is one of the best DESIGNED prestige classes in the game.

But even my swiftblade took flyby attack :p (my DM ruled that you can use a standard action to perform a move action even with flyby attack's restrictions)

[Curmudgeon]

Spring Attack is awful and outside of prerequisites or flavor there is never a reason to take it, not with flight being so useful that everyone wants or even needs it. That puts the vastly superior and cheaper Flyby Attack on the table.
The bolded statement is incorrect.

Flyby Attack still provokes movement-related AoOs from the target unless you also gain Improved Flyby Attack (which requires all the prerequisites of Spring Attack and more). On the other hand, Spring Attack avoids movement AoOs and can be used by a flying character just fine.

If you've already got flight, Dodge, and Mobility, then Spring Attack is obviously cheaper than taking both Flyby Attack and Improved Flyby Attack. A flying Rogue who's dipped into Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight has already satisfied all the prerequisites for Spring Attack.

[Masakan]

The bolded statement is incorrect.

Flyby Attack still provokes movement-related AoOs from the target unless you also gain Improved Flyby Attack (which requires all the prerequisites of Spring Attack and more). On the other hand, Spring Attack avoids movement AoOs and can be used by a flying character just fine.

If you've already got flight, Dodge, and Mobility, then Spring Attack is obviously cheaper than taking both Flyby Attack and Improved Flyby Attack. A flying Rogue who's dipped into Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight has already satisfied all the prerequisites for Spring Attack.

Wow...did the resident expert just have my back? Sweet.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A skirmisher archetype is a fine approach, but- as has been mentioned- Spring Attack is not the best way to do it. It has a high feat cost (on top of whatever you need for offense) and relatively limited benefit- one attack/turn at all but the highest levels (and then only at the cost of more feats) with a relatively minor increase in distance between you and you foe. It's sort of like having a big reach, but only with standard-action attacks and at the cost of AoOs. (Which, admittedly, are easy to avoid with Tumble checks)

Spring Attack has the virtue of being core-only, and thus seen as simple. It also had the benefit of not slapping you with an extra - 2 to attack, which isn't always nice on a medium-BAB class. It works nicely with Skirmish, if you want to go that route. (A spring-attacking Swift Hunter build with Bounding Assault and Improved Skirmish wouldn't be too bad)

Overall, though, I can't recommend it. Especially not when there are so many better options. Flyby Attack is flat-out better, and costs a feat and a movement mode you wanted anyway. Travel Devotion is much more flexible (at minimum, you can move-action in, take a standard and swift-action out) and costs... anything from one (goody-filled) level to a feat and a PrC dip.

But more than that, I think you're setting up a false dichotomy. Everyone wants to be mobile, and everyone wants to do damage. The best builds combine the two- TWF and Travel Devotion. Maneuvers and Flyby Attack. Sudden Leap. Anklets of Translocation. And everyone will need defenses, above and beyond "I'm a few squares away now."

When you put it all together, Spring Attack winds up as a simple but ineffective way of doing what you want.


Edit:
Wow...did the resident expert just have my back? Sweet.
It's a moot point; AoOs are easy to avoid as a tumbling Rogue/other light-armor class.

[eggynack]

Wow...did the resident expert just have my back? Sweet.
Is your position that, in addition to prerequisites and flavor, the major utility of spring attack is that it happens to have a decent advantage, one partially balanced out by the disadvantage of being limited to attacks, if you already have both prerequisites for other reasons? If so, yes. A big part of the problem with spring attack is inevitably that it's crazy expensive for what it does. If you're getting around that disadvantage somehow, then it's not going to be quite as bad.

[Masakan]

Is your position that, in addition to prerequisites and flavor, the major utility of spring attack is that it happens to have a decent advantage, one partially balanced out by the disadvantage of being limited to attacks, if you already have both prerequisites for other reasons? If so, yes. A big part of the problem with spring attack is inevitably that it's crazy expensive for what it does. If you're getting around that disadvantage somehow, then it's not going to be quite as bad.

That's pretty much the long and short of it, and I won't deny it is very costly and often a headache, but rather than work around it. I kind of take the mindset of why not just make the best of a bad situation?
And get feats and prereq classes that have those as requirements anyway. Which is why i emphasized the feat Elusive target as well as make mention to the prereq classes Swiftblade and Heartwarder, and if for some CRAZY reason you need Combat Expertise, Dervish and Whirlwind attack are fairly decent to have around. Plus like Curmdragon said you need both dodge and mobility for improved Flyby attack anyway.

So it's less getting around it and more BUILDING around it.

[Curmudgeon]

Spring Attack has the virtue of being core-only, and thus seen as simple.
Flyby Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#flybyAttack) is also core-only (Monster Manual, page 303).

Edit:
It's a moot point; AoOs are easy to avoid as a tumbling Rogue/other light-armor class.
AoOs aren't always easy to avoid. A few extra minions on the way to your target could mean you either have to go around them and run short of movement, or have the Tumble DC boosted each time and not be able to make the DC to avoid the AoO from the last one (the tough enemy you're trying to take out). Spring Attack isn't iffy.

[eggynack]

AoOs aren't always easy to avoid. A few extra minions on the way to your target could mean you either have to go around them and run short of movement, or have the Tumble DC boosted each time and not be able to make the DC to avoid the AoO from the last one (the tough enemy you're trying to take out). Spring Attack isn't iffy.
I don't really see the relevance of other minions. Spring attack only prevents AoO's from the fellow you're attacking, so minions would get in the way of AoO avoidance with that feat as well.

[Masakan]

I don't really see the relevance of other minions. Spring attack only prevents AoO's from the fellow you're attacking, so minions would get in the way of AoO avoidance with that feat as well.
Just so we are clear on something, you are aware that spring attack doesn't work like a charge right? Also I would imagine that because of how spring attack works you would make an effort to boost your speed as much as possible.

[Greenish]

AoOs aren't always easy to avoid. A few extra minions on the way to your target could mean you either have to go around them and run short of movement, or have the Tumble DC boosted each time and not be able to make the DC to avoid the AoO from the last one (the tough enemy you're trying to take out). Spring Attack isn't iffy.Of course, if there're two strong opponents and you can't make the DC, you still risk provoking the one you don't target.


If you're just delivering touch attack spells, Spring Attack might be better though, since you can cast away from the target and avoid needing Concentration checks. Kinda niche though.

[Necroticplague]

Just so we are clear on something, you are aware that spring attack doesn't work like a charge right? Also I would imagine that because of how spring attack works you would make an effort to boost your speed as much as possible.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by the first point?

[Nihilarian]

The bolded statement is incorrect.

Flyby Attack still provokes movement-related AoOs from the target unless you also gain Improved Flyby Attack (which requires all the prerequisites of Spring Attack and more). On the other hand, Spring Attack avoids movement AoOs and can be used by a flying character just fine.

If you've already got flight, Dodge, and Mobility, then Spring Attack is obviously cheaper than taking both Flyby Attack and Improved Flyby Attack. A flying Rogue who's dipped into Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight has already satisfied all the prerequisites for Spring Attack.It says something that in the best case scenario for Spring Attack, when you already have all the prerequisites due to arbitrarily choosing a prestige class that has the same prerequisites, the advantage it has against Flyby Attack is still slim to non-existant. Tumble allows you to get around AoO without taking another feat, and if you have any use for your standard actions other than attacking with a melee attack - wands (or spells in general if you dip a caster), maneuvers, breath weapons, ranged attacks - Spring Attack doesn't help.

Also, as has been pointed out, Spring Attack only prevents the target's AoO. Against anyone else, he's in the same boat as the Flyby Attack guy. Except that he doesn't even have the option of taking a feat and not needing to worry about it anymore.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't really see the relevance of other minions. Spring attack only prevents AoO's from the fellow you're attacking, so minions would get in the way of AoO avoidance with that feat as well.
Grod_The_Giant's assumption is that you've budgeted enough Tumble skill to avoid movement AoOs. However, that budgeting has to be based on a guess of the number of opponents you're trying to Tumble around. You'd still be able to avoid movement AoOs from all the enemies up to the budgeted allowance, so most (maybe all) of those minions wouldn't get AoOs. Also, as minions, their attacks should be weak. It's the AoO from the main target that's important, and that's where the Tumble DC would be out of reach because of those minions along the route.

[Masakan]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by the first point?
I'm just trying to make sure people know you don't have to go in a straight line with spring attack, maybe im wrong but it seems like that's the general notion, Otherwise wouldn't it be simple to just hit and back away like 15ft step up and 15 back or just drive by them and you know avoid anyone you could provoke an AoO with?

[Flickerdart]

Flyby Attack still provokes movement-related AoOs from the target unless you also gain Improved Flyby Attack (which requires all the prerequisites of Spring Attack and more). On the other hand, Spring Attack avoids movement AoOs and can be used by a flying character just fine.
Improved Flyby Attack only requires Mobility on top of Flyby Attack, which can be gained off armour (unless you're one of those people who hates the idea of item-based prerequisite meeting).

[OldTrees1]

I'm just trying to make sure people know you don't have to go in a straight line with spring attack, maybe im wrong but it seems like that's the general notion, Otherwise wouldn't it be simple to just hit and back away like 15ft step up and 15 back or just drive by them and you know avoid anyone you could provoke an AoO with?

A general formation in D&D would have weaker points(not no AoOs, just fewer AoO). However it takes a lot of movement to get there and back (which implies that your "back" is closer to their big guns than if you went straight-ish). So generally investing more in Tumble pays off better than trying to circle around the formation.

[Necroticplague]

I'm just trying to make sure people know you don't have to go in a straight line with spring attack, maybe im wrong but it seems like that's the general notion, Otherwise wouldn't it be simple to just hit and back away like 15ft step up and 15 back or just drive by them and you know avoid anyone you could provoke an AoO with?

Diagonals cost 1.5 squares. You aren't exactly gonna have much room to maneuver unless your speed is obscenely high. But at the point at which your speed is high enough, it's (probably more than) compensated for by foes with larger reach, meaning you have to go farther around around people.

I addressed the "15 feet forward and 15 feet back" already. That puts you within both the 5-foot-step-full-attack range of many (anyone with a reach weapon or natural reach) AND charging range of all enemies. That is literally the least safe range you can have.

Reach is so relatively easy to improve, that the amount you'd have to maneuver around to avoid AoO's with a Spring Attack is incredibly large compared to any amount of speed you could get for a reasonable investment.

[Masakan]

Improved Flyby Attack only requires Mobility on top of Flyby Attack, which can be gained off armour (unless you're one of those people who hates the idea of item-based prerequisite meeting).

You have to assume a lot of people are and as I stated earlier, if you happen to lose the armor you enchanted for some reason what then? Sure you could probably buy another one, but you would probably be dead before you got the chance if it happened mid battle.
IDK maybe the chance of that happening is lower than I would think.


Diagonals cost 1.5 squares. You aren't exactly gonna have much room to maneuver unless your speed is obscenely high. But at the point at which your speed is high enough, it's (probably more than) compensated for by foes with larger reach, meaning you have to go farther around around people.

I addressed the "15 feet forward and 15 feet back" already. That puts you within both the 5-foot-step-full-attack range of many (anyone with a reach weapon or natural reach) AND charging range of all enemies. That is literally the least safe range you can have.

Reach is so relatively easy to improve, that the amount you'd have to maneuver around to avoid AoO's with a Spring Attack is incredibly large compared to any amount of speed you could get for a reasonable investment.

I never said that it would be or should be your only option, a good adventurer would have a fallback in case something they rely on doesn't work. Sadly that privilege is usually limited to those in either the magical or the ToB variety.
I never mentioned this because it has little bearing on the general topic, but I personally think that when ToB is on the table, the rules or notions of the game in general tend to change drastically, and tactics that would normally be subpar will be made to be viable, or at least less sucky.

[dascarletm]

Are we assuming that we have a flanking partner for all of this?

If so, consider that the target will probably just keep engaging/killing them while you are flying around. It does force your target to attack your partner, but if you can find another way to force your ally to be a preferred target over yourself then TWF would be better.

[Curmudgeon]

Improved Flyby Attack only requires Mobility on top of Flyby Attack, which can be gained off armour (unless you're one of those people who hates the idea of item-based prerequisite meeting).
You appear to have overlooked the Dodge prerequisite.

[Masakan]

Are we assuming that we have a flanking partner for all of this?

If so, consider that the target will probably just keep engaging/killing them while you are flying around. It does force your target to attack your partner, but if you can find another way to force your ally to be a preferred target over yourself then TWF would be better.

No because darting in all by yourself is a WONDERFUL idea!
Of course you would have a flanking partner, who would be stupid enough to go in alone?!

[Flickerdart]

You have to assume a lot of people are and as I stated earlier, if you happen to lose the armor you enchanted for some reason what then? Sure you could probably buy another one, but you would probably be dead before you got the chance if it happened mid battle.
IDK maybe the chance of that happening is lower than I would think.
How often do you lose your armour in the middle of a battle?

[Masakan]

How often do you lose your armour in the middle of a battle?

Acid's a thing dude.

[OldTrees1]

You have to assume a lot of people are and as I stated earlier, if you happen to lose the armor you enchanted for some reason what then? Sure you could probably buy another one, but you would probably be dead before you got the chance if it happened mid battle.
IDK maybe the chance of that happening is lower than I would think.

The chances are lower than you think and the penalty in the case of Flyby Attack (roll some more Tumble checks a round) is much lower than the penalty in the case of Spring Attack(which is your baseline for concern I am guessing).

Targeted Dispel Magic only temporarily(1d4 rounds) removes Mobility. So it is recovered automatically.
Sunder is quite hard against level appropriate magical armor and is usually better aimed at the weapon. Also remember your goal with Flyby/Spring Attack is to only get hit via Readied Actions so your chances of being hit with a Sunder are lower.

I did not list Acid or Rust Monsters because level appropriate armor is usually immune to those effects. (Dungeonscape IIRC)

[Grod_The_Giant]

You have to assume a lot of people are and as I stated earlier, if you happen to lose the armor you enchanted for some reason what then? Sure you could probably buy another one, but you would probably be dead before you got the chance if it happened mid battle.

That's... Probably true regardless of whether or not you have a feat that depends on your armor? You're also only down a single feat with Flyby Attack, so the rest of your build should still function just fine.

Also, Spring Attack specifically states that you provoke other enemies. It only protects you against the guy you're attacking.

[Deophaun]

Acid's a thing dude.

Blueshine. Costs 1,500.

[iDesu]

How often do you lose your armour in the middle of a battle?

Wouldn't a dispel be able to temporarily make your armor non-magical? It looks like it would only disable it for 1d4 rounds though, probably not a good use of dispel just to remove mobility.

[Greenish]

Acid's a thing dude.Elaborate. What sort of acid is going to eat off your magic armour, and if it's a common worry, why didn't you make your armour immune to acid?


Sunder is quite hard against level appropriate magical armor and is usually better aimed at the weapon.Sunder is hard even against non-magical armour because you can't sunder armour someone's actually wearing.

[Necroticplague]

I never said that it would be or should be your only option, a good adventurer would have a fallback in case something they rely on doesn't work. Sadly that privilege is usually limited to those in either the magical or the ToB variety.

I never mentioned this because it has little bearing on the general topic, but I personally think that when ToB is on the table, the rules or notions of the game in general tend to change drastically, and tactics that would normally be subpar will be made to be viable, or at least less sucky.

The thing is, because of the investment requires for Spring Attack, it should be significantly more reliable than the incredibly common situation of "Foe is capable of charging, or has good reach".

Actually, you have mentioned it before. Several times.

[Masakan]

Wouldn't a dispel be able to temporarily make your armor non-magical? It looks like it would only disable it for 1d4 rounds though, probably not a good use of dispel just to remove mobility.

Here's the thing though, If your have the mobility enchant on your armor and it gets dispelled, doesn't that disable any and all feats and benifits associated with it since it's a requirement? If it doesn't then by all means get the enchantment...but if it does.....

[OldTrees1]

Wouldn't a dispel be able to temporarily make your armor non-magical? It looks like it would only disable it for 1d4 rounds though, probably not a good use of dispel just to remove mobility.

It takes a Targeted Dispel so they might also be trying to get rid of your Buff stack.


Here's the thing though, If your have the mobility enchant on your armor and it gets dispelled, doesn't that disable any and all feats and benifits associated with it since it's a requirement? If it doesn't then by all means get the enchantment...but if it does.....

One could probably handle the ~2.5 rounds without Mobility. If they were taking the Flyby Option then it is only roughly 5 more tumble checks total.


Sunder is hard even against non-magical armour because you can't sunder armour someone's actually wearing.

Huh?! I trust you are correct but that does sound very weird.

[Greenish]

Here's the thing though, If your have the mobility enchant on your armor and it gets dispelled, doesn't that disable any and all feats and benifits associated with it since it's a requirement? If it doesn't then by all means get the enchantment...but if it does.....You can't use feats you don't have the prerequisites for. Which is a minor annoyance for all of 1d4 rounds of Dispel Magic, if for some reason your enemy decides to hit you with a targeted one.

[Necroticplague]

Here's the thing though, If your have the mobility enchant on your armor and it gets dispelled, doesn't that disable any and all feats and benifits associated with it since it's a requirement? If it doesn't then by all means get the enchantment...but if it does.....

Any round they waste temporarily dispelling your armor is a round they aren't using to do actually damaging things. And to quote yourself


a good adventurer would have a fallback in case something they rely on doesn't work.

[Masakan]

You can't use feats you don't have the prerequisites for. Which is a minor annoyance for all of 1d4 rounds of Dispel Magic, if for some reason your enemy decides to hit you with a targeted one.

Hmm. It was just something a DM of mine brought up, because he said "It's not You who knows the feat but the armor" I still question whether I would actually take the risk.

[Deophaun]

It takes a Targeted Dispel so they might also be trying to get rid of your Buff stack.

It would have to be a targeted dispel on the armor. A targeted dispel on the character doesn't touch magical item effects.

And if an enemy spellcaster is using his standard action to dispel your Mobility enhancement, you thank him for not having put any points into Knowledge (tactics).

[iDesu]

Huh?! I trust you are correct but that does sound very weird.

"You can’t sunder armor worn by another character." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#sunder)

So you can sunder worn objects, just not armor

[Masakan]

Question! Does Clothing Count as armor for the sake of enchanting?

[Greenish]

As I've said, if you lose your magical items somehow, you're probably screwed even if all of your feats still work.

[EDIT]:
"You can’t sunder armor worn by another character." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#sunder)Amusingly, you could still sunder your own armour.

[Deophaun]

Question! Does Clothing Count as armor for the sake of enchanting?

Generally, yes. There's also bracers of armor that you can put named enhancements on.

[iDesu]

Question! Does Clothing Count as armor for the sake of enchanting?

I don't believe so. I know Magic Vestment specifies that clothing counts as armor for the purpose of the spell, which sounds like a case of specific trumping general there.

[OldTrees1]

It would have to be a targeted dispel on the armor. A targeted dispel on the character doesn't touch magical item effects.

And if an enemy spellcaster is using his standard action to dispel your Mobility enhancement, you thank him for not having put any points into Knowledge (tactics).


"You can’t sunder armor worn by another character." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#sunder)

So you can sunder worn objects, just not armor
Ok, so to lose your armor:
It can't be sundered
It is immune to rust and acid
It is vulnerable to a Targeted Dispel, but such a dispel effects nothing else?
Wow. Armor based bonuses are practically invincible!



Question! Does Clothing Count as armor for the sake of enchanting?

Yes, but see Gnome Twist Cloth from Races of Stone for a strictly better option

[Masakan]

Ok, so to lose your armor:
It can't be sundered
It is immune to rust and acid
It is vulnerable to a Targeted Dispel, but such a dispel effects nothing else?
Wow. Armor based bonuses are practically invincible!


Or at the very least not worth the energy to worry about, unless your DM is specifically trying to screw you over.

But you know...knowing my clothing can be enchanted actually gives me an idea.

[Greenish]

Ok, so to lose your armor:
It can't be sundered
It is immune to rust and acid
It is vulnerable to a Targeted Dispel, but such a dispel effects nothing else?
Wow. Armor based bonuses are practically invincible!To be fair, getting the immunity to rust and acid does cost a bit. Probably far less than the armour you're trying to protect, but still. I seem to recall the ol' wizards thread on armour specials dismissed Blueshine as "only useful if you want to be shiny". I usually cough up the money right after getting the first +1, but how common that is I can't tell.


And of course there's Disjunction. :smallamused:

[Deophaun]

Ok, so to lose your armor:
It can't be sundered
It is immune to rust and acid
It is vulnerable to a Targeted Dispel, but such a dispel effects nothing else?
Wow. Armor based bonuses are practically invincible!

I don't get where it's immune to rust and acid. It can be made to be immune to those things with a modest outlay of gold, but by default, a +5 suit of plate is lunch to a rust monster.

EDIT: Oh snap. Durable armor from Dungeonscape. A third of the cost of blueshine, and the only downside seems to be you don't get the bonus to Hide checks. No excuse not to have it if you're worried about that kind of stuff.

[dascarletm]

No because darting in all by yourself is a WONDERFUL idea!
Of course you would have a flanking partner, who would be stupid enough to go in alone?!

Someone relying on stealth to achieve sneak attacks, or feints or invisibility...


Killing a target quickly is top priority with a flanking buddy, that makes spring attack seem far less desirable.

[Necroticplague]

Someone relying on stealth to achieve sneak attacks, or feints or invisibility...

Oh who's horrendously resilient/hard to hit enough to survive the retribution......

[Masakan]

Oh who's horrendously resilient/hard to hit enough to survive the retribution......
If your that sturdy and difficult to hit it's highly likely you wouldn't have the dex for the tree anyway.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't believe so. I know Magic Vestment specifies that clothing counts as armor for the purpose of the spell, which sounds like a case of specific trumping general there.
Items in the Body and Arms slots may have armor bonuses added as common effects; see Magic Item Compendium on page 234. Examples of standard items with armor bonuses include Robe of the Archmagi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#robeoftheArchmagi) and Bracers of Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bracersofArmor). The robe included as part of the Scholar's Outfit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#scholarsOutfit) can be enhanced in this way. So yes, outside of Magic Vestment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicVestment.htm), there is rules support for ordinary clothing to count as armor. It just doesn't count as armor until it's got that AC bonus (or enhancement to AC bonus in the case of Magic Vestment) applied.

[dascarletm]

Mirror Image/Displacement make you fairly resilient by virtue of not taking many hits.

[iDesu]

Does it actually count as armor or just a wondrous item that gives an armor bonus? Because if it counts as armor then wouldn't monks lose their their ac bonus, flurry, and speed while wearing bracers of armor?

Edit: Lost my train of thought, I don't know why I thought that was relevant to enchanting non-armor.

[Masakan]

Does it actually count as armor or just a wondrous item that gives an armor bonus? Because if it counts as armor then wouldn't monks lose their their ac bonus, flurry, and speed while wearing bracers of armor?

Edit: Lost my train of thought, I don't know why I thought that was relevant to enchanting non-armor.

I would see how but you know. Knowing that armor enchants can be enchanted on clothing without penalty Gives me an idea, and a pretty hilarious one at that.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Ok, so to lose your armor:
It can't be sundered
It is immune to rust and acid
It is vulnerable to a Targeted Dispel, but such a dispel effects nothing else?
Wow. Armor based bonuses are practically invincible!


Except that using a Chain Spell with a targeted Dispel Magic on you and all your magic items at the same time is a very viable tactic for mid-level spellcasters.
A level 10 caster can get 4 people and 6 items even without CL boosts, and dispelling weapons and armor is pretty obvious for target selection.
It's almost guaranteed to succeed unless you have taken precautions, because most magic items have rather low caster levels and boosting dispel checks is pretty cheap.

If that doesn't happen in your group you're correct though, but the same can be said for any weakness.
I certainly make use of Dispel Magic when i DM and the party comes up against spellcasters, because "take their magic away" is a rather obvious solution when a band of blinged out murderhobos crashes your cave/castle/dungeon and proceeds to murder your family/friends/minions, if you have the capability.

[Flickerdart]

If you're hit by a Chain Dispel, you have many more problems to worry about than "my Flyby Attack now provokes."

[Deophaun]

If your that sturdy and difficult to hit it's highly likely you wouldn't have the dex for the tree anyway.

High Dex, no-armor characters can have the highest AC precisely because clothing can be enchanted as armor. After all, a monk's outfit lacks a max Dex bonus.

[Necroticplague]

Meh. +1 Spellblade Poisoned Ring/armor spike/armor razor/braid blade/boot lade/sleeve blade/wrist blade easily counter that possibility for not too much money. And lets you bounce it right back at them.

[Deophaun]

Meh. +1 Spellblade Poisoned Ring/armor spike/armor razor/braid blade/boot lade/sleeve blade/wrist blade easily counter that possibility for not too much money. And lets you bounce it right back at them.

At best, the spellblade will make you immune to dispel magic, but it won't make your equipment immune.

[Necroticplague]

At best, the spellblade will make you immune to dispel magic, but it won't make your equipment immune.

A Chained Dispel magic does effect you, though, so it would catch that. And if they don't want to chain it, well, they're free to waste their actions disabling one piece of equipment while I pound on therm.

[Deophaun]

A Chained Dispel magic does effect you, though
There is nothing in either the Chain Spell feat or dispel magic that requires a Chained dispel to target a creature.

Meanwhile, I've found suddenly turning off my opponent's magic items to be very useful when I had a necromancer facing off against a CoDzilla who thought his armor enhancements meant I couldn't suck his levels down to 0. (It was also his first run-in with dweomer vortex, which is why I didn't bother targeting him with the dispel proper).

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Locked for review.